New Life LIVE

Narrator: Welcome to the New Life Live podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's Word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: I just looked at the calendar, and this is a rare month with five weekends in it, and we are here to help you enjoy every minute. If you don't think that's possible, we beg to differ. This is New Life Live. We've been helping people for 40 years, almost 40 years. You may feel like you're the only one going through this, whatever your "this" is, but you are not. Let us help you.

I've got my friends Mark Cameron and Dr. Jim Burns in the studio with me. Jim is an author and founder of HomeWord. And Mark is also an author and a licensed marriage and family therapist to boot. Jim, what's on your mind?

Jim Burns: I spoke at a church recently on the word deconstruction. Deconstruction means that someone is losing their faith or has lost their faith. I was amazed at the response. For one thing, it's a new word. I didn't know this word ten years ago because we didn't use that word. But it's people who are deconstructing their faith, and you're seeing more and more of that. So I actually want to talk about that. I think it has some psychological terms, I think it has some spiritual terms, and it definitely has relational issues.

If you look at deconstruction, for a lot of people, they say, what is that? In its simplest form, I say deconstruction is a death of a person's belief in God, or at least belief in the church. Because it may not be that they don't believe in God, but they may just be rejecting the church, and there's numerous reasons for that. I call it, I wrote something called the Anatomy of a Lost Faith in my new book, *When Your Adult Child Strays*.

I talk about first we start with just neglect. Then once we neglect our faith, we drift. We could still be going to church, but we just sort of drift, which begins to be an unbelief stage or a lack of trust. And then we go to disobedience. Once we are disobedient, it's easier to move down that slippery road into deconstruction because now we have to decide are we going to come back to God, we know we've sinned, or are we going to change our belief system?

That's what I think a lot of people do. I think a lot of young people change their morality. But that's only part of it. Then you move to disobedience, insensitivity to God. I think the Bible calls it a dull sense of hearing. We just don't hear God anymore. And then finally, we forfeit our faith. When that happens, parents go crazy, we go crazy, we're so hurt that our brother did this, or for me working with adult children, the lost child who strays from faith or whatever.

But I think there's some things we have to understand. There's really three categories for me in deconstruction. I call them the wanderers. Some people call them the dropouts because they are dropping out of church. There's a new generation of Gen Z that is coming, that's great, but there's still a lot who are walking away. I have three words, and I get this from my friend David Kinnaman: Nomads, slow fade. They aren't going to church, but they're doing the slow fade away. They're drifting.

Secondly is what we call the prodigals, and these are people who really no longer describe themselves as Christians. I'm so sad that there are so many people who do that, and maybe you have a loved one who has. And then there's the exiles. They still believe in Jesus, but they've abandoned the church. Maybe they were hurt by the church or maybe there's some other reason. Maybe the church became political and they're not, or they have a different philosophy.

Those are all deconstruction. Even my daughter Christie, when she was in college at a Christian school, she said she had to lose her parents' faith to gain her faith. And that was a form of positive deconstruction. So what do we do in this? I think we maintain a climate of openness with that loved one. We maintain a climate of grace. We recognize that God is sovereign and we're not, that God is going to help bring them back.

One of the things I like to say is doubters are welcome here, and it's okay for them to have some of those kinds of doubts. But basically continue to influence them and refuse to blame yourself. That's kind of in a nutshell, but there's so much pain and suffering that goes along with somebody deconstructing. I've seen it within family members of my own life.

Brian Perez: We'll continue to talk about this here on New Life Live when we come back. The book is called *When Your Adult Child Strays*. It comes out in four days. I believe you can pre-order your copy right now. So we'll be right back on New Life Live.

Narrator: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: Here we are, back on New Life Live. Thanks for having us on today. Thanks for sharing us with your friends as well. Maybe a friend referred you to us and here we are for you. You can find out more about us at newlife.com. You can find out how to get your questions to us at newlife.com/radio.

I'm Brian Perez, here with Dr. Jim Burns, the founder of HomeWord, and author Mark Cameron, who's also a licensed marriage and family therapist. Jim began the show today by talking about deconstruction. It is one of these new words that we hear all the time. It's sad because parents raise their kids right. Maybe they grew up watching VeggieTales on TV and the videos, went to Sunday school and everything else, but then they just get to this point where they just walk away.

