New Life LIVE

Guest (Male): Welcome to the New Life Live podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: Howdy friends, it's Brian Perez. Thank you so much for joining us today here on New Life Live. I'm joined by licensed marriage and family therapist JJ West and clinical psychologist Dr. Jill Hubbard. JJ, how are you?

JJ West: I'm great, and it's good to be on with you guys.

Brian Perez: Likewise. And Jill, what's new? What's on your mind?

Jill Hubbard: Well, I have a few things on my mind. Chris, JJ, I don't know if you're on with Chris much, but he usually does Confessions with Chris. He's rubbing off on me a little bit. This is not a full confession, but I do have to tell on myself a little bit. I'm calling this when your gloat turns to grimace and causes you grief.

In kind of how do we admit when we're wrong, I'm kind of mid-process in this situation. I'm not fully convinced yet that I'm wrong, but it's just been gnawing at me. Every year, we have an annual party on the same date every year. This party happened to have been last night, so it's very fresh in my mind.

We have been doing this party since high school. This was our 49th year, which tells you how old I am. When we first did this, my friend, who was raised Serbian and raised Serbian Orthodox, started this party in her parents' home. Let me tell you, this home was kind of a very unique museum-like. Lots of Serbian swords and medals, things all over the house.

No matter what time of year, the carpet was Christmas green, and the couches, bright red Christmas plaid, all year long. Every time you go to the party, no matter what time of year, you felt like it was Christmas time. I have never missed this party. 49 years I have gone to this party.

My rival has also not missed. Not my rival, but my friend. There's also a guy who has never missed this party. Last night, I show up at the party, and he's not there. I'm like, where is he? He's sick. Hallelujah!

I mean, I missed seeing him and having our annual picture as the two in the lead. I'm not even really a competitive person. But this has been 49 years in the making. Did I gloat? Of course I did. I gloated. Everybody was high-fiving me. They even did the victory tunnel that we filmed so we could send to him. We took a picture with "I won" and a trophy next to it.

This was a really big deal and I just was flying high. This was so fun. Even though he did try to be noble and say in his text he didn't want to contaminate the group, so he was bowing out of the competition.

I get home and I'm telling my daughter how excited I am, and she says, "Mom, I'm going to challenge you on that." I'm like, "What?" She says, "You weren't there every year." I said, "What? No, I was there. I had to be." She says, "You did not go there with a newborn."

In 1996, she was born three days before the party. I went, "Oh my gosh, no, I was there." She says, "You did not go there with a newborn." We've got to search for the pictures since that was before the digital age. I'm reminded of the verse she was growing up in first grade, Proverbs 12:22. "The Lord detests lying lips, but he delights in men and women who are truthful."

I'm reminded that integrity is about what you do when no one is watching. I'm wrestling. I'll let you know how it goes and what I'm going to do with this situation.

Brian Perez: What was the title of your thought again? When gloat and grimace kind of turn to grief. When your gloat turns to grimace and causes you grief. I'm in grief over this now. Well, we can get you some help, Jill. Call us. We'll be back on New Life Live.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Let's begin our time on the phones now with Trinity in Detroit, Michigan. You are a first-time listener. Welcome to New Life Live. How did you find out about us, Trinity?

Trinity: Somehow I got a text and I said, "Let me stop and call." I was out and about and I said, "Let me stop and call." I had this question spiritually. I don't know if it's generational in my life or what a cycle. I always seem to get in relationships, and it doesn't even be a full-blown relationship. It never gets to that point. It's always a third person that's competing to get with this one person to be able to move further. I don't know what's going on in my life as far as relationships.

JJ West: Trinity, can I ask a question? We're talking about romantic relationships?

Trinity: Yes.

JJ West: What you're saying is that frequently in your life, you've been involved in a romantic relationship or at least interested in a romantic relationship with someone, and then a third person comes along and they're also interested in or competing for the affections of this other person? Am I understanding you correctly?

Trinity: Correct. You got it correct. It's happened all of my life, all of my life, and I'm tired of that cycle.

