New Life LIVE

Guest (Male): Welcome to the New Life Live podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's Word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: Hey, welcome to New Life Live. It's so good to have you with us today. My name is Brian Perez, and we're going to be in the studio for two hours. So call in to 1-800-229-3000. Let's get those issues resolved. You've got emotional issues or issues with your family, your loved ones. Could be people that you haven't seen in years. Maybe you're estranged from your family. Well, let's talk about that today here at New Life Live at 1-800-229-3000.

We've got clinical psychologist Dr. Jill Hubbard here today. Hello, Jill. Hello, also Dr. Jim Burns, the founder of Homeward. He's also a parenting expert and the author of the book, *When Your Adult Child Strays*, which is available in the NewLife.com store. Dr. Jim, how are you?

Jim Burns: I am very good. You know, I know people always call, but if they didn't, then that would mean I'd just get to ask Jill my issues because she'd be the one I'd go to. She could straighten you and me out. Oh, man, here we go. That's not bad. But you said how you doing because you wanted me to talk about something.

A lot of times here at New Life, we talk about pornography, and we have great stuff with Every Man's Battle. One of the things we probably don't talk enough about is kids and porn. In fact, when you really look at the statistics, today boys are seeing porn at a younger and younger age. We're talking like nine and ten. If you Google me, you'll see those two numbers.

Young women, at one time when I was first talking about this, it was like 14. Today it's much younger, like 11.9. Sometimes they see it accidentally, sometimes they see it because their friends showed them porn. But nevertheless, I think parents and actually grandparents—we've got a lot of grandparents who also listen to this show—I want to give you some thoughts on this if your child is caught viewing porn.

You may not like the first thing I'm going to say, but don't freak out, okay? We make a mistake sometimes by freaking out. I know that's natural, and our natural reaction is to panic, and we have too much emotion, too much anger, and we let that complicate the matter. I'm not saying you don't deal with it. I'm just saying it's probably better not to freak out. Take a deep breath when you find this out and realize that it's not the end of the world.

Most kids who view pornography—and I'm not saying it's good, believe me, I'm very concerned about pornography in kids' lives—but most kids aren't going to become sex offenders, okay? They've seen it; maybe their friends showed this to them. So it's better for us not to freak out because you want to be the parent or the grandparent or the auntie or the uncle or somebody who is safe. You're not going to be safe if you do what one man did in South Carolina who wrote me this note. He said, "I took my Mac AirBook, which cost $2,000, and as soon as I saw it, I just put it over my knee and I broke it." He goes, "Then I had to buy a new Mac Air." Probably wasn't the best thing for his kid; scared his kid to death.

Secondly, and this is very important, make it a teachable moment. Your long-term goal is to teach healthy sexuality to your kids. By the way, all studies say that the more positive value-centered sex education kids receive from home, the less promiscuous and the less confused they'll be. So you make this a teachable moment by saying, "Honey, it's not this. This is not healthy sexuality. It's this," and you teach them the good and right stuff.

Create consequences within reason. If this is an accident, because kids do see it sometimes accidentally, it's not as big of a deal. If it is their first-time offender, don't punish them for the rest of their life. But it's progressive in this. Also, put boundaries and things around it, but it's your wake-up call. Then find helpful resources. One of the places you can go is here at New Life because we can help kids too. We can help them make right and wise decisions. We can help you help your kids make right and wise decisions. So that's a thought on porn. There's so much more we could talk about.

Jill Hubbard: Well, and I love, Jim, that you have addressed kids and purity and sexuality. Your books are great resources for that because I think parents are like deers in headlights. Nobody knows how to do it.

Jim Burns: No, we didn't receive good healthy sex education, so we don't know what to do.

Brian Perez: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live. Hey, if you or someone you love is struggling, let them know about Covenant Hills. For over 30 years, Covenant Hills has helped men and women find lasting freedom from addiction through Christ-centered, clinically excellent care. With gender-specific programs, they offer residential treatment, day treatment, and ongoing support that heals the whole person: body, mind, and spirit. Here's the phone number: 1-800-NO-ABUSE. Or you can visit the Covenant Hills website, covhills.com.