Jim Burns: Six, seven years ago, I wrote a book called *Doing Life with Your Adult Children*, and I never dreamed I would spend the rest of my life every day, Brian, honestly, every day, I'm not exaggerating, with letters from parents, emails, or whatever, who say that one thing: "My kids were raised in the church, they were leaders in Sunday school, they were in the youth group, and then they left and they don't believe anymore."

I see a depth of pain that I haven't seen when somebody dies sometimes. When the death of faith, which is the dream for the parents, these wonderful Christian parents who are just mourning this. There are some good answers. There are answers that we can stay in the story. I have good stories, even in that book, of people who have come back. Unfortunately, sometimes they come back 12 years later with some bruises and bumps and a baby along the way and an ex-something.

But they do come back. We have to be aware that as parents, we're in it for the long run with our adult children. But the same with anybody who is losing faith. Sometimes they seem so adamant and so strong about it, but then I get talking with them and they're more open to this. Maybe there's a crisis that happens in their life. Where are they going to go? They're going to end up going to where they grew up, to a community and to a community of faith. It's interesting how often you see that.

Mark Cameron: Sometimes in our society, words' meanings get changed, and then we're afraid to say that word because to everyone else it means something different. But I like what you said there about there was a good deconstruction with your adult daughter who went to college and she had to deconstruct your faith, her parents' faith, to get her own.

Jim Burns: By the way, that was scary for us. We go to the same church. We sit next to each other at church now, but boy, that was tough.

Mark Cameron: Everybody has to do that. Everybody has to make faith their own. But usually in these situations when somebody's losing their faith in the sense that we've been talking about deconstruction, we want to go to logic and reason. Well, let me tell you what the Bible says. But that doesn't really convince someone. You can't use the Bible to explain God if somebody doesn't believe in the Bible. It's circular reasoning.

Usually there's an emotional component going on underneath, and we neglect that part oftentimes. If we were just to pause and say, hey, tell me about how you feel about that. What's going on? What's the emotion there? If we can identify that and explore that and connect with that, that gives us then an inroad to be able to lead with logic afterwards.

Jim Burns: You're right. And you do this so well, but we need to understand the story behind the story. Because they may be just angry, but they don't know what to do with that anger. They're angry at the church because maybe they went to a church that was super political one way or the other. So they go, "That's what the church is all about. I hate the church." When in fact, that's not what the church is all about and most of the churches are very fine and deal with good issues and care deeply, but they got one of the rotten apples in it or whatever it might be.

I'm not even pointing fingers at all churches. I mean, I love the church. I am committed to church. But yeah, you've got to find out. We can't go to people and say, "Here's how right I am and how wrong you are," and then expect them to jump into it. We need to be able to love, do what Jesus did, lead with love, practice kindness, then allow them to see the light in us, and they are drawn to the light of us and others who would love them within the community of faith.

Mark Cameron: Churches are flawed too, because they're run by people. There's church with a small "c" and there's church with a big "C", the church overall. And there are churches with small "c", buildings, a community organization that get things wrong. They do. They get things wrong. Sometimes that's legitimate to listen to someone and say, "Oh, the pastor said this. You're right. I don't agree with that. Or the church did that. That's not okay." So tell me about that.

That doesn't mean that that reflects who Jesus is. The church is supposed to reflect who Jesus is, but what I'm saying is it's run by humans and we get stuff wrong, so it doesn't always reflect.

Jim Burns: Just like all of our families that can be dysfunctional at times, the church can be dysfunctional at times. I think we have to understand that the church is part of a family. What's fascinating about God is that he used dysfunctional people sometimes. If you look at the fathers and the mothers of our faith in Hebrews, man, there's some pretty wild stories in there, and they were, I mean, David. He was flawed. He was deeply committed to God, and yet he did some really awful things.

And yet he is one of the fathers of our faith. Grace brought him back and God's love brought him back. Again, that's what we have to understand when it comes to church or others out there. I mean, we're shooting sometimes our own family who are within the church because they've done some goofy things. I'm sad for that. I don't believe that they should, but we shouldn't walk away from our own faith because somebody else did something silly. And that's what I see happening sometimes. Brian, you'd see this because you work with pastors too.

Brian Perez: Go ahead.

Mark Cameron: What I was going to say is just kind of validate something that you were going along the lines of too is that people often panic when their kids want to deconstruct their faith. And it's a long game. They've probably taken some time to deconstruct. You're not going to fix it in an afternoon conversation with them. So it's that long game of really getting to build that relationship and help them become a good thinker.

