New Life LIVE

Guest (Male): Welcome to the New Life Live podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Becky Brown: Hello everybody, it’s Becky Brown, and I’m so glad that you’ve joined us today. You’re going to have a special treat. We are going to be joined by Dr. Alice Benton, who is a licensed clinical counselor, and our special guest Dr. Henry Cloud, who I lovingly say doesn’t really need an introduction, except for the fact that you are a New York Times bestselling author. You have changed the lives of so many people, and you’re part of the original New Life crew.

So, I’m so glad that you’re here. We’re going to be talking about your new book that just launched yesterday, *Your Desired Future: The Five Essential Steps that Take You Where You Want to Go*. It applies to so many of the calls that we have here on New Life Live. I would love to know, Henry, what inspired you to put this out into the world?

Dr. Henry Cloud: First off, it’s good to be back with you guys. It’s always fun. The problem with being on with Alice, though, is I’m sitting here listening and thinking I want her to be my therapist. She’s really good. I’ll give you her number. Can I just call in? It’s cheaper if I do that.

So, what the book is really about is the universal path that God has designed for anything to move from here to there. In other words, wherever we are right now—it might be in a marriage, it might be in depression, it might be in a business where sales are down, it might be in your health—wherever it is, here is our current reality, and God has given us the ability to desire something different, a desired future.

The problem being that hope deferred makes the heart sick. We're not getting there many times because there's some missing element in that universal path that is not in the process. So, what I tried to do in the book was to simplify that so people would have a little GPS to whatever they're working on to be able to ask the questions: "Are all five of these ingredients present? But not only are they present, are they present in the way that they have to work?" Because we've heard these five things before, but a lot of times there's missing elements in them, and that's why they're not working.

Becky Brown: Sometimes we hear "recalculating, recalculating," just like on GPS.

Dr. Henry Cloud: Exactly. Sometimes you follow the GPS and you take a right and that road's closed. Or there's a detour or something. There's always recalculating. That's what part of the book talks about. But unless we know how to do that, sometimes we go around in circles.

Becky Brown: And it can be dizzying in the process. I love the concept of that desired future because so many people who we hear from haven't even thought about what they really want for their lives. You address this not only for personal use but also families, couples, and leadership. It really is profoundly simple and vast. It really will make a difference. We're glad that you're here today, Henry. We're going to take some calls. Henry and Alice will answer them. 1-800-229-3000 is the number. You can get a copy of Henry's new book, *Your Desired Future*, at newlife.com or you can call us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE and we'll get you a copy. You know that you want to know how to experience your desired future. We trust Henry's voice. We've learned so much from him over the years and we're grateful to be able to offer this to you. We're going to answer some calls and find out some things we didn't know before we started the show. Stay with us. We'll be right back after this.

Guest (Male): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Becky Brown: Hello everybody, it's Becky Brown. I'm so excited that we're going to have a great show with Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. Alice Benton answering your calls today. Henry, you were sharing with us before we went to the break. Just share with us when you were thinking about *Your Desired Future: The Five Essential Steps that Take You Where You Want to Go*, the book that launched yesterday. I know part of the message that you were talking about was having that GPS.

Dr. Henry Cloud: The book begins with a quote that says when you're trying to get somewhere, it's helpful to have a clear path of how to get there. So, I started asking the question that I always ask. I always ask the question—and this is how I looked at psychology as well from day one—does God have a design for how we move something from here to there?

If God were going to try to move something from here to there, how would He do it? He started a business, and then I thought, "He did." It had a founder, He put a team together, He scaled it, there are multiple retail outlets called churches, and it went global. How does that work? Then I realized He called His business the church and He called the church a body.

I went to neuroscience and psychology and physiology and anatomy. How does the human body get from here to there? It was astounding how it happens, the way He designed it, and there is a path. Your desired future is your vision. Your brain comes up with that. Your brain's not going anywhere by itself. What it does is it recruits the talent that it's going to need to get it there. I'm going to need a couple of legs, a couple of arms, some eyes to get over there to the other side of the room to get me there.