This is New Life Live. I'm your host, Brian Perez. 1-800-229-3000 is the number to call. Dr. Jim Burns was just talking about kids and viewing pornography, and sometimes they stumble upon it, sometimes their kids show it to them. You've written a book on this, *A Student's Guide to Sexual Integrity*.

Jim Burns: Right. I've even written books for three-to-five-year-olds, six-to-nine-year-olds. Again, it's not like heavy-duty stuff. In fact, we don't even bring up porn in those books, but it's "God created your body, God created sex." The reason I do that is because I want parents to be those safe people. Jill and I were talking at the break. We didn't get good positive healthy sex education from our parents. That's how most of us are, so we don't know what to do.

Jill Hubbard: Well, right. And it's like it becomes awkward. You talk to them about all kinds of things, but when it comes to this topic, people are awkward. People stumble over their words.

Jim Burns: No, and I think most of the time it wasn't like my girls—I had all girls—they weren't coming up and saying, "Dad, let's have a talk about sex education. What do you think about..." whatever. They didn't do that. So then it's awkward because you're looking for ways to do it. I always call it planned spontaneity. It's actually better to have that conversation when you're watching a television show. I remember we were watching some television show, and there was something on masturbation. Kathy put it on pause, looked at me, pointed at me, and said, "Let's go." So I said, "What do you guys think about that?" And of course, my girls were different ages, but we're all watching it; it's a family show, but it came up somehow. One didn't even know what it was, and the other one went, "If this is gross, I don't want you to talk about it. Let's don't talk about this." And the other one actually kind of dialogued. It's just every kid is different, too.

Jill Hubbard: I know for me, I found when my kids were young, like starting to have conversations when they're young about their body, about what's appropriate, what's not appropriate. I had to intentionally tell myself, just say the words. Say the words in a matter-of-fact way, not awkwardly, because this is our body so that you can be comfortable with having future conversations.

Jim Burns: Sure. So if we do it only through shame and guilt, then that's not—we're not going to be that safe person. So I think it's important for us at the same time we have to address it. Porn, you've got to address the issue if a kid has porn on their computer or on their phone or whatever it might be. But it's so key that they understand that we still can be safe and in some ways disagree with their actions and even give them consequences for some of those actions, sure.

Brian Perez: What about for single parents? Because single parents of opposite-sex children—so it could be a single mom with a son or a single dad with a daughter—and sometimes they're thinking, "I can't address this. Maybe they're going to school, maybe the school should talk about this." Is that always the best thing to do?

Jill Hubbard: You know, for lack of someone there, silence isn't an option. So I stepped in. I stepped in with my son and my nephew and started reading them the *Preparing for Every Young Man's Battle*, one of those books. And my nephew was like, "Aunt Jill, this is so weird that we're talking about this."

Jim Burns: Today if we were talking to them, they would say, "I appreciated it. It was weird, it was awkward, but we do it." You know, I think that single parents—and Jill, you can correct me if you think I'm wrong—but I think some of them are some of the greatest parents. They don't know they're busy. They say, "Oh, where's the husband when I need him to have those kind of conversations?" But I think they do a great job a lot of times. I think you're right if you're in a situation where you have an opposite-sex child, then you just go, "Hey, look at buddy, we're going to talk about blank today, and here's how it is. We're just going to do that." Say it ahead of time: "This is going to be awkward." And just let it be known that it's going to be awkward.

Then also, I think it's really cool that churches do today a much better job. So maybe there's a youth pastor or there's an uncle or somebody. You said you had a conversation with your nephew. Well, how beautiful is that? Well, you had a conversation with your nephew because he didn't get it from other places. So I think some of us who are grandparents or some of us who are aunts and uncles can take over with that. And a lot of times it's easier to actually read a book together. At Homeward, we have a course called *A Student's Guide to Sexual Intimacy*. We just tell people to put it on your phone and watch it for eight minutes and then have a conversation about it. We even give you the questions. Then you don't have to feel like "I have to come up with this stuff." Today there's really good resources out there.

