New Life LIVE

New Life: Welcome to the New Life Live podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's Word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

How can we help you today? This is New Life Live. I'm your host, Brian Perez, and we're going to be in the studio for two hours. That's two hours for you to call and speak with our two counselors on the panel today. Lines are open right now, and we have plenty of time to get to your call. 1-800-NEW-LIFE is our number. I'm joined by clinical psychologist Dr. Alice Benton and Sherry Denham Keffer, Doctor of Marriage and Family Therapy. Ladies, nice to see you. Sherry, looks like you won the coin toss, so how'd you like to start us off?

Sherry Denham Keffer: I got up this morning and I was reminded of a verse that I adore. In Psalms 40, it says, "I waited patiently for the Lord, and he inclined to me and he heard my cry. He brought me up out of the pit of destruction, out of the miry clay, and he set my feet upon a solid rock, making my footsteps firm. He put a new song in my heart, a song of praise to God. Many will see and fear and trust in the Lord."

Why do I love that so much? I think it's because our lives are filled with moments where there's miry clay, where things happen to us, things that we don't want to happen, or things happen to people that we love, things happen to our family members, and it can feel overwhelming, scary. We can feel like we're all alone.

That verse always grounds me and reminds me that no matter how miry, how much covered with mud I feel I am, or how dark my situation feels, the Lord is there to walk it out with me. That's the amazing thing. I think he shows up for us like that because ultimately, as we move through it with his strength, his support, with those around us, and with love, I think people really do see a difference in us. I think people see a difference and they ultimately see the Lord, and that's the goal. But it doesn't feel like the goal when we're in that miry clay. I just want to encourage all of us today. I know there's a lot going on, and you're not alone. We're here for you. Do you guys have miry clay experiences where you can relate?

Dr. Alice Benton: Every day. When I hear from people that struggle to sense God and the solid footing he's trying to give them, I find it's often because of a lack of people who can be his hands and feet in their lives. So, if you want to feel the effects of that verse and yet God's presence isn't tangible to you, it's probably because you need more godly men and women in your life who know about your miry clay moments.

Brian Perez: That is for sure. If you want to call in today, we're going to be here for two hours at 1-800-NEW-LIFE. As we've been saying, it's National Mental Health Awareness Month, and everyone's talking about mental health awareness right now. That's what we do every single day. I just found out this morning it's National Hair Stylist Mental Health Awareness Day. So, if you're having a miry clay hair day, no, think about it. Our hair stylists sometimes hear so many different things. Their clients are sitting in that chair and they are hearing the weight of the problems that their clients have. Where do hair stylists go? Well, if you're one, if you're a barber, whatever the case might be, call in. Maybe we'll put you at the front of the line today. We're going to be here for two hours. We would love to hear from you.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Something we started doing at New Life about a year ago are these 90-minute webinars led by licensed counselors to help you break free from unhealthy patterns and move toward emotional and spiritual wholeness. The next ones coming up are on Understanding Your Identity in Christ led by JJ West, and then Dr. Alice here will cover the topic of grief. So much for only $24.99. It's a 90-minute webinar, including 30 minutes of Q&A. You can get all the details on both of these at NewLife.com. Alice, grief is something we deal with all the time here at New Life. What are you preparing to tell at this webinar?

Dr. Alice Benton: We'll be discussing the different forms of grief because there's obvious and then there's subtle grief. For the people that go through subtle grief, it's much harder for them to receive the level of comfort and validation that they need because it's commonplace to say it's not that big of a deal, aren't you over it yet, or how long has it been since your loss?

All of that leads to the grieving person shutting down, which actually short-circuits the grieving process. So, we'll be talking about how to honor the pacing that is individualized for everyone going through whatever form of grief is happening in your life.

Brian Perez: Everyone grieves differently. So, even though somebody might think, well, that person should be over this by now, who are we to say that?

Dr. Alice Benton: Absolutely. Grief is individual and it really needs to be honored, respected, and the pacing that each person has in their own process needs to be respected. There are so many other things that factor into it because grief is complicated by unresolved hurt. The more historical pain a person has that has not yet been dealt with, the more prolonged their grief will likely be. So, it's not always just what we know about and just what we see on the surface. It's usually an aggregate. It's the accumulation of pain and many different losses in a person's life.