Your brain can think about stuff forever, but our brain doesn't get us there. We've got to have help to get us there. So, you bring the different gifts and talents and skills from around you and then you've got to ask, "Well, how am I going to get over there? Call an Uber? No, that doesn't work. I think I'm going to walk." So, you've got to have a strategy and a plan that work.

Then you start to walk and you wander off. The brain has already calculated an accountability system. If you wander off, it measures that and puts you back on path quickly and fixes that quickly. Those five steps, Becky, I started to put into the therapy process, running a business, getting the kids to church on time, overcoming a depression, fixing a marriage.

That's just how everything works. But the problem is we do things in our own image until we begin to get above it and look at what's missing in the way that I look at this. So, that's where the model came from. What I did was I went deep into how they actually work and what components do you have to have for them to work. That's where the book came from. I've been using this in organizations and with individuals for 20 years and finally decided I should write the book. So, here we are.

Becky Brown: To start with vision, thinking about how many of us don't even think about our future. I know if you're a senior in high school, everybody's asking you what are you going to do, what are you going to do. Then you leave that and who knows what you're doing. I think you're right, we've heard these things before, but this process, this strategy, really does fit into all areas of our lives.

Dr. Henry Cloud: It does. I was talking to a couple, and what's going on with you guys? Instantly, every counselor's seen this. Pretty soon, they're talking about finances or the kids or sex or whatever it is. Within five minutes, they're just going at each other and not getting anywhere. I said, "Stop. Just shut up."

I looked at them and said, "What is your vision for your marriage?" They said, "Well, what do you mean? We need to do better." I go, "But what do you want your marriage to look like?" They said, "We never really thought about it that way." I said, "Well, let's talk about it. What do you want your marriage to look like?"

They started describing it and once they started, I said, "That's incredible. That is like a 1 to 10 marriage, that's like a 10 marriage. That's awesome. That's a great vision. The problem is you're both behaving like threes, not tens. So, how are we going to get there?"

That's just true in life. Tori and I would have family meetings with the kids when they were growing up on every Sunday night. Whether it's talking about the holidays or the summer or next week, okay, what do we want this week to look like? And get a clear vision. We know where we're going. It's like Alice in Wonderland, she comes to the fork in the road and the cat's sitting there. She goes, "Which way do I go?" which in our lives is "What do I do now and I'm depressed? Which way do I go?" The Cheshire Cat looks at her and goes, "Well, where are you trying to get to?" She goes, "I don't know." He said, "Well, it doesn't much matter then, does it?"

We've got to know. It's incredible what happens, how God wired us. When you have a clear vision, neurological systems get activated and start to work on pulling all of the experiences and memories and deficits and everything. It puts it on the table, like opening up all the programs on your computer, and begins to work on that problem if the vision is clear. When I would check a patient into a hospital and they're really, really depressed, they may even be suicidal and have no hope. Because I've done this a thousand times, I'm already planning their discharge because I know what it's going to look like. You're going to be fine. You're going to be functioning, you're going to be sleeping, you're going to be doing all this stuff. But without that vision, you're not going to know how to get there. So, you've got to start there.

Becky Brown: You talk about, and I've seen Finley—you talk about your dog, your Doberman, Finley, in the book. It's funny because my husband would love to have Finley at our house, but we're not going to. You talk about the concept of barking at the door. What does that mean and why do so many people get stuck in that pattern?

Dr. Henry Cloud: It's a great metaphor. Finley, I love all the big working breeds. I've always had German Shepherds and a Rottweiler and now Finley, the Doberman. I love them because two things are true: they're so loving and so loyal, but they're working breeds. They love to have jobs. Finley's main job is to protect the house. If somebody comes to the front door, she runs to the front door. We've got FedEx guys tossing things on the porch and running.