Jim Burns: Actually, if you can help them become good thinkers. I have some friends whose son was walking away from faith. They said, "Jim, would you meet with our son?" And I said, "Well, I'd love to. It'd be great." I kind of knew the kid a little bit. So he sits down and he has 12 questions, and they're all the hardest questions no pastor wants to hear all 12 of those at one time.

And I said, "Well, I kind of have about eight out of the 12 that I still have the same question as you, buddy. But let's look these up together." I actually spent some time, this was not a counseling session, this was like, let's work through this. And we worked through it for a couple of times. Today he's a youth pastor. But what happened was he needed to hear somebody go, "I'm okay with your doubts. I have some of those same doubts." He's looking at me going, "Well, he doesn't. He preaches, he speaks, he writes, and he must love Jesus a lot more than I do."

And I love Jesus. I don't think I love Jesus any more than this kid did. I just had some of the same doubts. It's okay to be a person who deals with some of those issues. That's what we need. But the parents panicked because he was saying some things. When he said them to me, I kind of went, "Well, I'm kind of with you. Let's work this through together." Part of a deepened faith is that it's okay to have a love for God and still go, "So I'm not sure about this." In terms of, is creation a six-day thing, a seven-day thing, a thousand-day thing? I don't know. But I can live with that. I can live with the "I love God." I'm going to find out when we're in heaven. Some of the types of issues that we squabble over. I don't know.

Mark Cameron: I think sometimes we forget that certain books in the Bible like Ecclesiastes where there is a lot of questioning, or even Lamentations where there's a lot of "Why, God, why?" We don't usually quote a lot of Lamentations, but it's in the Bible on purpose to show that it's okay for us to say, "Why, God, why?"

Jim Burns: Exactly. You start looking at some of those Old Testament books, Job, the words of David, the laments. All these different things. That's a part of our life and that's a part of our faith. Sometimes we don't want to look at that part of the Bible, but there's a reason for all of it. And I encourage our listeners and our watchers on YouTube to make sure that they're in a church that preaches the Word of God and also has room for discussion.

You can believe strongly. You and I could, I used to have a friend who used to say, "We'll praise God in church and then we'll argue theology or argue politics on the way out and we can still love each other." I wish that was the case that's happening in our country and other countries too.

Brian Perez: Thing about Lamentations is everybody knows that one verse, 3:23, "God's mercies are new every morning, great is your faithfulness." But there's dozens of verses before that and dozens of verses after that that we need to look at. So check that out. That's your homework tonight. Read the book of Lamentations. You can do it all in one sitting too. It'll take you like 15 minutes or something.

But you mentioned the political divide, that is something that happens a lot. But then there's also the whole thing with same-sex attraction and same-sex marriage. The kid knows where their parents stand on the issue, so they just kind of announce one day, "Hey, I have a same-sex boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever, and I know you don't like it, so I'd rather stay in this relationship than to hear you judge me." What do you do when you hear that from a kid?

Jim Burns: Well, I think for one thing, you don't want your kids to rush into these. Because if they rush into any decision, but, and some people again are going to disagree with me, but I don't think we shun our kids because I don't think our kids are going to come back to a deepened faith or a better relationship or whatever. So I think it's very possible to have a right theology and a God-honoring theology and still love your child and not be a one-topic parent.

Do you know what they believe? I'd ask a kid, do they know? Yeah. Do you know how they feel? Sure. Okay. Now both parents and kids have to broaden the relationship. That does not mean that you're compromising the relationship because you have a difference of opinion. I've worked with kids long enough all of my adult life, and that's a long time because I'm an old guy, to see that they will change their mind.

Today they believe this, tomorrow they don't believe. So there's a lot of people who, especially in today's culture and just what's going on, like you're talking about same-sex. So there's some kids who at 14 are questioning, but by the time they're 16, 18, they've already kind of moved back to a more God-honoring way of looking at relationships. So we have to be patient. We can't freak out. Freak out in your own bedroom, yell into the pillow, have a circle of support that you can talk with. But with them, just say, let's look at this in a healthy manner, but don't spend only being a one-topic parent doing that or it's not going to work. They're going to run from you. You still have to be, is it possible to be safe and disagree with your child? I think it is.

Mark Cameron: I think that's some of the best advice that I've heard you say about the one-topic parent thing. And I think we've got to accept too where we don't have control. We don't have control over all things. And so build the relationship up. Keep the door open for discussion. Because if you don't have influence, then your words are meaningless to the other person, even if they're very wise words.