Sherry Denham Keffer: I spend a lot of time with betrayed partners, and there's a type of grief, and I'm sure you know about this, Alice, called disenfranchised grief. What's disenfranchised grief? It's the kind of grief that isn't or can't be socially sanctioned.

If somebody dies, they pass away, you've got folks that reach out to you. They give you cards, they bring casseroles, they call, they reach out. You're surrounded by love and care and support. Yet, when there's sexual betrayal of some kind, whether it's relational, emotional, pornography, real person, whatever it is, the shame of that action actually keeps betrayed partners from processing their grief because where are you going to go talk about it? That's an incredibly important piece for their healing, to be able to be seen and heard, and to be in a place that they're accepted, seen, validated, not judged, and they can let that pain out. That's the difference between regular grief and something called disenfranchised grief. People can get stuck in not sharing the dark pain that they're experiencing because it's just not safe to do so.

Dr. Alice Benton: It might be considered unacceptable to air that kind of grief in more public places. Because other people's grief makes us uncomfortable, we often want to shut it down, minimize it, and clean that up quickly so that we can all feel better fast. Grief has to do with sitting in someone's pain long enough. Sherry, I think I first heard this from you. You can cry as hard as you need for as long as you need and I'm going to sit here with you. Most of us have never heard that kind of invitation before in our lives, and our hearts are just yearning to grieve, but we may not even know it.

Brian Perez: Find out more about these webinars at NewLife.com. You can also call us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Alice's webinar's happening in July and JJ's webinar's happening in June. That one's called Identity in Christ. If you text the word WEBINAR to 28950, you'll get a registration link for JJ's webinar and you'll also get a free tip sheet about Identity in Christ. That one has to do with, sometimes we go through life and different things happen and your past does not have to define you. If you made mistakes in your past, we all have. But what happens is you're constantly thinking of that, or the enemy will throw darts at you to remind you of the person that you were and you're trying to live differently now. Sometimes it's your own family who tells you, "Oh yeah, you're trying to tell me what to do? Your life was pretty messed up." Stop thinking about that. Your identity as a believer in Christ is in Christ.

Let's go to the phones now. We've got Sue in Dayton, Ohio, who is a new listener. She just found out about New Life Live, and we welcome you to our show. Hi there, Sue.

Sue: Hello. I just really wish I had the energy and know-how just to go to Phoenix because I've got real bad arthritis. I have trouble walking and I have to use a walker and I've got things in my spine. Anyway, I just need help. I can't believe my grandmother of the last century came over here on a boat when she was 13 to clean houses, and I don't have enough sense to get to Phoenix. That's the best way to put it.

Brian Perez: So, what's in Phoenix? Why are you mentioning Phoenix?

Sue: Because I've got arthritis, and if you go to Phoenix, you won't hurt.

Dr. Alice Benton: Because the weather would be better for your arthritis?

Sue: Yes. Oh yeah, there's no rain out there. We've had rain here for the past 10 days, every day.

Dr. Alice Benton: You want to move to Phoenix, relocate. But because of both fear and your own physical impairments, they are all holding you back from getting to a place that would be better for your health.

Sue: I thought about contacting a church out there that could help me, but I don't know how to do that even.

Brian Perez: Do you have family there in Dayton who can help you?

Sue: No, nothing. That would solve my problem if I had somebody there. I lived there years ago. My brother, he's here. I've lived in this house since 1960 and I just sold it and I feel lost. I bought it in 1960. I'm not a mover. I'm pretty stable. I sold it and I went over there and everything, they've dug everything up out of the ground. I don't like it. Anyway, I need to move on with my, I'm 85, see, and that's another thing. I'm so old. Of course, my brother wants to put me in a home and I don't want to go there. So, just pray for me, will you? I'd appreciate it. I believe in prayer. I believe in prayer.

Sherry Denham Keffer: First off, Sue, I want to say I'm really sorry. You have so many things that are happening right now and that have been happening over a number of years physically, emotionally, and now the loss of your house and this idea that your brother is talking to you about, at 85, to go into assisted living. It sounds overwhelming, like so many changes happening all at the same time and what you want to do is run.

