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New Life: Welcome to the New Life LIVE podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: Well, hello. Welcome to New Life LIVE. I'm your host, Brian Perez, on this Patriots Day edition of the show. We are here today with Dr. Jill Hubbard, she's a clinical psychologist and also a licensed marriage and family therapist, and Chris Williams. Thanks, you guys, for being here today. Dr. Jill, what's on your mind to start us off today?

Dr. Jill Hubbard: I can't not talk about 9/11 today. I think we just owe it to the day to at least acknowledge it. Here we are, I can't believe it's been 25 years. 25 years, and so many young people—I know my son was six weeks old when it happened. So, 25 years, or even my daughter was four or five when it happened. They don't remember. They don't have a vivid memory of it.

So it's just so important that we acknowledge it and that we do remember. We don't want to be desensitized to the evil that was perpetrated. However you look at it—I know there are all different kinds of theories and conspiracies and thoughts about it—but the truth is, real people died that day. Real people tried to save people from dying that day, and that we remember and try to remember them well is so important.

We honor, not to revere or set it up as something more than it is, but we also remember so we don't repeat it. It's important to do that. I think all through history, through biblical times, Old Testament times, God had the people build altars to memorialize a spot. I always think about walking along and seeing a pile of stones in the Old Testament. Did they label it? What did they do? But they did that to honor a situation, a time to remember what God had done in the midst of difficult times.

One thing in Old Testament tradition is that they were to pass on the stories. I think one of the problems when the Israelites were traveling through the desert and meandering is that they didn't pass on some of the traditions as they once did. They didn't celebrate some of the festivals and things as they once did because they were on the move. So, in their wandering, their memories were also meandering as well. It cost them greatly.

Some people say, "Who wants to remember really horrible things?" We don't always want to remember the details. If we take it on a personal level, people who have had their own 9/11 tragedy in their lives—remembering every detail is pretty painful. But to be able to remember it also honors that part of you that lived through it. If we forget it, it's like we're telling the child part of us it didn't matter. Just pretend, just go on. Or the young person, we're telling that part of us that struggled that no one cares about that anymore, you just need to move on.

For us to pause and reflect and say no, we do care about it, we care about all those people that lost a loved one and who suffered greatly and the hit it did to our nation. So today, to pause and to maybe have some new understanding, but that doesn't mean we rewrite history. We need to remember well.

Chris Williams: Thank you, Jill, for that so much because I've been reflecting a lot in these last 25 years and reflecting actually on what it was like. It was actually one month before Ember and I got married. I remember that season of life and one of the things that I remember about 9/11 beyond the tragedy—because when you live through it, it was so surreal, so out of body, couldn't believe that it was happening. As news was coming out about different planes and different threats, it was just such a time of uncertainty, uneasiness, and grief.

It was a time that I distinctly remember that we were really just Americans at that point in time. Our divisions and our disagreements and our different perspectives and beliefs were fading away into this really strong sense of solidarity. I get a little bit choked up about it right now that we've lost the solidarity. Remembering it is that we really do want our neighbor to be okay. We really do want our fellow citizens to be okay.

Obviously as Christians, it's not just about Americans, but at least we can start here in our home. Hating each other didn't make much sense that day and the days following. When you're rescuing people, you're not asking them what they think about issues or beliefs. For me, what's really important is that remembering the solidarity, remembering that there is good that comes out of it.

There is a sense of grief and tragedy. One of the maybe unwelcome gifts it gives is a sense of what is most important. You and I, we are what's most important. The well-being of our neighbor and the safety of our neighbor, that's what's important. Today, my remembrance is the remembering that we may have different beliefs, we may have different perspectives, but I am for my fellow American.

