New Life LIVE

Host: Welcome to the New Life LIVE podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: Hey everyone, happy new month! Welcome to New Life LIVE. I'm your host, Brian Perez, and we are here in the studio today to talk to you. We've got a very special guest, clinical psychologist Dr. Jill Hubbard. Of course, she's always special. Good to see you, Jill.

But we've got Dr. John Townsend from the Townsend Institute. He is here once again with us in the studio. The Townsend Institute is something put together through Concordia University Irvine. You can find out more about it on the Concordia University Irvine website, cui.edu/townsend. For those of you who aren't familiar with Dr. Townsend, he's a leadership consultant, author, and clinical psychologist. He's written over 30 books, including the best-selling Boundaries series. John, great to have you here once again, sir. How are you?

Dr. John Townsend: Thanks, Brian. Thanks, Jill. Just love being with this family.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: You're a long-time New Lifer, too. We need to add that to your resume.

Dr. John Townsend: Well, yeah, a long, long-time New Lifer.

Brian Perez: So, who is the leadership institute for?

Dr. John Townsend: Actually, it's not only just a leadership institute. It's also a counseling institute. We're a fully accredited remote program for graduate schools. If you've got your bachelors and it's time to get a career-wise and purpose-wise opportunity, the best way to do it is education.

We have a remote program that has three different schools. One is organizational leadership. You can get a masters or certificate. The second one is executive coaching and consulting. You can get a masters or credential. The third one is counseling, and you can get a masters or you can get a PhD. Our PhD was termed by Forbes magazine as the number one online PhD in counseling in the world, and that's not in the Christian world. So, we're really happy with how this is working.

We've got hundreds of students around the world now, and they're getting great jobs and great opportunities. It's based on a faculty that's just a wonderful faculty, a great team, based on everything you would expect from what we do. The neuroscience, the psychology, the Bible, personal experiences all have been put into it. All my books have been baked into all the coursework. So, it's the way to get to the dream job, whether you're 23 or 73, that you've been looking for in a career.

Brian Perez: I love what you said about the fulfillment, because there are people probably watching and listening who maybe have gained so much knowledge from what they hear through the years here on New Life LIVE and they want to put that to use so that they can help.

Dr. John Townsend: If you're touched by what you hear here, you may be wanting to do this more.

Brian Perez: I would say maybe if you're the type of person who people come to and they sense that openness with you that they can come to you and talk to you about whatever is going on.

Dr. John Townsend: Most therapists I know, that's how they started. They come to me for some reason, but I don't know what to do.

Brian Perez: So, get more information about the Townsend Institute for leadership and counseling on the Concordia University Irvine website. It's cui.edu/townsend. It rhymes with God-send. Dr. Townsend's books and everything that he has done over the years are definitely a God-send to the Christian community, and not just the Christian community but throughout the world. We're just so blessed to have him here today. We're going to go to the phones when we come back here on New Life LIVE.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE. Let's go to Caroline in Milwaukee, who is listening to us on Sirius XM, Channel 131. Welcome, Caroline, to New Life LIVE. You're on with doctors Jill Hubbard and John Townsend.

Caroline: What a treat! I am so happy that I got into today's show for Dr. Jill and Dr. Townsend and you too, Brian, now that you're new to the group. I think I have an easy question to answer, but my group is having a hard time deciding. We have been studying as a group of women who met through 12-step programs, Boundaries, since October of 2020.

Brian Perez: Goodness gracious. Wait a minute. How many times have you been through it in six years, or have you just gone through it one time in six years? I'm so curious.

Caroline: One time in six years, and we are ten pages left before we finish the workbook.

Brian Perez: Wow. Congratulations! You guys have really chewed on it. How was the experience for you guys? I want to answer your question, but I'm just so intrigued.

Caroline: From my own experience and from my own viewpoint, but I think it reflects all of us, we love it, and we'd like to continue. That's why I'm calling. A number of years ago, in September of 2020, I emailed a group of women in our 12-step group and I said, "Would you like to study Boundaries? It's Christian-focused, so you can know that up front." Ten of us started and we are left with seven due to life circumstances, but everybody can come back if they want to. We have had seven faithful women for about four of those years. We meet once a week at lunchtime, so people that are working can take their lunch break.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Wow. And you guys created this group?