But when we have influence, then somebody's more likely to listen to us. And influence comes through relationship. For people who are struggling and want to find better answers, I'm going to suggest a book here by a guy named Greg Koukl. He probably doesn't know who I am, but I know who he is. And he's got a fantastic book called *Tactics*. A game plan to defending the Christian faith or your values or something like that.

But it's a fantastic book. I've read it several times. And he just outlines the logic and the reasoning, but he also more importantly than that, he outlines a way to approach this with people over in the long term. And ask them questions and draw them out rather than you being defensive and explaining. And it's more of a dialogue than a monologue.

Brian Perez: Find that book. It's called *Tactics* by Greg Koukl, K-O-U-K-L, and that'll help you with a lot of what's going on in your relationship with your kids and when they come up with these questions. And then you yourself, I love what Jim was talking about at the beginning there about the deconstruction. It's not just when our kids deconstruct, but adults deconstruct all the time. And neglect is that first thing, whether it's your Bible collecting dust on the shelf or prayer time with the Lord. Just set aside some time because you don't want to slip down that slippery slope. It is so easy to do. We'll be back with your phone calls. Peter, you will be next when we return on New Life Live.

Narrator: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: What you doing this summer? Imagine investing just one hour per week over the next 12 weeks to learn how to take your life back, lose weight for life, or make the choice to heal. You can, with one of our New Life courses that's beginning next week. Summer's just about here, and by the end of summer, you can have a whole new outlook on life. Healing is a choice, Take Your Life Back are the names of the courses, also Lose It For Life.

Each one is led by a counselor. They're online, so even if you're going out of town this summer, you can still participate wherever your travels take you. Get details about each one, what each one is about. If you need help deciding which one is best for you this time around, you can call us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE or check newlife.com for those details as well, where you can also register. Jim's laughing at me. Which course should I take?

Jim Burns: No, I want to take all three of them. Can I get a discount if I take all three?

Brian Perez: At the same time? Wow. Please. That's awesome. Maybe is the answer. Peter in Charlotte, North Carolina. Welcome to New Life Live. Thanks for calling in. How can we help you?

Peter: Yes. Well, I probably have a very well-trod question, but how do I love my wife? I've got a lot of context here, but I don't think I ever loved her. When we got married, she seemed to check off a lot of boxes that I was looking for. As a child of divorce, that was very high standard and she would never divorce.

She does a lot of great things. She's very sweet. But I never really felt physically attracted. I was getting older and I just thought, well, maybe I'll develop that love. I've heard other people be able to do it. I've got a lot of issues of my own. I have some anger issues, I have some abandonment issues. It's more out of need really than desire.

I don't know if I would have chosen her in a singles group because we met online and chatted for like two years. Didn't spend a lot of time together. And we didn't, I wasn't even able to consummate the marriage for a couple days after we got married because I just felt like wondered if I made a mistake. She checks off a lot of boxes in the non-Eros compartments, great, but there's things I don't like.

I'm not sure I like her. To me, it's a seemingly big part of love. And there's just a lot of aspects that I just don't like. And I've done everything people told me. I called in on this years ago and Steve said, do a lot of things together, ministry, missions trips, all these things. And we've done that and I still don't develop love.

I don't have any Eros for her. And haven't had activity in months and never had much to begin with. And it's kind of grieving now in past childbearing years and it's just not what I expected. And I'm fighting that and I'm kind of angry and I kind of blame her in passive-aggressive ways, I think. And it's just, what do you do? I mean, what do you do in this? I just don't know how it's possible.

Brian Perez: What do you blame her for?

Peter: Well, I guess I blame her for not being what I like in an attractive woman to have that fulfilled side. There's things I can go into about what I don't like.

Brian Perez: Give us one or two.

Peter: Social intelligence. I have a high need for that. She doesn't seem to have that in the intuition side of things that I thought most women have, but she's very good at what she does and she's very helpful. I'm not saying she's not. But she just, and then the sense of humor. I have a pretty acute situational sense of humor and she just doesn't get any of that or very little of it. 90% of that's missed. And it just doesn't lead to an attraction ever. Going on 11 years.

Brian Perez: Mark, what would you say to Peter?

Mark Cameron: I was hoping you were going to go to Jim here. Oh, Peter. No, I'm not making light of this. Thank you for calling in. This is such a hard situation that you are in and being brave enough to call and say, hey, this is what's going on with me. And there's probably other people who are listening who are resonating with where you're at now. Maybe they did love their spouse at some point, but they feel like they've fallen out of love. How long have you been married?

