New Life LIVE

Guest (Male): Welcome to the New Life Live podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's Word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: Hello and welcome to New Life Live. I'm your host, Brian Perez. Happy Labor Day. I'm here in the studio with Dr. Jim Burns. He's a parenting expert, the founder of Homeward, and he's also written a few books. You can get many of them in our store at thenewlife.com store. His latest is called When Your Adult Child Strays. We've also got clinical psychologist Dr. Jill Hubbard here. Dr. Jill, what's on your mind to start us off?

Jill Hubbard: Hi, guys. How are you? Recently, I had the opportunity to go out of town. Every couple of years, I go out of town with some girlfriends from college, and we were celebrating some big birthdays. We had a great time; it was really fun. But I got to be a little bit humbled by some life lessons. God doesn't waste anything; he teaches us.

So, I made an attempt to water ski. I'm not a real athletic person, but what I have done my whole life is snow and water ski. We happened to be on a boat in the lake and were talking about it, and it's like, why not? Sure. I haven't water skied in five years, but I thought it was like riding a bike. I've done this my whole life.

I get in the water and think, there's that muscle memory. I know how to do this. I'm a goofy foot, so I put my right foot forward. I'm all geared in and I say, "Hit it." I did exactly what we talked about last time we were together; there's a tip sheet on falling forward. I tried several times but only got about halfway up. For the first time in my adult life, I could not get up.

It was a little bit humbling and a little bit shocking. I realized that my mind knew what to do. I could picture it, but my body couldn't do it. My arm strength was not there. Five years previously, my arms would be sore, but this time my arms just couldn't do it. There is speculation that the boat driver was not punching it enough, but nonetheless, I had to deal with the fact that five years later, things that you don't use, you really do lose.

Nothing stays the same. I know that, and I help people deal with limitations at different stages of life. It was another thing when I was having to do it. Our bodies are not just staying in one spot. We can't just tread water in life. This is not just in something physical and fun. In relationships and in our endeavors, we have to keep at things and not just rest on our laurels.

I will say, though, that I used muscles I haven't used in a really long time, and it felt enlivening. Even though I didn't get up, I felt really alive. It made me realize the mind-body connection. We need to keep moving. So, I think that's my thrust today. Keep moving in all directions. Keep that positive growth going.

Jim Burns: It's a great reminder. I love that you said keep moving because that's what we need to do in relationships. Move on. Like you said, I'm going to try it again. Sometimes in a marriage, we are at a dead spot, and we need to keep moving. It'll take us to the next level in a good way.

Jill Hubbard: What can you do? I could strengthen my arms a little bit. Will they ever be super strong? No, but I could do something.

Guest (Male): We will be right back. To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: Let's go to the phones, beginning with Julie in Knoxville, Tennessee, who listens to the New Life Live podcast. Hi there, Julie. Thanks for listening to the podcast and thanks for calling in.

Julie: Hello. I can hardly believe I've made this call. I've listened for years, and this is the first time I've ever called in. Listening to this helps me so much with finding words to name emotions or feelings. Sometimes I will be listening to you all and think, "Yes, that's exactly the word I need."

Today I'm calling about a relationship with my eldest sister. We have run into problems a couple of times because she's very controlling. It is not so much of me, but of her family and so forth. My issue with her is she speaks very negatively and ugly about total strangers, and she also comes across as very racist. I have two Black grandchildren, and I am white.

Brian Perez: So you're sensitive to that.

Julie: Yes, very much so.

Brian Perez: Does she say things about the grandchildren?

Julie: No, she doesn't. But she also doesn't ask about them. If I show her a picture or something, she mostly says nothing. There have been a lot of remarks made about other Black or brown Americans. It's hurtful to me because it feels like disrespect for the people that I love the most in this world.

Brian Perez: Julie, does she know that you feel this way? Have you told her?

Julie: I have not told her that.

Jim Burns: How would she take it if you said, "You know what? I love you so much, but I feel uncomfortable when we have these conversations about Black or brown Americans. It just makes me feel uncomfortable." Would she take that as World War III, or would she listen? How would she react?