Caroline: Yes.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: I love that. I'm a huge advocate of that. If there isn't a group out there for you, create a group. It started as a 12-step group.

Caroline: Well, it's kind of like it because we rely on the 12-steps. We believe that, but we have a lot of cross-talk, believe me.

Dr. John Townsend: I kind of got that impression. Caroline, what I was thinking about was, have you heard of my book, People Fuel?

Caroline: Yes. Does it have a workbook?

Dr. John Townsend: You'd have to check it out on Amazon. The reason I suggest it is because look at it as a follow-up to Boundaries in some ways. It's sort of like once you've began to say no and define yourself and have your voice and all those good things in boundaries, sometimes people say, "Well, now I've got to understand how to bring the right people within my boundaries that I want to trust more, be nurtured by, and find God's ways with." It has all that in it about how you can get the right people and get the right things from those people and give them back to them.

The whole idea is look at it like we all need bio-nutrients these days. We're all into calcium and taking our iron, trying to be good. Well, we also need relational nutrients, because relational nutrients don't come in a pill. They come in a conversation, and this teaches you how to have the conversation where you maximize the gains in your relationships and you minimize the drains. So, it's a good fit.

Caroline: That's unexpected, to tell you the truth.

Brian Perez: Why so?

Caroline: Well, we were kind of looking ahead of time to see which ones we liked and some people said, "Well, how people grow and beyond boundaries." Then I'm thinking Changes That Heal. I had never considered People Fuel.

Dr. John Townsend: Well, those are all good books that Henry Cloud and I love to help people with, but that's just the first one that came to my mind as a follow-up.

Caroline: Okay. What about you, Dr. Jill?

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Well, you listed several books that I was actually thinking of. Great minds! I love hearing more about People Fuel, because that one doesn't always come to mind first. But that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of wise nuggets in it. But you didn't say Beyond Boundaries.

Dr. John Townsend: I could have. Beyond Boundaries has to do with, now that I do have a voice, how do I learn to move back into trusting people, especially those I haven't trusted before. So, it's really good if you've been hurt, if something bad has happened. But maybe after People Fuel. Then call us in another six years. I just love the depth that you're going to. It's like going through some intensive Bible study, a book at a time. Way to go!

Dr. Jill Hubbard: No, and eventually Changes That Heal, Caroline. I did that, I led that with a group.

Brian Perez: So, we'll put it on our calendar that Caroline is going to call us in 2032. But you can call us before then, of course, Caroline.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: And Caroline, if there isn't a workbook, you take time and you read some of the book in your group, and then you talk about your reactions to it and then how it relates to your life. You can just go through the book that way. You don't have to have a workbook to go through a book.

Brian Perez: And we are so grateful that you're doing this an hour a week at lunchtime. It reminds me of the New Life courses that we do here at New Life Ministries. Our next session is starting in August, and we have three different courses that you can choose from. There's Take Your Life Back, Healing Is A Choice, and Lose It For Life. It's one hour a week for 12 weeks. It's much less than six years. You can find out more about that on our website, newlife.com, or by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE.

Back to the phones. Here is Maria in Fresno, California, who also is listening to us on Sirius XM, Channel 131. If you guys are going on vacation this summer and you get a rental car that's got Sirius XM on it, make sure to tune in on Channel 131, weekday mornings at 10:00 Pacific time. Here she is. Maria, welcome to New Life LIVE.

Maria: Hello. Hi. Thanks for calling in today. How can we help you? It is so hard for me because it has to do with my son and my heart is just broken.

Brian Perez: How old is your son?

Maria: 18 years old. He confessed to me that he is addicted to porn and it's getting to the point where he even contacted a prostitute. I don't know how to help him.

Brian Perez: But he shared this with you, Maria?

Maria: Yes.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Well, that's amazing that he let you in on that. He must be recognizing that it's a problem.

