New Life LIVE

Guest (Male): Welcome to the New Life LIVE podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: Hello and welcome to New Life LIVE. I'm your host, BP, Brian Perez. It also stands for breaking protocol. I'm going to go right to the phones right now. How do you like that? We've got Becky Brown. She's a licensed professional clinical counselor and the president of New Life Ministries. So Becky, if I'm overstepping my boundaries, let me know now. I've also got Dr. John Townsend here, who wrote the book on boundaries. So if I am overstepping my boundaries, let me know, and I will not go right to the phones. What say you, Becky?

Becky Brown: No, go right to the phones. Let's talk to people.

Dr. John Townsend: Brian, your personality is coming out today.

Brian Perez: Man, I read this book and now I'm just breaking everything. There are no boundaries. I'm joking. Kathy in Houston, Texas, who just found out about New Life LIVE. Thank you so much for calling in today. Who told you about the show?

Kathy: Hello. I found it months ago but very periodically if I happen to be in my car at the right time. Today, it really spoke to me. I'm driving five hours, so the Lord knew that I have to have patience. I was a captive audience, and so here I am waiting for a miracle.

Brian Perez: Let's hear it. What's going on in your life?

Kathy: My husband and I are 53 years married. We married as teenagers, both from alcoholic families, unemotional. We just felt we had to be together. So we pretty much drank and partied our way through college and our 20s. We thought it was time to have a child, our first. Anyway, in our 30s, I was just feeling empty all the time. I don't know why. It's why I drank so much.

I started hearing about adult children of alcoholics. So I started going to counseling as I could afford it. Over the decades, I have done as much as I can and learned so very much. My husband, on the other hand, wants nothing to do with it. We are the typical couple. When the second child left home, we had nothing to talk about, and I'm not exaggerating.

Melvin does nothing. We do nothing together. I have suggested, "Hey, maybe you want to come kayaking or hiking," or "You think of something. Do you want to go to movies?" His counseling reasons back then were, "No, if you need help, you go. I'm fine the way I am."

I have tried gently over the decades saying, "Melvin, I am so sad and lonely in this marriage." I said, "We have nothing in common. We have nothing to talk about." That's why I don't like going to games anymore, or anything with long rides because I read and he has his sports things on.

In our married life, he will just say things two or three times because he never remembers that he said it first. He's just not aware of any of that. His life is fine if I'm not asking him to go to counseling or whatever. He just thinks everything is fine. We have no spiritual intimacy. We have no emotional intimacy, no Christian intimacy, and certainly no physical intimacy the last couple years.

I told him it feels so uncomfortable when you want to have sex because it's the only time you ever touch me. I said, "You're very good at it, but I can do just as well myself without all the uncomfortableness of my being naked and your touching me when you don't ever want to otherwise." So I am like the one lady. I am sad and lonely. I fill my life with friends and serving the Lord and traveling and going and trying to stay out of the house as much as I can because I'm tense.

Becky Brown: Kathy, you have done your work. You have done your homework, and you speak with clarity and understanding. It is heartbreaking to have a life where you've been pursuing clarity and your husband doesn't join you in that. The highlight of this is he's barricaded himself in wherever his pain is, and you're trying to dig through 30 plus years, 50 years of that pain. We'll come back after this break.

Brian Perez: Kathy, stay on hold, and everyone else, we're going to get to as many calls as we can with our guest Dr. John Townsend joining us once again here on New Life LIVE. We'll be right back.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

Brian Perez: We are speaking with Kathy in Houston, Texas. Becky, we came up to the break, so we couldn't finish what you were saying. Go ahead, take it away.

Becky Brown: I hear you, Kathy. I just want you to know I hear you. You are trying to do all the things. Do you know enough about your husband's past to understand where the pain is that's been covered up by alcohol and disconnection?

Kathy: Yes, his dad committed suicide when he was ten. I don't think his mother or he talked about it very much. He says, "I just don't want to talk about it. I don't need to bring all that stuff back up. I'm fine." Now his excuse is, "I'm just too old to go into all that." As long as I quit talking about it, he thinks everything's peachy keen again.