I am for the well-being of my neighbor. Obviously, that goes at the very heart of what we believe as Christians: to love our neighbors as ourselves and even when it comes to our enemies, pray for those who persecute us, wish well for our enemies, which is so counter. But I just believe that there was a deep heart collective—it was in the ethos, it was in the water of that solidarity.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Things get normalized. You do go back to normal life over time. But I think the impact of that is important. Obviously, we can't sustain that constantly, but I think holding on to—that's why we commemorate it every year. We talk about it because it's still a lot of us who are living that lived through it. It's not like World War I and we still commemorate that, that we don't remember. We're here, and so it's our job to pass on the stories.

Brian Perez: I remember 9/11 was on a Tuesday and the next day, 9/12, was a Wednesday. I went to a midweek service at my church. It was packed. I got there a couple of minutes late because I couldn't find a place to park. I finally go inside, and there was no place to sit. It continued like that for a few weeks, including Sundays. But then little by little, people just started to—I don't know what it is.

Brian Perez: Were either of you already in practice then? Did you get people coming in?

Dr. Jill Hubbard: In fact, that day I was supposed to meet with a colleague and introduce my baby to her, and she happened to be from New Jersey and called me up. She was the person who told me and said, "We're not meeting today." I'm like, "Why? What happened?" She goes, "Turn on your TV!" So, I was in practice and, yeah, people—it was so far out of our control and our normal sense of safety. We've had an illusion here in this country that those kinds of things don't happen on our shores. So I think it was the first time where we felt really vulnerable.

Chris Williams: For me, there were two things that marked my early career because my first career was as a young adults pastor. I was pastoring in Colorado when Columbine happened. I'll never forget that April 20th day. And then similarly at 9/11, I think ultimately they actually had shaping and formative experiences for me ultimately entering into the therapeutic space.

But again, I just remember the sense of your own sense of helplessness or hopelessness, but also on the other side of that coin, the great need for shared experiences for each other, for a strong, loving presence. That goes back to why I think churches get packed in these times—because we need a place to share the experiences and to make sense of it. There's got to be a purpose beyond the tragedy.

Brian Perez: You mentioned Columbine and I think of everything else that has happened since 9/11, and school shootings and movie theater shootings. I mean, just a few weeks ago, the In-N-Out Burger in Idaho and all these things that people are going through. There's just the sense of, "I'm not safe anymore. I can't even go to my favorite place."

Some people, it's just despair. The news cycle is constantly telling us about something else that's going on. I think we think that this is all new, but I wonder: has it been going on for a really long time, but it's because of the way—I mean, we get pinged on our phone every time some disaster happens somewhere and we're just thinking that it's just out of control?

Chris Williams: We have more access to info—I was reading something a couple years ago that we have more access to information in a single day than what a person 150 years ago had access to in 150 years. So that puts it in perspective. As a kid, if I wanted to know something, an encyclopedia was something, or a newspaper. We have milliseconds to get all of that information now.

I've seen it over and over and over again: we are dealing with cultural and what I'd even say occupational hazards all around us. The information that we are fed is designed because it will get us to act the quickest. This is actually neurology. The part of our brain that is in survival mode, our amygdala, operates at about four billion bytes per second.

Our prefrontal cortex operates at about four million bytes per second. That's the difference between going 4,000 miles an hour and four miles an hour. So if you want a person to make a decision really, really quickly without having to think about it, you create a threat. It activates that survival part of their brain.

News media is not designed to get you to think rationally; it's designed to get you to think scaredly, fearfully. We are groomed towards fear and outrage and micro-dosed it over and over again, and our nervous systems are shot as a result. I'll never forget, I was in Nashville doing a presentation on trauma, the impacts of trauma long-term on this model that I had developed. It's based on getting stuck in cycles of fear and anger through our pain, and then how it makes horrible decisions and rash decisions and different things like that.

I remember afterwards, a guy that was there with a media consulting company came up to me and was like, "Oh my goodness, you just described how we get people to get clicks." Low and behold, he revealed to me that their biggest clients—one started with an FOX and the other one started with a CNN. They were the same company that was consulting the titles on their online articles for both organizations. And I'm like, "Wow." So our well-being is not in their best interest.