Jill Hubbard: Are you usually with the person and there's an intruder that comes in, or are you also vying equally?

Trinity: We're vying equally since I've been an adult. When I was younger, like with my kids' father, it was somebody then, but I was actually in a relationship with him, and he had babies by different people. I don't know spiritually what's going on. Now that I'm an older adult, I'm in the position of vying for that person's interest with another person.

JJ West: It goes against how we're made in the image of God. God wants to be chosen. Over and over in scripture, we see this. Have no other Gods before me. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. He wants us to choose Him.

In the same way, being created in the image of God, we have that same desire to be chosen, to be wanted, to be adored. Like, "O come let us adore him," right? Emmanuel, that song is my favorite. I play it over and over.

It's universal, male and female, we all have that God-given characteristic of wanting to be chosen, to be adored. But I would say that it's a little bit more obvious or a little bit more easily seen in the heart of a woman. The heart of a woman displays that aspect of God's glory, of God's character, a little bit more readily than a man's heart.

I think what you're experiencing throughout your life has been this longing to be chosen, this longing for someone to say, "Trinity, I want you over everybody else. You stand alone. You stand in first place. There's nobody else in front of you." You long for that, and that's a good longing. That is a God-given, godly longing in your heart to be chosen that way.

The enemy of our soul always tries to thwart any progress we make God-ward, any expression of godly desire. The enemy always wants to thwart that. I think part of why you've experienced this throughout your life has been the work of the enemy to come against that very thing that God placed in your heart, that longing to be chosen. It's as though you have to somehow earn it. You have to position yourself to be the better choice instead of this other person, instead of the person that you're wanting to be in relationship seeing you and saying, "I choose to be with you because of who you are." You hit it perfect.

If in fact that is the characteristic of God given to me because I'm made in his image, God doesn't put on a show for us. God just is, and we fall in love with God because of who he is. I would hate it, Trinity, if you got to a place where you felt like you had to be something other than who you are in order to earn that first place, because I don't believe that's what God has for you.

Jill Hubbard: I love what JJ said. Which means, Trinity, I think you have to hold it a little more loosely. You have to be who you authentically are, not ignore men. It's good to smile at them and to be friendly, but not to feel like you're in a desperate competition. I know you didn't say that, but it can start to feel that way. Some women practically throw themselves at men. I don't know that's you.

Trinity: It really isn't. So much so that I'll back up. For instance, the other lady that's in this thing, she likes him too. But the Holy Spirit has just shown it to me. It's crazy. I know her. We both go to church together. With him, I think he kind of likes me for real, but I just back up because I've been through this so much that I've learned to let God handle what he wants to handle. If it's meant to be, then it'll be, but if not, maybe this is God blocking it and saying this might not be his will. I'm willing to go either way. It just hurts so bad.

Jill Hubbard: Trinity, what age range are you in?

Trinity: I'm 69.

Jill Hubbard: For us women, the older we get, the pool can feel smaller. We don't have as many options, whereas men have a bigger pool now, whereas when they were young, they didn't. That can be discouraging. I know you said this is your whole life, but now women can really be vying for the single guy.

Also looking at what type of guy do you want. If this is a man that laps up the flattery and is easily swayed, then that may not be the man for you. If you get into these and he's wishy-washy and going back and forth, then that's not what you want. You continue to be friendly and be who you are, but you don't have to compete.

JJ West: I would add one more thing. I think it's important to enlist the help of others in terms of having another perspective. When I met my wife, we were on a summer missions project. Most of the guys, my wife is incredibly beautiful, and most of the guys were interested in her. At the end, there was a no-dating policy on the project, which was good because we wanted to be focused on why we were there.

As the project was drawing to a close, I could see the sharks circling in the water around her. Even though I was very interested in her, I didn't want to be in that mix. I didn't want to be part of the feeding frenzy, so I was backing away. One of my friends pulled me aside and she said, "Listen, JJ, I really do think that she likes you and I would hate for you to miss out on something that God has for you because you just didn't want to be part of the feeding frenzy. Maybe at least just have a conversation with her."