Maria: He's such a good son. He loves the Lord. Last night I was just telling him how proud I am about his character and what I see in him and how he's getting so close to the Lord. I told him I struggle when he wants to go out late at night, because the enemy, that's when he works overtime to try to kill, steal, and destroy because he's doing so good. But I know that we trust you. You said that you love that we trust you so much. When I said that to him, he broke down and he confessed.

Brian Perez: So, you just found this out a few days ago?

Maria: Last night.

Brian Perez: Is his dad in the picture, Maria?

Maria: Yes, but his dad is old school. It's hard to talk to him about stuff like that. I go to the Lord for everything, and I know my husband is a good man and all that, but I'm more raising my kids to love and fear of the Lord and to lead them God's way. I told him about your program. I've been listening for the last month. I told him that he needs to call you guys to talk to you and get the advice. He wanted to call today, but he went to work. I told him about the Every Man's Battle podcast and he listened to it last night.

Dr. John Townsend: Did he say what he thought of the experience when he listened?

Maria: He said that he really liked it. I don't know which one he heard.

Brian Perez: Well, Maria, I would get him the book along with that. He's a perfect age for Every Man's Battle. He's not too young for that. The fact that he's asking for help, you've got an opening there. Great that he's listening. Let's get him to Every Man's Battle. We offer follow-up groups after that experience, but there are also other groups that often meet in churches that are for people struggling with sexual addiction. It is an addiction. This is the behavior underneath it—how he feels about himself, the inadequacy, the insecurity, the shame that he has about himself. Those are the things that working them out in therapy would be a good place for him to really take care of this and not let it continue on to be a long life-long problem.

Dr. John Townsend: Maria, I was thinking about what Paul said in Romans 7. He was in torment. He says, "Wretched man that I am. I want to do the right thing on the one hand, but I'm not on the other. Who's going to deliver me?" Then, of course, it ends up in chapter 8 saying, "Thanks be to God because of Jesus." I want to commend your son and commend your parenting that he had a tender heart and brought his torment out to you. You just said he came in late and he burst out with what's been tormenting him. He trusts you. He's a good man already. You've got a lot going for you.

So, I really agree what Jill and Brian said. Let's get him in a community where they that's what they specialize in and they're fully Christian. Your son is so ready to basically straighten out the rest of his entire life.

Maria: I believe so, yes.

Brian Perez: This is hopeful, even though it's sad news. It's not what you wanted for him. It's so hopeful. The next Every Man's Battle intensive is happening July 10th in Washington, DC. That's next Friday. You can get all the details about it on our website, newlife.com, or by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE. There's a lot of men who are probably listening or watching right now who remember back when they had they might have stumbled across porn or whatever when they were in his position, 18 years old. I think the call we had last time was from a 13-year-old. You thought it was just something harmless that you were just looking at every now and then, but it turned into something that took over. That's why we want to help Maria's son now, at this age while the brain's still not finished. They say it's still wet inside. It's not hard yet. The information is so much better these days, and I get people praising it all the time about it's life-changing. Transformation, not just good.

Find out about it, guys, on our website, newlife.com, or call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Again, it's July 10th, that weekend in Washington, DC. Also, don't forget the Every Man's Battle podcast. You can find that on our website, newlife.com. To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

We were speaking a little bit earlier about the Every Man's Battle intensive that's coming up later this month. We've also got the Intimacy in Marriage intensive. That is for couples or engaged couples who even if you're not struggling in your marriage, maybe you just need a little bit of a tune-up. You can come to the Intimacy in Marriage weekend. It starts July 24th in Washington, DC. If you register by next Friday, July 10th, you will get a discount. Find out more about it at newlife.com or call us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Back to the phones now. Here is Susie in Irvine, who's watching us on YouTube. Hi there, Susie. Welcome to New Life LIVE.

Susie: Hi there. Thank you. Can you hear me all right?

Brian Perez: Loud and clear.

Susie: Okay, good. I've spoken to you, Dr. Jill and Dr. Townsend, before. Thank you. You've helped me at other pivotal moments in my life's journey. So, I now have a 20-year-old daughter who's lost some of our respect and trust over the last couple of years with a boyfriend that she has sneaked him in the house and spent the night and all of that. Now she's 20. We've been down this road of consequences, but all in all, she's a pretty good girl.

