New Life LIVE

Host: Welcome to the New Life Live podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Thanks for joining us today on New Life Live, the show where we say you don't have to walk through life alone. Sometimes reaching out is the first step God uses to bring healing. On the panel today, we've got clinical psychologist Dr. Jill Hubbard and parenting expert Dr. Jim Burns. He's the founder of Homeward and also the author of a new book—I was reading my notes—and we've been telling you a lot about this book, and we're going to keep telling you about it. It's called When Your Adult Child Strays: Trading Heartache for Hope. It's available on the newlife.com store.

Jim, in the book, you talk about the risk of overthinking when it comes to the heartache of a child or even another family member violating your values. What are a few signs that you might be overthinking?

Dr. Jim Burns: Well, we do a lot of overthinking. That's something we talk about here on the program. It could be with your adult child, which we'll go into, but also we just spend too much time overthinking. With an adult child, one of the things I would say is I think we can't be defined by our adult children's choices. So many times when our kids crash or our kids violate values or they stray from faith, then we are defined by that. We say we're failures as parents. We take on this blame when in fact, they're adults.

I'm just going to list a couple of things that I have. I've got a bunch of things in the book where I talk about the risk of overthinking. One is that we are unable to think about anything else. We are so focused. It's a one-topic parent. Our kids are messing up, and so then we become this one-topic parent where that's all we think about, and we feel emotionally and mentally exhausted.

Now, I'm not saying that we don't have concerns about what our kids are doing. I'm just saying we may be overthinking. I've got a quiz in the book where they can kind of tell if they're overthinking. I did this, and I went, "Wow, I think I was overthinking when my kids were in college big time." I tend to go that way. We second-guess our parenting decisions in the past. We say we should have done this. We should have prayed with our kids more. We should have taken them to church more. We should have not gone on that vacation. I should have not worked as hard. Those are all overthinking issues.

Also, we just get fixated on whatever they're doing that has them out of control. Now again, it's really hard. I'm not saying this is easy, but I am saying that we've got to build a new mindset. Part of that mindset is we've got to rise above the circumstances. And we can do that. That's scripturally right, that we rise above the circumstances. I say to people all the time, your circumstance may not change, at least now. But your attitude can change, and your mindset can change. That's so important.

So if somebody is overthinking, maybe I just described one of our listeners. Well, that doesn't mean it goes away. It means we've got to work on that in our own life so that we can actually be more prepared. In the book, When Your Adult Child Strays, I think a lot of people say, "Will this fix my kid?" Actually, it helps fix you so that you can be more effective with your kid. We actually have to broaden the relationship with our kids and learn to embrace the shift even if the shift is not where we want them to be. It's hard.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Really good stuff, Jim. I've never been guilty of that at all. That overthinking and obsessing when they haven't fully launched. When it feels like they've strayed, it feels like you haven't fully launched them. I love how we have to separate our definition of ourselves from them. That helps them too. They don't want to carry that burden.

Host: So go get the book. It's in the newlife.com store, When Your Adult Child Strays. As Dr. Jim Burns just said, this book isn't going to change your kids necessarily, but it's going to change you. It's going to help you navigate life when your adult child strays. We'll be back on New Life Live.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Susan is standing by to talk to Dr. Jim Burns and Dr. Jill Hubbard, but first we're going to speak with Tom, who is listening to us on WBYN. Hey Tom, you with us?

Tom: Yes, I am. Thank you.

Host: Hey, thanks so much for calling in today. How can we help you?

Tom: First, I'd like to say I didn't totally agree with the explanation of the gentleman that wrote that book. It sounded like to me he just wants us to roll over and let them do whatever they want to do.

Dr. Jim Burns: Absolutely not, Tom. The gentleman who wrote the book, by the way, is me. So we get to talk. No, I never mean that. In fact, I wrote another book called Doing Life with Your Adult Children: Keep Your Mouth Shut and the Welcome Mat Out, and people go, "Well, then I'm just supposed to keep my mouth shut." No.