I appreciated Amy's advice there because had I not listened to her, had I just followed my plan of I'm just going to back off, I don't need to be part of this competition, I would have missed an almost 30-year marriage. I want you to maybe talk with a friend or two to say, especially if they know you and know this other guy, I have an interest in him, I think he's interested in me, but I also see this other woman coming into the picture. What do you think? Do you think this is somewhere where he's being wishy-washy, he's going back and forth, I should back out, or is this actually from God and I should pursue it further rather than trying to make the decision all by myself?

Brian Perez: Trinity, thank you for calling in today. You got a random text on your phone. You could have just ignored it, but you called us, and we are so thankful to get to know you. Thanks for calling in today. We're going to send you a copy of Marc Cameron's book, Understanding Your Attachment Style, just for calling in today to New Life Live.

Now let's go to San Francisco. Here is Joy, who listens to us on NewLife.com. Hi, Joy. Thanks for calling into New Life Live today.

Joy: Hi. I just have a looming question. I've been struggling with my faith and I've struggled for quite a while. I'm almost certain some of it has to do with childhood trauma, fear and different things like that. I felt like I needed to be around people, stronger people. What I'm finding is that some of the people that I've encountered, when the rubber meets the road and they have a serious situation, they don't have the faith either. The faith that they say they do. They talk really good, but when I see them going through stuff, they jump into fear or doubt or even, as the Bible talks about, they will not endure sound doctrine.

I say, "Hey, what about Bible says this?" Even though I'm struggling with it, now I'm reminding them. It's just hard to find strong Christians so I can come out of this, I can grow. I know I'm supposed to keep my eyes on God, but I'm just struggling.

Brian Perez: Joy, I wonder if you're stronger than you think you are.

Jill Hubbard: I'm thinking of Joy, that iron sharpens iron. We all would like someone who is stronger than us, kind of like the all-good parent that would come along and help us and maybe protect us in a way that we didn't have, especially if you had childhood trauma. And yet what you're discovering is that everybody is pretty human. No matter their story, people struggle with doubts and fear. You're right. It's one thing to talk our faith, it's another thing to really internalize it and utilize it in those times of fear and doubt. But I think that's where the body of Christ comes in. When one person is starting to slip or takes their eyes off Jesus, the other one can lift them up and that we do that for each other.

JJ West: Joy, you said it's been hard to find authentic believers. Why is that? Are you part of a local church?

Joy: Right now I'm watching a lot on TV. I'm having some health issues. That's the thing is that the enemy, things for example like spiritual warfare, it seems like people don't really believe that, even though the Bible talks about it. I'm enduring, I'm encountering extreme spiritual warfare on every side: financial, health, family, everything. It's almost like unbelievable the stuff I'm going through. To find someone to walk alongside and check in on me is very difficult.

JJ West: I would encourage you, even though you've been having some health issues that have prevented you from attending, scripture's pretty clear we should not give up the gathering of believers. We should not abandon that. I want to encourage you to keep trying to find a community, a local community that's going to encourage you to grow. I know we're coming up on the break, so I'll share more later or as we come back.

Brian Perez: Yes, we will come back to you, Joy, so don't hang up. Stay right where you are. Thank you so much for calling in to New Life Live from San Francisco. Thank you for listening on NewLife.com. It's one of many ways that you can listen to New Life Live, not just on radio and YouTube and Facebook and SiriusXM, but even on our very own website. And the app, don't forget the New Life Live app.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live. Joy in San Francisco, are you still with us?

Joy: Yes.

JJ West: I just wanted to continue the thought of how important it is for us to have that Christian community. I do think it's important to be part of a local body of believers. Sometimes I can also find that in a recovery group, a Celebrate Recovery, a 12-step, something like that. But somewhere where I am experiencing the Christian life together with other people, I'm not just by myself. I'm not just listening.

Sometimes travel or whatever I have to do an online expression of the local church. But I don't want to rely on that solely because I'm not really known in that capacity. I'm listening, I'm learning, that's good, that's helpful, but I'm not known. I'm not doing life with other believers. As Jill talked about, iron sharpening iron so we sharpen one another. Peter talks about in First Peter that we're being built together as living stones. Living stones move around, they rub up against each other, they knock off the rough edges.