Jill Hubbard: Right. And as my son got older, it's like, "Here's some resources for you. If you have questions, so we can talk about this." But like giving him access to things that I approved of.

Jim Burns: One woman said to me not too long ago, "You know, my son doesn't read, but I handed him your book on sexual integrity, and I could see him reading it and then he'd put it aside." It was like he needed a brown paper bag around a God-honoring book on sexuality. But he was going to read that, see? And they might not read it—they're going to look at the table of contents and they're going to go to chapter five because that's what they really want to know about. It's great. Today the number one place kids get their sex education is the internet, and I use the internet every day, but I'm not sure I trust the internet for good sex education.

Brian Perez: Well, Jill, you mentioned a couple of other books that we have in the NewLife.com store: Stephen Arterburn's *Every Young Man's Battle* and *Preparing Your Son for Every Man's Battle*. So you can get those in the NewLife.com store. But yeah, the prevalence of online porn and everything else, and Jim, you mentioned that don't freak out if you notice that your child or grandchild has stumbled upon this or whatever. But then you said most of these—it's not like everybody who views this is going to turn into some sexual predator or anything like that. But do you think maybe because people are saying, "Well, yeah, that's true, that's probably not going to happen in my family, so I'll just not make a big deal out of it in the sense that I'm not going to talk about it at all. If they learn about it online, if they learn about it from their friends, that's fine because it's not going to affect them negatively"?

Jim Burns: Brian, you're right. And I don't agree with that because a lot of people will say, "Well, look at, they're going to hear it, and they're hearing this from their friends all the time," or sometimes dads do that where they go, "Look at, it's going to happen. Just let it happen." I don't think you do that. I think you make it as a learning experience where you want them to know that this is not healthy sexuality, and it's not treating women right, it's not treating men right. It's really a false narrative. And it's a huge narrative. You look at comedy today, and the comics always talk about them looking at porn. And I think how sad that is. I don't want them as that as my role model. And yet at the same time, we can't do what that man did. Can you imagine taking the Mac Air and just breaking it over his knee? $2,000. He didn't need to do that. But and sometimes you have to go into your back room and scream and into the pillow. I get that. But it's really key that we take a hold of this. We're a generation away from even more wacky stuff if we don't take hold. But you know what? A lot of kids are making some good decisions right now. We need to celebrate that too. We always hear the bad stuff, but parents who are talking to their kids have greater results. So I think they need to do it.

Jill Hubbard: Well, and I think as parents, it's always good to reflect, "Okay, how did I hear about things? How did I learn? Was I glad I learned that way? Was it helpful?" Reflect on that and then realize our kids have access to so much more than we did. So then how do I wish it had happened for me? And then how can I intervene now, knowing that it's at their fingertips at younger and younger age?

Jim Burns: Totally at their fingertips, too. So we have to be so, so careful.

Jill Hubbard: Yeah. So, yeah, they're going to be exposed one way or another. But if we've intervened, we can influence that. Just like you were saying, capitalizing on moments. When my son was little and the Victoria's Secret commercials came up, it was like, "Okay, we look away, we look away." If there's any nudity or, you know, because then opportunity to talk about how do we treat women.

Jim Burns: Right, exactly.

Brian Perez: Yeah, it's in the video games and everything. Now it's not Pac-Man anymore. It's the games that are out there now are just—

Jim Burns: A little emoji-eating thing.

Brian Perez: Yeah. With AI, that's another story. Well, you're beginning to see more and more kids say that some of their best friends are AI bots. That's not a good thing. No. So as parents, part of this is not—we're talking about porn here, but we have to make sure that we do create a media-safe home and we must become students of the culture. It doesn't mean we have to be IT executives. It just simply means that we do have to know how to kind of handle what are they going through. And you can learn a lot from your kids by just asking them questions. So what's going—my 10-year-old, I said to him the other day, kind of out of the blue—it was a little awkward, probably, but he took it pretty good.

Jill Hubbard: Your grandson?