That's what she's supposed to do until one of us walks to the door and says, "Finley, friend," and then her ears go back and she's fine. Or "Finley, wait," and then she stands there until we find out who this is. Finley does that, she does a great job. But I've never seen her run to the front door, bark like crazy, stop, and go, "I wonder if that was helpful, the way I barked. Did I bark loud enough?" But the big question I've never heard Finley do is: "Will that barking get me closer to where I want to be on Thursday?" She never asked that.

That's reserved for the human species to see a future desired state and be able to create. You're created in the image of God as a creator of futures, the promised land that doesn't exist today. Finley doesn't do that. She just operates in the way she's wired. The problem is that's what we do until, as God says, you've got to observe your ways and then you've got to walk in the ways that I've outlined. Like in Deuteronomy 6, Moses said He's given us these ways so that we might always prosper. The Hebrew word there means thrive. The second word means be restored when things go bad so you can be restored. There's thriving and there's healing in the promise of God's ways. But if we don't stop barking and go to a New Life weekend, the second one is engaging the talent. Who's going to help get me there? That's why therapists and counselors and retreats and pastors and support groups—we don't get anywhere by ourselves. That's what New Life does. You guys come in and you say, "We'll bring some talent to this problem, and we have a strategy, we've done this before, we have a plan, and we're going to work the plan." That's how God designed it.

Becky Brown: And it's such a great design. He is the Great Designer. Alice, what do you have to say about what Henry's talking about?

Alice Benton: Well, we always try to get our listeners to believe the idea that they cannot get there alone. And yet, when people have been hurt so much, it's terrifying to get back into relationship with talent so that we can move from here to our desired future state. Do you have encouragement or advice, Henry, that if fear of being hurt is holding us back from the talent, how to get past that?

Dr. Henry Cloud: Well, that's one of the reasons—because it is a realistic fear. The reason why we get stuck is because we've been hurt mostly. It's like I remember one time our youngest daughter, Lucy, she had a splinter in her foot and she couldn't walk. She comes to me, I said, "Oh, Lucy, I’ve got to take that out." She goes, "What?" And I said, "Here, put your foot up here." I start to touch it and she goes, "No, no!" And she—no, I got to—"No, no!" because she was afraid because even touching it was hard. I finally said, "Lucy, oh my gosh, look at that coyote out there!" She turns and I reach in there and I yank it out and she screams and then she was fine, right?

But when we've been wounded, it's hard to open that door. To your point, Alice, we have to have an ultra-safe first step. That's why in a lot of cases, people might have a friend like that, they might have somebody that they feel safe enough to begin to open up. But one of the reasons I'm a big proponent of therapy for a lot of these situations is the first place, if you're too afraid and too hurt, that's fine, but a therapist is trained and paid and bound by law to make this a safe place. Start there.

When a surgeon goes into the OR and operates on somebody, that surgeon has scrubbed before they go in and that team has scrubbed before they go in so they don't infect you with further hurt. That's why, rah-rah for therapy, that surgeon has been trained and they're scrubbed and they're not hopefully going to infect you. I mean, every now and then you hear of a bad therapist, but by and large, you know, they're hopefully not going to infect you with their own stuff. A lot of times we go to friends and all we get from them is their own defense mechanisms. "Well, don't do that, you know, no, you should do this." But they're talking out of their own dysfunction.

What Jesus said to the Pharisees was, "You don't enter in yourselves and you keep others from entering in and lay big burdens on their shoulders," meaning you're putting all this traditions of men in your head on top of these people because you've never gone and done the work yourself. That's why, like in my training program, we were required to go through therapy so our own issues wouldn't get in the way. And that's why you've got to find the safe place.