We want to be part of a local community that helps me to grow, not only to encourage me, but also to challenge me. Sometimes if I'm all by myself, I might have wrong beliefs about God and about myself. I want to have other people who can hold me accountable and ask me good questions.

Jill Hubbard: Just the relational aspect, Joy. I know we're kind of making a case for going in person and you said you've had some health issues. I don't know if you were part of a body and then you've had to step out because of the health issues or you've had long chronic health issues that have kept you away. That does make it more difficult.

We saw this through COVID. People got used to doing it online and it's just easier. "Okay, I did church." It's easy to opt for that and not maybe push yourself, whereas we would have in the past. It is that familiarity. People learn to trust who they see show up. It's that repeated exposure over time that helps with relationships and that causes people to rally around you.

If you can't go, I know people who do Zoom Bible studies where they're seeing each other and they're meeting week after week. That's an alternative to be involved with people where you have that repeated exposure, where there's praying together. I've had Bible study groups that I've met with over the years and then we'll have a prayer thread. Because we have history, then we do pray for each other or support each other or try to go meet a need. You have to have those things in place prior to the need. Otherwise, if people aren't connected, then people aren't going to just pick up necessarily and rally for you.

JJ West: And I won't likely reach out in crisis if I don't already have those relationships. But like you said, it can be done electronically. We do all of our follow-up groups, Sustained Victory, Sustained Healing, those are all done over Zoom, but it's interactive. It's not just me passively watching something happen. I'm interacting with people around me. I'm asking questions, they're asking questions. We're building relationship that way. I think that's vital.

Joy: I think the Zoom option, I can try that again. I have tried to get into small groups and things like that. I always seem to come in at a time when they're saying they're full or they're not having it right now. I can try to see if I can find a Zoom again. But in person, yes, it is difficult. I used to try to push myself, but that's not really an option at this time.

Jill Hubbard: Sometimes small groups, usually most churches yearly do a push for "join a small group." Sometimes they do have those groups online as well for people like you who can support each other. The other thing I wanted to mention, Joy, you talked about your childhood trauma. I am so sorry. That does add a dimension that makes relationships a little more complicated.

The spiritual warfare. It sounds like you're experiencing a lot of that. Whether people are focused on that, like believe in that or not, it doesn't mean it isn't true. I think there's this balance between looking at the spiritual warfare and realizing in this life we are going to have difficulties, and then also, okay, regardless, what do I need to take personal responsibility for? Kind of the balance between those two. Even if it is spiritual warfare, I still have to do some things. I have to lean into the Lord, I have to reach out and connect with people, I have to get my fear in check and make the changes.

Joy: I agree. I try to do all those things. I really do. That's why I'm not quick to say certain things unless I've tried with all my might. I really have. But still, no matter how hard I try, things contradict my efforts. It just keeps happening no matter what I do. If I could just real quick give an example. I had to make an appointment to make sure I keep my housing. I missed the appointment because I was sick for like three and a half weeks. I couldn't do it. I am now probably losing my housing because I missed that appointment. That kind of stuff.

Brian Perez: Joy, we're going to keep you in prayer and if everybody listening and watching could be praying for you as well. You know what? We're going to send you a copy of a book that we have in the NewLife.com store. It's by our friend, Dr. Henry Cloud. It's called Why I Believe. It will help you with these struggles that you have sometimes. We all have these struggles. We all have these doubts and everything. This book will definitely help you. Thank you, Joy, for calling in today here to New Life Live and thank you for listening on NewLife.com.

Hello, I'm Becky Brown. I am so excited to launch our 99 For The 1 partner initiative. Every day, we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression, all kinds of ways and it reminds us of the story in Luke 15 where the shepherd leaves the 99 to go rescue the one. We've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99 For The 1 is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE, 1-800-639-5433, or NewLife.com/99for1.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live. If you're feeling stuck in addiction, grief, anxiety, or broken relationships, you are not alone. Connecting with a life recovery group allows you to discover practical tools and biblical truth from the 12 steps of life recovery designed to help you heal, grow, and thrive. Recovery isn't just about what you're giving up. I think a lot of people think that. It's also about who you're becoming and knowing that your past does not have to define you. Visit NewLife.com to learn more about Christian recovery groups.