If I ever walked up to him and said, "I need a separation. I'm just so tense living here, Melvin," he would be shocked to death. As a Christian, I can't get a divorce because I don't have a reason to get a divorce. So I just see this despair until death here. I don't want to pray for him to die early so I would have a chance to meet someone who I would have an adult, loving, kind, fun relationship with. It's a horrible thing. I don't want to pray for that obviously, and I just see nothing changing for me. I'm hoping y'all will do something miraculous.

Becky Brown: I just want to make one suggestion. I know that you feel like you've done everything, but when you think about the pain that he's carried for all these years, he doesn't want to talk about it because it will overwhelm him. That's the reason why you have had this disconnected life for so many years. It's not your fault. It's just this is what people do.

"I don't want to touch the thing that is threatening everything." Here's a weird suggestion. I would suggest that you have a marriage counseling session. You're going to invite him into it whether he wants to go or not. I would say it would be with somebody who does EMDR. He needs a safe place. He's hurting, he's in pain. What's happening to you, though, Kathy, this is undoing you as well. I think that there's great potential for great healing, but there is no way forward without a concerted effort together. It's going to take some changes that he's not going to be comfortable with. John?

Dr. John Townsend: Kathy, does he love you?

Kathy: He shows his love by taking my car to get it filled up. He'll grill and cook and make pots of something, or take care of all the animals. He will do stuff. He wants nothing to do with emotion. He's the acts of service guy.

Dr. John Townsend: Let me add some things to what Becky's been saying because I can imagine him stonewalling you if you say marital therapy. But I agree. I think it's beyond his skill level to deal with. He's overwhelmed. And I think it's beyond your skill level to change it. You've done a lot of stuff. So here's a several-step way to look at this.

One is the invitation. You've been inviting him to open up, you've been inviting him to take walks, you've been inviting him to go. You've done that. The invitation to get in therapy is "I'm going to go to marital therapy and talk about us, including you. I'd like for you to be there when I do." A lot of husbands or wives will say, "I'd better be in on that one. It's about me."

Suppose he keeps stonewalling. Then you go to stage two, which is the warning. We have to warn each other sometimes when people are getting ready to go off a cliff and say, "I really, you're my number one. You are my alpha of alphas except for God. But I've got to tell you, if we don't get some help because I'm dying here. I think when I'm quiet, you think I'm okay. I'm not okay when I'm quiet. When you hear quiet, you hear your wife that you love in deep pain."

The warning is I will begin distancing. Not any bad stuff, not infidelity, but I'm going to be spending time with people that I can connect with and I may not be here. Sometimes people have to do that and say, "I'm going to be out with the gals doing holy stuff and godly stuff and volunteering stuff. I'd like to be with you, but I'm not if it's empty." Sometimes the guy will go, "Wow, Kathy's warm and I like it when she's around and life is good. It's getting lonely here, and all I've got to do is say I'll go to one session or two sessions." A lot of guys will go, "Okay, I'll try it because I miss you." You're leveraging the attachment in a healthy way.

The third one is just to say that's not working either and you're fine if I'm not crying and you think everything is good. So I'm going to follow through on that and that's going to be it. I don't even want to say this, but some marriages are so severe. I don't hear that yet, but there's a thing called de-investment. De-investment does not mean infidelity. It does not mean divorce. It does not mean anything. It doesn't mean moving out. It just means I'm now going to expect less of a dry well until he ever decides and you live that way. Many times though, in those cases, the spouse will finally go, "You're safe, you're nice, you're warm. I'm tired of not having you around enough." That would be the path. Sorry it goes that way, but it sometimes does.

Becky Brown: You're talking, John, about him getting more uncomfortable. Kathy, you're uncomfortable, but you don't know how to make him uncomfortable because he takes care of the dogs and he does all the things. Here's a challenge. This is the deep end. You could go to Intimacy in Marriage together. That is a deep end. But it could make all the difference in the world.