We just have to understand that there are, I believe, biblical ways for us to communicate with our adult children. In doing that, sometimes we have to allow them the passport to adulthood, which is scary because they're making some poor choices. But I don't think the way to bring them back is to tell them how wrong they are and how right we are, because that doesn't bring them back. So sometimes we have to learn to keep our mouth shut or say it in a different way. But I surely didn't mean to say that we just roll over. We don't do that. You're not defined by your kids' poor choices.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Our relationships aren't all or nothing. It's a fine-tuning that you're talking about. There's a time to be quiet and then there is a time to be able to speak up and hopefully when they're more receptive.

Host: So how can we help you, Tom? I love you, Tom. You're awesome.

Tom: I'm talking about a child who's 43 years old. As we came out of court one day, she says to me, "I want all my Christmas presents back, and you're not welcome in my home anymore." She happens to have guardianship of my wife.

At the time that she got guardianship, I didn't realize by me saying to the judge, "Yes, I do wish to be guardian of my wife, but to keep peace in the family, I'll allow my daughter-in-law to be guardianship of my wife at this time." I didn't know at the time that when I did that, that meant that I gave up all rights to my wife. This young lawyer I had never took me to the side and said, "Do you know what that means?"

From jump street, I have no say about my wife whatsoever, even that I have a paper trail of every psychiatric doctor that she sees and she's seeing right now, I was the one that got them for her. When I bring up the subject, I can only bring up suggestions. I said, "I think your mom should be reevaluated and maybe start counseling and have group counseling with people who suffer with similar conditions." My wife suffers with schizophrenia. She came down with that about a year after we were married. We'll be married eight years this November 28th, so we were in our 60s.

I said to the Lord one day, your word says if I obey your ways and your commands, you'll give me my heart's desire. And he gave me Ronnie. If it wasn't for this, what's going on right now, her and I would be sitting on this porch together side by side. But I have no say in the matter. She tells me I'm not welcome in her home because of what I did when I got on the witness stand this last time in court in January. Even though I shouldn't have been listening to my lawyer, he knew I wanted at least partial guardianship, which she had offered at one time. But when I got on the witness stand and brought up a few items, this is what took place in the hallway outside: "I want all my Christmas gifts back and you're not welcome in my home anymore."

Host: So what's the main thing we can help you with today, Tom?

Tom: How do you make peace with somebody who has a narcissism about control and power? She left home at 16 years old. I know her family was dysfunctional. Her mom and her dad were doing drugs and drinking and stuff. But that's not the case anymore and wasn't the case when Ronnie and I got married in 2018. We knew what we both were getting into.

I live up to my wedding vows: love, honor, and cherish, richer or poor, sickness and health, better for worse. It took me two and a half years to finally talk her into letting Ronnie come home from the nursing home that she put her in. I said, "If I wanted to leave, I'd have left five years ago. I'm still here." Then she gives me a half hour a week to visit my wife when the judge said you couldn't keep us apart.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: It's just heartbreaking, Tom. You're coming in as the stepdad, and it sounds like the biological children carry more weight than you do. You certainly have a lot to be angry about in terms of your wife being taken over. I guess I think there's probably details that we don't know about. You're probably right that all of this girl's growing up years, sometimes in the end, kids feel like finally it's my turn and I'm vindicated and now I have control where they didn't feel like they had control growing up.

Finding a way to not air what's right and wrong, because that's not going to go anywhere, but to meet her in the middle and say, "I am not your enemy. I actually want to be your friend and I love your mom just like you love your mom and I'm not trying to take anything away from you." There may be fears—and this is where I don't know—is there money involved? What is she afraid of losing that she's trying to hold on to? Say, "Can we work out something where I can see my wife? I want to work with you. I want to support you in the caregiving. I want to be a team here." What do you think of that, Tom?

Tom: I think her thing is she does not want to lose control. In fact, she wants control of almost everything in her life and everybody in her life.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Probably true, but control of what, Tom? She doesn't want to lose control of what?

