Somebody Loves You

Raul Ries: There is another thing. Your husband dies, you get a divorce, what do you do? I tell women and guys, if you're going to get remarried, get married to who? To a Christian. Then if she dies, a Christian, right? Then he says if you have the gift, don't get married. So God gives us the escape where we can't get ourselves in trouble.

Guest (Male): Welcome to Somebody Loves You Radio, the Bible teaching ministry of Raul Ries in Diamond Bar, California. Well, it's good to have you with us today for Straight Talk with Raul and Pastors Dale and Sean. Their discussion today will center on the widespread problem of sexual immorality among church leaders. Satan is patient and crafty, and the only way for any of us to resist his temptation is to daily seek the Lord and set up personal safeguards. Now, here's Raul Ries.

Raul Ries: This morning I woke up and I was thinking about a topic for the show. I thought in Calvary Chapel, a big problem has been sexual sin among the pastors, believe it or not. But not only in Calvary Chapel, outside of other churches, denominational churches, big-time pastors have fallen.

After giving up 30, 40 years of ministry to get involved with one, two, or three, or maybe four people in your congregation or outside of your congregation, and your ministry by people hearing, "Did you hear what so and so, he fell in adultery?" What do you think about that?

Dale: I think that if we're going to make a difference, then we have to look at the reason so many are falling. You're right, so many among men we know, we've known for years and years and years, but on a broader scale from around the world, happening all the time.

It doesn't matter, some people will point to one denomination or another as if that's a weaker denomination and that's why it happens. That's not why it happens. It happens because of the world that we live in. The Bible clearly tells us that you're going to serve one or the other, and it's about who do you serve? If you serve the Lord, then you're a slave to Christ.

But then something happens. These pastors, and now we can look at the reasons, maybe we can help. The world we live in promotes it, sells it, celebrates it. Every time you turn on the TV, things are allowed on TV today that were never allowed on before.

This morning on my computer, it was a trick. I was looking at a political site and it said, "You can't see it unless you press this button for cookies, you accept." Well, you see that on all of them. Well, I wanted to read the article, so I pressed yes and boom, a pornographic, you see it right away, boom, you shut it off.

But it's on there. Here's the first reason. You don't realize you're going to get hit with this stuff all the time. You let your guard down. "I'm in church. I'm before a screen that everybody can see. It's the last thing I would do." But Satan, boom. The world, the principalities and powers of darkness, whatever you want to call it, it generates because it's the most profitable thing on the internet is porn.

By the way, that's the Greek word for what we're talking about, porneia. This sexual immorality that not just in the church, the crime that we deal with every day in our own ministries is that it happens in the church.

Raul Ries: They should read Leviticus 18 and 19. It talks about animal, it talks about everything you want to know. I can't believe that pastors are willing to give up their ministries after so many years because of one person or maybe two persons.

I know that when Pastor Chuck taught us the Word of God, he was really concerned about the pastors in Calvary Chapel. But then you have the Proverbs. Proverbs Chapter 5, I mean he starts off by saying, "For the lips of an adulteress drip like honey, the smoother than oil and her speech, but at the end she is bitter as a wormwood, sharp as a two-edged sword."

The whole chapter is on the prostitute woman. I've talked to pastors that have fallen. I mean right now we heard a couple other, a couple weeks ago, a couple other pastors fell. So the thing about it is it is a problem with men and women too. I think part of the problem is like you're there is they're having problems with their wives or husbands.

But Paul in 1 Corinthians Chapter 7, he says if you're having problems with your wife or your husband, separate, pray, fast, and if you're getting tempted, come back and take care of the problem with your wife, with your husband, not with anybody outside of your marriage, right?

Sean: When you look at a sexual sin like you brought up Leviticus, and we see throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament, sexual sin is always something that men and women have fell prey to. When you look at even the time of Moses' time where he was going up to get the tablets, there was a party going on downstairs. He was taking too long and there was debauchery taking place.

Before that, you go to Genesis Chapter 6, you see the fallen angels as we see and you see the sexual immorality that was there. You bring up Leviticus. That was one of the things that tripped me out going through the Bible my first time is how the Lord would correct all these things because He knows the heart of man, that these things are going to lead you into complete bondage.

Therefore, a child of God, if you want to walk in holiness, which is the theme of Leviticus, don't follow the practices of the world around us. You bring up Proverbs 5 and you bring up as we're talking about maybe pastors and leaders who have knowledge of the Word of God that have been born again with the Holy Spirit.

Raul Ries: Chapter 5, 6, and 7.