Let's go back to the phones now. Here is Bob in Knoxville, Tennessee, who's listening to us on WRJZ. Hey there, Bob. Thanks for calling in today to New Life Live.

Bob: Hello, thanks for taking my call. I listen to you quite often. I've listened to you for years. Now I'm having to use you to try to get a little advice. My question is about our situation where my wife has some- we're just recently married and come to find out she has these problems from her past and where we had some trauma. She had surgery then I had an accident like back-to-back here. All this stuff has come back and she has brought all that stuff out from her past and she's attached it to me like I've done this stuff to her.

She won't even talk to me and she goes to- she was going to counseling before we were married because we'd had some issues coming up before we got married, which I thought we had all that taken care of. Come to find out it's a lot worse than I realized that it was. She won't talk to me. We've met with our pastor a couple of times and she refuses to go to marriage counseling together. We are going to counseling separately. No communication. I've had no communication with her other than when I've met with the pastor two times in the last three months.

After I moved out, we've not had any communication. It was so bad I thought it would help her settle down by me moving out, but she wouldn't let me come back. I thought it would just be for a few days, but it's been three months and we've not talked in three months.

Brian Perez: Bob, how long have you been married? I think it was five months. That's what it says on the screen here. JJ, what were you going to say?

JJ West: Bob, when you guys have met with the pastor, has she shared with you why she's refusing to communicate or why she's refusing to go to marriage counseling together with you?

Bob: Well, she says she's- well that's the reason I moved out, one reason I moved out. She started saying that she didn't feel safe around me. She kept saying that and there's no reason for her to feel that way. She hit me one time, which is just out of the blue. It's just her since she's got sick and all this has happened. She's been like that like she just explodes.

I was just walking in behind her and touched her on the shoulder. We was going in the house and this was right after I had surgery. I just touched her on the shoulder. She unlocked the door and she turned around and just gave me a look like she could run through me. Then she just backhanded me and she hit me right below my bicep. It's just a burst of anger. She started apologizing for it.

When we met with the pastor, the pastor says we need to meet together to work our problems out. Well, the problem she's saying is like I'm lying and this. When we met with the pastor, I tried to drag this out. "What are you talking about? What is these issues that you're talking about?" She'll never say what they are. It's always vague. I've not done anything to her. Of course during this we've argued a lot because she's just been so angry. I was just trying to work with her and trying to figure out what's going on with her. I'm just kind of lost with this.

Jill Hubbard: Bob, you guys have been married five months. Is this first marriage, second marriage?

Bob: No, this is my fourth marriage and her seventh marriage. I'm 62 and she's 64. We're older.

Jill Hubbard: Her seventh marriage. Right there, there's obviously been problems sustaining relationships. You're saying the trigger was you having an accident and her getting sick. She got sick on her honeymoon. She got sick and you had an accident. These are bad things that happen in life, but not usually anyone's fault.

If she's not doing her work in between marriages to look at, okay, she's the common denominator, what is going wrong, what keeps coming up, what will happen is as soon as you become a significant other and it's in a committed relationship, now all of her hurts and traumas are getting projected onto you as if you have been the perpetrator of all of her life's hurts. Because each man probably was supposed to be the answer to healing her. When you fail to do that, as most of those were when she was younger, then she got into church like her last two marriages.

The last one she had started in 1997, then her husband died. They were married until 2012. Then she remarried after that and they divorced, which was a short marriage. The last 25 years it's kind of been less. Then she got into church in when she got into that marriage too, they went to church together.

JJ West: Bob, how long have you known your wife?

Bob: We've known each other a little over a year. We go to church together and been going to church together. She started going to my church.

JJ West: So you knew each other about six months when you got married?