Sue: That's it. I thought if I could make it to Phoenix, I'd hitchhike. I really would.

Sherry Denham Keffer: You sound like you want to run to a place that's warmer and that sounds like it's you're holding on to hope. You know what's so hard, Sue? What's really hard is when our hope collides with our reality.

Sue: Overwhelms us.

Sherry Denham Keffer: It sounds like that's right where you're at. Your hope to go to Phoenix is colliding with your reality that it's going to be really hard to get there on your own. What do you do with that? I started the show today talking about Psalms, like "I waited patiently for the Lord and he heard my cry, he brought me up out of a pit of destruction, out of the miry clay." I bet you kind of feel like your feet are in miry clay right now. Like you probably feel stuck.

Sue: I just don't know what to do and I'm afraid I'm going to get out there and I know rental and all that is so expensive. I guess in Atlanta, it's four grand for an apartment every month. Is that right?

Sherry Denham Keffer: Might be. But this is the reality, precious Sue. This is the reality, sweet one. You are having to face a very big move at 85 and trying to figure out how you're going to be cared for in Arizona when you're all by yourself. That's a big dilemma. That may be why your brother has an opinion about where he thinks you might land, but that's going to collide with your hope.

Sue: I don't want to go in a home. I'd go in a home out there because, see, I'm in a lot of pain. I just went to a pain management and he gave me stronger pills and they're helping a lot. But it's just the fear of it all.

Sherry Denham Keffer: Let me ask you a question. What if you were to talk to your brother and say, "Hey, just to let you know, I was talking to these very nice people and they were caring for my heart. Guess what? I told them that I would be open to maybe going to an assisted living center in Phoenix. What do you think about that, brother? Would you be willing to help me consider that?" What do you think about that as an option?

Sue: I never thought of that. I don't think he'd like it because he likes to see me about once a month. That's his limit. He's busy, he's a farmer, and he's very, very busy. But I'm pretty sure that's what he, see, he's 10 years younger than I am and he doesn't realize how bad arthritis is.

Dr. Alice Benton: Sue, do you think your brother is motivated out of love for you even if you don't like the way he's going about it?

Sue: Yes. He's got a family and he just wants me to be someplace that's safe and he doesn't have to fool with it. He wants to put me someplace where he thinks I'm safe. He can call the manager and see if I've been eating the pancakes or deviled eggs or whatever.

Dr. Alice Benton: So he can mother-hen you a little bit too much at times. But to hear you say he wants to see me at least once a month, he cares about you and he wants to be involved in your life. The two of you having a discussion that involves trying to find a compromise that works best for the both of you, but I suspect you need an advocate to be able to do that. Maybe your brother has a strong personality, maybe he's opinionated, and you might be a little bit more on the easygoing side. So, perhaps your preferences aren't heard and maybe it doesn't even occur to you sometimes to push your preferences.

Sue: He doesn't believe in God.

Dr. Alice Benton: So, there's a difference in faith too, which could keep you from being as open with him as you maybe wish you could be. Sue, I wonder if you'd consider allowing a family therapist to intervene and have a family session with you and your brother so that your voice is heard by him and that his concerns about you and your health are also out on the table. Oftentimes, a third party who's not part of the family system can help draw these different factors out and help a family come to an agreeable conclusion.

Sue: So, just look in the phone book and find a family therapist?

Dr. Alice Benton: Even better. We have our own New Life phone book of family therapists that we know, we've checked with, we trust, and we can get you to one, even better than the phone book.

Brian Perez: You just have to stay on hold. You called the right number and we'll get you connected with somebody, Sue. We love you, we care about you, and that was a great idea, Alice. Sue, it's perfect to have somebody there. We all need somebody. We definitely know some counselors, some therapists there in Dayton, Ohio, who can help you. So, stay on the phone, Sue, and we'll get you connected with one. Thanks for watching and listening today to New Life Live. Alice, I think Sue would benefit from the grief webinar that you're doing in July.

Dr. Alice Benton: Yes, it's on July 16th. So, Sue, we'll send you a registration. Stay on the phone.