Sean: I was going to bring up 7 because going through 5, 6, and 7, great. One of the things I believe in Chapter 5 it tells, what's the remedy? Rejoice with the wife of your youth. Be connected with your wife. That's very important.

But Chapter 7, it talks about the crafty harlot. The whole chapter is dedicated to it. He paints this picture of a man that puts himself in a place of danger. He's going through a pathway that he shouldn't have been in in darkness of night and it gives you this picture across the street. He knows where he's going. He's playing with sin and he's falling right into the bait of the enemy.

Then the enemy comes in, this being used by this woman, "Hey, come home, my husband's gone away. He's not coming home for a long time and then come up to my room." But what has always impacted me is the last two verses of that chapter. It's the aftermath. It says, "For she has cast down many wounded and all who were slain by her were strong men. Her house is the way to hell, descending to the chambers of death."

They were strong men. "This isn't going to be me." I think about you, about all the exhortations that you have given over the years. I have it in my mind, drilled into my mind from my early days of ministry here where it's, "Hey guys, don't think it's because you're good looking that these women are looking at you or coming after you." It's because the enemy.

The enemy will set you up. It doesn't matter if you're good looking, doesn't matter if you're ugly. The enemy, as you both of you have said, he is a good fisherman as well. We were called to be fishers of men, but Satan is a patient fisherman and he has the right bait. Your wife's not paying attention to you, your husband's not paying attention to you, and it sets up all these tactics because our flesh is weak and it is in the heart. The heart has to be dealt with and a heart that isn't examined.

I think that that's one of the things I've tripped out. I've been in ministry for 21 years and I've heard your stories. I've experienced it by people that I know. I remember earlier in my days of ministry going with a pastor that I was listening to for a while when we were doing an event out in Vegas. Great teacher, and then we find out there was a big adultery thing just horrible for the church, a lot of hate. How does it happen? I would say one big thing is a lack of fear of God, a lack of fear of God and reverence to God and playing with sin.

Raul Ries: How do young pastors get involved and they fall for a woman?

Dale: The first thing that happens in my opinion, there's a series of things that have to take place for a spiritual man to fall. The first thing that has to take place is he has to get his eyes off of Jesus. There's a lot of ways for that to happen, but you can watch a pastor. Is he preaching the Word and is he practicing the Word? Is he being too familiar with women? Watch him.

How is he hugging the women? How is he embracing the women? I'm not saying that all hugs and all embraces are bad, but you ask what leads. You let your guard down. You have an issue at home and you don't deal with it. That's where so many, like the one you were talking about, he had a situation at home. He fell out of love with his wife and he didn't deal with it.

You can have a healed marriage and eliminate any opportunity for Satan, but when you don't want to heal your marriage, when you've had it up to here with your wife or your wife has had it up to here with you and she now cuts you off, she doesn't communicate with you, she isn't showing you any affection whatsoever, and you're at a church and you have a ton of people, and they all look up to you.

I think, God forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I am, that some of these men use that opportunity to fish in that pond that is their church because women will come up and it's happened to all of us and they'll tell you more than you should hear. You have to stop them.

I say this before everybody listening today, ladies, be careful what you say to the pastor. Just talk about sin. You don't need to be detailed in what you say because he's just a man. Get to the point. We have a rule here at our church, and I'm not putting us above everybody else, but you should not counsel anybody for more than 15, 20 minutes because what you have to give them is the Bible and not your experiences and not your opinions.

Raul, you hit it right on the head. 1 Corinthians Chapter 7, the principles of marriage and it gives you directions for separation and divorce. Even if you're a Christian, divorce can happen. Let's face it. As a result of our in Matthew Chapter 19, "Lord, why did you allow divorce?" Not in the beginning we didn't, but because of the hardness of the hearts of men.

Today it takes place. But if you are separated or divorced, there are rules to follow. The pastors in the pulpit that are falling are not following the rules. They are no longer serving Christ, but now they're serving themselves.

Guest (Male): You're listening to Somebody Loves You Radio with Raul Ries. If you happen to be in the Diamond Bar, California area on March 14th, join Pastor Raul and other solid teachers at Calvary Chapel Golden Springs for a family conference titled Family: God's Way. Through powerful biblical teaching and worship, couples and families will be encouraged to build their homes on the foundation of God's Word. For information, simply go to somebodylovesyou.com and click on the family conference graphic. Now, back to more of today's Straight Talk.

Raul Ries: I want to bring up something that I just thought about. You have pastors, you have wives. The pastor commits adultery because his wife is overweight, doesn't take care of herself physically, or he's overweight, he doesn't take care of himself. So the devil comes along and says, "You know what? I really know my wife, but I can't go to bed with my wife."