Peter: We've been going on 11 years. And we went to one or two marriage conferences and they all seem to emphasize how to rekindle a lost love. Nobody ever talks about how to develop a love to begin with that you never had. And now that I'm in this, don't believe in divorce, we're just kind of like phileo, kind of good friends and stuff, but and that meets a need to me because I have a lot of abandonment issues. That's great, but there's a little enmeshment probably hurting that attraction perhaps. But I don't know. I look at other couples and I just long to have what they seem to have naturally.

Mark Cameron: And you don't have kids.

Peter: No, now that's pretty much past those years.

Mark Cameron: And when you said there's not much activity, are you talking about sexual activity? Okay, sexual activity. And when you say you don't like her, it's not that you dislike her at all. It's that there's things about her that you don't connect with her on like social intelligence, sense of humor. It's not that you dislike her. Is that correct?

Peter: Right. There's other aspects I need that she does well, but as far as this component, this final piece of the puzzle, the sexual, there's just the things that I like that are not there.

Mark Cameron: Okay. I've got a thought. We're getting to the break.

Brian Perez: Stay on the phone and we'll come back to you, Peter. I just have another quick question. What does she think about you?

Peter: She loves me. She loves me.

Brian Perez: And she likes you?

Peter: Yep, she does. Yep, in spite of all me.

Brian Perez: All right, we'll continue this conversation when we come back here on New Life Live. Jackie, we also want to talk to you, so hang on through the break, you guys. We'll talk to you in just a minute here on New Life Live. Yeah, you can call in and ask us questions just like this, so don't be afraid. We'll be back.

Narrator: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: Hello, it's Becky Brown. I am so excited to launch our 99 For The One partner initiative. Every day, we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression, all kinds of ways. And it reminds us of the story in Luke 15 where the shepherd leaves the 99 to go rescue the one. And you know, we've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life, and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99 For The One is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE, 1-800-639-5433, or newlife.com/99for1.

Brian Perez: All right, so Mark, what did you have to say to Peter before we go to Jackie?

Mark Cameron: So here's my thought, Peter, that you obviously recognize that you've got a part in this. You've recognized that you have codependency issues. You chose to marry her because she felt safe to you. So there's an attachment insecurity that you can work on. Only securely attached people attach securely. If you have an insecure attachment style, expect to have the problems that that insecure attachment style has.

And so that's my challenge to you is work on your part. I'm not saying that that will instantaneously, because I don't think this happens instantaneously, that you'll develop all of this attraction toward her, but you may develop a deeper connection toward her. And if she can do that work too, because this is what I'm hearing you say too, is that you've tried to get under the surface and she's more avoidant. She doesn't go there. Well, that's a "how" she is, not a "who" she is.

Attachment is how we get shaped. But God has designed us to be able to use our emotions to indicate what we need, and when we're not aware of our emotional states, we are disconnected from ourselves. And if we're disconnected from ourselves, we can't be connected to other people. And somebody who has a vacillator attachment style will often say some of the things that you're saying, that they want to have that connection and it feels like it's on a molecular level.

So that's what I would say. Because you're committed to this process, commit that this is a process. Earn a secure attachment style. Start to work on that and then start to invite her in and then see where that takes you in terms of connection after that.

Brian Perez: Hey, thank you to everyone who contributed financially last month towards what we do here at New Life. Your generous gifts really do make a difference. And if you're one of our 99 For The One partners, we're ready for another month of ministry thanks to you. New Life isn't just our name, it's what we offer to people 24/7. Calls made in desperation, marriages at the breaking point, situations that must change. People watch or listen to our radio show and podcasts at all hours of the day and night, or they'll read articles at newlife.com, and it's all because of you.

So thank you. And if you want to give, newlife.com is one way to do it. 1-800-NEW-LIFE is another way, or you can text N-L-M to 28950. And also find out how to become one of our monthly 99 For The One partners. Let's go to Jackie in Glendale, who is listening on newlife.com. Hi, Jackie. Thanks for calling in today.

Jackie: Hi, thank you for taking my call. My question is, I've struggled with my mother for all my life, and I became a Christian, so I did a lot of forgiveness, a lot of repentance of my anger. Things happen in my life because of her, I feel. And anyways, long story, when I go to visit her, I go to, you know how you give a parent hello kiss on the cheek, she kind of turns away, and that always used to get to me.

