New Life LIVE

New Life: Welcome to the New Life Live podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's Word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

You are just in time, my friend, for another episode of New Life Live featuring Dr. John Townsend. He was here last Wednesday and we get to hear from him again. Not just from Dr. Townsend, we've also got licensed professional clinical counselor Becky Brown taking time from her New Life Ministries presidential duties to be on the show today. John, everyone probably knows about the Boundaries series, the books that you've written, but what are some things people may not know about you? Maybe even something Becky Brown doesn't know about you.

John Townsend: It might be that my sons and I have a band. We're called The Bandits. We play neighborhood-type things and I have to say it's rock and roll. It's not Hillsong. It's like White Stripes and Zeppelin and that sort of thing. It's how we bond as a family. Then Barbie comes in with her tambourine and she does the background singing thing. We have a good time.

Becky Brown: What's your favorite song, John? What's the favorite song that you guys like to play?

John Townsend: That's hard. I would have to say it depends on which boy is singing because we all sing. I would say either Immigrant Song, which Ricky sings, or Seven Nation Army, which Benny sings. Those are my favorites.

Becky Brown: You know, I have heard John and Steve Arterburn sing Mustang Sally in person. We changed the title for recovery. We changed Mustang Sally to Codependent Sally because she’s always enabling people in her life and she's really tired.

New Life: Wow, I’ve got to find that. That was not the answer I was expecting, but I was kind of hoping we would talk a little bit about the Leadership Institute that you do. Although, it's great to know you have a band and maybe that website will come up soon. Maybe it'll be thebandits.something, who knows?

John Townsend: We're really excited about the Townsend Institute for Leadership and Counseling at Concordia University, Irvine, California. We're an online, fully accredited, all the bells and whistles opportunity for grad school for somebody that either feels a passion that wants to be a licensed Christian counselor or a person that wants to be an organizational leader, run their own business, work in a corporation, or work as a pastor in a ministry.

We're giving people masters, or they're earning them, their masters in leadership or in executive coaching if you want to help people reach their potential. The good news is that our doctorate in counseling now, Forbes Magazine made it the number one program in counseling in the country, not in the Christian world, but in the world world in online programs. Also, that PhD just got what's called CACREP accreditation, which means it's got all the things you need.

We just started working on a PhD in executive coaching and leadership. The idea is we always tell people if you want to get an opportunity, education is opportunity to get to another level of passion, fulfillment, income, all those things. Check us out because we are putting people in great jobs, in great futures, and in great fulfillment.

New Life: Is it ever too late to sign up for this?

John Townsend: Semester by semester, if you call now and tell us you want to enter the next semester, which is coming up soon, we'll waive your application fee if you say you heard on New Life Live because we want you to get in here and we're partners with New Life Radio.

New Life: Townsendinstitute.com. Maybe when John was on the show last week, he talked about how when you were a kid, maybe you were the one who was the compassionate one, or maybe you were the leader. You were always the captain in the kickball team and people looked up to you. This could be your thing that you've got to find out about. We're the garden that grows up your passion. Townsendinstitute.com. The garden that grows up your passion, I love that.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Let's go right to the phones, beginning with Olivia in Miami, who is listening on the New Life app. Thanks, Olivia, for downloading the app and for calling in today, and also for being one of our monthly 99 for the 1 partners. Are you there, Olivia?

Olivia: I'm here.

New Life: Hi, welcome. How can we help you today? Thanks for calling in.

Olivia: I'm just asking for some suggestions. I have set some boundaries, but I do work with someone that is bipolar and I work very closely with that person. That person has an allegiance and a camaraderie with my boss. It's a very unhealthy environment with a lot of lying and deceit. We have different ideas of leadership.

I work with them quite a bit and it's been difficult. I've set some boundaries and I pray for them several times a day, but it's getting to a point where I'm anxious and I feel unsafe. I know sometimes that's the Holy Spirit saying, "Hey, beware." How can I continue to flourish in an environment where I'm starting to feel anxious or doubting? How can I flourish in that kind of environment?

New Life: Does the boss always take the other person's side?

Olivia: Yes, there's definitely an allegiance there.

Becky Brown: I have so many questions, Olivia. My first thing is, what have you tried already?

Olivia: What I do is I try to stay in my own lane and I pray for them several times a day. That has made a big difference so that I'm not building up the resentment. Then I don't want to get into a point where I'm constantly emailing because then it's creating a lot more work since that's not going to be reciprocated.

I just try to stay in my own lane. I try to work as separately as I can, but we are co-partners and so we have the same responsibility. I try to do, "How about I do it this week, you do it next week?" I try to separate. We work in a sales organization, so I try to keep it as separate as possible.

Becky Brown: But how hard is that, Olivia?