So you get tempted. I mean, how many times have we done that before with people? They get tempted. So what happens? The guy starts counseling and counseling. I counsel with you once, I counsel with you twice, and pretty soon you're telling me your problem, I'm going to tell you my problem. When I start telling you my problems, she's going to go, "Wow, he has problems just like me." So, "You want to go for coffee? You want to see?" And it starts the relationship and then it ends up in adultery.

Dale: Can I say one thing, Raul? And this is another warning. Ladies, when you go and tell the pastor everything your husband isn't, if he's not right with the Lord, you're giving him an opportunity to become everything you want him to be. He could be doing it for the wrong reason, just to have an opportunity with you, and you've given him all of the information he needs. Be careful. Be very careful.

I mean, how many guys do we know, I mean not hundreds, but we know where the wife became a problem because what she did, what she was doing at that present time? Well, the husband the same way. But we know of wives that somehow they get into drugs. I mean they start taking medication and medication takes over their lives. We know people like that. And what happened? They lost their ministry and lost their marriage. That happens all the time.

Sean: That's why you have to be invested into your home. That's why one of the qualifications of ministry of pastors and leaders is to make sure that your home is in order. Why? It's for your protection. When you allow the guard to go down, you're not taking care and tending to the needs of your home, you're going to have a problem.

Something that's left, if you're trying to deny it, that's why the Corinthians tells us, "Hey, you have an issue, pray, fast, seek the Lord for healing to take place," because if this isn't fixed, it's going to have disastrous effects in other areas. I say this often, there's a day of reckoning coming.

You might be able to maybe put pause on a situation, make it through that week, and, "Oh, we'll deal with it." But eventually, if you don't, you keep on putting it behind under the rug, something's going to happen. Your heart's going to grow cold.

Our world, and you guys started off talking about the world of pornography today, people also go down that pathway of fantasizing and their mind starts. That's why Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount speaks about where does adultery begin? It begins in the heart before it becomes an action. It being in the heart is a problem in itself. It meaning that sin is trying to reign over you again, trying to have dominion over you. It's not to say that none of us are tempted or a thought comes into our mind and we see a visual, but it's understanding like bringing every thought into subjection to the obedience of Christ.

"Lord, I see my weakness. Lord, I need to turn this off. This isn't good for me. I shouldn't be in this place. I shouldn't be loose with my language. I shouldn't be flirtatious. I shouldn't be around this particular person because it's going to bring disastrous stuff."

I think that's what happens sometimes. People put looseness. I think you have to have great communication in your marriage. I think you need to listen to your wife too as far as sometimes our wives will have a discernment. I'm sure Sharon and they, "Be careful with this woman, Raul," or same thing with you, Dale. I know I've had it in my life too. They encourage you, but also sometimes there are things that you need to pick up on. People that are godly are around you. They can have things and, "Oh no, don't worry about it." Then you start to see actually, "You know what? They could be falling for you." And that's your fault. You've corrected guys on that before, Dale.

Dale: There are so many warning signs. Let's face it. We're men. Sometimes we're so consumed with ministry, we don't see it happening. We trust everybody. You've got to be on guard and you've got to listen. One of the dangers of pastors sometimes is pride. Pride, it's the pride of life, the pride of their wisdom. It's almost an arrogance. "This can't happen to me."

I've had some godly older women in this church because I hang out in the hallway a lot during and after services so that I can minister to people. Occasionally, I've had an older woman come to me and say, "Pastor Dale, you better be careful." I said, "Why?" She says, "Do you see that lady there?" I said, "Yeah, she's very nice." She goes, "She's too nice."

She sees something I didn't see. Even when she told me, I kind of hesitated, and then I realized, you know what? It's true. Every time she walks by me, she comes over, she gives me a hug for no reason. The lady said, "Be careful." She used a term that we used to use a lot. She said, "She's a pastor-killer." I thought, "Oh my God, she's probably right."

So if there's any pastors listening in this morning, watch your pride. Watch your pride. Be very careful that you know you don't know everything. You don't know everything.

Raul Ries: There's another thing. Your husband dies, you get a divorce, what do you do? I tell women and guys, if you're going to get remarried, make sure Paul says in Chapter 7 to get remarried to who? To a Christian. Then if she dies, a Christian, right? Then he says if you have the gift, don't get married. So God gives us the escape where we can't get ourselves in trouble because there's a way out if we obey what the Word of God says when we do that.

Sean: Yeah, what's important to note is that it doesn't matter how educated you are, how smart you are, how ugly you are, how good looking you are, how old you are, because it's not just in the guys that are in their 20s or their 30s. How many guys that you've seen have fallen in their 40s, in their 50s, in their 60s, in their 70s?