And then recently, she was like, "I don't like talking to you." And I took that to heart one day and I said, "Well, then I guess I shouldn't come here anymore." And so I pulled away because I was going through a depression that every time I came back from her, it was reject and reject. And so long story of it, now she's calling every day for about a second and she's just like, "Are you okay?" And I have pets, and she goes, "Are the kids okay?" And I go, "Yep." And that's it. And she goes, "Good, just wanted to know you're okay."

So I'm kind of lost. I just wondered if you had. I did, we were going to go to therapy. I found a therapist. Most people didn't want to. I was sexually molested by her husband. They're no longer together. And one day I confronted her with it. I go, "You know, if you'd just apologize, it would be like, say you're sorry that you brought this person into our life." And she goes, "I have nothing to apologize for."

So long story, she's like, "We need, you know, you should see a therapist, and I'd be happy to go with you." So we went, and when I already had talked to the therapist what I wanted to talk about, what our problems are, he goes, "You know, it could be very abusive and I won't go there." And so he asked her, he goes, "Do you believe that your daughter was molested?" And she goes, "No, I think she's lying." At that moment, he just asked her to leave the room and he kind of got me, he goes, "Are you okay?" and we talked, and then she goes, "Good, everything was good today, right?" And I go, "If you think so."

Brian Perez: What would you guys suggest for Jackie?

Mark Cameron: Wow, Jackie. What a hurtful experience that you've had growing up. Not just the abuse, but being not being believed by the person who should have believed you, the person who should have been closest to you, your mother. And I can definitely see the rejection that is occurring. It's a very confusing situation because your mom shows a level of care, not a deep level of care toward you, but a level of care in the sense like she calls and says, "Hey, are you okay? Is everyone okay? Are the kids okay? Okay, great."

So she cares about you in that sense, but there's a lot of rejection and she may be struggling with some of her own shame here, which is why she can't admit or acknowledge that you were abused, that she did choose someone who abused you. Now, sometimes in these situations, we want to repair and restore with someone, and sometimes we can and we can make those efforts. It sounds like you've tried. Other times, it's finding a level of acceptance of, okay, I've tried with this person and they're not willing to do the work.

How can I have a relationship with them that I can tolerate that still stays in connection with them, but knowing that it's not going to go deep? And sometimes that's how we've got to start with someone. We've got to let them know, "Hey, Mom, I love you. I want to have a stronger connection with you. There are some barriers to that that I don't feel accepted, I don't feel heard, I don't feel loved. I want to get there with you, but if we can't get there, then I am going to have to put some limits here. It's not what I want, but it's what I will need to do if we can't get closer."

And then that's the invitation for her. She then has to make a choice with that. But if that happens, then there is a natural grief that will come from the loss of this relationship or the relationship not being what you'd like it to be. Jackie, did we answer your main question?

Jackie: Yeah, you did.

Jim Burns: You know, real quickly because we don't have a lot of time left, but Jackie, I wanted to say we want in a mother, and you're probably this kind of mom for your kids, but we want somebody who accepts, loves, comforts us. We want someone who cares for us, who believes in us, and comes alongside of us. And unfortunately, you didn't get that from your mom.

And what's harder about that is you can tell her what you need, but she still may not give that to you. You know who believes in you and who comforts you and who can come alongside of you and who definitely loves you is God. And I'm not saying that your hurt will be taken away, but you can find that kind of parental love as you lean into God. I really believe that with all of my heart. Now again, that doesn't take away the pain and it doesn't take away that your mom's not treating you the way you want.

I don't know why she did that. I almost teared up when you talked about being molested by her husband and then her doing that. You just got hit in the face and you didn't, I mean not physically, but you got hit in the face. So I would say find other avenues that are healthy for you: your relationship with God at church, your relationship with some friends and loved ones. And you can then have a relationship with her, but you don't have some of those same needs—you'll have the need, but you'll be getting them met in a different way. And I'm so sorry you have to do that. I wish it was from your mom. But do know that we heard you, and you have a very difficult situation. So what do you do with a difficult situation? I think you make yourself healthy and you set up some boundaries with your mom, like Mark said.

Brian Perez: We've got a webinar coming up in July. It's on grief, and we want to send you a registration to that because this is something you definitely need to do. And we're going to pray for you as well. God bless.

Narrator: Thanks so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember, we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to newlife.com to find out more information. And thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing, and we're so glad that you're here.