One of the things that we do at the workshop is we teach couples to have a conversation that is more than, "How are you? I am fine." It's called the Comfort Circle. It's out of the book How We Love. One of the questions in there is really a universal question for everybody. Give me three feeling words for your day. You're not asking for, because if you ask somebody who's not done their work or doesn't understand the language of emotions how they are, the word is going to be fine. They're not going to go further than that. You can make a change in your relationship by asking different questions. But I agree with what you're talking about, John. We've got to have more conversations. He's got to get more uncomfortable, not in a threatening way, but just.

Dr. John Townsend: It's kind of like I used to do a lot of mandated counseling when the judge would say, "Well, this person robbed banks. They have to come to therapy." They don't like it, but they have to. Sometimes you have to do that with a spouse. It's the only place we can get close and heal. I'm not doing anything bad, but there's got to be some leverage sometimes.

Becky Brown: Kathy, you're the only one that's irritated about this whole thing. He's got to become more irritated. We're going to share in the misery. But we don't want you to be miserably married, Kathy. We want you to lean into asking some good questions and being aware that it's not going to change overnight. Your husband has the potential to get healing, and I've seen it. I've seen it.

Brian Perez: Kathy, thanks for calling into New Life LIVE today. Brian Perez here with Becky Brown and our guest Dr. John Townsend from the Townsend Institute. You can learn more about the Townsend Institute at townsendinstitute.com. Another phone call now, and we've got lots of them. Rosa in Hilton Head, Georgia, who was referred to us by a friend. Well, what a great friend you have. Thank you so much for calling in today. What's your question for us?

Rosa: Hello. I'm calling for advice on I'd like to have a breakthrough in my Christian marriage. I've been married for 16 years, 20 years altogether. We have three kids, 13 and up. My husband is 27. The lows in our marriage began in 2022, and in 2023 he admitted that he had taken a woman out on a date twice.

I feel stuck because I'm standing on the covenant with God, which was monogamy, and he's changed because he is now really studying the Bible. He says that he believes he is polygynous now, which is one man, many wives, because it's in the Old Testament. And so I'm standing on the covenant and I do not want divorce.

I am warring in the spirit. He's twisting scripture and staying out late at night. Polygyny is illegal in the United States. He says his love for me is real. I have close girlfriends, I volunteer at charities, I have a marriage small group that I'm in. And here it is, he's abusing alcohol. I believe this is a midlife crisis. I believe he has grief and he suffers with obesity, porn, and masturbation. So it's really, I'm trying to get my breakthrough by going at it in the spirit because the renewing of mind is what I need. I'm just asking for advice right now because I really hope that there's something more that I could be thinking of right now.

Becky Brown: Rosa, first of all, I'm so sorry and I agree with the principles of everything that you've said. And there's also a reality check here. He isn't keeping his covenant in so many ways. The polygamy thing, it is illegal, and that's not even a conversation.

Dr. John Townsend: Not only that, but the New Testament says husband of one wife, too. So it's different than him reading Old Testament stuff that's descriptive, not prescriptive.

Becky Brown: But it doesn't sound to me, Rosa, like he's interested in the truth.

Rosa: Correct. He wants to argue the Bible. He's an attorney, so he can make any argument. He says he's a man of law, which is why he's thinking the Old Testament is where he needs to base everything off of. He wants to become Jewish. A midlife crisis is the best explanation that I have for what he's doing. He hasn't renounced Jesus or anything like that and he still uses the word Yeshua for Jesus. But I think, is he just deluded? Is this just the alcohol, the midlife crisis? Or is he just creating a scenario that could be impossible for me but not believe anything of it at all? As an attorney, he knows it's illegal, but at the same time, he's telling me that's what he wants to do.