Now she's just turned 20 and here or there she'll tell me that she's spending the night at a friend's house and I'm suspecting that she's lying to me. Just my gut. But I don't know if I should bring it up with her or not. I'm torn. Part of me just wants to say, "Just tell me the truth. I just want honesty in our relationship. I've already taught you how you should live for the best outcome, but you make your choices. I just want to know the truth." But I don't have proof right now. So, I don't know. What are your thoughts?

Dr. John Townsend: Susie, let's play the movie in this vignette you're living in. So, let's suppose you do sit down tonight and say, "Sally..."

Susie: I'm sorry. My husband's here and he's telling me to put it on speakerphone, but I can't hear it if it goes on speakerphone. We archive all of our episodes, so you guys can listen later if you need to. Thank you. I'll have him listen.

Dr. John Townsend: Susie and Joe, glad the family's here. The movie would be you guys sit down with her tonight at dinner and you say, "We suspect there's no information. We suspect you're spending the night with Bill when you say you're going to be your friend's house." If she says yes, what are you guys going to do? Have you thought through what your action's going to be after that? It seemed to me you said, "I'm not going to give any consequences. I'm not going to kick you out. I just want to know." I want to make sure that's what you're saying you'll say, because you need to know what happens if you get a yes. Is your yes, "Well, we don't like it, but we love you, and no consequences. We just want to know the reality," or is there another follow-up you're going to say to the yes?

Susie: I would be interested in your opinion there, Dr. Townsend, but I was planning to say no consequences. "You're 20. You're going to school. We love you. We want to help you, but it's not wise. But your choice, honey, but I just want honesty." But I'm interested if you think we should continue. I didn't really want to kick her out on the street, you know what I mean?

Dr. John Townsend: I wouldn't either, not for that. There's other things I would. But it would be something you really disagree with and it's not good for her and God says it's not a good idea. But I think I'd probably say one thing. Does she have a plan to move out one day?

Susie: Yes, she does, I think, college. She's in junior college now and she's transferring.

Dr. John Townsend: Okay, so she's moving. This is about her adulting and having to pay her own freight. You're being really kind, but sooner or later, there's got to be a plan. So, make sure that's in place. But the other thing is, is she a believer in Jesus?

Susie: Yeah, she is. She goes to church, but she's told me that at one point, you know how believers do, "I don't think that this one point is wrong."

Dr. John Townsend: Okay, so you have your little theological discussion. That's what I was wondering. How does she reconcile it? What does she think about it? Help me understand, here's the passage. In First Thessalonians 4, it talks about keeping your vessel in honor and in holiness and all that. Just take her through that. Say, "Here's what the Bible says. It says premarital sex is not okay. Help me understand, sweetheart, because we love you." I would make it a conversational thing and make sure she's confronting God's word in love and don't bring the boyfriend into the discussion. That's not appropriate. Just make sure she's having to wrestle with those adult decisions now with a loving mom who's godly and cares about her and wouldn't be a shaming thing. It'd be like, "Here's how people work out the moral issues."

Dr. Jill Hubbard: I think you want to keep the discussions open. Freaking out or coming in with heavy consequences, I don't think works at this age. Certainly, she knows where you stand on it, but to say, "Okay, we see this differently. So, I don't want there to be the dishonesty and the lying that can go because we see things differently. If you're making these adult choices, let's start having adult conversations about this, and I really want to understand where where you're coming from." And no sneaking in the boy in the house anymore. That would have a consequence, because you can control your house. There would be a consequence there, but not for this.

Susie: I think we've had it sort of in the past, but maybe not in such a mature way. So, we'll have it again.

Brian Perez: Way to go! Sounds good. We'll be praying for you. Thank you so much for calling in today to New Life LIVE. We've got about half an hour left and we will get to as many calls as we can. Mindy and Michelle and Roger, we'll try to get to you too, here on New Life LIVE.

