Thru the Bible - Questions & Answers

Guest (Male): We live in a day of muggings and murder, robbery and riots. So, what are we to do? Resist not evil or stand up and fight. Well, stay with us and find out.

Song: Oh, firm foundation, ye saints of the Lord, is laid for your faith in His excellent word.

Guest (Male): You're listening to the Question & Answer program with our Bible teacher Dr. J. Vernon McGee, and this program is a ministry of the Thru the Bible Radio Network. Now, our first question today turns us to the Book of Revelation. The listener writes, "My Sunday school teacher and I have recently had a disagreement concerning the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation chapter 7 and chapter 14.

I said that these passages referred to one and the same group. My teacher and many others said that they are two different groups. I've been through many Bible studies and conferences. I've been through your five-year program three times, and I've done a lot of reading, but I've never heard this position before. Could you please explain your position on this issue and how you came to that perspective?"

Dr. J. Vernon McGee: Well, may I say to you that it's strange to me that you've been going through the Bible three times, and you don't know my viewpoint on it. That's the question I'd like for you to answer why you do not know how I feel about it.

Now, I want to say this, that maybe the teaching influenced you a little because the viewpoint that you hold is exactly the viewpoint I hold. That is, I believe that they are this very same group. I cannot accept the viewpoint that they're two different groups, and I know that there are those today that take that position. And, very frankly, I do not think that they could be to begin with.

Here are two groups that are mentioned, and they are 144,000 is in the first one. And, in the second one, it's 144,000. And, it'd be pretty difficult to try to make out that there are two different groups when you're in one book here, and you seem to be following a very logical and chronological account of the future.

It'd be difficult. Now, if he'd said that there were 143,999 in one group, you might be justified in saying, "Well, let's find out who this other group is," but it's the same number. Now, I want to turn to my book on Revelation, and I want to read what I have on this, and I have a note on the 14th chapter, and I'd like to read the remarks that we have here before we begin the detailed study.

Chapter 14 now is the Lamb on Mount Zion and with the 144,000. Now, this chapter constitutes a hiatus in the series of seven performers. It is obvious that this interlude could not be fitted in between the sixth and seventh performers who are the two wild beasts. They had to be considered together as they are like Siamese twins, and the continuity between them could not be broken.

Now, I need to clarify that statement because you'd have to know what goes before. In the Book of Revelation, after the Church leaves the Earth, and you begin in chapter 4, you have a continued series of sevens. And, the method by which John presents them is to give you six, like six seals. Then, he has an interlude, and he brings in something else that fits into the Great Tribulation Period, and then he gives the seventh seal, and the seventh always leads into the next series of sevens.

And, you have seven trumpets, and six of them are given, and then an interlude. And, then the seventh is blown. Then, you have seven persons that are presented to us, back in chapters 12 and 13 here of Revelation. Now, when we got to the sixth person, which was the beast out of the sea, well, when he got to the seventh beast, he didn't put in an interlude there, and the reason was that the first beast and the second beast go together, as we've said. They're really like Siamese twins.

Therefore, when he got to 14, he gave us the interlude. Now, this interlude follows the seventh performer in recognition of the logical sequence of this book, which is not a hodgepodge of visions, but unfolds in a logical, chronological, and mathematical order. Now, certain performers are called to our attention in this chapter to give a full orb view of the spectacular events of the previous chapter.

It's clear from chapter 13 that this is the darkest day and the most horrible hour in history. It is truly Hell's holiday. Every thoughtful mind must inevitably ask the question, "How did God's people fare during this period? Could they make it through to the end with the overwhelming odds against them?"

Now, before we had 144,000, 12,000 out of each tribe of Israel sealed. Now, the question is, did any of them get lost? Did they make it through this period? That's a question to raise at this point, and now we see them here. The Shepherd who began with the 144,000 sheep, he's now identified with them because he's also a Lamb. He's the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world, and he's seen in Heaven as a Lamb.

Because, back in the fourth chapter, they wanted to be hidden from the wrath of the Lamb, dwellers on the Earth. Now, here he is with 144,000. You know, he told about a shepherd and a hundred sheep, and one little old sheep got lost, and he just left the 99 in the fold and went out and got this last little sheep because he came through with a hundred.

And, I think that the parable he gave illustrates the Church. I think here, it certainly gives us an interpretation that actually, you have now 144,001 because the Lamb of God is here with the sheep. What a picture that we have, and what does it mean? He didn't lose one, for he redeemed them, and he's going to have the last word.

These people made it through. Babylon will fall, and the followers of the beast will be judged. Many of his own became martyrs, but they did not lose. They won. It was John Calvin who said, he said, "I would rather lose now and win later than to win now and lose later." And, that, may I say, is exactly what's being told us here.

Their works follow them, you see. The Lamb is returning to the Earth. The morning is coming. The darkness will fade away, and the Son of Righteousness will arise with healing in his wings. Now, let's look at this verse that we believe is identified as the first 144,000. This is verse 1 of chapter 14.