Brian Perez: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

If you're facing addiction, codependency, grief, or something else entirely, you don't have to recover alone. Life Recovery Groups connect you with Christ-centered 12-step community using the Life Recovery Bible and proven tools for lasting change. Across the country and online, men and women are finding honest conversation, accountability, and hope one day at a time. To find a Life Recovery Group near you or online, visit NewLife.com and click groups.

Sherry and Alice are here to take your calls at 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Anonymous calls are welcome too. Let's go to Dallas, Texas, and speak with Rebecca, who was told about New Life Live by a friend. So, what's your friend's first name, Rebecca?

Rebecca: Stephanie. She and I were talking, we've been friends for well over 20 years, going to the same church together and just doing life together. I'd share with her my concerns regarding my son, who's a 24-year-old Marine, young married, and I believe he's experiencing depression and he's coping with it with alcohol. My husband and I are going to go visit him. He doesn't know we're coming, and I want to come with solutions. I don't want it to be an angry session, but I do want to hold him accountable for his behavior. My husband is coming, but he is of the mindset that he's young, he's in the military, that's what they do. So, he's not as concerned as I am, and I don't want to be the mom who's just being extra and making something out of nothing, but I know my child. I've had conversations with his wife, and his behavior is not normal for him and for us as a family. I just want strategies in terms of what to say, what not to say, and any resources we can provide for him. Again, I want to come with solutions.

Dr. Alice Benton: Rebecca, thank you for being the kind of mom that is willing to figure out how best to share a tough truth and to do it in a way that's just covered in grace. That's a difficult conversation to have to prepare for. Do you know about your son's alcohol use through his wife? That's how it came to your attention?

Rebecca: Yes. And he's come to visit and I've seen, he would come and stay in his old room and there were beer cans left behind. Again, I wasn't overly concerned because we went through the whole college years, but it seems to be escalating to where it's affecting the marriage and work.

Sherry Denham Keffer: When you said behaviors, what kind of behaviors are you hearing about? What is his wife telling you? What's concerning?

Rebecca: Recently, midweek, drinking alone. There's a difference between social drinking what young people do and drinking alone to the point to where you're throwing up, to the point to where she thinks you may have alcohol poisoning because you can't stop throwing up. So, that lets me know things are escalating to do that midweek. That's not normal as far as I'm concerned.

Dr. Alice Benton: Rebecca, is there any family history of alcohol use or substance use?

Rebecca: No, but there is history of mental illness. We've had the gamut within our family from schizophrenia to depression to, again, it runs the gamut. I specifically prayed before my pregnancy, during my pregnancy, because I grew up with a father who had mental illness. So, I prayed and I prayed for not only my emotional well-being, fearful of postpartum depression, but for my child as well. His wife has said that they've had conversations where he realizes there's a heaviness or he doesn't understand why sometimes when he's home he just doesn't want to do anything. She's very active, social bee. At first, I kind of blew it off, "Well, that's just him, he kind of always soaks, he's always done that and he's an only child." But I don't want to minimize behavior to the point to where even he is saying he knows sometimes he's not like all there, something is wrong. I'm concerned about that, and again, I think he's masking it with alcohol.

Sherry Denham Keffer: How is this affecting his work? I know you mentioned not only at home, but what are you hearing is happening in the workplace?

Rebecca: Just that this latest episode that he had to call in from work where he went and he was sick and he was still throwing up and he was dismissed. So now it's affecting to where you can't go to work or stay at work. That has never been an issue. He's always had a strong work ethic, and like I said, he's an active Marine. So, it's obviously affecting him being able to go to work and stay at work.

Dr. Alice Benton: Do you have the kind of relationship in your family where it's okay to talk about each other's struggles and this would not be a very foreign conversation to have?

Rebecca: We do. I anticipate him kind of blowing me off and probably going to say I'm making something out of nothing.