Becky Brown: And that’s the reason why I was asking about where people get stuck. We’ll talk about this after the break, but that whole concept of the vision for your life, what if it’s a fantasy, Henry? What if we don't have a good vision for our life and we just think that that's the answer? But you can hear the music, so we're going to take a break and we'll come back after this break and see if we can get some calls in. 1-800-229-3000. We got Dr. Henry Cloud featured today as well as Dr. Alice Benton. We can answer some calls and we're talking about Henry's new book, *Your Desired Future: The Five Essential Steps that Take You Where You Want to Go*. It starts with vision. It's such a profound thought that we don't even think about. We don't even know what we're looking at many times. We just wake up and think what's going to be today, let's figure it out. We'll be right back after this.

Guest (Male): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Becky Brown: Welcome back. It’s Becky Brown and I’m so excited that we are going to have a great show with Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. Alice Benton answering your calls today. Henry, you were sharing with us before we went to the break. Just share with us, when you were thinking about *Your Desired Future*, the book that launched yesterday. I know part of the message that you were talking about was having that GPS. Before the break, I was asking you about what if the vision may not be a good vision? Maybe it's based in fantasy. What do you do when that is a situation?

Dr. Henry Cloud: Well, I got to ask first, what kind of fantasy do you mean? Because some visions are fantasies because they're really not based in reality. They're not bad in and of themselves, right? We might be depressed or stuck in our career or whatever it is and we have a fantasy—and it's not a bad thing, it's just unrealistic. For example, if I decide, "Oh, I don't like what I'm doing, I want to play for the Lakers." Well, that's a desired future state, but forget it. That's not going to happen, right?

On the other side of that, some people think things can't happen that could happen and their vision is too small and they just think it's a fantasy. So, we got to examine that in both ways, and that takes feedback and trying and a bunch of other stuff. On the other hand, if we're in pain and we don't like where we are, sometimes we engage in fantasy to medicate our pain. I mean, that's what porn addiction is. That's a fantasy. That's not a desired future state. You're not going to meet that person that's on your screen and have a relationship with them.

That's the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, the boastful pride of life, which is actually Satan comes along and offers those fantasies to you to medicate your experience in the desert. That was Jesus, right? He had gone without everything He needed for 40 days and nights like a lot of people in life we talk to and we probably all been there. You go through pain and deprivation and you don't have what you need.

Satan will come along and give you an answer to that. "I'll give you all these—turn the stones into bread, I'll give you everything in the world." So, you've got to figure out is this fantasy coming from something that's actually a good thing and then I have to figure out if that one's truly a possibility and not limit it but not be crazy. On the other side, is this fantasy taking you further away from life because it's a bad one? We have to figure that out first before I go figure out if playing for the Lakers is a possibility. I got to figure out, well, okay, that's legit, it just may not be for me. But other things we might fantasize about shouldn't ever be fantasized about anyway.

Becky Brown: That's a great thought process too, because there are things that are worth dreaming about that may look like fantasy. But even if you put in the next four steps—the talent, the resources—just taking that into account, how can I make this happen? I love that idea. Henry, we're going to go to a call and we're going to talk with Angela from Georgia who just lost her dog and is really stuck in that grief. Terry or somebody, can you help me with that call screen? We have this new studio, Henry, if you hadn't noticed. We just started up yesterday and so all of the details are getting worked out. But here is Angela. Hello, Angela. Thanks for calling. What's your question for Henry and Alice today?

Angela: How do I deal with the loss of my dog? She was 11 years old and I had her since she was six months. My kids, they brought her home for me to start taking care of, of course they were going to do everything and we already know how that goes. But yeah, I had to put her down a week ago on Tuesday of last week.

She’s been my—I call her my bright-eyed girl. I’m in Georgia now, but I had been in California. I went and got her because I moved out here after I retired and both my brother and sister told me she was depressed back in California with my daughter and her family, so I went back and got her at that time. She was four years old, so I had her out here for seven.

Anyway, it was a very difficult decision, as you know. As we age, we lose abilities and stuff and so it had gotten to the point where she was really suffering and I had to let her go. It was really hard. Just talking about it brings back how difficult it was. But she had a really good vet, really good staff that really helped me through. My youngest son went with me as well and so I had a lot of support. People kept saying you're doing the right thing, you're doing the right thing, but I miss her.