"And I saw and behold the Lamb standing on the Mount Zion, and with him 144,000, having his name, and the name of his Father written on their foreheads." Now, will you notice this, it says, "And I saw." Now, that indicates that John is still the spectator to these events. And, the reel continues to roll, and the story continues to unfold.

You remember that he was given that scroll, and the Lamb here is none other than the Lord Jesus. There are a dozen references to him here in this book. And, I'll not turn to those. Mount Zion is at Jerusalem, and verse 1 pictures the placid and pastoral scene which opens the Millennial Kingdom. He's going to have the 144,000 with him there. And, you remember the Father said back in Psalm 2:6, "Yet have I set my King upon my holy hill of Zion."

Now, will you listen to the comment that I've made? The 144,000, we believe to be the one sealed in chapter 7. Although there are some problems connected with this view. They came through the Great Tribulation like the three Hebrew children came through the fiery furnace. Notice that the Lamb is standing with them on Mount Zion.

Although he is in his person, the Lamb, he's also the Shepherd. He started out with 144,000, and when he has come through the Great Tribulation, he does not have 143,999. He has 144,000. In this hour when the pressure of Satan bears us down, the living, victorious Christ is available to us today.

What a message there is in this tremendous passage of Scripture.

Guest (Male): Our next question comes to us from a listener who hears us on station WFIA in Louisville, Kentucky. He writes, "Matthew chapter 5, verse 39 says that we are to resist not evil. Does this mean that a man should not defend his home or his family?"

Dr. J. Vernon McGee: No, I don't think it means that at all. The thing is that today, the liberal has majored in the Sermon on the Mount, and this verse you give is in a part of what is called the Sermon on the Mount. However, Dr. Luke says that the Lord Jesus gave it down on the plain also.

So, it could be the Sermon on the Plain as well as Sermon on the Mount, but we know it as that because it's Matthew 5, 6, and 7. Now, obviously, that the Lord Jesus at this particular time was not talking to any program for the Church. He was putting down the great principles that are going to prevail in his Kingdom because at this particular time, he's talking about the Kingdom.

And, that Kingdom is yet future that he shall establish here upon the Earth, and these are the great principles that shall prevail at that particular time. And, the liberal, as we've indicated, has preached on this as being actually the Gospel, and there's no Gospel in the Sermon on the Mount. It wasn't intended for that at all.

It's always well to understand what a portion of Scripture in, what the meaning of it is, what the purpose of it is, and all that sort of thing, and if you apply some of the principles for studying the Word of God that we've been giving, or probably I should say, we shall be giving shortly, and I'm sure that we've already started it on our Through the Bible program.

And, we need to recognize always, not only what is said in Scripture, but to whom it's addressed. And, then we can put out a rule. It goes something like this. All Scripture is for us, but all Scripture is not to us. Now, the Sermon on the Mount is the law of the Kingdom, at least a portion of it, that will prevail when Christ reigns.

And, when he reigns upon this Earth, then you can resist evil. And, somebody says, "Well, he meant it for all time." No, he didn't. He gave a parable like this. A strong man armed is able to resist evil, is able to protect his goods. He told about a king that prepared to go to battle. He told his own when they went out the first time, "Don't take any script or protection or sword with you," but he says, "Now, when you go out, I want you to take the protection that you'll need. Take a sword with you."

So, that we need to hold Scripture in perspective and balance, and not lift a verse out like this and try to make application of it for today, but this is applicable to the time that the Kingdom is established. And, so he's not reigning today. Now, the thing is that many portions of the Sermon on the Mount are like that.

Now, all Scripture is for us, but it's not to us, you see. Now, it's for us. There's a great principle that is there, and that great principle, I think, is this. Instead of attempting to resist evil to the nth degree, why, we should attempt to win the fellow to the Lord. I know that where I was holding a meeting, some teenage boys came in, and two of them grabbed the money that was for the book table.

And, they left with it, and apparently there was a couple hundred dollars there, at least. And, when I heard about it, why, the police were out looking for them and all that sort of thing, and they finally after I left, sometime after I left, they found out who the boys were, and I thought it was a very fine thing that the police went there, but went there with two members of the Church, and the two members of the Church attempted to win these two boys to the Lord.

And, the father of the boys was greatly moved by it, and apparently, accepted Christ as his Savior, and the boys did too. And, these two men said, "We'll drop charges if you just return the money." And, the father immediately got the money together. Apparently, the boys had stored it away somewhere, and it was returned.

Now, that is, I think, the principle that is involved for us today. Sure, we're to lock the door, but if the thief breaks in in spite of that and we can win him for the Lord, why, let's do that, you see. There's a great principle there, but to say that we're under that, I think, is a sad mistake today. And, of course, I personally think that preaching the Sermon on the Mount as the way to be saved has made more hypocrites today than probably anything else.

Guest (Male): We turn now to a question from a listener in Wooster, Ohio, who says, "What is your understanding of Isaiah chapter 26, verse 20? It seems to me that it's making a reference to the Rapture. I even heard one pastor interpret it in such a manner. What do you think?"