Sherry Denham Keffer: Well, that's called defensiveness and that goes along with addiction. Somebody has to be willing and open to listen, and sadly, sometimes what has to happen is they actually have to have some consequences come down around them, and that's what you're trying to preempt. You're trying to go in love. We'll tell you more when we come back here on New Life Live.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Rebecca Brown: Hello, it's Rebecca Brown, and I am so excited to launch our 99-for-1 partner initiative. Every day, we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression, all kinds of ways. It reminds us of the story in Luke 15 where the shepherd leaves the 99 to go rescue the one. We've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life, and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99-for-1 is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE or visit NewLife.com/99for1.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: Let's go back to the phones now, speak with Rebecca in Dallas, Texas. Are you still with us, Rebecca?

Rebecca: I am.

Brian Perez: Thanks for holding through the break. Sherry, what did you ask her right before we went to break?

Sherry Denham Keffer: I was just talking about defensiveness and how that is a normal part of covering up addiction. Then you need to layer on, and I'm sure you've already thought about this, the military and how he has to keep his face and there's such a vulnerability for those that serve to be vulnerable in the military because it could be a bad mark on them. They don't want to lose their job, they don't want to have that on their record, and so a lot of people like your son are afraid. Like you have fear, but he has fear about taking ownership over the problem.

My encouragement for you would be this, very, very succinctly: the Lord, I think he had a real plan when he gave us two ears and one mouth. Sometimes when I'm preparing to have a conversation, I will say, "You know what? I'm going to put on my elephant ears." When I say that, what I mean is I'm opening up my ears way bigger than they already are. I'm putting on my elephant ears because I need to hear what's going on in order to listen for those moments where I might be able to disarm whatever defense is coming up.

I'm not perfect at it, I don't think anybody is because you're going to have feelings and somebody else is going to have feelings and those feelings can get muddied. But I think if you will go in the posture that you're going with and lead with love rather than fear, meaning I want you to go with elephant ears and I want you to tell yourself, "This is just the beginning. This is the beginning of a series of loving engagements and conversations." If you go and because you're going out there with your husband and he doesn't know about it, and you expect in your mind to accomplish the mission, like that he's going to hear you and make some changes, I think you're going to set yourself up for failure because you'll go in with expectations that most likely are not going to be reached.

I'm not saying that to discourage you, I'm saying that because that's the nature of addiction. It takes many conversations with somebody who's in an addiction in order to try to get underneath what's going on. The more people come in and try to fix them, the more they hunker down and they put their heels into the ground. So, it's going with wisdom and realizing this isn't the only time.

Dr. Alice Benton: A couple of points you might address with your son and daughter-in-law: start with humility. This family has struggled. So, with the history of depression, schizophrenia, there is a genetic setup for life to be difficult for your family in that particular way. Then I think you have an in with what your son has said: he knows he's not all there. I would use that phrase, "Son, I know you've been saying this, and that's why we're coming around to love and to figure out how we can best help you."

You might ask how he's holding up with all the stress that he's under, with how hard he's working, and then I would gently point out coping with alcohol isn't working well for your wife or for your health. So, we're hoping that we can help get you connected to professional help, and his wife will probably need to take that stand: "Husband, I need us to get professional help."

Sometimes, rarely, but sometimes a person struggling is willing just with that conversation to get the help they need. But often, like Sherry's saying, they're not. So then it will be the wife's work to say over time, "Well, if you won't get the help, because I notice you're still not and you're still drinking, then I'm going to have to make adjustments in order to protect my heart."

Those adjustments usually involve going to Al-Anon. It'd be good for you and your husband to go to Al-Anon even if you have already, for the wife to go to Al-Anon and to learn about how to increase boundaries to protect her heart and to help him feel the effects of his decisions to drink this much alcohol.

Rebecca: Okay. I don't think he knows that we, when I say we, his wife and I, have had conversations about his depression. Matter of fact, I'm sure he doesn't know. He would probably deny that to me. She has in her conversations with him, he sometimes will get to the point where, "Okay, you're right, I'll go talk to someone," and then a few days later, "No, I'm fine, I don't need to talk to anyone." So, it's like a breakthrough and then retreat. I have never told him that she and I have talked and mentioned depression because I don't want him to lash at her or I don't want to close that door of communication because they don't live near us and she is the only means by which we know what's going on because he would never confide this to us.