Julie: Well, she recently tried to explain to me why she feels so negatively. It really made me start to think about racism. She says that where she lives in this country, the Black and brown Americans are different and more rude and hostile.

Brian Perez: So she felt the need to explain to you, even if you've never said anything to her. It sounds like there's some awareness there.

Julie: We were on a trip together along with another sister. We were definitely treated very rudely, me in particular, by some Black people that were on the bus. It did get to the point where we just rented a car and left the trip. She really fussed at me for being nice to the Black people. I sat and had conversation.

Brian Perez: Has she always been like this, Julie? Do you remember when she was a younger teenager, or is this something new?

Julie: I really couldn't say if it was younger in her life because we are 11 years apart. By the time I was eight, she was gone.

Jill Hubbard: You guys also kind of grew up in different generations. You have different personalities. When she's afraid or uncomfortable, it sounds like she criticizes. It sounds like you take more of the tactic of kind of killing them with kindness.

Regardless of race, there can be rude people of any race. Rudeness is just rudeness. Maybe that's more of a way to focus; that you understand the rudeness of those people, and then not to generalize. Sometimes we all feel most comfortable with people who are like us. There's a tendency to play it safe instead of trying to understand and reach out and realize. Where's the common ground? Just because someone looks different doesn't mean we don't have a lot of things in common. One of those is human decency.

Julie, I like your approach. But you might ask your sister, "What scares you?" It seemed like you were afraid because, sometimes, that criticism, anger, or dismissiveness is really fear and a lack of understanding or feeling safe. You said she's very controlling of her own family, her environment, and herself. When she gets in situations where it feels destabilizing, it sounds like she starts to control. One way to control is to separate: "Well, they're not like me. Look, they're so rude. They're not okay." That is a way of bolstering ourselves and making ourselves feel safe again.

I think you have an opportunity for some really good conversations. So, instead of you just being offended and hurt, I don't know that she's directing it at your grandkids, but she does have a need to feel safe and keep things in a tight circle.

Brian Perez: That's an important question to ask because something does scare her. The thing is, sometimes, Julie, you can't do anything about her issues. You're right on this case, but you can let her know, "I don't feel comfortable with these kinds of conversations because some of my very best friends look like the people that you're talking about, and my grandchildren do, too."

That may not be able to change her, but you may be able to help change the conversation pattern when she's around you. In doing that, and when she begins to understand how you feel and where you're at, she actually may come around in a good way. You don't want to flee from her; she's your sister. At the same time, she is older and she came from a different generation in many ways. All you can do is be yourself, be the person of integrity. The Bible says the person of integrity walks securely. When we walk with integrity, we'll walk more securely, but also the people around us will be more secure.

I wouldn't see that as a negative thing. You have such a great spirit about you and the way you talk and come across. I could hear you doing that not in a really negative, dramatic way, but just as, "You know what? This is how I feel."

Jill Hubbard: Or just saying, "Sometimes comments like that make me sensitive because I do have Black grandchildren, and I would hate for them to be lumped in and labeled in those ways."

Brian Perez: Julie, thanks for calling in today. We want to send you a tip sheet that we have available. It's called "10 Tips for Dealing with Difficult People." We think this will help you in your relationship with your sister, so stay on the phone. We'll also put that information in our show notes. If you're watching right now, you can call us and we will send you that tip sheet.

You might have heard us mention the Hope Together Conference that's happening next month in Allen, Texas. It's also happening online. I'm especially excited because Becky Brown and several members of the New Life team will be part of Hope Together this year. If you've enjoyed New Life Live, this is a wonderful opportunity to spend three days learning alongside us and many other outstanding Christian leaders.

Hope Together is happening this October, next month, in Allen, Texas and online. You can go to hopetogether.com to find out more information. Here's a promo code that you can use for 20% off: NLM20. Let's talk to Jane in Philadelphia, who watches us on YouTube. Hi there, Jane. Welcome to New Life Live. Are you there, Jane?