Every day, we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression, all kinds of things. Wouldn't you love to be part of a rescue team? Don't miss your opportunity to be part of something that changes lives every single day, because every one matters. Your generosity helps find them. And you know, we've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life, and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99 For The One is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE, 1-800-639-5433, or newlife.com/9941. Join the mission, rescue the one and restore the many.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

So, yes, the Every Man's Battle intensive is happening next weekend in Washington, DC. Get all the details about it at newlife.com or by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Let's go back to the phones now. Here is Mindy in Clinton, Indiana, also listening on Sirius XM, Channel 131. Thank you all for listening on Sirius and thank you, Mindy, for calling in today. How can we help you?

Mindy: Hi. Can you hear me?

Brian Perez: Loud and clear.

Mindy: Well, I have a sister that's 59 years old and she tried to commit suicide on Saturday. She's always, ever since she was a little girl—I'm the oldest of four and I'm almost 10 years older than her—she's always been very headstrong and just has wreaked a lot of havoc emotionally, mentally, physically, with her own children. Everybody, we try to preempt her actions or reactions. We don't know if she's going to blow up. Any type of family function you can imagine, she's disrupted weddings, family reunions, birthdays, all these things.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Wow. So, you all kind of walk on eggshells and are held hostage?

Mindy: Yes. That's what I say. We've been held mentally hostage for years. Now, I'm the only sibling right now that talks with her or tries to appease her when she's around. She's a drinker. She's been to rehab a few times. She died with this overdose for six minutes and she was in a coma, then they kept her in the coma for a few days. When she came out, we knew that either something would be wrong with her or, most probably because it's the only history that we have with her, that she would come out mad, blaming everything. They even had to have security stand at her room. She talked to her husband horribly, told her children she never wanted to be a mother and she didn't want to be a mother and all these things. I'm just here to try and help my family and give them words or counsel, because I'm the oldest and I'm all that her four children really have at the moment. So, we're just all battered and we don't have any words for it anymore.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: It's a lot. Someone like this, their brain feels things very intensely. Their emotional state, they get dysregulated really easily. They're very sensitive to distance and closeness, feelings of abandonment. So, it leaves people, like you said, trying to manage their reactions and then they often up the ante. But then you're also talking about throwing in the drinking. That's just going to make her emotional issues look like they're on steroids. With this being her first direct suicide attempt, you have to take it seriously, even though sometimes people do it to punish those around them. Regardless, if you're in a state of mind to try to do that, you're in a lot of perceived pain.

She definitely needs some kind of treatment. I think she's still kept a husband, which is remarkable. But I think there needs to be a lot of boundaries around someone like this. Certainly you can give empathy, but they need boundaries. They need to hit up against, "This is not okay. It's not okay for you to take this into your own hands. It tells us you're in a lot of pain, so we're going to take you seriously, and that means you need to be hospitalized if you are a danger to yourself. We need you to go through treatment, even though she's gone through before." Sometimes people have to go through multiple times. But I think it needs to be pretty firm. She's used to kind of pulling all the strings and being in charge. It's like, "No, you've just crossed a line where we're not trusting your judgment now and so we need to step in and make some decisions for you."

Dr. John Townsend: I really agree with Jill. Mindy, I was thinking about when Jesus was told, "Hey, your family's waiting for you." He says something really profound. He said, "Who are my mother and brother and sisters but those who do the will of God?" Right then, Mindy, he redefined the word family. You've got a tight family, four of you, and you care about her, and you care about your sister long enough to let her wreak havoc on that family. You guys are tight. But you're not enough. Jesus was saying there's the bio-family, the one we grew up with, and that's supposed to do good things, but the real family is the family of God.