Jim Burns: My grandson, my 10-year-old grandson. Thank you. Wow, Jim, you're looking good for 10. My 10-year-old grandson. But yeah, thank you for the prompt. I mean, I'm an old parent, but no, no, oh geez. I understand why you have parents when you're young. We watch our grandkids and we go, we're exhausted.

But you know, I said, "Hey, buddy, do people your age, do they look at porn out in the—at the school?" And he said, "Papa J, you have no idea." And we had this great conversation. I could tell that he had probably not, the way he was talking. And two, he was very aware of this. And I said, "Well, you know what? You've got to have a conversation with your dad about this sometime. I gave your dad this little book that he could read." And he goes, "Cool." And then he goes, "Can I go swimming?" We have a pool. "Can I go swimming now?" He was gone. So I didn't get to talk to him, but great.

Jill Hubbard: But you planted seeds and you made it safe for him to talk.

Jim Burns: Now I can tell my son-in-law, Steve, "Dude, it's time, buddy. Make it happen."

Brian Perez: You talked about the dad who broke the Mac Air over his knee, and I think everybody had a collective pain in their back pocket right when they heard that story. Like, ouch. But so we're not saying, though, to purge all tech from the home—don't have computers, don't have cell phones. I mean, that's something we can talk about: cell phones. When should a child have a cell phone? Some of them have a, you know, four- or five-year-old.

Jim Burns: No, and that's way too young. And today you're seeing a backlash on that, and you're actually seeing the experts who are talking about screen time or whatnot, they just keep putting it farther and farther toward later teens, even, in terms of having access to digital devices. Well, they're doing that for a purpose because this earlier generation, we messed up by letting our kids have this stuff too. They have access to the world now. You're not going to let your kid, if they're nine, go to the mall and just play at the mall. You're not going to let them go to any movie they want. So what are we doing handing them something that has access to the world? It's not healthy. They can't handle it.

Brian Perez: Now we've got a couple of minutes till the break. Nate, we're going to talk to you when we come back from the break here on New Life Live. The phone number to call, by the way, is 1-800-229-3000, and we're going to be in the studio for two hours today. While we agree that not every guy who views porn is going to turn into some monster, there are things that can happen. For example, later in life they get married and they still have this addiction problem and they wind up betraying their spouse. And that's something that happens because we hear about it all the time.

Jill Hubbard: Well, and spouses do feel betrayed by pornography. You know, people want to define, "Well, it wasn't skin on skin, so it's not technically cheating." I don't care. Spouses feel betrayed by it.

Brian Perez: Sure, yeah, no, that's important to understand. And if that's part of your story, ladies, we have an intensive coming up in November. It's called Restore: Healing After Betrayal. If you're faced with betrayal, it's easy to get overwhelmed with the enormity of the situation. As if the betrayal wasn't bad enough, then there's the legal, financial, social, physical, emotional, and mental toll it takes on you. You feel pressured to figure everything out while you're still reeling from the pain and confusion you're experiencing. If you can relate, then join us at the next Restore. It's happening November 13th—that's the date it begins—and that's in Washington, D.C. You can get all the details about it at NewLife.com.

So, like you said, Jill, it's not just for women who have been betrayed through affairs and things, but just—it could be porn, it could be if they're going to strip clubs, whatever the case might be.

Jill Hubbard: Sure, just men that can't kind of keep their eyes in control. Even emotional affairs. When you're walking along with your husband and he's constantly glancing at other bodies, that feels really bad.

Brian Perez: Yeah, it really is. Today we talk about the porn issue, but it's broader than that in terms of how do men think about women, how do they deal with the workplace, how do they treat others, what are their boundaries? Those are all important issues. So you can find out more about Restore at NewLife.com or by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE.

And guys, if you're listening to this and this hits home because you're dealing with some sexual integrity issues, the Every Man's Battle workshop begins next week on Friday, the 11th of September. You can still sign up for it. Go to our website, NewLife.com, or call 1-800-NEW-LIFE to find out more about it as well.