Jane: Yes, I'm sorry. I had you on mute because it really sounded like you could hear me if I said anything about the previous caller while you were talking.

Brian Perez: You're good, Jane.

Jane: My question is—I don't know if you've ever heard this one before—would God call me to stay married to a narcissist as being called to a ministry? I'm emotionally exhausted after every marriage counseling session. I only recently realized that he's a narcissist and he's been blaming me for 50 years because I hurt him before we were married. I've told him several times. He just finally remembered parts of my story.

I've realized, wait a second. It's not me; it's you. He's insane. He throws everything back and turns it around, saying that I'm not making him happy. At the marriage counseling yesterday, I said, "It really seems to me like you get your energy to love me by me loving you." Isn't that the definition of a narcissist? His energized love supports the marriage because I don't believe he can love me because he has such poor self-esteem that he literally has to feed off me like narcissistic supply.

Jill Hubbard: He needs narcissistic supply. So, how he feels then impacts things. When he feels filled up and loved by you, then he's able to reflect some of that back, but he can't just generate it on his own.

Jane: Correct. What makes it worse is that I've had PTSD therapy recently. It's called CPT, cognitive processing therapy. My therapist didn't even believe that I went to Restore. Betrayal causes PTSD, and my therapist didn't even recognize that. Anyway, we went to the marriage seminar and then to Restore. There I finally exposed and confronted him about an affair two years ago. We've been in marriage counseling for one year and a half because he waited a whole year to insist on counseling because I thought it was over. I confronted him four times. We're going to marriage counseling, and he still hadn't confronted the therapist a week after the first visit.

I'm dealing with a whole lot of burden, and I just don't know if God's calling me to stay married or not. My personal therapist kind of thinks that God has to tell me or not, and that I should just continue to be abused. He God could call me to ministry and I'll just keep being abused. Is that okay?

Jill Hubbard: Continued abuse is not okay. There are certainly steps to remove yourself from being abused. It's a hard call because if your husband has had an affair, sure, you're free to not stay married. Someone isn't either a narcissist or they're not. It's not an on-off switch; it's on a continuum. Depending on the level of severity determines the progress that can be made. It's certainly slow with narcissists because they have a really hard time tolerating any of their own badness. They have no tolerance for that. That's why they project it onto the other person and make the other person contain it all.

Guest (Male): We will be right back. To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, visit thenewlife.com. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: Jane in Philadelphia, we're going to hear from Dr. Jim Burns now.

Jim Burns: Jane, I have a question. Have you been married to him for 47 years?

Jane: It's 47, but I met him 50 years ago. We've been married for 47 with a shotgun wedding. I feel like there's this rash of people calling back years later and not necessarily being married. I feel like we're an anomaly.

Jim Burns: It's obviously very difficult to be married to a narcissist. When you talked about betrayal, how have you worked through the betrayal part? I know you went to a seminar and things like that. How is that in your heart? How are you dealing with that? How does he deal with it, too? Does he admit that?

Jane: We've been working through that, but as of last week, I don't feel like we've made any progress in marriage therapy. His attitude is like he's said it, he can't wait for this to be over. He can't wait for marriage counseling to be over, like we'll just go on without it. So I know that's not a long-looking paradigm that I want to be in. We have four kids, nine grandchildren, and there's so much life around us that it's hard to want to separate.

Jill Hubbard: Jane, how old are you now, if you don't mind me asking?

Jane: I'm 67 and he's 71. He's going to be 72, and his company just told him he has to retire when he works with this woman, not as closely as before because I confronted him four times. I still brought it up in marriage counseling because when I don't get information from him about what their relationship looks like, this panic starts to build and I blow because there's no transparency.

Jill Hubbard: Has he gone to Every Man's Battle?