You guys need to get out of yourselves. Do what you're doing with her. You probably need to not invite her to things she'll be crazy at and there's a history until there's good behavior. But what my thought was, I love what Jill said is it's time to get the professionals in there. But you can't make anybody do anything. But if I were Mindy and I love my sister but I'm getting burned out, I'd probably have limited I don't know how often you talk to her. You might talk to her every day or once or twice a week. But in every single conversation, because you're the only one who hasn't left, I would finish that conversation with, "Have you gotten a therapist? Have you gotten help?" And I would be that little dripping thing about, "I'm not going to make a fun conversation where you can just blame everybody in the world. Sooner or later is, you were in trouble and I'm the only one left for you. Have you gotten a therapist?" And I would just stay on that with her until she'll make some good decisions.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: And I think Mindy, you have to stop being afraid of her. Because I think someone like this, they crave the boundaries. Even though they push against it, they crave it. It shows a sense of security. They're dying to hit up against someone. So, you have to be strong and confident and firm in what you're saying. Loving, but firm. I think that will feel more secure to her, like you get it. Because she's very intense. So, she needs a little bit of intensity back in the right directions. Now, let's add a time element to our little recipe we're giving you, Mindy. Not now. She attempted last week. This is not the time, she's too fragile, she's too vulnerable. You don't want to come in with that. But once the doctor or whoever she's seeing, she's got to see somebody to be out of the hospital, who says that she is stable enough, then you can begin doing what Jill said. But it's a not-right-now.

Susie: Hopefully, before she gets out, husband and you are talking with the doctors and let's come up with a plan here. Let's not just release her.

Mindy: They have her on a 72-hour hold. They have great psychiatrists and get the plan going. This is the good time.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: One more thing. A good type of therapy for someone like she would be DBT therapy—Dialectical Behavioral Therapy. Works really well with someone like her.

Brian Perez: Mindy, thanks for your phone call today here on New Life LIVE. Everything that we've helped today and all this week is because of the financial contributions that you make to our radio ministry. There's a lot of expenses, there's production, there's buying airtime on radio stations, so we appreciate whatever you can do. Please help. You can go to our website, newlife.com, or you can call 1-800-NEW-LIFE, or you can text N-L-M to 28950. If you want to send us a check or money order, I think they still make money orders. I think they have them at the post office or something, or cashier's check, whatever you want to do. But we would love it if you would help support us. You can go to our website, newlife.com, to get our mailing address. We'll be back with more calls.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

If you are ready for real recovery and not just willpower, we have over 735 Life Recovery Groups that offer Christ-centered 12-step community to help you break free and grow. You can find a group meeting in person or one online on our website, newlife.com. Let's talk to Michelle in Montana. Thank you for calling in today. You are on with Dr. Jill Hubbard and Dr. John Townsend, the founder of the Townsend Institute for leadership and counseling. You can find out more about them on the Concordia University Irvine website, cui.edu/townsend. Hi there, Michelle. Welcome to the show.

Michelle: Hi. How are you?

Brian Perez: Doing well, thanks. What's going on?

Michelle: Well, we have a son who's 39 and he has been diagnosed bipolar. I believe it's bipolar 2. It was a little confusing which one when he first was diagnosed. Anyway, he's now married with a couple of kids, so we have grandchildren, and we struggle to know how to navigate the relationship with him and his wife. They can both be quite difficult. He can be rather moody, quite manipulative, meaning if we do what he wants, then things are going well. We're in the good graces. But if not, meaning we can't babysit when they want or dog-sit when they want, something like that, then there's going to be a wall of coldness and moodiness for a while.

From what I am a life coach, I've done a few years of education and study. It appears to me that there are some narcissistic tendencies in there, like covert narcissism, because he's always the victim. He's always dissatisfied with his jobs. He's always...

Dr. John Townsend: I'm glad you said that because I was going to say, we're not talking bipolar stuff you're doing here. People with bipolar can be super humble and owning their stuff, but the manipulative stuff is character, and character is narcissism. So, I'm glad you're seeing that.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: And it's bipolar 2, which is the depressive side. So, sometimes with the mania they get really grandiose and it mimics narcissism.

Michelle: Yeah, and I mean that's a possibility, but he's literally every job he's had, he's always...

Dr. John Townsend: Well, then you've known this since he was a little boy?

Michelle: No, honestly, I will tell you that my husband and I and his sister are just shocked at how much he's changed really since college. High school it kind of started, we started to see it, and then college it really came out, the mental illness. We thought it was just depression and then later on it was much, much worse. And he's very high-functioning. He actually does manage life fairly well except that his relationships, no friends, and just very difficult to get along with, frankly. So, we struggle to navigate because we want to be in our grandchildren's lives and be their less dramatic place to land. It's very hard to know when to hold boundaries and when not to, because we don't want to lose ground with seeing our grandkids.