Tom: Power or something. I said, "I think it's time for your mom to be reevaluated. I think she should be getting counseling and maybe have group counseling with people with similar problems." She said no, she sees a doctor already. I'm not changing doctors. I said, "I didn't ask you to change doctors. I got doctors for her at University of Penn."

A pill isn't the silver bullet. She needs interaction with others, which seems to be a really great thing. When she gave me that half hour a week, they told her, "Well, your mom seems to be doing better." So time starts to lengthen where I was able to go down there every week. I don't drive, so I had to pay for transportation from Reading to King of Prussia. I was there seven days a week, anywhere from six to eight hours every day.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: That's a lot. It is very complicated. So she's thwarting you. You both have ideas. There's a little bit of each of you thinking you know what's in mom's best interest. That makes it hard. I'm not clear if you still have that half hour. Is that a week or a day?

Tom: I haven't seen my wife since the court date back in January after she said I wasn't welcome in her home. When I went over there one day to drop something off, my wife asked me to step inside the door. My daughter happened to come home, and Ronnie is not supposed to be left alone. Anyway, she asked me inside the door. No sooner than she did, her daughter came home. "I told you you weren't welcome in this house anymore." I said, "Why do you have to be so vindictive and evil and mean?"

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Why you're not allowed anymore, that makes it difficult. Certainly, it's best if you can try to be relational with her. But if not, I almost would go back to my attorney and say, "Is there anything I can do to have visitation with my wife to where it's mandated by the courts because maybe the rules spelled out a little bit more." Your daughter may have power of attorney and conservatorship and all of that, but there needs to be a carve out for you. I wouldn't give up.

Dr. Jim Burns: Tom, first of all, I'm so sorry. This is really tough. It is a loss beyond loss. What a wonderful man you are to try to stay in relationship. I'm kind of going the direction that Jill just mentioned. Why not go back to court? It doesn't sound like this is a decision that the court made, but the daughter. Why not go back to court and get some insight with that? Have you tried that?

Tom: I don't have the money anymore.

Dr. Jim Burns: So you don't have the money.

Tom: I'm about to go to Westchester Public Defender's office to see if they won't take the case because I've spent over $50,000 already and I'm a disabled veteran and I only make $4,700 a month.

Dr. Jim Burns: No, I understand. Sometimes we talk about public defenders as not as good. To be honest, I've seen really good public defenders. I would suggest that you do that and get some insight because you've got to find out why is this woman, or do you know why this daughter is saying you're not welcome in my house? Why is she angry with you? What's the story on that? What will she say at court?

Tom: Well, I think she feels like some way I have betrayed her because she was allowing me to see my wife, which she couldn't stop anyway for a while there. The youngest daughter still goes to a Christian Academy which was a two-minute walk from my house. When they would drop her off at school, they stopped by and picked me up, take me over to the house. I'd spend a day with Ronnie. When they went to pick the daughter back up at the Christian Academy, they would drop me off.

My lawyer said, "Well, they're letting you see her. They're coming and getting you and everything." I said, "Well, wait a minute here, Damian. It ain't like they're going out of their way." That's not the entire picture. Any suggestions, all I could do is make suggestions and they get turned down. Why not let her get reevaluated? Why not let her have some therapy? Why not let her have some group therapy with people with the same type of problem and see what she can learn and have that interaction? What is so bad about that?

There's no silver bullet out there. They have her on a pill right now where she first had to get blood work every week. Now it went to every two weeks. Now it's once a month. It's very dangerous. There might have been now that she's up to close to 300 when they started her at 25 milligrams.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Okay, so when you started to object to her care, that's when the daughter pulled back? It sounds like you were visiting before and then that changed.

Tom: After I don't even remember what I said on the witness stand to be quite honest.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: It would be good to go and have somebody review all that for you. I think you're heading in the right direction with the public defender. You need some more answers because it's quite frustrating. Find out what your rights are. I just affirm you for sticking in it instead of just walking away.

Host: He should read your book, Doing Life with Your Adult Children, or in this case, your adult stepchildren. So hard. Make sure you get help for whatever—I would be angry if I was you and it sounds like you are. I would get help for your anger separately because that's going to help you deal with the relationship in the most effective way you can. That's a hard one.