Jane: He did years and years ago, so he holds this card in his back pocket like he doesn't really need this. His therapist was a counselor that did those therapies, but he stopped doing them a while back. Our marriage counselor is his personal counselor. So I think there's a double standard going on here, a lack of objectivity. I think the answer is that I should get an objective marriage counselor. His company just told him he's retiring even though he wanted to retire a year from now. So thank you, Jesus. Not only did I find out they don't work together, but for the last couple of weeks we've known that he has to retire sooner, in about a month and a half. That's brought relief to me, but it's still hard.

Jill Hubbard: Instead of saying should I stay or should I go, it's more like, what do I need to do for me to be more okay? There may be certain boundaries and parameters. You need him to do X, Y, and Z. As long as he's saying "I can't wait until this marriage therapy is over," he's not getting it. I would confront that. Say, "That attitude of wanting this to be over says we still need to be here."

You have to tell him what you need to see from him. In doing so, he could manufacture it, and that's true, but narcissists don't always have a lot of feelings and empathy for others. But they do have feelings for themselves. So, knowing who he is, use it to your advantage. You can't just hit him with a lot of criticism because then they go all bad. So you have to give him some supply, give him some praise, point out the good things, and now say, "But this is here what I'm needing from you to continue how we're continuing." You have a lot of say here, and you can structure things in a way that works more for you and call him out at times on that feels like that's really all about you, and there is two of us in this relationship.

Brian Perez: So often we hear that question Jane had—should she stay married to this person because it's her ministry? So often we hear that when churches put on mass crusades or even a local outreach and they're going to spend all this money, and if one person comes to the Lord, it was all worth it. Should she continue putting up with all this if it saves her husband? Where is that line drawn?

Jim Burns: The Bible talks about mutual submission. Submit to one another as you would out of reverence for Christ. I think she deserves to be able to say here's what my needs are. Jane, I would do that with a counselor. If you don't feel right because it's his counselor, seek another opinion. Seek another advice.

My goodness, you deserve a different end of life here in terms of how your relationship is. If you haven't already gotten the book Worthy of Her Trust, that is good for both of you to read. That's the expectation.

Brian Perez: Worthy of Her Trust is in the thenewlife.com store. That can help you, Jane, and anyone listening who's in a similar situation. We've got to take a break. Tom and Amanda, we're going to talk to you when we return.

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We've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life, and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. "99 for the 1" is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE, 1-800-639-5433, or thenewlife.com/99for1. Join the mission. Rescue the one and restore the many.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, visit thenewlife.com. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: If you're stuck in the cycle of shame because of sexual acting out, don't let that shame convince you that you're beyond help. The truth is, breaking free from sexual struggle takes more than willpower. It takes understanding what's beneath the behavior and having the right tools and support to move forward.

For over 20 years, the Every Man's Battle workshop has provided this and has helped thousands of men discover that freedom is possible. The next workshop starts this Friday. Yes, this Friday, and you can still get in. Visit thenewlife.com for all the details. If finances are an issue, listen to me, if finances are an issue, we have need-based scholarships available. Call us for all the details at 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Don't let your shame or finances take over.

Tom in DuBois, Pennsylvania, listening to the New Life Live podcast. Hey, Tom. How can we help you?

Tom: Thanks for taking my call. I am getting ready to start leading a Life Recovery group. I have attended a Life Recovery group for about the last three years. They have been instrumental in my recovery from a process addiction that I struggled with. Now I'm at a point where I feel like I can lead the group.

Having said that, I'm still a little nervous about it just because I have led ministries in the past and things went bad. I want to know any advice as far as leading a ministry and then maintaining a balance in your personal walk with the Lord. Like I said, in the past, I saw where that went south for me personally, and I'm a little apprehensive of stepping back into a leadership role. Quite frankly, I would have never dreamed that was possible. I had stopped attending church for about six years because of the clinical depression I was in. Now I'm at a point where I feel like God has made it clear he's calling me to do this. I should trust in that 100%, but I just don't want to fail. I don't want to see my personal walk with the Lord be compromised. How can I maintain balance and set proper boundaries as I enter into a new season of leadership?