We're going to take a quick break and then we'll go to the phones. Nate in Butler, Pennsylvania, you'll be our first caller. And everyone else, we're going to be here for two hours today, so there's plenty of time to call in to talk to Dr. Jill and Dr. Jim at 1-800-229-3000. We'll be right back on New Life Live.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, visit NewLife.com. Now back to New Life Live. Nate's in Butler, Pennsylvania. Welcome to New Life Live, and thanks for listening to us on SiriusXM Channel 131. The phone number to call is 1-800-229-3000. What's up, Nate?

Nate: Hey, thank you all for having me on the show. Well, I'm in a situation to where I'm a little concerned for my daughter's sake. She's eight years old. My wife has decided that she wants to separate and asked me to leave the house August 1st. I've been separated from my daughter from that amount of time, and I'm just worried that it's now taking a toll on her because she's now lashing out by, you know, treating her grandmother with disrespect, being mean to her mother, not listening. Every time I would talk to her, she's like, "Daddy, I really want you here and I don't understand why you're not here." It breaks my heart because I want to be there, I don't want to have to go through this separation, but I can't seem to figure out how to handle it when it comes to her.

Jill Hubbard: Wow. Well, Nate, I'm glad you're considering all that, and it sounds like you're in a situation that you don't want to be in. Separation, divorce is devastating for children. Adults like to comfort themselves by saying children are resilient. Well, yes, do they bounce back? But they absorb. If you think about it, your primary caregivers, your parents, the ones that you have depended on since birth, the ones that are your whole world, and now one of them is not there—that has a huge impact on a child.

So I'm not surprised that your daughter is showing evidence of that. I mean, it sounds like she's a child where she shows it outwardly instead of just turning inward, which can be helpful. She's letting everyone around her know, "This isn't right. My world has been turned upside down and this isn't right." So, Nate, I think that whatever your part is in the separation, that needs to be worked on. Really reflect and evaluate because most women don't ask a man to leave unless something's been going on for quite a while. Unless it's something with them, right? But a lot of times she's been telling you, perhaps, for a long time and couldn't get your attention. Could that be the case, Nate?

Nate: Yes. I recently was serving as a pastor and I became a pastor while I was in school to do that. She would repeatedly say, "You need to find yourself a Christian woman. I don't want God in my life. I don't feel like I need to have a relationship with God." And I'm the type of person that God is everything to me; He's my center. I mean, I rely on God for everything. When we were going through that, it was just "I don't want to be a pastor's wife. I think you need to find somebody else." I heard it, but everybody I would talk to was like, "Well, you need to love her more. You need to give her more attention and be there for her." So I tried all that and it never really—it seemed like the harder I tried, the more it pushed her away.

Jill Hubbard: So when you married, were you not walking with the Lord?

Nate: I was.

Jill Hubbard: Was she?

Nate: She was not. She got baptized because she thought that it would—she thought that she would have to get baptized so it wouldn't ruin my calling to God. I asked her, I said, "Why did you get baptized?" She said, "Because, you know, I want our daughter to see being an example to our daughter." And so she ended up getting baptized because of my career and because she wanted to be an example to our daughter.

Jill Hubbard: Okay, so Nate, right from the get-go, you in a sense were sort of unequally yoked if you were walking with the Lord and married someone who wasn't even sure they were a believer, it sounds like. Nonetheless, you're married now, and I think there's perhaps a lot of insecurity on your wife's part about this and about maybe even her understanding of the Lord. It sounds like she's one of those that will push away instead of leaning in.

I don't know what her issues are around performance and expectations and people looking to her, but it can feel like a lot of pressure for wives of pastors. So I wish you guys could go to our Marriage Intensive to kind of explore just under the guise of we need to co-parent. So let's do some work so that we're on the same page and we understand where each other's coming from. And also I think really needing to hear her about what she's afraid of in terms of you moving forward in your calling and her being your partner. That can look like all different kinds of things. There's all different kinds of pastor's wives. There's some that you never see at church, and that's okay. Jim, I'm sure you have lots to say on this too.