Olivia: It's very difficult. I also anticipate when that person's mouth is moving, they're lying. That helps me because what happens is I do have a lot of compassion, but then sometimes I catch myself getting sucked into a lie and it creating more work for me when it's not reciprocated.

Becky Brown: Right, so you are creating chaos where you want calm. It reminds me when we were all growing up in high school and we had to do these group projects and we would all groan because we didn't want to do group projects. The reality is life is a group project. You're always going to have people who are either going to be like this that aren't pulling their weight or they're making it very chaotic.

The challenge is you have to have clarity on this. I don't know that you staying in your own lane is serving you well at this point. I'm thinking that there's probably a hierarchy of when you have a challenge like this in a workplace. Who's the next person that you can talk with, not to vilify the other person, but just to say this isn't really working for me? It's an opportunity for you to grow, though, Olivia. You are aware that there are things that you are compensating for, but it's not helping you ultimately.

Olivia: I have gone to the boss. I really sat back and some things have been brought to the boss, but I think he's experiencing the same thing sometimes from this person. I think everybody wants to patronize this person.

John Townsend: Olivia, give me a sense, on an organizational chart, of who reports to who. This is very important. Romans 13 tells us the authorities were given by God, so the org chart is a symbol of that authority. Do you report to this woman and does she report to him, or do you report directly to him? Tell me who reports to who.

Olivia: We are both equal. I probably have a higher ranking in the organization, but I think he treats her with a higher ranking. We both report to him, but he has his own issues.

John Townsend: That's common. Here's the suggestion, and I'm kind of going where Becky was going. I would probably start with going to her first. That’s what the Bible says; if somebody sins against you, go to them. Just say, "We've got some things that aren't really working right now." If she's a total narcissist or got some kind of severe conscience issue, then she'll just keep lying. But at least you've done your due diligence to say, "I didn't go around her. I went to her first," and have the hard conversation. If that doesn't work, because sometimes it doesn't with people who aren't too severe...

Olivia: I've done it. I've done that. It kind of blew up and it didn't work. I get retribution, then she'll ignore me, she'll lie to me.

John Townsend: Okay, so she has a tantrum. Then you went to the boss. This is called in the corporate world "managing upwards." Managing upwards means when you don't have leverage of authority, you've got to do some things to get things you need without disrupting the whole structure. What I tell people who are in this bind is to go to him or her, whoever your boss is, and say, "I like working here. I like you. I like our culture. I like our values."

"But I really can't take the burdens off of you that I'm intended to take off." He has burdens. He has all kinds of financial pressure, customer pressure, money pressure, and lawyer pressure. He's got pressure on him. You appeal to that and say, "I want to take stuff off of you. That's why I'm here. That's why I'm reporting to you. But here's where I'm inhibited. I know you're really close to Sally and I get that. But I need more help from you in taking those burdens off of you by some role clarity and me being able to not have obstacles in my job. I'll do it your way." Now you have given him the one thing he needs, which is, "Okay, Olivia wants to make my job easier. I think I'll pay more attention to her." That's where we would go.

Olivia: Well, I've gone to him as well. I said that whatever I needed to do for the team and how could I help him is what I said. And nothing changed.

John Townsend: Do you have an HR department?

Olivia: We do.

John Townsend: Well, Becky mentioned going by the different due diligences, and that would have been my third one. If it breaks up with her and breaks up with him, you have HR, and that's another part of the authority structure. That's kind of what they're there for, to help you to do the job you need to get done with justice.

Becky Brown: That's almost the part we don't want to do. We hope so, but this is kind of extreme, and so I would counsel that. Olivia, this is an opportunity. This may not be where you're supposed to be. It reminds me of Balaam's donkey. He's beating him because he's not going in the direction and then discovers this is not where you were supposed to be. Olivia, you've done everything. The challenge that we have is when we've done everything is to go, "Maybe this isn't where I'm supposed to be." That's a big leap and a big risk, but I hope that you have a team around you, not workmates, but people around you who know you and have heard the struggles that you've been through and can give you some insight on this.

New Life: Olivia, thanks for calling into New Life Live. Now we're going to talk to Enoch in Asheville, North Carolina, listening on SiriusXM channel 131. Enoch, welcome.

Enoch: Thank you so much for taking this call and maybe you can help me figure things out. Let me ask you this. What happens if you find out... I was listening to a Focus on the Family program last July and they had a Mrs. Holmes on and she works on neurodiverse people. She was a counselor for like 20 years and she was having problems with her husband. She didn't realize, and she was the counselor, she didn't realize she was even suicidal according to when I listened to this program on Focus.