Jim Burns: Good questions, by the way. I'm really happy that you're doing this leadership because that helps with our own recovery. I gave a sermon a couple of weeks ago and I went, "Wow, I don't know if anybody else got a lot out of it, but I sure did." It was really helpful to me. So, as you do recovery, don't look at it just that you're helping others but that it's also helping you be the man that you desire to be.

People who are in recovery and then leading in recovery have to be reminded of a couple of things. My wife reminds me of this. She'll say sometimes, "Jesus is doing very well. You don't need to replace him." When you're caring with somebody, you've got to be very careful that you're not God; he is. You can do your best to help them, but you used the word boundaries. Set up the right kind of boundaries, and then don't do this alone. Don't do this in isolation. Have somebody else around you. Maybe you have a co-leader or you have someone outside—a sponsor, a counselor—that you can be talking with. Sometimes we need someone who might be able to say to you, in accountability, "Hey, your schedule seems to be a little bit out of control right now. How are you doing in your own life?" I've had people ask me that, and it's been really helpful.

Sometimes people who are leading in recovery are people pleasers and they want to help everybody. All that's beautiful, but at the same time you've got to make sure that you're taking care of your own soul. I think you know what to do.

Jill Hubbard: You've been in a group for three years, so that has been your training. Could the person who led the group you were in be someone that you could talk to about things? Leadership should not stand alone. I love all the things Jim was saying about leading.

One thing I always pray is, "Lord, I know I'm not enough, so fill in the gap." You said you're afraid you're going to fail. Well, yeah, we all fail. None of us do things perfectly. A leader of a group is really a facilitator. You're there to create an environment for people to participate. So I want you to take some of the pressure off of yourself and even remind the group this isn't about you leading and teaching and your performance here. This is about you helping them to open up.

There's always the person in the group that overtakes or overshares that you have to kind of say, "Okay, two more minutes." Then there's the person who's super quiet that you ask if they would like to share something. You're helping to facilitate and you're creating balance in the group that you're also wanting to do for yourself. When I've led groups, I learn a ton because you feel a little more responsibility to be prepared. But again, it's not all on you. Let the flow of the group happen the way you've seen in a group for three years. Was that a successful group that you were in?

Tom: To me it was. I benefited greatly from it.

Jill Hubbard: So looking at what made that a good group. Remember, groups have personalities, and they kind of go in and out of that. When everybody's new, it starts more superficial. Then things get deeper. Sometimes there's conflict. If someone new comes in, then everybody shares less. There's a life that a group has. Just be aware of that; some of the ebbing and flowing may not be because of you.

Tom: That was all great advice. I really appreciate that. I do feel like the leader from the group I attended and I have breakfast every Saturday, so we're talking this through. The pastor at the church that I'm going to be leading this at—it's going to be the first time this church has ever had a Life Recovery group—he has very limited experience with Life Recovery groups, but he's been nothing but supportive of me.

Within the congregation, one of the guys that I know has stepped up and he is very enthusiastic about getting involved. He's never been in a Life Recovery group, but he's been looking for something like this all his life. My pastor and I and this guy talked to another leader from another Life Recovery group, and he said since I have the Life Recovery experience that I will be the leader and then as this guy works through the 12 steps that he can come in. It all makes sense to me.

Jill Hubbard: I love that you're meeting with the other leader every Saturday because then you can process how the group went and talk it out loud with him. That's how you develop your skill.

Brian Perez: Tom, thanks for starting a Life Recovery group. Maybe you're listening to Tom's conversation and you're like, I need to be in a Life Recovery group or I need to start a Life Recovery group in my area. We have over 600 or 700 of these throughout the nation and some of them are meeting online. Find out more, find one for you, or find out how to start one on our website, thenewlife.com/groups. We're going to take a break. Amanda, you will be up next when we return to New Life Live.