Jim Burns: I've got some thoughts, and I actually have deep hope, too, from what you've said, Nate. Nate, I appreciate your energy and enthusiasm even in the midst of a really tough time. Separation. So she asked for a separation. In your mind, is this a separation to kind of work possibly work some things out and she'd be open to it, or is this a separation where we're moving to divorce because that's what she wants?

Nate: It's a separation where we're moving towards the divorce because that's what she wants.

Jim Burns: Got it. Understand. Okay. Well, Jill said something right at the very end that I had already written down, and that's, if the primary issue is about her role in the church as a wife of a pastor, if that's the primary issue—I mean, there's always other issues too, of course, but if that's the primary issue—there's some pretty interesting role models out there. There are people who are co-pastors; they do things together. But there are also people where you don't really see the spouse much.

I worked at a church, I was a youth pastor at a church where we never saw the spouse, and she was a little bit like your wife. She didn't come, and that was a heartbreak for him, but I really appreciated and respected and admired how our pastor handled that. He didn't put her down. I have no idea what their conversations were like at home, but he said, "I can live like this. I have a calling; the calling is not on her right now, but the calling is on me." Our pastor, the church I go to, which I love, my church, and our pastor is a dynamic pastor—his wife, in the middle of when they had little kids, kind of more the age of your daughter, she didn't go to church for two years. Really didn't tell anybody; she just didn't go to church because she was having her moments. Today she is the head of our prayer ministry, and she obviously came back.

But without our pastor—he did such a good job of not putting her in a spot. The old idea of a pastor's wife playing the piano and being all the missionary groups, that's not the way it has to be. So if she felt secure in your love, I just wonder if there might be a better option. Because you're separated and you're not at divorce yet, because you're separated, I just wonder if she would be willing to do what Jill said. Sometimes I find that co-parenting—because like she said, she wanted to be—she got baptized because of your daughter and you and things like that so—

Jill Hubbard: So what's where's the disconnect for her? And what does she see as her calling? Like how could you support her in something she wants to pursue?

Jim Burns: That's a good thought.

Jill Hubbard: Like does she feel like, "Oh, my life is over because he wants to be a pastor, so I have to leave him"?

Jim Burns: And does she think that she has to be a certain type of pastor's wife that she doesn't have to?

Jill Hubbard: Right, right. But maybe she has a calling to do something completely different that's not really in the Christian realm.

Jim Burns: Exactly. Yeah, no, I know people where that's the case. It's harder, no doubt. But it's not impossible. Even people—I know people who have been in the pastor—I'm not telling you to do this, Nick, but I know people who have been in the pastor and say, "You know, I'm going to take a year off of this and I'm going to focus on our family and our marriage." That doesn't mean that my calling is gone, but I'm just going to take a little break from that. It's really hard when you have a calling and you're as passionate as you are. But I'm not saying to do that, but those are—there are other options here than getting a divorce.

Because like Jill said at the beginning, it's not the end for an eight-year-old, but it really is tough. Especially, you've only been separated for a month. So I find a lot of people who have been separated—sometimes a separation is good because you kind of look at it and go, "Wow, I got a lot better thing than I thought I had," and your wife may be thinking that too. And she hears your daughter with the concerns too. What do you think about all that we're kind of throwing at you?

Jill Hubbard: I know, I'm like, we're like talking about your life and you're just—are we even close, Nate?

Nate: Yes, I mean, it goes a little bit deeper than that. It comes down to like, you know, with her because I've talked to her. I've tried to be like, "Okay, so let's try to figure this out." One thing that kept coming up over and over and over is like the responsibility thing where it's like, "I don't want to feel responsible for my husband. I don't want to feel responsible for my daughter. I want that freedom. I never wanted to get married, I never wanted to have a child. Now here we are." And then the whole pastor thing came on board with it.

I was like, "We definitely should have talked about this at the very beginning." And the church that I'm involved with wasn't really the biggest help because they were like, "Well, what's stopping you guys from getting married?" Because we had a child out of wedlock. It happened right when I started my walk with God. I got baptized, me and her broke it off in the beginning. I got baptized because I gave my life to God, was a deacon. And then she gave me a call two months later and was like, "Hey, I'm pregnant." And I was like, "Okay, well what do you want to do?" She's like, "Well, I think we should make it work."