Bob: No, it's been over a year. We started dating like a year and then we broke up once, so we've known each other about a year before we got married and then we've been married for about five months.

JJ West: So you didn't have a lengthy relationship with her to see some of these patterns that might have shown up in the relationship before you got married. But certainly as Jill said, now that you are married, now that you're in this committed relationship, now you become the focal point for all of this past trauma and all of this past pain that she's experienced kind of gets all attributed to you. Is she responsive at all to are the pastors encouraging her to come to counseling with you?

Bob: No, she refuses. She flat refuses. He's mentioned to her twice that we need to get together. I wanted to just go to marriage counseling, which that's what she said we would do when we separated, but she won't do it. She absolutely refused. It's just like not even the same person that I mean, her personality. She's lying about stuff. Before we got married, she would never do that. Her personality's like changed.

Jill Hubbard: That's where I said she in a lot of people get caught up in the fantasy of what could be and all of the hormones that get stirred up when we're dating someone. Then the reality that sets in of who this person is or that she doesn't feel any different and that you didn't make her feel different, that you failed in that way. Now you're getting the brunt. A lot of times there's idealization and then it like flips a switch and there's the devaluing. It sounds like you're in that stage and that is a really hard place to be in, Bob.

We haven't even touched on you and the fact that this is your fourth marriage. I think it's important that with every new relationship, we have to do some work and looking at ourselves to make sure we are ready and that we are seeing what we need to see in moving forward. Because you will always take you into the next relationship. If you don't do the work in between, you're going to repeat the patterns again and again.

JJ West: Jill, you're absolutely right. That idealization and then vilification. It's not uncommon for someone who may be struggling with like borderline personality. I'm not saying that that's exactly what's going on, but there's a lot of similarities there. The more you defend yourself, the worse it gets.

Brian Perez: Bob, thanks for calling in. We'll be right back and we'll send you a resource from the NewLife.com store so don't hang up.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live. Got a few minutes left here on New Life Live. Brian Perez here with Dr. Jill Hubbard and JJ West and we're talking to Bob in Knoxville, Tennessee. So where does Bob go next? His wife doesn't want to go to counseling and we've heard Bob's story.

Jill Hubbard: Bob, you are in a tough situation because it's likely she's convinced you are to blame for everything. Like I said before, the more you try to defend and shed some reality from your perspective, the worse it'll get. I think Bob, at this point, if she's not talking to you and she's not willing to go to counseling, you have to continue doing the counseling work yourself and looking at what JJ we were talking at the break about what he missed in not seeing things, what caused him to maybe move too quickly in relationship here and working on being the best Bob possible.

Women, even when they say absolutely not, they will be watching. I think to constantly invite to say, "I'm working on myself, I'm working on the things that you have shared with me that you are upset about," so you want to acknowledge that you've heard her even if you think they aren't real, and invite her into doing some couples work.

JJ West: It's going to be important for you to do some grief work. There's going to be a need to grieve the loss of what you hoped this relationship would be because it hasn't turned out to be that. I need to grieve that. It may ultimately be that you have to grieve the relationship itself. Unfortunately, you can't make somebody participate in counseling. You can't make somebody participate in the healing process. Obviously if you could you would, you would force her to come to counseling so we can fix the marriage, we can repair this, but you can't make her do that. The focus has to then be on what can I work on in me?

What changes can I make in who I am and how I relate to others? That may open the door for her to come in and then participate. Obviously like Jill said, you keep inviting, but if ultimately she says no, she's identified you're the problem and she never comes off of that, at the very least you can work on your own grief process as well as I'm going to take me into the next relationship, should there be another relationship, and it doesn't have to just be romantic. I take me into my friendships as well. Am I willing to work on how I do relationship?

It may be really helpful to either read the book How We Love by Milan and Kay Yerkovich or Mark's new book Understanding Your Attachment Style as a way to do some of that individual work.

Jill Hubbard: Those would be great books. We were also mentioning there's a book that we don't have, it's called Stop Walking On Eggshells that talks about dealing with people who seem to be like what you're describing.