Finally finding out then that her husband was autistic. They found out because both her daughters had Asperger's with him, and that's how they found out he was autistic. He said a few things that in all my life, I've been as a kid, I've never fit in. I mean it, I have never fit in anywhere. I learned about Jesus when I was like 11 or 12 listening to Billy Graham on the radio. I was going to CCD school, Catholic school, and of course Billy took it to the extra thing. It's not about these things that some in the Catholic Church do and everything. It's your relationship one on one with Jesus Christ and his redemption.

So I go ahead and I just don't ever fit in. I'm in the classroom, I do what the teacher says, and then she calls out, "Why can't you be like Enoch? Why can't you behave like him?" Of course that makes it even worse because the students gang up on you like that.

Becky Brown: Well, I'm not clear what the question is.

John Townsend: Let's get the question clear. Can you say in a succinct way what the question would be?

Enoch: The question would be, okay, I go ahead and I'm retired for four and a half years now and I do all the stuff around the house for my wife and I love doing it, cleaning and everything. But I love spending time alone. I'm one of the most friendly people you'll ever meet and I help many people where I worked for 37 years. But work brought me to people. And now that I'm more like... I don't need to be around people in order to be happy. I go to the grocery store, talk to the checkout people...

New Life: So the question though is, what's the question, Enoch?

Enoch: The question is, is this a normal thing to be looking at your relationship with Jesus Christ and enduring everything through him because that's where my muscle memory is?

Becky Brown: Well, I think you've got a lot going on. I think a lot of times in retirement, although I don't know about that yet, I think that the challenge is you have this new chapter and there's some space for memories to come up and feelings to come up. But I would say, Enoch, this is an invitation for you to recreate those connections that you had at work and to pay attention to some of the unresolved pain that you may have been carrying around. Not to create another problem, but just to really get some understanding. You finally have some space in your day-to-day life to really explore the deeper things that God is showing you. It's really interesting because we work the majority of our lives, and then we get to the end and we're starting to take assessment of, "Man, I didn't realize how much that affected me. What do I do with that now?" I do think that you're missing community more than you realize it.

John Townsend: Enoch, just to get very quickly to make sure I've got clarity here, have you been diagnosed with spectrum? Formally diagnosed by a licensed person?

Enoch: No, I have not, but my wife now sees everything I've been saying to her and she's a teacher and she says, "I can see that you have nine out of the ten things an autistic person has" because she has autistic kids.

John Townsend: Okay, got you. That helps. Thank you. First off, I would go get a diagnosis. Go see somebody who has a special ed who's well respected, find somebody in your church that knows somebody that knows somebody. It's nice to have the information. If you are spectrum, they have so many helps and resources and tools to help somebody with spectrum, which has to do with sometimes the difficulty in making a connection which you're reporting.

But even so, people on spectrum still need people. When you say, "Well, I've got Jesus," the Bible says we've got Jesus and we call that the vertical connection, but the Bible also says we need a horizontal connection. Are you a Bible reading man, sir?

Enoch: Oh yeah, I read the Bible every day.

John Townsend: Okay, write this down: 1 Peter 4:10. 1 Peter, when you get off the program, 1 Peter chapter 4 verse 10. It says that we humans are the stewards of God's grace. Becky was right. The Bible says you need people and getting the diagnosis to find out what the limits of that could be is a good thing.

New Life: Enoch, thank you so much for calling into New Life Live today from Asheville, North Carolina, and thanks for listening to us on SiriusXM channel 131, which is just another way that you can listen to New Life Live. We're on the radio, we're on podcast, we're on Facebook and YouTube and SiriusXM, and of course DirecTV channel 378.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

If you're feeling stuck in addiction, grief, anxiety, or broken relationships, you are not alone. Connecting with a Life Recovery Group allows you to discover practical tools and biblical truths from the 12 steps of Life Recovery designed to help you heal, grow, and thrive. As we say often, recovery isn't just about what you're giving up, it's about who you're becoming and knowing that your past does not have to define you. Whether you're new to recovery or looking to go deeper, we have resources to guide you, such as Bibles, workbooks, devotionals, and real stories of transformation. You can visit newlife.com for more information on anything that I just said.

Let's go back to the phones now with Laura who is in Boston, Massachusetts, listening on SiriusXM channel 131. Hi there, Laura, thanks for calling into today.

Laura: Hi, thanks so much for including me. I know you're limited on time, so I'll get right into it. Appreciate y'all. I can't really start with a question, but I'll try to keep this very brief. I'm a 65-year-old divorce attorney, very active practice in two states, two oldest siblings who are wonderful and managing but ill, and two daughters and four granddaughters. My question really has to do with this weariness and this very emotional state I've been in.