If everybody watching and listening can keep Tom and his wife in your prayers, that'd be great so that this situation will get resolved and that he'll be able to spend more time with his wife. But Tom, thanks for calling in today to New Life Live.

We've got to take a break now. We've got Sue and Susan coming up on the show. We're going to talk to both of you. Stay on the phone and we'll talk to you here on New Life Live. Thanks so much for joining us. If you're new to the show, maybe you've never heard of us before, go to our website. You can find out all about us. We've been doing this for almost 40 years. Find out at newlife.com. We're also on social media. We'll be back.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

If your identity is defined by your past, your struggles, or the labels other people place on you, we've got a webinar coming up with you in mind. New Life's Identity in Christ webinar is coming up on June 11th, two weeks from tonight. It'll help you discover how understanding your identity in Christ can transform the way you see yourself and live your life.

You'll learn how to break free from false labels, shame, and comparison and get practical ways to live confidently in the truth of who God says you are. Whether you're feeling stuck, searching for purpose, or simply want to grow deeper in your faith, this session will help you discover the freedom and confidence that comes from knowing your true identity in Christ.

Stop living in the past. Stop letting the past live rent-free in your head. The first step to evict the past is to text the word webinar to 28950. We'll text you back a registration link for the webinar, and you'll get a free tip sheet called "Five Ways to Live Confidently in Your Identity in Christ." If per chance you can't join us on June 11th, register anyway because after the webinar, we'll send you a link where you can watch it for about a week after.

Let's go back to the phones now. Here is Susan, also listening to us in Pennsylvania. Susan is also listening to us on WBYN. Welcome, Susan, to New Life Live.

Susan: Hi. First of all, I listen to your show a lot, and it has helped me a great deal, so I appreciate everything that you do.

Host: Well, we appreciate you saying that.

Susan: I'm kind of struggling when I heard today's message about adult children straying. My daughter has been on and off like she will let me in her life and then she'll push me away. There have been things in the past that I've done. I was married to her dad, and we got divorced after 10 years. He was in a sexual addiction.

At first, it was almost like she understood things from his point of view, but then she started to blame me. I did own up to my part in it and I apologized. When I think everything is good, it's just little things. When she gets upset and angry at something, she'll say, "I had a really dysfunctional childhood."

My grandchildren now, which I'm very close to, we have a really good relationship, a bond. There are two boys. They're three and six. We did a lot of things together, made a lot of memories together and such. When she pulls away, then I don't get to see my grandsons and that really hurts. I just don't know what else to do as far as how do I address this?

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Susan, does she tell you why she's upset with you or does she just pull away?

Susan: Sometimes she will. The last time we were up there, she would say comments like, "Don't tell me how to parent. You were a terrible parent."

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Okay, so let me just say something to that because this is—and your daughter's how old now?

Susan: 40.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: 40. Okay. And you have more than one child?

Susan: When I was married, I had two children with my husband. I did have another child and he had passed away. That was her half-brother, and her sibling is still alive. He lives at sea. But she gets mad at him too, and then she pushes him away if he does something that she doesn't like.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: I'm so sorry about your child that passed. There's nothing more painful than that. Having your kids and having disconnect with them is really difficult. Your daughter is your only girl. Mother-daughter relationships are unique. There is more of a push-pull in them. When there are unresolved issues, you see it continue.

Some of it, too, is they have formed their idea of the relationship and what mom is capable of or not capable of, and sometimes they're still reacting to you as if it were back in their childhood and how they saw you then. A lot of times not letting a mom grow up herself can be problematic. I think if your daughter's doing this push-pull, there's something that she may still need from you. That's always an important question. What do you need from me? What is it that we haven't worked through? I'm willing to hear what life was like from your perspective, which is really hard to do because it's easy to want to defend and to say what your intentions were.