Brian Perez: That's an awful thing to think about. I'm getting traumatized over it! No, because we put so much stock into what's out there and both sides blame the other side of creating fake news and everything else. But it's just designed to constantly have us enraged and not trusting our neighbor and just wondering what's going on out there. It's just awful.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Makes me want to just go back to the Bible. It's never changing, it's the living, breathing word.

Chris Williams: This is really where I'm just like, man, I love the fact that I was fortunate enough to be born as an American and grow up in America. But one of the things that I have to come back to all the time—my faith is not in a country, in a political party, or definitely not a politician. My faith is in Christ. I don't want to oversimplify that, but I do want to oversimplify it for myself. Often times like maybe 9/11 is a time where we sit back and be like, let's put down our phones, let's put down our outrage and maybe let's go bake cookies for that neighbor that we're in conflict with and say, "Hey, today we're together. If you're doing good, my life is better."

Dr. Jill Hubbard: And that's the contrast—these horrible, horrific things happen but just like we were saying, there's good that can come out of it. So be part of the good.

Brian Perez: We talked about this last time we were on the show together, about the well-being of our neighbor. Chris, you gave the example of the woman that you were on a plane with, she was having a panic attack, you told her to reach over and grab your wrist, and that was just one of those things. But it just reminded me that people are hurting, our neighbors are hurting, and not just to do that cliche, "If there's anything I can do for you, let me know," but to actually reach out and get to know people more.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Which takes slowing down, which we were talking about in panic attacks. You have to slow down the breathing. We have no time to slow down today because we're constantly being fed, frantically.

Chris Williams: Panic attacks operate at 4,000 miles an hour. Calm, rational thinking operates at four miles an hour, which is basically—it's a fast pace, but that's walking speed. I often times use this with my clients that are struggling with anxiety, including myself: there is this unbelievable wisdom in this incredibly deep, theoretical, metaphorical, philosophical movie called *Cars*. Where Doc tells Lightning McQueen this: "If you want to go faster, you've got to learn how to slow down." Nothing is more true of that than how God has designed our best brain and our best brain activity.

Brian Perez: This is true. Thanks so much for watching us and listening today on New Life LIVE. We're going to take a quick break and we thank you for supporting us financially and by praying for us and for the people who call in and share what's going on in their lives. You're making a difference with your prayers and your financial support. You can learn more at newlife.com. We'll be right back.

Brian Perez: We are back on New Life LIVE. Thanks so much for joining us today. Brian Perez here with Dr. Jill Hubbard and Chris Williams. You know that you can call us when we're in the studio at 1-800-229-3000, but we've also got a couple of ways that you can reach out to us if you can't call in. You can leave us a voicemail or send us an email and the instructions on how to do everything are on our website, newlife.com/radio.

Here's one that Lynn sent in from Santa Barbara. She listens to the New Life LIVE podcast. Thank you, Lynn, for listening to the podcast. She says, "I'm so angry and sad of hearing my friend handling her situation. Am I a terrible friend if I tell her? Am I hiding if I don't?"

Here's the backstory: Lynn says, "I have a best friend of 40 years. She's been in a miserable marriage for the last 15-plus years, 10 years with known infidelity. She does not confront her husband or address it openly with her three kids—two are now college-age, one is in high school. They sleep in separate rooms; they've been doing that for the last 10 years. He often stays at work until 2:00 a.m. She considers her husband a workaholic, and he is. He has a crazy, demanding job and they are multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt."

"I've helped by giving a large sum of money toward the debt as a gift. I used to plan to pay all the debt off, but my own therapy has helped me stop trying to fix it. My friend is saying she is sad that when I went through a challenging thing myself, I didn't let her in on it until it was over. She is offended that I don't see her as able to have space for me for my emotional needs. She's also a therapist, now helping 30 clients per week, not to mention she often overfunctions for her children. It's hard to watch. She complains that I don't see her in as good of light compared to how she sees herself. I can't promise to hold in high regard remaining miserable for decades. However, I don't harp on anything ever. I just have limits to my ability to be close to this situation. What are your thoughts?"