Guest (Male): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, visit thenewlife.com. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: If you have a heart for helping hurting people, you can start a Life Recovery group like Tom, but you can also become one of our financial supporters here at New Life Ministries. The Life Recovery groups is just part of it. We do podcasts, webinars, and workshops. When someone reaches out to New Life, it's often a moment of deep crisis. "99 for the 1" partners make it possible for help to be available consistently. Their monthly support sustains the core of New Life's ministry. You can learn more about how "99 for the 1" partners make a difference at thenewlife.com/99for1.

Here's Amanda in Rancho Cucamonga, who listens to New Life Live on the New Life app. Welcome to New Life Live. How can we help?

Amanda: My husband and I are recently separated and I'm just struggling with that. It's been about three and a half weeks. We've been together 10 years, married three years. Our whole relationship has been like a cycle of problems and toxic.

Then I had our oldest son eight years ago and I developed OCD mildly. Then I had our second kid a year and a half later and it kind of got worse. I got on some medication, but in 2023, when I found out I was pregnant with our youngest, I had to get off of that medication. Once I had our youngest, the OCD got severely bad.

For the past three years and within the last year, it got even worse. I've been trying to get help from therapists, trying medications. The psychiatrist I have now suggested a certain test that tells you which medications will work with your genes and what won't. All the medications I've been trying the past three years were useless because they weren't going to work with me. If I would have known about that, I could have said something sooner. Now I've found the medications that will work, so I'm on one right now and it's been helping.

My husband had a negative thing towards it like, "Oh, another medication that won't work." He's discouraged. Then one day there were some things that were said because of my OCD. I have excessive spending on—I have a contamination fear—so it's excessive spending on disinfectant spray and wipes and stuff like that. I was going through money a lot. He decided to open up a separate account, and that bothered me not because I wanted the money but because we're married and I see marriage as a partnership, a team. I understand his point of view; I completely get it. Then some things were said and he decided not to come home. His mom ended up buying a plane ticket for him to bail. He is not even in the same state as me. He didn't even reach out to me until almost a week later. Every time I try and say how I feel, he's very defensive.

Jill Hubbard: Amanda, OCD is really painful and I'm so sorry. It is a brain biological condition that gets triggered by life circumstances and fears. I'm so glad you've targeted a better medication because it really does require medication. But not just medication alone. Are you in therapy? It would be important, especially with things going on in your marriage, to have someone to walk alongside this because otherwise a lot of times that OCD part of your brain takes over.

It sounds like your husband has lived with this for a long time. It may be important for you to hear what it's been like to be on the receiving end of your OCD behavior. That may be why he's having a hard time listening to how you feel because he may feel like he's had to endure this for a long time. For you to really hear that is important because getting fixated on the cleaning and the contamination and all of those things are a distraction from what's going on deep inside of you. But it takes on a life of its own, and it sounds pretty pervasive in your family.

Jim Burns: This is a separation; it's not a divorce, even though by him going away, that's a harder thing. But I would now, in terms of the relationship, I would make it a "we." What can we do to make it more effective for us and for our kids? I don't hear you saying he is saying he doesn't love you; I hear him saying that maybe he's doing this because he wants some change.

So it's not the time to say you're wrong here and I'm right. It's just simply time to listen to him. In doing that, maybe you have a new medicine, maybe there's a new plan, and maybe that new plan has getting some marriage counseling, getting some marriage mentors from your church. I think there's hope.

Jill Hubbard: Let's use the separation to rebuild and to strengthen the trust between you. He's doing things to protect himself and to limit the damage. So that tells me that there's been some chaos that's been stirred up. So submit to those things. Start small so you can work towards things being better.

Brian Perez: Amanda, hopefully you and your husband can go to the Intimacy in Marriage Intensive. We have one the weekend of September 25th in Dallas, Texas. If you sign up by this Friday, you'll get an early bird discount. We also want to send you a tip sheet called "8 Ways to Manage OCD," so stay on the phone and we'll put that info in the show notes.

Guest (Male): Thanks so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember, we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to thenewlife.com to find out more information. And thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing, and we're so glad that you're here.