And so we had a retired pastor sitting there saying, "You know, hey, what's preventing you guys from getting married?" I said, "Well, money. We've got to find a place to get married. We want to have a wedding." And it kind of was a pressure on me and on her because he was like, "Well, if you happen not to get married, then we're going to put you on a disciplinary because you're living in sin." And I'm like, "What in the world?" Because she was—and then she's not baptized at that time and I'm like, "Well, there's not a pastor who's going to marry us."

Jill Hubbard: Right. So Nate, I'm sorry, I'm going to interrupt you because look at all the things. I mean, one, you know, this is why doing things out of order, God advises against it, but it happens, right? Because then all of the decisions that were made and the pressures. And so it sounds like that typical scenario of she never got to kind of sow her oats before she was saddled with all this responsibility. And now you being a pastor is just more of that. So instead of having the joy of the Lord, she's feeling the burden of the church that's been weighing so heavy on you guys underneath kind of all the rules.

And so she's trying to escape that. And so it's very understandable, and I think you need to give her a lot of empathy around that. But I would ask her, "What is it that you think you want to do outside of marriage that you're unable to do inside marriage?" Because that's the myth: that "once I'm not married, I'll be free." And that usually is not the case.

Nate, thanks for calling us today here at New Life Live. Stay on the phone and we'll let you know more information about the Intimacy and Marriage Intensive that begins in just a few weeks. And we also suggested counseling—that could be couples counseling or just counseling for you yourself because you're going to have to go through life one way or the other, either with her or without her, so you need to make sure that you become a whole person. We've also got a tip sheet available called "How to Become Your Wife's Hero" because like we all agree here in the studio, it may not be too late.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, visit NewLife.com. Now back to New Life Live. Every day we see evidence of how much this world needs what we do here at New Life Ministries. I mean, so far this week we've talked to Judy and Renee and Samantha and Nate just a little bit ago, and it's all because of your financial support that we are continuing to be able to do what we've been doing for almost 40 years now. Not just the radio show, but also podcasts and intensives, people call to connect with a counselor, a life recovery group. People are taking a step toward a better future by registering for a webinar, all because there's confidence that the way we combine clinical help with biblical wisdom, the way we've been doing it for almost 40 years, does lead to transformation and freedom.

We wouldn't be here to meet people in the hard places of life without the support of our listeners and we're so thankful for those who give. I want to invite you to make a gift to New Life today. The help we provide is dependent on support and every gift helps. You can go to NewLife.com to make a donation or call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. You can text NLM to 28950. You can make a large gift, small gift, monthly gift as a 99-for-the-one partner or a one-time gift. All are appreciated. Thank you so much for making a difference in the lives of the people who call into us here at New Life.

Let's talk to Al in Allentown, Pennsylvania, who listens to us on the New Life app. Sounds like a follow-up call from something we were discussing earlier. Hi there, Al.

Al: Hi, hi. Yeah, I appreciate you all. I was listening to your program for teaching, trying to teach children about healthy ways of sexuality. And I unfortunately got pregnant at 15, married at 15, and wasn't my mom encouraged me—I didn't have to, but I did. And anyway, I have—was raised with a lot of sisters, my dad and mom. And then I had a daughter and then I had a son.

And when he turned—I guess he was about eight or nine, ten, I don't remember—I saw him in his room playing with himself. And I didn't know what to do as a mom. I was by that time I was divorced from my husband, and I just disciplined him. I still feel guilty, even though he's a grown man and he has a daughter who's now in college doing well. I just—I just—I feel like I really failed as a parent. I feel like I really didn't treat him right at that time because I didn't know what to do. My response was, like you said, I overreacted. And that's why I'm calling. I did, I had a hard time letting my children know that I'm sorry for any of my failures as a young mom. And my son even said, "Mom, you know, you believe in Jesus and your sins are taken care of, and I accept that." But I still feel bad times when I think about how I treated him.