I was talking to Becky earlier and I put her down on Tuesday and then Wednesday I woke up. When I wake up in the morning, the routine is to go through the deets, put her out, take her out, feed her, all this kind of stuff. When I woke up last Wednesday, it was like my dog Angel's gone. God spoke to me at that point. I know it was Him saying, "What do you have to be grateful for?" because we always kind of go through the opposite ends of things.

Becky Brown: Angela, you can hear the music. We've got to go to a break and we know this is very hard. Grief is hard and I think it's harder when you lose a pet because they become very dependent on us. But we'll hear from Alice and Henry after the break. We are so grateful for callers. 1-800-229-3000. We'll be right back after this.

Becky Brown: Hello, it's Becky Brown. I am so excited to launch our 99 for the 1 partner initiative. Every day we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression, all kinds of ways, and it reminds us of the story in Luke 15 where the shepherd leaves the 99 to go rescue the one.

You know, we've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99 for the 1 is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE, 1-800-639-5433, or newlife.com/99for1.

Guest (Male): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Becky Brown: Welcome back. It’s Becky Brown with Dr. Alice Benton and Dr. Henry Cloud and we were just talking with Angela who just said goodbye to a dog of 11 years. It’s so painful when we lose extra family. They’re just like family. I know, Henry, you’ve got such a great connection with Finley and she’s part of the book. But what would you say to Angela in this space? I know grief is early, but what would be a couple of next steps?

Dr. Henry Cloud: Well, I don't know if I could say anything because I'm going to cry. Angela, that's literally what I would do. I'm going to say something real quick: don't expect everybody to understand this. You know, a lot of people think, "Well, it's just a dog." Well, they're stupid because it might be a dog, but the dog is the love object, okay? Just like we have people and dogs and whatever, jobs, things we're attached to. But it's 100% of your heart, so we're not talking about just this.

This goes deep to people who truly love their dogs and non-dog lovers just don't understand this. This is why I've done deep research to tell you your dog's going to be in heaven. I believe that with all my heart. But that doesn't help today. I mean it does, but it doesn't. So first of all, I want you to find somebody like me. Our family dog, the Rottweiler that the kids got when they were really little, was our family dog growing up. We got her when they were five and seven and she was there until she got cancer in COVID, 11 years later.

When she died, we had to put her down. I can't tell you the pain that that was like. The only people I found that could help me were people that had been through it and understood. So, I just want you—I love what you said because you're going to hate what I'm going to say that I love, and that is you wake up and you say, "She's gone." And that's just something you got to put your arms around and when you do that with a safe person, God has wired you with a plumbing system where all that's going to flow out. You just keep squeezing the sponge until it's gone and then all of that's going to turn into sweet memories. We have texts in our family texts of pictures of Riley, great moments. That's what I would say to you.

Becky Brown: Alice, I know that you're going to be doing a webinar later this year on grief and pet grief is a thing. I mean, just like you said, Henry, we love them so much, they're part of our family. How would you encourage Angela today?

Alice Benton: Angela, I think pets particularly carry God's image of unconditional love. Many people I speak with receive better love from their pet than from most people in their lives. So, there's deeper meaning to your loss and I'd ask you to explore that. It sounds like your Angel was a constant through many transitions in your life, from your children launching, to you moving multiple states away, retiring, and maybe even the loss of your spouse possibly, you haven't mentioned him.

And so, she's been the constant when so many other things changed and you had other losses. And so, I wonder if her death brings up a deeper loneliness because of all these changes in your life.

Angela: I’m sure they do. As a matter of fact, I had a Rott that we had to put down. He was seven years old, so that was before her, of course. But and again, it brings back all of that, you know, I mean another loss like you said.

Dr. Henry Cloud: That's really a great point though that Alice brings up. A lot of times we're not just dealing with that loss, that loss is the thread of either prior losses or the connection of other stuff. So, Alice, that’s really an important point.