Dr. John Townsend: I'm with Becky on this. I'm just grieving for you. Let me give you some ideas. If he's a man of law, there's something there. He thinks in a logical, rational way. I would challenge him to talk to a healthy pastor. If he goes, "No, I'm a Jew now," then talk to a healthy rabbi. I've got tons of great rabbi friends. None of them would support what he's doing. Get the smartest one you know, at least to give him some tension about this.

Since you can't tell anybody what to believe, I think what I would say is, "I can't change what you believe about marriage and I want to stay married and I love you and even with your taking those women out and dates, I can forgive. But there are things I will not tolerate. And even though you think polygamy is fine, I don't, and I'm not going to argue your attorneying. I've made my stand. I've studied my Bible on that. So you can believe it. But if you act on it, I'm going to have one of us leave." I don't mean divorce. I just don't think you have to do that. But somebody's got to leave, and I would say you're out of the house if you do that. I'm not going to chase you around and look, but if there's evidence of that, then we're done until you decide that you want me and me alone.

You can believe in polygamy all the rest of your life. It's not a great thing. But if you stay faithful just to me, that's it. In other words, what I'm challenging you to do, Rosa, is go with the behavior. We won't try to change the belief system. That's great, but if he just stays with his, he's probably got something addictive inside that wants to justify this. Then say, "Okay, you don't have to believe it. But the behavior is going to tell me what I do with our relationship."

Becky Brown: You mentioned, Rosa, you were talking about you think it might be a midlife crisis. John, talk about what happens for men in this situation because it sounds like he's trying to blow up his whole life.

Dr. John Townsend: Many times it's a blow-up in order to reconstruct a life that never was. They idealize the past, as in "I was a great athlete and I looked good and everybody liked me and all this money and everything," and it never was that good. But it's a way for a person to get away from adapting and grieving and making the best of now. And so they go back there and then it blows everything else up. But it's an attempt to reconstruct it in a better way, and it's a bad idea.

Brian Perez: Rosa, thanks for calling in today on New Life LIVE and we know that happens a lot in a lot of marriages, a lot of relationships where the midlife crisis rolls in. But like Dr. John Townsend just said, it's a fantasy. It's not even based in reality. And Jesus said, "I want to give you a new life, not a midlife, a new life." I love that. We'll be back on New Life LIVE.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

Brian Perez: Licensed professional clinical counselor Becky Brown and president of New Life Ministries is on the show today. So is Dr. John Townsend. You know him because we talk about him all the time. Good things, of course. He wrote the Boundaries series of books and so much more. He's also the main, he started, he founded the Townsend Institute. So tell people about the Townsend Institute, John.

Dr. John Townsend: Sure, it's the Townsend Institute of leadership and counseling at Concordia University Irvine, California. We have an online graduate program which gives a person an opportunity to have the dream, the passion, the career they always wanted. The three programs are you can get a master's or a doctorate in counseling, get licensed. Forbes magazine made it the number one online program in counseling PhD not in the Christian world but in the world-world.

Basically, now we have what's called CACREP approved, so we've got all the bells and whistles. The second one, if you want to be a leader because you feel the passion for changing people and being on teams and influencing people, we have a master's in organizational leadership. The third, if you like to coach people, kind of see what their potential is, what's under the hood, draw it out from them, give them skills, we have an executive coaching master's. Our students are getting great jobs from all over the world and they feel like there's a new life lift on life, and we're based on my books, certainly the Bible, neuroscience, and the people come out with a really, really great education.

Brian Perez: townsendinstitute.com. Check it out, sign up. Maybe you know someone, maybe a child or grandchild who's exhibiting these leadership skills or whatever at a young age. Let them know about the Townsend Institute.

Dr. John Townsend: Right. And if you apply in the next few days, because we're doing our, we do it by semester by semester. If you apply and check in, we'll waive your application fee if you'll say the magic words. Here they are: "I heard about it on New Life LIVE." Because we are partners with New Life LIVE and if you say those words, it's not going to cost you anything for the application fee.

Brian Perez: Not the tuition. It's not going to cost you anything. Thank you, Brian. Precision clarity, Brian. Just want to make sure. I called Brian up one day.