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Wow. So they've been friends for 40 years, and the friend is a therapist. So the friend helps a lot of other people, but this Lynn is close enough to her where she gets to see behind the curtain and sees what's really going on. I think to see someone choosing to maintain a life that is less than desirable, in fact, hurtful, is painful.

I think if this person's a therapist, she may be sensing some of the gap that Lynn isn't sharing as much. I think I would lean more towards being honest about that. It's awful when you're in a relationship and you know something's off or there's an imbalance and yet you can't quite put your finger on it. So if they've been friends this long, I think to lovingly and kindly let her friend know that it is painful to watch.

Now, that being said, it's important to not lean in a judgmental, hypercritical way, because until you've walked in somebody's shoes, you may not understand why they would choose this. Disrupting, you know, this infidelity's been going on and it used to be, in ancient times, women lived with infidelity. They knew it was going on but they couldn't say anything because the lifestyle change was too great.

I know people today who do the same thing and women often have a fear of ending up as a bag lady or, especially if they've stayed at home with kids. Because you disrupt the family system that's been created and everyone's affected and financially—they're already struggling—you end up living on half or less. So there are reasons why people just kind of make these compromises.

But I think that God could use Lynn to at least say, "Can we start a conversation about this? I haven't walked in your shoes. I don't understand it and I don't understand how you could choose this. Help me understand, because I don't know how to come alongside you and it makes me want to pull back."

Chris Williams: I completely agree, because it sounds like Lynn's friend lives a chaotic life. If he's a workaholic—well, by the way, she is as well. 30 clients a week? That's 50, 60 hours. I'm telling you, for a therapist, that's beyond full-time. And they're hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. This just tells me that there are a lot of things that are out of control and chaotic. You don't want to put money into that because it's going to be a black hole.

But the other aspect of that is it's going to be hard, if not impossible, to be close to that because for this chaotic system to exist, Lynn's friend has to be in deep denial. You can't be close to denial because closeness requires transparency, it requires intimacy, and that's not possible in this situation. So there may be layers of boundaries and distancing that she needs to take in the relationship because it quite honestly can be toxic. That toxin can be contagious. But you can't just go away without saying something.

Brian Perez: Every day we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression, all kinds of ways. Wouldn't you love to be part of a rescue team? Don't miss your opportunity to be part of something that changes lives every single day because every one matters. Your generosity helps find them.

And you know, we've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life, and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99 For The One is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE or newlife.com/99for1. Join the mission, rescue the one and restore the many.

Brian Perez: All right, we are back here on New Life LIVE. My name is Brian Perez, I'm here with clinical psychologist Dr. Jill Hubbard and licensed marriage and family therapist Chris Williams. You might have heard us mention the Hope Together conference that is happening next month. It's in Allen, Texas, it's also happening online and we're really excited because Becky Brown, the president of New Life Ministries, and several other members of the New Life team are going to be part of Hope Together this year. Hope Together is happening October 1st through the 3rd in Allen, Texas, and online. You can find out more on their website, hopetogether.com. Let me give you a promo code: NLM20. It saves you 20% on registration.

All right, so here's another question that was submitted online at newlife.com/radio. Sarah in Omaha, Nebraska, she listens to the New Life LIVE podcast. She writes, "How do I go forward with my parents? They've had mental health challenges my whole life and the biggest issue I think is emotional immaturity. Over the years, they have a pattern of getting mad and then not talking to people.

It's always been that everyone else is supposed to be perfect and treat them perfect, and they can be rude and talk down to people, etc. and that's okay. But the minute anyone—doctors, family, neighbors, etc.—does any little thing wrong toward them, they are offended and get mad. My kids have moved out on their own and I called my mom to let her know where they moved and after eight months, she answered the phone and she had zero interest.

She said, 'Oh, that's nice,' and then started talking about the weather and then we finished our conversation. That's the first time we had talked in months because she would never answer my calls or text messages. I don't know what I'm supposed to do going forward as a Christian. I'm trying to keep the door open and kind of keep in touch, but she literally had no desire to talk about what was going on in our lives or with the kids.