Host: We'll continue talking to Susan when we come back. Call 1-800-639-5433 or newlife.com/9941. All right, let's go back to Susan and then Sue in Chicago. Dr. Jill, what else would you say to Susan?

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Susan, it's really hard because daughters will hear from their moms things as critical even when you're not even meaning it that way. Sometimes you can hardly say anything without them taking it wrong. Just think that she has a lot—you mentioned that she felt you weren't there for her perhaps in the ways she needed you, and so you have to acknowledge that and own that and want to repair it with her. The fact that she can even tell you that, that's hope.

Dr. Jim Burns: I was even thinking along with that, Jill, that sometimes we just have to apologize and say, "I'm so sorry you feel that way." You're not saying, "I'm sorry I was the worst mother in the world." You're saying, "I'm so sorry you feel that way," because again, she is dealing with her own stuff.

There's a principle that I use and Jill kind of referred to it is unsolicited advice is usually taken as criticism. Let's say you're with those great, wonderful, beautiful grandkids of yours and then you see her do something. The hardest thing in the world is to bite your tongue. I have scars on my tongue, by the way. But just bite your tongue. It's not your job to correct your daughter, and that's so hard because that's what you did for 20 years plus.

Now she doesn't want that. Most adult children don't want our advice unless they ask. Often times I will say, "Hey, do I have permission to speak into this?" Sometimes it's about her kids because we watch the kids quite a bit. "Can I kind of talk through this?" Almost always she'll go, "Yes." Now I've got the invitation.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Part of it might be that you have to be real careful not to correct her, even though you're right probably. Even though you think you're being very helpful and she needs to hear it.

Dr. Jim Burns: Exactly. I mean, all you're doing is giving some advice and you're probably at least 88% of the time right. She may be taking that as negative. So you want to be real careful that you don't upset the apple cart by giving even good advice if she's not willing to do it. She's an adult. She doesn't take your advice as good; she takes it as you don't trust that I'm all grown up or you don't trust that I'm not a good mom. That's not the case.

So again, you have to be real careful with how you approach her. I'm not saying to always walk on eggshells and things like that, but do know that sometimes an apology, even if it's an apology to say, "I'm so sorry you feel that way and I sure didn't do it all perfect." This isn't all about you; it's partially about her saying those kinds of things.

I would make sure that you continue to do so much with those beautiful grandkids of yours because again, her heart is tied into those grandkids. When mom is loving on the grandkids, that's a great thing for your relationship with her as well. Remember that unsolicited advice is taken as criticism. It's just something that's helped me so much with my adult kids, even when I think I'm right.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Susan, when she said, "Oh, who are you to give advice, you were a terrible mom," be able to say, "I realize that's how you see it and I am so sorry that that's what you received from me growing up. If I could change it, I would."

You've got to really realize this is her—we're not talking about facts; we're talking about her experience. We're not talking about your intentions or your motivations or the things out of your control that impacted. We're talking about kids who are more idealistic. She needed you to be a certain way and you weren't. We all fail our children, Susan. We all hear things like this. So to not be devastated by it, expect it. These are her wounds. The more you can acknowledge her wounds, the better and that will strengthen your bond.

Dr. Jim Burns: That's why you want to have a good group of people around you because it's better for us as parents of adults, especially when our kids are 40 and still saying that stuff, to be the calmest person in the room. The way we get to be the calmest person in the room is to actually know that, "Oh my gosh, I've got to go talk to my prayer group at church."

I have friends, we call each other up. "Can you believe my kid said this to me?" We talk each other off the ledge. We tell each other, "This was my intention." So we get to say our piece, but we say it to our friends. That helps so much when we have that group or a friend that you can talk through that with because either I'm crazy and they're normal or they're normal and I'm crazy. It's really helpful to find somebody who goes, "That's just a normal thing. That happened in my relationship with my kid too." That's beneficial. It doesn't change stuff. It just helps me approach it differently.

Host: Susan, let's send our registration to our Identity in Christ webinar because these are the things that your daughter is telling you about, that you're a bad mom and all this stuff. You don't need to be living with that. You, as a believer in Christ, need to realize that your identity is in Christ. Anyone who is suffering through something like this, this webinar will definitely help you.