Becky Brown: I also want to just add on to what you're saying, John. Being in this field for as long as I have, it is a gift to have that combination of faith-based clinical work. I mean, it just, there are so many things out there that say, "Oh, you should learn from us." I can't say enough about the people that I know that have gone through the program. We have some that are serving on our New Life board, and I just can't say enough. If this is a calling that God has for your life, the Townsend Institute is where you need to start.

Dr. John Townsend: Thanks, Becky. Our approach is we don't say psychology and theology are equivalent disciplines that you put into a Waring blender or anything. We say that psychology must always bend its knee to the Bible. And good psychology will come out as fresh as a daisy, but the crazy stuff, if the Bible says no, we don't teach it.

Brian Perez: townsendinstitute.com. Let's go to Mary in Riverside who's watching us on YouTube. Hello, Mary. Welcome to New Life LIVE.

Mary: Hi, hello.

Brian Perez: You're on with Becky Brown and Dr. John Townsend. How can we help you?

Mary: Well, first of all, I love the video from John Townsend a long time ago and I can't find the video anymore. He talks about boundaries being negotiables and your non-negotiables, and I love that.

Dr. John Townsend: Thank you. I'm glad it was helpful.

Mary: Yes. And so now I find myself, I have a 42-year-old son and we're sharing the truck and he took the truck to work and he told one of the guys at work, "Hey, tell me when I'm too close so I can stop." The guy failed to say it loudly and he ended up, the front fender is gone now. He came to me and he told me, "Mom, I'm very upset. First of all, I'm sorry, Mom, but this is what happened at work and now the front fender's gone. I have it, but it's," and I said, "Okay, well first of all, I need to know, are you okay? Are you safe? Did you get hurt?" And he said, "No, thank God I didn't get hurt, Mom." I said, "Okay, great. So now it's just something that we have to work on and we eventually have to get a new fender."

Right now he's working, but the job is like an assignment. So sometimes when he gets the assignment, it's great. When he doesn't, then it's two weeks off from work. He's trying to save up money, he's trying to get money. I said, "Okay, well let's just start from the beginning. First, let's find out how much the fender is and see if we can find out what it is first to get it fixed and all that." He said, "Well Mom, can you just let me know if we go to the dealership versus how much it would be on Amazon and let's go from there?" And I said, "Yeah, we can do that."

Brian Perez: So what's your main question for us, Mary?

Mary: Well, I don't think this is a boundary. I think this is just something that me and him need to financially come together and work it out, correct?

Dr. John Townsend: We don't know. I'm sorry, I don't know the question.

Mary: The question is how do I approach this? Because I don't know.

Brian Perez: Yeah, how do you approach the conversation to solve the problem? We will find out when we come back. Mary, thank you so much for calling today to New Life LIVE. If you've just joined us, my name is Brian Perez. We just heard the voice of Dr. John Townsend from the Townsend Institute, author of several books, million sellers on the New York Times bestseller list, and he's here with us today. He's here with you today on New Life LIVE. And we've got Becky Brown here too. She's a licensed professional clinical counselor and the president of New Life Ministries. And we are so glad that you've taken the time to join us today here on New Life LIVE and we will be right back.

Becky Brown: Hello, it's Becky Brown. I am so excited to launch our 99 For the One partner initiative. Every day we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression, all kinds of ways. It reminds us of the story in Luke 15 where the shepherd leaves the 99 to go rescue the one.

And you know, we've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life, and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99 For the One is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE, 1-800-639-5433 or newlife.com/99for1.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

Brian Perez: Talking to Mary in Riverside. Becky, take it away.

Becky Brown: Mary, this is a problem. But when you describe all that has gone on, I don't hear that it's a 42-year-old man. I hear it's like a 15-year-old. I don't know what all the backdrop is about that, but he is responsible, period. That's the short answer. But John has a much more graceful answer with some steps that will take you to the next page.