Previously she was in touch with them, but since she got mad about something now, I guess her love is conditional. Do I have to keep trying to talk to her? Do I try to invite her to holidays or gatherings even though I know that her attitude and vibe will ruin it for the rest of us? How far do I have to go to keep trying to involve her when it's clear that her and my dad do not want to be involved?

And what do I say to other people and my children who wonder why I don't have a relationship with my mom anymore after I had kept the relationship going for 25 years? I have no other explanation except the fact that she has mental illness issues and my dad is just going along with her. I've never had an emotional relationship with him either."

Chris Williams: That is a lot. I think the most important thing is the movement towards acceptance. Especially when it comes to the closer the relationships are, especially parent-child—who we want and need our parent to be may not be the person that they can show up as. I ask my clients all the time: "Okay, this person has shown you who they are for, let's say, you've been alive 56 years. So for 56 years, this is who they are. I think it's time to believe them."

They keep telling you who they are over and over and over. But beyond that, maybe there's glimpses that they've shown something different, whatever the case may be, but if this is who your mom shows herself to be and your dad that goes along with it, when we start with the reality of the acceptance, it does mean that we're probably going to have to face some grief. It probably means you're going to have to face some real disappointment and hurt as a result of that.

But when we move through that and get to our own sense of healing and security through that, what we're able to do is then put the relationship in your home court, not theirs. Meaning, you're not doing it for them because they don't have any interest. So if you want to reach out and invite them to something because you want to do that, great. If you don't, that's okay too. And on their side of the relationship, whether you do or you don't will not make a difference. So you do it for yourself. And what you tell people is like, "I have a relationship with my parents on my terms."

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Relationships are two-way streets. I can't be both sides of the relationship. Sometimes that's what a child tries to do. It's like, okay, I'm going to hit the ball to you, now I'm going to run over to your side and I'm going to hit it back. They keep telling you who they are. And with emotional immaturity, leaning towards mental illness people, if you don't get help in life, things get worse. So they will become more entrenched in their distorted thinking and thoughts.

It sounds like these parents are easily wounded and that they need everything to revolve around them and how they see things. Everybody else is wrong, they're right. So no matter what you do, Sarah, it's not going to be right. It's not going to move the needle. It might be good to get my book, *Forgiving Our Fathers and Mothers*, because it goes into this. It's you deciding what type of person do you want to be.

Be an honoring person that acknowledges that they hold the position of parents, and you can even choose to invite them with some parameters around that. Like, this is what we're going to be doing for the holiday. Let's say if their issue was drinking: "We'd love for you to come, however, if you are drinking then we will be asking you to leave," or "We'd like you to come and not drink."

The best you can, put parameters around it to minimize them being able to ruin an event. And then accepting what they decide to do. It is hard when they want you to make them feel good. And usually with mental illness like this, it's all about "What are you doing for me?" almost as if children are supposed to serve, caretake the parents' emotional well-being.

But here's the other thing: how old are parents? Is this a trend which it sounds like it has been in place, but if it's getting worse, at what play does drugs or alcohol, prescription medications, and dementia play? Because with dementia, they start losing interest even more so in your life. They have an inability to carry on both sides of the conversation. So they may tell you lots of things about them that even seem really dull and important, and "Why wouldn't you be interested in your grandchildren?" is they start losing the ability to ask those questions and to have it register as important to them. So that's important to recognize too.

Chris Williams: I think that's a really good point. Acceptance then creates new expectations, accurate expectations. I'm not calling my mom to express how my kids are doing or what's up to their lives because she's not interested. So I'm no longer hurt by that, I just accept that as a baseline. And so I check in, see if they're alive, see how they're doing, talk about the weather, spend 15 minutes and be good to go.