Dr. Alice Benton: Rebecca, I'd recommend lifting that secrecy. It might go best for the wife to tell him, "I'm scared, this is too much for me to handle on my own. I need to bring in some good people who love both of us because what I'm doing here, it's not working. You say you'll get help, but you don't. So, I'm going to be bringing in parents, people that love us, our pastor, and I'm going to be letting people know that what I'm going through is just too much for me to handle right now."

That may upset him, and if she's too afraid to tell him that, then there may be an anger-aggression problem on his side, which often gets worse with substance use, and perhaps an avoidance or a people-pleasing passivity on her side. Usually, all those factors are in play. But that would be ideal to lift off that veil of secrecy.

Brian Perez: Rebecca, thanks for calling us today on New Life Live. On our website, NewLife.com, we have an article called Four Tough Love Tips: How to Help a Loved One with Alcohol or Drug Addiction. We're going to put a link to it in the show notes and we'll send it to you via email. Stay on hold, Rebecca. Thank you so much for calling in today. 1-800-NEW-LIFE is our number. We're going to be here for the rest of this hour and all of next, so you can keep calling. Right now, we're going to go to Washington, DC, and speak with Brian. Welcome, Brian, to New Life Live. How can we help you today?

Brian from DC: Thank you for taking my call. First-time calling. It's been a tough journey the last seven years of the divorce that happened about seven years ago. I myself started drinking myself, but I've gotten help and I've been sober for over two years.

Sherry Denham Keffer: Good for you.

Brian from DC: I find myself still struggling a lot with the grief because we have a 16-year-old daughter involved. I'm trying to figure out what God is telling me to do with my life. I seem to be stuck. When you still love someone, which I still do and I pray for her every day, it seems to be very difficult. I don't date or move on with anything, as you would say.

Sherry Denham Keffer: Can you just share what happened with the divorce? Just give us an idea.

Brian from DC: My wife was saved about three years before the divorce. I was not. She was a completely different person, very humble, and decided three years later that she didn't love me anymore. I was saved about two years after that, and from that point on, I tried to get counseling for us, pastoral counseling. We were separated for about three or four years as well, and I tried to keep it together. She had breast cancer, so I cared for her through that as well. So, it's been a very mixed bag of a variety of parts of the equation that I can't seem to put together to move on with my life or have a stronger understanding of what I need to do.

Sherry Denham Keffer: Has she gotten remarried?

Brian from DC: No, she has not.

Sherry Denham Keffer: It's interesting. Both of you have gone through incredible tragedy and yet redemption. It's like she met Jesus and, sadly, the divorce came, and then two years later you met Jesus. But you're both kind of like two islands. Neither one of you have really moved on to another relationship, but your daughter is in between you. I respect the fact that you're feeling very stuck. We'll talk more when we get back, but we're here for you, Brian.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: Back to Brian, who's listening to us in Washington, DC. You still with us, Brian?

Brian from DC: Yes.

Brian Perez: The main question you have for us then is how to move on or understand what has happened with divorce and your life, and how you can recuperate without feeling such grief. You also mentioned a 16-year-old daughter. Do you guys have joint custody or does she live with each of you?

Brian from DC: Unfortunately, my ex made it a very tough divorce. I didn't have the financial resources to fight her in court, so I gave up custody.

Dr. Alice Benton: And are you disconnected, out of communication with your 16-year-old?

Brian from DC: Yes.

Sherry Denham Keffer: This is called complicated bereavement, Brian. Complicated bereavement is like having a broken limb, like a broken femur, breaking it one day and then the next day getting hit by a truck and breaking it again and having it shattered. You lost two people through the divorce: you lost your wife and you lost your daughter.

Remember at the beginning of the show, I was talking about something called disenfranchised grief? That's the kind of grief that happens when we don't feel like we can talk about this publicly. I remember when you got on today, you said, "I think this is the first time I've really talked about this." Have you shared at all, or has it been really hard because of the shame that you would feel over losing your wife, your marriage, the finances, custody? What's that heartache like for you?

Brian from DC: I think the huge part is how long we were together. We met very young in our early 20s, so a 20-year marriage. I have been able through my faith and prayer and God's answer over the last 10 years to have two really good mentors that I share with a little bit. But you hit it dead-on about the shame. This is probably the first time I've talked about it in depth. I find myself daily, besides my prayer life and my spiritual walk with God, I know I'm struggling. Obviously, I went into addiction afterwards to numb out.