Dr. John Townsend: Have you ever had—this is that whole cancel thing that we have to deal with a lot, Michelle—have you ever had the explicit message, "Or you won't see the kids," explicit?

Michelle: No, not that. It's just that they get less cooperative after. So, it'll be like less cooperative and there's passive-aggressiveness. Like Sunday, we hosted Father's Day and they were very late and we were doing a lunch and they ate before they came. All of a sudden, they're late, but it was that kind of passive-aggressiveness. It becomes much less cooperative.

Dr. John Townsend: And have you ever had a direct confrontation about that kind of unloving behavior? Direct conversation.

Michelle: I have tried. I have said, "Can we talk? I can sense some anger." I've tried to say, "I want to hear what I've done." I've tried that route, because he rewrites history a lot of things.

Dr. John Townsend: Well, I'm sure he's probably pretty good with the part where Michelle says she's done. I'm sure that's not a problem for him. But in terms of you start off and you say, "Look, I'm not perfect," but when you say, "We noticed that things happen that feel kind of hurtful in some way when we don't dog-sit or babysit," have you ever been that direct?

Michelle: Yes, I have said that.

Brian Perez: And what's his response been?

Michelle: "You're making too big a deal out of nothing. This is just not what you're imagining."

Dr. John Townsend: So, he minimizes and denies it. Very much, yeah. It seems to me that you could have a sequence a few more of these. I mean, I never tell somebody, "Just leave the relationship after one event." I just don't think that's okay, unless there's some horrific felony. So, you might want to have a few more of these, but I think I would say, we love you guys, but we really need to get around a referee who's outside of us. A good Christian counselor or a pastor who deals with families, because our communication's not good. We want to own our stuff and see that.

A lot of times they'll say, "Sure, I'd like to go to see this person because I can tell them how bad you are." Well, that's fine, because that's what that therapist is paid for is to understand collusion and understand the back and forth. But if they say, "We don't want any help, you're all the problem, we'll never change," since they haven't canceled, I think I would just do everything you can to keep your own boundaries. I would not be hijacked into dog-sitting when you can't or into babysitting when you can't, because that's so enabling makes them worse. But let them frustrate you and let them throw little slings and arrows at you and come late to things and be that way. I would look at that as the cost of having access to grandchildren that you can be godly with.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Right. I think you have to take a stance of healthy detachment when people don't want to change. Really seeing that their reactions are them. You sound knowledgeable, Michelle, like you're really trying and that if you guys have done all that you can, they're going to be this way. So, don't expect them to be any different. Expect it and just allow them to come when they come. "Oh, great to see you," and don't make a big deal about it.

The other thing I would do is when you are dealing with narcissistic traits and you don't necessarily have the hope of having a real discussion or mending things to the degree that you would like, then you want to stay in a relationship. So, you couch everything with first telling them something good about themselves, because narcissistic people love that. So, it's like when he says, "Can you babysit the dogs?" "Oh, gosh, I know you really need this break. You work so hard. Your dogs are so wonderful and we love them. Dang, unfortunately, sweetheart, we're not available to watch the dogs this weekend. I might be the most beautiful dog we've ever seen in our lives. But you know, there's some dog kennels. Can I get you the name?" You just kind of stroke him, make him feel good about himself, and then you slip in your no. Sometimes that goes down better.

Brian Perez: I just wonder if Michelle's family, do they think she's got nothing going on that she can just drop everything?

Dr. Jill Hubbard: But narcissistic people rewrite history to be in their favor. They do become the victims, and you are not a whole person. You're an extension of who they need you to be, and that is the problem. You're there to serve them. How could you have life outside of them? Be nice to them, don't enable them, concentrate on great relationship with those kiddos. You're doing a great job.

Brian Perez: Michelle, thanks for calling in today to New Life LIVE. We're out of time. God bless you all for watching and listening and praying for everyone who called in.

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