Dr. John Townsend: Yeah, it was just, gosh, it's no sin to say, "Well, my job's kind of a gig economy side hustle thing. I can only make money when I've got money." So he gets on a time schedule with you and if it costs $100 or $1,500, I don't know, then you say, "What's a reasonable amount of time you can have this paid?" And I think if he is a guy who's got adult functions and integrity and loves his mom, he'll probably say, "Oh, I can do that because I do get money in from time and then." It might take you longer than you'd like, but I think that'd be a fair thing to do, Mary. What do you think?

Mary: That is such a good idea. I don't know why I didn't think about that.

Dr. John Townsend: Well good. Well call us back and let us know how the conversation went. We are on your side here.

Becky Brown: Right. And I think the reason why you probably didn't think of it, Mary, is because you get overwhelmed with the story. He's telling you this and then there's more that goes with it. The bottom line is there's a problem, we've got to find a solution, he's got to be responsible. How can we work that out?

Dr. John Townsend: And we still love each other. This is not going to mess up anything.

Brian Perez: Mary, thanks for your phone call today on New Life LIVE. And now let's talk to Lorenzo in New York, New York. Welcome to the program, Lorenzo.

Lorenzo: Good evening, sir. How you doing? So I wanted to find out about phobias. Is there deliverance and freedom from phobias? You got all kind of phobias out there. People are afraid of heights.

Dr. John Townsend: Let's talk about Lorenzo's phobias. Bring it in the room a little bit here, Lorenzo. What's your phobia?

Lorenzo: Mine is dealing with getting sick, or being around somebody that's sick, a fear of that. I'm trying to figure out how did I get it, and how do I overcome it and get freedom from it?

Brian Perez: Fear of getting sick, do you just mean like a cold or flu, or are you talking about like disability or what do you mean?

Lorenzo: Getting sick like cold, flu, upset stomach, somebody around me. Anything like that.

Becky Brown: I mean, my first thought is have you had that experience, Lorenzo? Is that where it started or has this always been part of your journey?

Lorenzo: I know when I was young, I know my mother had gotten sick a long time ago and I would dream about it a lot, and that's how the phobia came on.

Becky Brown: What's interesting about phobias is they are mental obsessions and you're trying to exert control in situations where you don't have any control.

Dr. John Townsend: And this one in particular is hypochondriasis.

Becky Brown: Yes, there's an official name for it, Lorenzo. But I also think that you've probably been sick since you first had the thought, right?

Lorenzo: Before, yes.

Becky Brown: Yeah. So and you survived that. So I know the rational, see I'm being rational, but that doesn't help when you have this emotional obsession that's going on, the hypochondriasis like John's talking about. A rational response isn't going to make that feel better. There's going to have to be a process at which you address what's going on internal, making those connections so that you don't have the distress. I know that one of your questions was is there deliverance and freedom? I believe there is, but it comes in different forms than just a prayer and an experience. Now some people have had that, but it's just one of the complications of dealing with something that's been a lifelong journey. John, what say you?

Dr. John Townsend: Yeah, Lorenzo. I agree with Becky that there is deliverance and freedom. Let me just kind of go over how the Bible and the research tie in on this. Phobias are well-researched. It's a fear of something irrational. If I'm afraid of somebody driving down the road at me at 70 miles an hour, that's not a phobia. That's realistic. But the fear of getting sick all the time in this case you would be someone who suffers from hypochondriasis is not rational but it has roots and they're not rational roots but they're real.

Anytime you've got an anxiety, this is a type of anxiety. Panic is a type of anxiety, phobias are a type of anxiety. Anxiety is a desire to control something we can't control. So we get scared when there's a relationship escalating. We get scared when we feel like I might have a cold because who knows where that would go. And we can't control things and the anxiety ramps up and then our adrenal system gets jacked and all these bad things happen. But the anxiety is often covering something else and when you said that about your mom, I wondered how that affected you because we love our moms and dads and all that. It might be that you need to get with someone good, a good Christian friend or pastor or pastoral counselor or therapist and just say maybe I haven't grieved over having a mom that was sick a lot and how hard that was on me.