Brian Perez: And we also have the Life Recovery Workbook for Grief in the NewLife.com store. So many different resources there. But we'll send you a copy of Mark's book, Understanding Your Attachment Style. Because yeah, if things- I mean it would just be good for you in any relationship, not just for romantic relationships, but even in friendships. It's good to know what your attachment style is.

So even if the other person doesn't want to go through the counseling, but to do your own work so that the other person you're almost challenging them. You're almost telling the other person, "Watch, I'm going to become a different person, I'm going to change." Now that person's eyes are on you all the time. So my fear is one little mistake you make and the other person says, "Aha, I knew this wasn't going anywhere."

Jill Hubbard: Of course. And consistency is key. Do your words and your actions match? You're not just doing it to say, "See, look at me, I'm doing the work." You're doing it because it's what has needed to happen all along. Whether you're in the marriage or out of the marriage, you still need to do this work. You're doing that and becoming more secure in yourself. Then if you do get a chance to talk with her or meet with her, you can have compassion for the fact that wow, all that has happened to her that would stir up her lack of safety. That the slightest offense or disappointment or life circumstance would cause her to be so enraged and attacking. Not that you say it that way. You can apologize even if your part is 10%, even if something has triggered her to have all these feelings. You can apologize for that, for being unaware of the depth of her pain and not being more sensitive to it.

JJ West: We're 100% responsible for our part, whatever my part is, whatever percentage my part is, I'm 100% responsible for it. We choose to do the right thing because it's the right thing. I'm going to continue to work on me because that's the right thing to do regardless of whether you see it or not. If I'm only doing it to get your attention or to get you back or let me come back in the house, that's just a high-grade manipulation. I'm going to choose to do the right thing because it's the right thing. If you happen to see it and that happens to move your heart closer to mine, great, but I am doing this, I'm working on me because I need to grow.

You have to let go of outcomes. Whatever the outcome, you've got to be in the journey and in the process. It can't be just so you can get back in the house. It has to be that you care enough about her that you want her to be able to feel safe enough with you. I want to be a safe person for you regardless of whether you ever let me be back in your life. I want to be a safe person. If my lack of compassion over what you've been through gets in the way of me being a safe person for you, I want to work on that because that's going to show up in other relationships: other friendships, other romantic relationships, other familial relationships.

Brian Perez: We do something here at New Life Ministries called the Intimacy and Marriage Weekend Intensive. We have them throughout the year. You can visit our website NewLife.com or call us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE to find out when the next one is. JJ, would Bob and his wife benefit- what would they learn if they were to attend the Intimacy and Marriage Weekend?

JJ West: Well, in their present state, maybe not. Only because right now she's not willing to participate in the process. But let's say that she gets to a place where she says, "Okay, I'm willing to participate, I'm willing to work with you on the relationship," then yes, they would benefit from it because it's going to help them to identify these core patterns from their own childhood. That's what's going on with Bob's wife. There's trauma from her past that is impacting her present relationship.

There's an old saying that Milan Yerkovich used to say, "Anything that's hysterical is historical." She's having this hysterical response that has historical roots in her story, her pain. As well as, by the way, Bob. He's got some of his own pain, his own trauma that's informing the way he does relationship. What we do, we start to unpack for those who attend what those core patterns are and how to now not let that control how I do relationship in the present and future. I can learn to identify, "Oh, that's my core pattern," but I learn a new way of relating by practicing active listening, by having compassion for where that person's coming from, by doing my own inner work of healing so that I'm not allowing these traumas to control me in the future.

Brian Perez: All right, that just about does it for today's episode of New Life Live. Thanks so much for listening and for watching. It's because of you that lives are being changed every day through New Life Ministries. Your support brings real hope through these daily radio broadcasts that speak truth and healing into hurting hearts and these transformative workshops like Intimacy and Marriage that guide people through deep healing. You can support our work by going to our website NewLife.com or by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE. We'll talk to you next time on New Life Live. God bless.

Guest (Male): Thanks so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to NewLife.com to find more information. And thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing, and we're so glad that you're here.