You can get all the details about it by texting the word webinar to 28950. Find out what the Bible says about your identity in Christ and then we'll also send you a free tip sheet along with that, "Five Ways to Live Confidently in Your Identity in Christ." Stop letting the things you did in your past and even things you're doing now, that's not how you're defined. So sign up for this webinar. It's happening on June 5th, and again the details are at newlife.com.

Let's talk to Sue in Chicago, welcome to New Life Live and thanks for listening to us on Sirius XM Channel 131.

Sue: Hi. Thank you for taking my call. I listen to your show a lot and it has helped me a great deal, so I appreciate everything that you do. I'm kind of struggling. I'm 64. Recently, my divorce was final in December on my husband's end. We were married 38 years. The divorce proceedings lasted a year and a half.

Because it was a lot of financial infidelity on his part, I tried to fight that because I had the retirement. I've been at my job a long time and anyway, he is getting half of my retirement. He had nothing. We're in the process now of putting the house up for sale. Actually, that's why I left work early because to prepare it.

With all this happening, there was a little bit of physical abuse on his end which I did end up calling the police. In my county, they said even if I dropped anything, they proceed with the proceedings. He has been going to court like four times now, keeps asking for continuances.

This is just an add-on to where part of me—I don't want to say regrets it. He tells me I baited him to do this to me. He does not speak to me, hasn't spoken to me since after the divorce almost two years ago. Right now, I'm just at a spot where I work a lot in my job. It's a job that I take a lot of calls and I always have. So it's sleep, it's prepare the house. It's feeling very overwhelmed.

I have two boys that are in their 20s that live in the area, but they have their own lives. I just feel like friends have scattered. My family, I have siblings in the area, but they have never even brought up the divorce. His family, I was very close with, and that's sad to me that I'm losing them. Nobody has spoken to me. I feel overwhelmed. I've got to find a place to live.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Everything's changing in your life, Sue. Part of the ramifications of divorce is it's not just losing one person. It's losing a lifestyle and losing so many things. I'm sad to hear that you're losing his family and that you feel like your friends and family have scattered. Certainly, everybody has their own lives and can't take on everybody else's burdens, but usually there are people that will walk certain stretches of life with us. I'm wondering if you have invested in relationships like that.

Sue: Yeah, I have a wonderful church family.

Host: Sue, hang on. We've got to go to break. We'll continue our conversation with you. Thanks so much for listening to us on Sirius XM Channel 131. Tell them that they can listen to New Life Live on Channel 131. We'll be back on New Life Live.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Let's go back to Sue in Chicago. You still with us, Sue?

Sue: Yes, I am.

Dr. Jim Burns: The importance of having good friends who can help you navigate through this. We've got calls from people all the time who don't have that bond with people. Sue, I would just want to add that I'm so sorry. Something Jill said: mini-divorces. There's a divorce, but then there are these mini-divorces that take place that we never even think about.

I think you're experiencing that. Plus you have boys who are in their 20s, so they're not going to be your place. Make sure that you do find that. I'm going to give you a word picture. Moses is in a battle, and you're in a battle right now. He's fighting the Amalekites and Moses gets weary and he gets tired and he's using the rod; he holds it up. Then he sits down, and then the Amalekites start winning the battle. Then he gets people around him to hold his arms up.

That illustration is the illustration I want to give to you. In the midst of this—and it's hard because you're fighting in every direction financially and the life that you have known—make sure that you have people who are holding your arms up. You're probably going to find them at your church. It's not an easy answer because it's not going to take away the fight on finances and the having to move and all that kind of stuff. But it's going to help you win long-term. You've been in a relationship with your now-ex for a long time.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: 38 years.

Dr. Jim Burns: Things are going to change. The way to change is to have people around you who can show you love, support, and encouragement in a positive way. I think it's at your church that you're going to find that, as well as a counselor if you haven't had some counseling through this process. I don't think anybody can go through a divorce as long as you were married without getting wise counsel.