Brian Perez: That's so difficult, though, to come to that realization that you're not going to have that relationship with mom or dad. Jill, you mentioned that it could be maybe the beginning stages of dementia.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Right, because I think it comes on and you don't expect that because maybe they've been cantankerous for a while or difficult. So you think it's more of the same. And especially when you're around someone a lot ongoing, you don't realize. And so then when they start acting different or indifferent, it can be a little bit puzzling.

I remember I had a neighbor who lived behind me and we would often talk. Then one day I went out to take the trash out and she looked at me with the dirtiest look, slammed her trash down, and went in the house. I hadn't seen her in a while and I'm like, "Oh, what did I do?" Well, come to find out she died shortly after and she had dementia. She didn't know who I was.

And there are different phases of dementia. There is a phase where they get really angry and combative and pushing away at caregivers, and that is a really difficult stage. Often though, that's followed by a really sweet stage. If you make it to that stage, that's much better and easier to deal with. But in the beginning, I think we forget the medical piece. We forget that maybe there's decline happening.

And I think we don't want to think that. We think we're going to have them forever. And they don't often, they hide it as best they can so they're not treated differently.

Chris Williams: And so that they don't lose some of their freedoms as well. No one wants their driver's license taken away. I've seen it happen to people and it's scary for them. It's really important that we continue the work of destigmatizing it so that we can do early interventions. Discussions that we're having in our family around aging parents is that this is a reality.

We want to be able to get ahead of it, we want to be able to do medical interventions ahead of it. If you're suffering from dementia, you are not a bad person. There's something wrong happening to you, but there's nothing wrong with you.

I try to get behind the person's eyes. Talking about aging with older people in my life, the fear of people kind of treating you as if you're already gone because "Oh, now you're starting to get repetitive and not making a lot of sense," and so it's like you're already dead. Or kids kind of standing up and taking charge. People want to go out gradually, gracefully, with dignity. They don't want to lose their independence. So I think as people get older, they try to hide these things as much as possible so they're not treated differently.

Brian Perez: A Facebook friend of mine posted this recently and it was just something she shared from some other page. But it says: "If I ever get dementia, I'd like my family to hang this wish list up on the wall where I live. I want them to remember these things:"

- Every time you enter the room, announce yourself. "Hi, it's Brian."

- Never ask, "Do you know who I am?" This causes anxiety.

- Embrace my reality. If I think my dead friend is still alive or if I think we're visiting my parents for dinner, let me believe those things. I'll be much happier for it.

- Don't talk to me like a child. Talk to me like the adult that I am.

- I still want to enjoy the things that I've always enjoyed. Help me find a way to exercise, read, and visit with friends.

- Ask me to tell you a story from the past.

- If I become agitated, take the time to figure out what's bothering me.

- Treat me the way you would want to be treated.

- Don't talk about me as if I'm not in the room.

Because you could be in a room with someone and four or five of you in the room and you're talking about the person even though the person is in the room and, I mean, that must be something.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: That's a great list. Remember, the brain is desperate to try to grab and figure out reality, so stories get conflated. You don't need to correct, you don't need to tell them they're lying. It didn't happen that way. They're conflating stories; it's okay.

There was a situation in our family years ago where someone kept leaving the house. That was a safety issue. They said they had to go and get an award. So what someone in our family did is we had a lunch, we invited some important people from the past, and we gave this person an award. And honored them so that they didn't have to leave to go to the place where they thought they needed to go to get the award.

There was no harm done. This person had been brilliant; he deserved an award for heaven's sake! So we made up an award and he was so happy. Joy was brought to him and no harm was done, and yet it kept him safer.

Brian Perez: That's great. Thanks so much for watching and listening to New Life LIVE today. Remember to pray for us and the people who call in and write in with their questions. Thank you for supporting us financially. You can find out all about us and keep up with what we're doing by following us on social media, bookmark our website, newlife.com. Sign up for our newsletter. If you're watching right now on Facebook or YouTube, make sure to like today's video and subscribe to our page so that you'll always find out what we're doing. Have a great weekend. We'll talk to you Monday.

New Life: Thanks so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember, we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to newlife.com to find out more. And thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing and we're so glad that you're here.