Becky Brown: We're so glad that you called, Angela, because it's good to share what's on your heart like that. I'm going to send you a guest registration for Alice's webinar on grief later this summer. Hold on and we'll get that information to you.

Alice Benton: And Becky, part of what we'll talk about in the webinar, and that I want Angela to start applying, is giving yourself permission to cry as much as you need, to reminisce, to look at the things that help you to remember the love you felt from Angel, and to share that as Henry said with the safest people in your life because it's by sharing grief that it helps us to process it and survive it and get to a better position of comfort.

Becky Brown: I love that. Well, let's go back to the calls. We're going to talk with TJ who's calling us from Oregon and listens online. TJ, thanks for joining. What's your question for us?

TJ: TJ is a girl.

Becky Brown: Oh, hey TJ! TJ is a girl, awesome. Thanks for clarifying.

TJ: I have a question for Henry Cloud whose book *Changes That Heal* changed my journey. In 2008, my husband and I were able to go to Ultimate Leadership after everything was kind of burning down around our ears with a daughter emancipated at age 17. Ultimately, my husband of close to 50 years has a traumatic brain injury and his relationship has been restored with our daughter. He would love to have a sentence or two that might open up an opportunity, something simple.

If we met at a hot springs and extended family wanted to come, a no-host thing and people wanted to get together, and this daughter and then a granddaughter that I've not been able to ever talk with who's six or seven, and be able to have a peacemaking thing. But I might need to give just a touch of background on how the book helped and where we kind of derailed in '08 to have that make sense for my question today.

Dr. Henry Cloud: To clarify, you did say they are reconciled now, your husband and the daughter?

TJ: It took a long time, but yes, my husband has reconciled, but the daughter did not want to reconcile with me. There’s too much water under the bridge with mom.

Becky Brown: Okay, hold that thought, TJ. We’re going to take a break and then we’ll be back after this. We’ll talk with Henry about this. I was thinking this kind of goes along with what we’ve been talking about, having that vision, and your vision, TJ, is to have a family that is connected, that cares for one another. We’ll see if we can iron some of this out. We may need more information. It’s never just a direct line, is it, when there are people involved? We’ll be right back after this.

Guest (Male): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Becky Brown: Welcome back. It’s Becky Brown with Dr. Alice Benton and Dr. Henry Cloud and we have been talking with TJ. Henry, right now we’re talking with TJ and her family is having some challenges with the connection. I think what you're asking, TJ, is how can we facilitate a way that you can be connected with your family, with your daughter, you mentioned having some simple statement to invite them into this gathering. Am I tracking?

TJ: Yes. If my husband were to just have an olive branch that maybe the daughter would be willing to come. I would like to just explain one thing that was kind of working with the daughter before it backfired and if I might briefly give context around that. We had taken the daughter to counseling and we'd had a couple of meetings with a Christian counselor and that seemed to be going well. When she was 17, the counselor, when I went back to him to try to pick up and go forward, I guess from *Changes That Heal*, it was countertransference or whatever that counselor got triggered. He had said to my husband and me we seemed like we were doing everything right at that time. If our daughter wants to be able to go back to a counselor she used way earlier, even though countertransference was with me, that would be a bad idea.

Becky Brown: Okay, TJ, I want to interrupt you because we're going to run out of time and I want Henry and Alice to chime in. Here's the thing: she's 41 now and she was 17 when you're talking about this, and so a lot of time has transpired. But the stance with the daughter and the other family members—are you the only one that cannot speak with the daughter? Are you the only one of the family that is out?

TJ: The daughter is not wanting to talk to me, but yes, she is with my husband, her dad.

Dr. Henry Cloud: Okay, so I understand. The mom is the only one not reconciled and all the other family members and the daughter are great, including the father. Her gate has remained closed with me over all these years.

Becky Brown: So TJ’s wanting to know, and this gathering that you’re talking about, would you be part of the gathering?