It's big right now. It's all circulating in the news. I'm not breaking any news thing. The author was, Philip Yancey, I believe his name is, 74, 77 years old, and admitted to an affair of eight years. Now he has chosen to step down from ministry and stop writing and everything and pour into his wife and reconcile. But it's just a note.

It doesn't matter. Like David fell when he was a little bit older in age too. It goes to your integrity and it does affect you. David's life was affected after that. God forgave him for sure, but there was reaping of the consequences. So it's a reminder to us that, "Oh, that's this is a message for the guys that are in the 30s and 40s. I'm in my 50s, 60s." No, you have to continue to grow in your relationship with God. You don't want to give an opening for the enemy.

Even older men that maybe be retired and they're getting loose on what they're watching. They're allowing their mind, they're at the supermarket, they're playing with things, they're at the gym. They are trying to fish a little bit. You know what? There'll be somebody that will eventually take the bait. Because you're playing with it, you're going to fall prey to it. Easy.

Dale: I was going to say one thing, that if you don't have safeguards, safeguards. One of the things that we do at this church, and you both we do it together, is we remind the staff almost every week. We remind them to be careful. Billy Graham, in Billy Graham Ministry had something called the Modesto Manifesto. If you look at a ministry that really was filled with integrity, his was.

Raul Ries: What do you say in conclusion?

Dale: In conclusion, understand these things happen everywhere. Be on guard, protect yourself. Most importantly, and the best way to protect yourself is to keep your spirituality alive. Serve the Lord.

Raul Ries: Sean, what do you share to the people in conclusion?

Sean: You've heard it said before, there are three enemies that we have against us. It's the flesh, Satan, and the world. The flesh is weak, Satan is the tempter, and the world is alluring to us. He uses the things of the world. One thing that James says in James Chapter 1 verse 13 says, "Let no one say when he is tempted, 'I am tempted by God,' for God cannot be tempted by evil nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin and sin, when it is full grown, brings forth death."

James is giving an exhortation to have the listener look at himself. Look inside because if you're feeding the flesh, the flesh is going to grow, the desire is going to grow. You're feeding your mind with perversion, pornography. Those things that are going to build an appetite and it's going to want to perform these actions. In the end, it's going to bring death. Sometimes everyone blaming the enemy or blaming God for setting them up. No, God cannot be tempted by evil. So you have to recognize that you're in a battle. You need to stay close to the heartbeat of God and understand that when you are led by the Spirit of God and you reckon that old man to be dead, that is the way that you'll have victory.

Guest (Male): Well, if you've experienced the fallout of a Christian leader's fall into immorality, or if you're dealing with the temptation yourself, we hope today's discussion has assured you that you are not alone and you don't have to deal with those feelings alone. We encourage you to seek out a trusted person to walk with you.

It might also be helpful to listen to this Straight Talk discussion again as you think about the consequences of sexual sin. Visit somebodylovesyou.com or call 800-634-9165 and ask for the interview titled "Avoiding Sexual Immorality". We'll send a copy to you on CD for just $5. The number again is 800-634-9165. And when you call us, we'd be happy to pray with you if you're struggling with this issue in any way. So don't hesitate to ask.

You can also write to us at Somebody Loves You Radio, P.O. Box 4440, Diamond Bar, California, 91765. Browse iTunes and Spotify for podcasts of all of these programs or look for them on the Somebody Loves You World-Wide YouTube channel. You'll also want to download our app for digital Bible studies and live-streamed teaching. We're a listener-supported ministry and we want to say thank you for your tax-deductible gifts. Your partnership is a great blessing to us.

Next time, as we begin a new series in the book of 2nd Timothy, we'd love to have you join us. This brief letter written by the apostle Paul will challenge you to persevere and endure in your faith, no matter what kinds of trials you face or how unpopular it is to be a follower of Jesus. Now, here's Raul once again with a closing comment.

Raul Ries: I'm glad we talked about this topic because it's a very important topic. I hope a lot of pastors can listen and then people outside of the church. They might be going through this problem. So if you're in a situation like that, we're here to help you. You can call here at Calvary or go to your pastor and you can talk to him about the situation. Don't let it grow because if it grows, it's going to grow where you're going to accept it and you're going to take it and you're going to do it and you're going to fall. Then what happens? Your family, you and other people will get hurt because you didn't take care of the problem. If it's a problem, take care of the problem. May the Lord bless and keep you guys. God bless you.

Guest (Male): This program is sponsored by Somebody Loves You Radio in Diamond Bar, California.