It may be the fact that you are still identifying with her because you haven't pulled away and said it was hard on me. Sure I felt sorry for her. She was a wonderful person. But it was hard on me as a kid to never know if she was going to be well or not, die or not. There may be some grief feelings you need to feel about that. In that case, and here's how the math goes, Lorenzo. The deeper emotion is covered by the anxiety. You get to the deeper emotion, which in this case is often grief, then the anxiety resolves.

Brian Perez: Lorenzo, thanks for calling us today here on New Life LIVE. Let's talk to Sarah in Las Vegas who's listening to us on newlife.com. Hey, Sarah. Thanks for calling in today.

Sarah: Hi. I'm trying to, maybe I'll start with the question first and then I'll give you all the background.

Brian Perez: You must have been on the radio before. That's how it should work. Way to go, Sarah.

Sarah: No, I've just been listening. Anyway, question is, how do I place my 80-year-old husband who had hip surgery a few weeks ago because he fell on his hip and was diagnosed with vascular dementia about a year ago and it's very mild? It's still in the beginning stage. I need to place him in a board and care. I'm his sole caregiver. It's too much for me but especially he had balance issues before this and he walked very slowly.

My daughter is worried because I have to place him in a board and care, which is about 5,000, 6,000 a month. My daughter and her husband are very upset because they put it in a nice way but they're worried about their inheritance. "Oh what? We don't want him reducing our inheritance or wiping it all out."

Dr. John Townsend: Sarah, your daughter, she's your daughter. Is that how she's wired inside? Is she that kind of a person?

Sarah: No, she's never been this way. That's why it's so weird. Because when I describe this to people they say, "Whoa, she sounds manipulative." No, she's never been this way. In fact, a week ago she said because I was kind of accusing her two brothers. I said, "I bet they'll be coming around once Daddy passes away, yeah, because he owns properties and he's also in debt." Anyway.

Brian Perez: Okay, I suspect where this is coming from now. Anyway, Becky, what are your thoughts?

Becky Brown: Sarah, I mean I say wow to the daughter. Money does a funny thing to people. But first and foremost, I would like for you as the wife and as the one that will outlive him to have an understanding of what your financial picture is for you and your husband. You're talking about him having a trust and these debts and all that. Your focus has to be on you. And whatever the siblings do or the kids do or don't do, you have to go back to what you and your husband have decided that your investments and all of those kind of things. It's between the two of you. It's disheartening that the family has started to gather like vultures, but people do this kind of stuff.

Dr. John Townsend: I would suggest also, Sarah, you just kind of get agreed to disagree in your head. You first start with, "Can't you see what your dad has already decided? This is his decision." But if not, agree to disagree. You probably need a thicker skin with them.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

Brian Perez: Licensed professional clinical counselor Becky Brown and president of New Life Ministries is on the show today. So is Dr. John Townsend. He wrote the Boundaries series of books and so much more. He founded the Townsend Institute. Tell people about the Townsend Institute, John.

Dr. John Townsend: It's the Townsend Institute of Leadership and Counseling at Concordia University Irvine. We have an online graduate program. Counseling, master's or doctorate, organizational leadership, and executive coaching master's. Our students are getting great jobs from all over the world and we're based on my books, certainly the Bible, neuroscience. And if you apply in the next few days and check in, we'll waive your application fee if you'll say the magic words: "I heard about it on New Life LIVE."

Brian Perez: townsendinstitute.com. Check it out. Application fee is waived. Bonnie, how are you in Philadelphia?

Bonnie: Hi, I'm good I think. Thank you for taking my call. I'm a little bit nervous and not sure how to unfold all this. My question would be how I relate to my adult daughter right now during the current situation that she's in.

Two years ago, she told me and my other daughter, her sister, that she wanted a divorce. She'd been married 19 years and has five children. We had no idea that this was coming. It just blindsided us that she wanted a divorce. She was never meant to be with this man but she found the person she's supposed to be with.