Sherry Denham Keffer: Are you aware, shame basically has to do with the brain wiring in a negative belief about ourselves at these painful, traumatic events? They're usually pointed at us. They usually sound like "I am." Like, "I'm a failure," "I'm not good enough," "I deserve this," or "I don't deserve love." Are you able to articulate what that negative, nagging belief is that kind of keeps popping up from day to day? What are you hearing in your head?

Brian from DC: Again, you must be reading my mind and my soul. We both come from broken homes. Everyone from her family is divorced. I feel the shame of as a man, a man of God, even though I was not saved, I know I was a very good husband, even when I did not know God. She chose to one day tell me that she no longer loves me and told the church no longer loves me during counseling. So, for me, it's the shame of not being able to keep it together for her, myself, and then our daughter. Our daughter was very young when all this began.

Sherry Denham Keffer: So, it's like "I'm not good enough. I'm not good enough to hold everything together. I'm not a good enough dad, I'm not a good enough man, I'm not a good enough person to have held all this together that it fell apart." Now, do you know something? That's the lie. That's the trauma-induced shame belief that got wired in at your divorce and at the custody battle.

Do you know why that gets wired in to our brain? It gets wired in because the brain's trying to save you, Brian. If you believe truly in your heart and your brain that "I'm not good enough and I'm not a good enough man to keep things together, to keep a relationship together," do you think you're going to go out there and try to talk to other people? No. So, the brain accomplished its work. But it disables us.

I do something called EMDR, Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing. If I were to see you, we would target the divorce and the loss of your daughter through the custody, and then we'd write down the negative, and then the opposite is what? What's the opposite of "I'm not good enough to hold everything together"?

Brian from DC: I'm good enough.

Sherry Denham Keffer: The truth is, I'm good enough and I did the best I could. That's where you want to go and you want to do whatever it takes for you to get to that new truth, because there's not any of us that are perfect.

Dr. Alice Benton: There are specific steps, Brian, to take to, as you say, move on in your grief. The grief will probably stay with you for a lifetime, but there are ways of decreasing the grief through this process.

One is purposefully allowing yourself to feel anger. A lot was taken from you and without much explanation. If you haven't let yourself be angry and talk about it with other men that you can trust, there's probably still anger and resentment stuck inside of you, as there would be in anyone who's gone through what you have. Through the process of allowing anger, you then can better tap into your ability to lament. Lament is choosing to let your guard down and share your sorrow with those men.

You said you've got two mentors, but you haven't told them a lot. It's time to get ready to tell them more. Grief shared is grief halved. It's like grief cut in half because we talk about it, we cry about it, we make angry statements about it with people that love us. That then helps us move to being able to choose to forgive the perpetrators that took so much from us through supernatural grace, because we can't do that on our own.

God can help us get to a point where we can actually pray to bless the people that have hurt us, and we know we're moving towards freedom when we're willing to consider letting God help us there. If you have not yet made reconciliation attempts with your daughter, I think getting together with a really good clinician, one of our counselors in our network if you don't have one, to look at what attempts have you made and what else could you do to try to repair that rupture with your 16-year-old daughter. The last one is just to continue broadening out the amount of men you're willing to let your guard down with and talk these things through, because that's where God's healing really comes in.

Brian Perez: Brian, thanks for calling us today. We're going to send you a registration to the Identity in Christ webinar. Alice's grief webinar would be really good too, but the Identity in Christ one is the one that's coming up in just a few weeks. We'll send you a registration for that. Then also, there's a tip sheet called 12 Steps to Overcoming the Pain of Divorce. We'll send that to you and anyone watching or listening when you call us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE.

We're going to be in the studio for another hour. We're going to keep the phone lines open, 1-800-NEW-LIFE. We do what we do because of your generous financial support. Right now, we've got a $250,000 matching gift. You can give towards the match by calling us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE.

Thanks so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this kind of content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember, we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to NewLife.com to find out more information. Thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing, and we're so glad that you're here.