Sue: I did go through counseling with a Christian counselor my pastor recommended. I tried to do it while we were just separated, but once I told her we were for sure getting divorced, I stopped going after a while because it was not what she wanted.

Dr. Jim Burns: Well, that's a different type of counseling. Now to go back and say, "Here's what I'm grieving, here's what I'm struggling with," that's a whole different ballgame. Get into therapy versus someone that's invested. We all are invested in marriages staying together, but certainly it can't always be helped. When you are going through something like that, you need the support along the way.

This isn't just about saving your marriage. This is saving you in the midst of really difficult times. It will be emotional and overwhelming. The combination of supportive people—you need more than one because you've got to spread it out—supportive people from your community and maybe doing something like DivorceCare where other people who are also going through it because they have a greater ability to empathize.

Sue: I did DivorceCare twice.

Dr. Jim Burns: I've known people that do it more than once. Get into a support group. I remember way back when, I was in a support group of single moms. We just came with our kids, and we sat together and had a weekly group. It was really supportive. Sometimes you have to create it. Sometimes you have to pull a couple of people together and say, "Will you be my prayer partners through this and let's meet for coffee every week." Doing different things like that so that you can maintain through it.

Sue: I just don't want to burden people. I feel like this has been my life now for two years.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Yes, it has been, and it's the longevity of it. That's why you have multiple places. I think if you ask a couple of people and say, "Are you willing to meet once a week? It's time-limited so they know what they're committing to. Can we meet and can I share about what I'm going through? Can you support me in this?"

Dr. Jim Burns: It doesn't have to be just about you. I got the greatest email a while back from a New Life listener who found my email. She was going through a lot of stuff, and I said, "You might want to volunteer at the church. Maybe you just sit and rock babies in the early childhood thing." She said, "I've been rocking babies now for five to eight weeks, and it's healing me."

It was part of what you're saying, Jill. You need different things to contain. It's what I always call the circle of support. We need pastoral care, a counselor, prayer, but also maybe holding some babies at church that just cause joy.

Host: Sue, thanks for calling in today to New Life Live. When you help support the ministry that we do here at New Life, you are helping lots of people. It goes on for generations as well. Right now, we have got a $250,000 matching gift. I'm not a financial advisor, but I think our 250k matching gift will bring you better returns, eternal returns than your employer's 401k match. Double your impact by giving at newlife.com/match or you can text the word match to 28950 or by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE. If you've never given to New Life or it's been a while, now is the perfect time.

We've got a couple of minutes left. I just want to follow up with something Sue said. So often our friends are going through divorce and we're not sure what to say. Maybe we're thinking, "I don't want to bring it up. It's going to make her upset." What are some practical things we can do as believers in the body of Christ to come alongside people?

Dr. Jim Burns: Well, I think there's a ministry of presence. Sometimes it's not our words. Maybe we're not qualified to give advice on the divorce or whatever the situation is, but we can listen. Listening is the language of love. Sometimes it's just saying, "Hey, how about we get coffee?" Maybe you're talking about the Chicago Cubs or maybe you're talking about something really in-depth. It really does make a difference.

I have found as a pastor type not to be shy about just calling and saying, "Hey, I hear you're going through a tough time. If there's anything I can do or at least can I be praying for you?" Sometimes people don't want to go through it all, and sometimes they do. I don't think we have to be the counselor. Sometimes we think we have to do it all for them.

The ministry of presence when people have come alongside me—my wife Kathy has been in the hospital for some time—and it was the people who just said, "I know you're really busy right now with all of this. When it's done, I want to get with you. But I just want you to know you're in my thoughts." Gosh, I teared up. I just want you to know that I'm there for you. That makes all the difference. People just caring.

Acknowledgment is key. If people say, "Oh, I don't want to upset them," that's your own issue. People who are hurting like acknowledgment.

Host: I'm starting to think that's why God created coffee, just so we can get together, help our friends out, just be with them. God bless you guys. Thanks for watching and listening. We'll be back with you tomorrow here on New Life Live.

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