Dr. J. Vernon McGee: Let me say that if certain simple principles of Bible interpretation were applied today, we wouldn't have all of this fuzzy thinking and wild interpretations of Scripture. Now, the Church is not in the Old Testament as such. There are pictures of it, there are figures of it.

Now, I believe that when you say that the Church is not in the Old Testament, then when you find a verse of Scripture in Isaiah that you think that you can twist it around somehow or another, that you're going to make it applicable to the Rapture of the Church. Well, you just can't do that.

Now, I want to turn to Isaiah 26, and I'll take not only Isaiah 26:20, but these last verses there.

"Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers and shut thy doors about thee, hide thyself as it were for a little moment until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the Earth for their iniquity, the Earth also shall disclose her blood and shall no more cover her slain."

Now, the fact of the matter is, he's been talking in this chapter about the restoration of Israel and the worship of Israel after the Church is removed from the Earth. And, so when he says, "Come, my people," he's talking to a certain people. And, who's he been talking about in Isaiah 26? In fact, who's he been talking about in all of Isaiah? It's been Israel, you see.

So, don't try to say now all of a sudden he's changed and he's not talking to the Church. He's not talking to the Church, and he's not talking about the Rapture. He's telling these people, "They're going to go through this time of trouble," and he says, "I want you to hide yourself." You see, during the time of the Great Tribulation, there are going to be 144,000 witnesses.

And, there's going to be a great company of people saved, and a great many of them are going to hide themselves because they're going through the Great Tribulation. This has no reference at all to the Rapture of the Church. And, then it speaks of the Lord coming. Coming when? At the end of the Great Tribulation to establish his Kingdom here upon this Earth.

So, that you've got an altogether different situation here, and I'm very sorry that my brother and very good friend took the interpretation to mean the Rapture of the Church because I know that he's a very excellent preacher. But, I guess that they all can't agree with me, and so we just have to hope that they will all see like I see.

But, the interesting thing is, someday we're all going to be in agreement, and not only will they be changed, but I'm going to be changed too. And, so, may I say to you that maybe we ought not to be so dogmatic in certain areas, but I do know that this particular passage of Scripture is a repetition of actually what he's been saying in this chapter here, and in view of it, he tells the people to hide themselves.

Guest (Male): Hebrews chapter 11, verse 6 says, "For he who comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him." So, this listener in Lubbock, Texas, asks, "Could you please explain the meaning of this verse?"

Dr. J. Vernon McGee: May I say to you that the early Church had a great conviction concerning God. Conviction that is apparently absent in most of our churches today, even our so-called conservative churches. I have a feeling that we are not as sure as the early Church was. You remember when Peter was arrested and threatened, and he returned to the Church.

And, when he did, why, they were in prayer, in prayer for him. You talk about the early Church being perfect, it wasn't perfect by any means. They believed that God had heard and answered their prayer and delivered Simon Peter, but when he appeared at the gate and wanted to get in, a little servant girl came and told him, they didn't believe their prayer had been answered, but it had been answered, you see.

Now, they went to prayer then for the Church and the future of the Church. And, they began and said, "Oh Lord, Thou who art God." What a conviction they had that the one that they were praying to, the one that they were worshipping was God. I get the feeling today actually in some groups, conservative, with all of their rules and regulations, with all the ritual that they have going on, all of the programs that they have.

I have a very strange feeling that this is a tremendous organization that they believe in God, but not too much. We've got to bend every effort here and must keep these organizations going and in order to keep the cause of Christ going. Somehow or another, there is not a conviction that, "Oh Lord, Thou art God."

You see. And, so when the writer to the Hebrews said that, "For he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." And, that means, friends, that actually, if you're not convinced that God is out there, you're not convinced that you're talking to him, your prayer is nothing in the world but foolish gibberish that has no meaning whatsoever.

And, all that you do amounts to nothing at all, and the important thing the writer to the Hebrews says, "When you come to God, you must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." This is a great statement that you have mentioned here. May I say to you, "For he that cometh to God must believe that he is," that he exists, that he's out there.

And, that he is not only Lord and God, but he will reward those that diligently seek him. And, all the time, everywhere we go and whatever we do, we ought to take him, look to him constantly as we go along. That's such a tremendous statement there. I've just barely touched the fringe of it.

Guest (Male): We hope that today's program has moved you to search the scriptures for the answer to your own questions. To assist you in your search, we have a resource catalog listing a number of excellent materials by Dr. McGee that we make available. Now, we'd also like to encourage you to join us this week on the Thru the Bible Radio program heard Monday through Friday on this station.

Join us on the Bible Bus as we roll through the pages of scripture, book by book and chapter by chapter. If you'd like to be on the mailing list for the notes and outlines that go along with that study, or to ask for our catalog, just call 1-800-65 Bible anytime, or write to Questions & Answers. In the US, box 7100, Pasadena, California, 91109. In Canada, box 25325, London, Ontario, N6C 6B1.

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Song: Jesus paid it all. All to Him I owe. Sin had left a crimson stain, he washed it white.

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