Brian Perez: Yeah, those things we did in the past can sometimes come back and just haunt us. What would you guys say to Al?

Jim Burns: I have a question, Al, and I feel your pain. We've all blown it; believe me, every listener right now or watcher on our YouTube, they've all had these moments where they go, "I can't believe I just said that to my kid." And but you've talked with him, and in some ways what you're saying is your son has said, "Mom, it's not a big deal, I'm over that." So you've kind of received forgiveness from him, but you haven't forgiven yourself. Is that what I'm hearing?

Al: I guess that's true, I guess that's true. I know God's forgiven me. I just—I guess I haven't forgiven myself.

Jill Hubbard: Well, one thing, too, because you're right, we all have—I have regrets, Al, of things that I wish I could go back and redo. So we all get triggered and some people, you know, the fight or freeze or flight. And it sounds like you kind of froze in that instance and you didn't know how to lean into it. There could be all kinds of reasons for that. And being a single mom is a really hard role.

But here's the thing: kids learn from what we do right and from what we do wrong. They learn from both. And us as individuals, it's like we don't want to—we love our children so much, thinking that we inflicted any harm on them or didn't do the best by them—it's horrible, it's devastating. But God uses it all and He synthesizes it, right, in that the more good that is there outweighs. Like if you have these scales, the more good that's there, that's what kids will see. It's not that they forget about the bad things that have happened, but they weigh it out and they will look at you as your son does, as a good parent, because there was more good there than not. And the fact that you could own, "I really blew it, I really blew it, can you forgive me?" Oh man, what does that teach them? That teaches them humility and vulnerability and you don't always think you're right. That's what they need to learn, too. And there's even whole psychological theories outside of Christendom built around being a good enough mother, that that is actually what we strive for. Perfect mothers create a lot of anxiety in children. So a good enough mother is what is optimal because it gives them enough frustration to develop some tolerance to that.

Jim Burns: Now I want you to imagine something, Al, because this is so hurtful to you, we can hear it in your voice. And your son has forgiven you. And I want you to imagine—I want you to kind of close your eyes and this is just one example. But I want you to imagine Jesus coming to you and you said, "Jesus, I blew it with my son and I'm asking for forgiveness." I want you to imagine that He puts His hand on your shoulder and says, "My daughter, I forgive you. Let's move on. I love you."

And we all have those moments, and that was your moment, but you don't have to live with it forever. Your son has his own children and he's grown and you're still living in this. I want you to be set free. The Bible says you will know the truth and the truth will set you free. And what I'm hoping is in that moment that you would allow Him to minister to you. He's not condemning you. He's showing you the love that any father would do. He's showing the love that you would show your son if your son did something goofy and your son said, "Mom, I'm sorry, I blew that." What are you going to do? You're going to say, "You know what, son, I love you, and I'm even proud of you."

So I think what you have to do is do the work of forgiveness. It's there, it's present. Logically, it's out there, it's in the Bible, it's everywhere. But the work you've got to do now is to forgive yourself.

Jill Hubbard: And part of it is you're confessing to us, you've already confessed to your son. But would you treat your son's mistakes the way you're treating your own? Would you be as harsh to him as you are being to yourself?

Al: No, I would not.

Jill Hubbard: You would not. So, Al, I love that closing your eyes and imagining Jesus. Also think of you as a young person. And how can you be a parent just like you were to your son in terms of if he had a mistake, you wouldn't treat him harsh? So treating the young person inside of you lovingly like you would your son.

Brian Perez: Al, thanks for calling us today here at New Life Live. We have a tip sheet that we want to send you, so stay on hold. We'll also put the information in our show notes if you're watching us online so that you can call us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE and order this tip sheet. It's called "Falling Forward: How to Move On After Making a Mistake." We think it'll be very helpful for you.

So thanks for calling in. We're going to be here for another hour, so keep calling us at 1-800-229-3000. You can change your name, you can change your location, but just call us. Thank you so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember, we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to NewLife.com to find out more information. And thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing, and we're so glad that you're here.