Oh my, through the last two years there's been so many things that have happened. She is not with her children. She's far away in another state with another man who also has children but doesn't have, he has sort of a visitation rights with his children, not a custody thing. She only comes home I would say once every two to three months to visit her children. We live five minutes away from her ex-husband and children, so we help all the time. I mean, we help all the time with the kids. When this all started, the kids, their age ranges were from three to 11. The youngest is now, well, she'll be five. My daughter has said that this is God's will. This is God's will. She keeps telling us it's God's will.

Dr. John Townsend: Before we go any further, we want to salute you for stepping in and helping that ex-husband, your son-in-law, with five small children. I'm sure it's taken a lot out of you and well done. Well done.

Bonnie: Thank you. My husband and I couldn't do anything else but of course be with these kids. In fact, another point in all of this, we did not live close to them when they started having children. They moved us close to them so we could be near to help. In fact, we moved two times following them where they lived. We have 16 grandchildren, so this is five of the 16. Ten are in the area. The problem with me right now is what kind of conversations do I have with my daughter? She says this is God's will and she prays the desires of her heart and she won't talk about her plans. She said, "I have no plans."

Becky Brown: Bonnie, here's the thing. She's in charge of everything right now. She blew up the family, everybody's still in shock. I think there's got to be a clarity on where you're coming from. I know that she keeps saying this is God's will. We all know that that's not true because it's not reflected in the word anywhere that that's what He would want. In the meantime, you're helping raise these kids. To stay connected with her, the challenge is just try to be as truthful as you can without trying to correct her fantasy. Just to stay connected because she's made her decision. They've separated, and that's not really yours to correct. I would say, Bonnie, lean into the family that is right in front of you. Don't let her take more time away from the rest of the family. Those are her decisions that she's made and you have to accept that this is what she's decided to do, as much as it doesn't make sense, as much as it causes pain. It's like, okay, I hear you. I don't agree with you. I'm going to help raise your children and we're going to see how this all turns out.

Dr. John Townsend: I couldn't agree more with this, Bonnie. If you haven't been uber clear, be uber clear in one conversation where you're clear about your stance. That you totally disagree with this respectfully. And not only a stance, but a suggestion. Always tell people where you stand on this and give them a suggestion, like go to a pastor who's reputable and see if this is true, or read a book or something. Some suggestion so that you've given them a path.

And then, sometimes people will do this. They'll go, "Gosh, you weren't that clear with me. I didn't know you disagreed." Sometimes that happens. But then you know you've done your due diligence. After that, I love what Becky said about energy. This is about you and your husband's energy and you've got to invest it where it's going to bear fruit. You've got five little ones that it's so much I can't even imagine what you're going through second time around and they need you. Put your energy where it bears fruit, which is to help that man with his kids and grieve your daughter, the dreams you had for your daughter. Let them go. Maybe God will bring them back. Joel 2:25 says He does that. But you grieve it, let go of her emotionally, and that will free the energy up to put it where it really counts.

Brian Perez: For everyone watching and listening, keep Bonnie and her husband and her son-in-law in prayer. Going through a lot. This is the second call we've had today where somebody's twisting scripture to try to say this is what I'm going to do and it's okay because it's in the Bible. And when somebody says, "Well I don't need to see a pastor," we've got some verses that say you do need to. The person that comes up with this whole deal that nobody else ever talks about, they've got a problem.

Well Dr. John Townsend, it's been a pleasure to be on with you on the show today. Thank you so much for being here. Where can people learn more about you again?

Dr. John Townsend: townsendinstitute.com, johntownsend.com. I just want to thank you guys for what you do. I just am always amazed around the country when I speak of the miracles New Life is doing. So thank you for this partnership.

Brian Perez: God bless you, sir. Hope to have you on again soon. You can find out more about us on our website, follow us on social media, like us on YouTube, and all that. You can get all the links at newlife.com.

Guest (Male): Thanks so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember, we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to newlife.com to find out more information. And thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing and we're so glad that you're here.