TJ: Yeah, so people could drop by, fly kites along the Columbia River, whatever they want to do. People can connect on their own, one-on-one or groups, nothing hyper-scheduled.

Dr. Henry Cloud: Well, it sounds like that’s no problem for everybody except you. I mean, you’re the only one that’s not reconciled. So, if everybody’s reconciled, why can't they all go be together? The question is you and she and how you all will experience each other, especially her towards you. That's the big variable here.

TJ: Yes. So, I am wanting a simple sentence or something. I didn't know my coping mechanism of my youth was fueling everything that derailed earlier by trying to explain things too much in order to protect myself. So, I just need to be vulnerable and something simple that dad can be the peacemaker and have the olive branch and say, whatever, you know, "Mom just wants to be able to say she's sorry she wasn't able to be what you needed when you needed it going."

Dr. Henry Cloud: Well, let me ask what might be an obvious question. Why walk into a minefield as the first step when somebody might step on something and it blow up the whole gathering? If Mom wants to say something, you want to extend an invitation from Mom, why wouldn't that be a smarter first step, just you and she to see if you can reach out to her and say, "I've learned a lot, I hear you, I know some ways in which I didn't do it right, I would like to just sit down and listen and I'm not going to defend anything or negate, I just want to really understand what's been hurtful for you," and do that first? Then you know more about what you'd be dealing with in this big hooplah gathering.

TJ: Yeah, right. So, I'm on board with that. So, Dad could say that to daughter and say Mom just wants to hear if you want to share and Dad would be there as the listening part too.

Dr. Henry Cloud: Well, I'm not quite sure Dad—I don't know y'all, maybe Dad could be the glue that holds this together. But Dad's part of the system. If I were you, I'd want somebody else there, but I'd want it to be a really skilled therapist or facilitator that doesn't have a vested interest in who's right, who's wrong, how this works out. Because when you walk in and y'all are—I don't know what's going to happen to her. I don't know her. I don't know if she's going to be able to enjoy the whole thing or if she's going to have flashbacks. It seems like a big risk. There's an easier first step. If y'all can't do it one-on-one, then you can even ask her at that point, "Well, if you don't want to be around me, would you like to be around the whole family and I'll just be there and hang out in the background so you'll be comfortable?" You can offer her that option.

Alice Benton: And TJ, one thing that Henry talks about in his book is having accountability, people that can give us honest feedback but in a loving way to check on our progress. So, as you now humbly know, "I used to over-explain and maybe there was defensiveness in that historically," I'd have you check in with people that know and love you to ask, "How am I doing at working on the over-explaining and the defensiveness?" And it's good to have some objective ways you've been working on it like your own individual therapy, group therapy. You let other people other than your husband in close enough that they can answer that question. Because I want you to go back to your daughter in a calmer position knowing that you've built and practiced the skills of being the kind of listener that she needs. And if you get a green light for that from one or two of those trusted people in your circle, then I'd have you offer to your daughter, "I want to meet with you. Would you prefer Dad is there? Would you prefer a therapist is there? And which one? Daughter, I want you to pick the setting because I want it to be safe enough for you." And TJ, have a track record built up already so you can tell her, "This is what I've been doing to become a more trustworthy person."

Becky Brown: That's very good, Alice. And thank you, TJ, for calling. I'm so grateful. We're going to do one more hour with Henry and Alice and so stay on the line. We've got lots of callers lined up. 1-800-229-3000 is the number you can call. I just want to encourage you if you want to be part of what God is doing through New Life, we have a matching gift campaign going on right now and you can double your dollar, double the impact of everything that you give to New Life. You can go to newlife.com/match or you can text the word match to 28950 or you can always call us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE. I'm so grateful for all that God has done through New Life, through your work, Henry. We're going to continue doing the calls in this next hour, so give us a call, 1-800-229-3000, and we will talk some more about your desired future. I think God wants you to think about it.

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