I was trying to figure out what the cause is. I'm a strong Christian, I pray, I journal. I'm thinking I may be that person... who was it in the Old Testament who ran from the woman and then God just put him by a river and he just slept and ate for a few days? Maybe I just need a rest. My question is really how to refresh myself. One of the problems is my oldest siblings, my work is very demanding, though it's going great. My siblings are fine, but it's not easy to watch. We are a very close family. My daughters are very close in age and I'm very close to them and my four grandkids.

One of my daughters has been going through an extremely contentious divorce since last July, and the effect on her and the grandkids has just been terrible. My granddaughter has suffered from anxiety since she was little and they're all in therapy by the way now and it's been helping amazingly. But she also has some ADHD she's been told. Then my little grandson started to fight and he wrote a suicide note just that he didn't want to live.

New Life: How old is he, you said?

Laura: He's 11 and my granddaughter's 13.

Becky Brown: Well, Laura, you've got a lot going on, so what you're describing makes sense to me. But my first question would be, how long have you been feeling this way?

Laura: I would say probably since right around Christmas.

Becky Brown: Okay, so this is a new feeling regarding just the heaviness that you're feeling right now. You've described a lot of reasons for that feeling, but my first thing would be you need to be assessed. It could be you are entering into a season of depression. It could be a hormonal response. It could be that you do need to take some time off. I know sometimes in work we get energy from things being busy and it can mask the level of energy that you actually can put out.

That's why we talk about Sabbath rest, we talk about just those rhythms, and you're asking really good questions. But Laura, the challenge you have is what will I do as a result of what I'm being made aware of? Because you have a choice, you can block off your calendar and get a break in to just rest and get forward again. But the reason why I ask about when this started is because that's a very significant thing to pay attention to and you don't want this to be six months later and you're still feeling this way without an assessment.

John Townsend: Laura, let me give you kind of a path about all this because you're just like, "Why would I have this?" I would start with where Becky started. I would go to your primary and say, "Do an assessment. I've got no energy." And then we may find out there's something endocrine or burnout, who knows? If that clears out and you shouldn't have any metabolic kind of issue, then I would go see a good Christian therapist and say, "I just want one or two sessions with you. I've got to find out if anything's going on."

Now, what Becky and I were hearing was enormous things going on that are not you. It's not like you hate your job, you like it, you're good at it, you get energy, you're relatively young and those sorts of things. But the common thread that we're hearing in all the stresses is others: family members, sisters, and grandkids and this sort of thing. That's what's called a boundaries or separation issue. When we can't separate our life from the pain of others, we get depressed. Proverbs 4 says to guard our hearts for from it flow the wellsprings of life. A good psychologist would say, "We want to help you to love people without getting enmeshed in their issues so you can love them and still be a healthy Laura." That could be the answer.

New Life: Laura, thank you so much for calling in today to New Life Live. Guard your heart, guard your Sabbath, too, because it's so important to get that rest and to just... you sound like a very busy lady, a very successful lady, but with all these things going on, you just want to keep on going, but you've got to set aside that time for Sabbath rest. Thanks for calling in today to New Life Live. We will be right back with more of your phone calls.

Hello, it's Becky Brown. I am so excited to launch our 99 for the 1 partner initiative. Every day, we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression, all kinds of ways, and it reminds us of the story in Luke 15 where the shepherd leaves the 99 to go rescue the one. We've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99 for the 1 is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE, 1-800-639-5433 or newlife.com/99for1.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

If you're feeling stuck in addiction, grief, anxiety, or broken relationships, you are not alone. Connecting with a Life Recovery Group allows you to discover practical tools and biblical truths from the 12 steps of Life Recovery designed to help you heal, grow, and thrive. As we say often, recovery isn't just about what you're giving up, it's about who you're becoming and knowing that your past does not have to define you. Whether you're new to recovery or looking to go deeper, we have resources to guide you, such as Bibles, workbooks, devotionals, and real stories of transformation. You can visit newlife.com for more information on anything that I just said. Let's go back to the phones now with Michelle in Maryland, listening on WAVA. You are on with Dr. John Townsend and Becky Brown. Hello Michelle, what's your question for us today?

Michelle: Hi, I just want to give glory, honor, and praise to the one true God for just putting breath in my body today. I was telling the lady on the phone this... I've never done this before, so you might have to kind of help me narrow it.

New Life: What's your main question for us, Michelle?

Michelle: You won't understand the question if I don't give you the background. I've been without a church for quite some time because I've been lied to. Because I've been lied to my whole life, I've spent most of my life in institutions, in foster homes, in mental institutions, jail, all that. Been with the Lord for 30 years. I finally realized the falsehood, that I was in the wrong place, that I was being lied to. So I went without a church for a while and I just stayed just me and the Bible and just read it literally as it is.

I found a person that I shadowed on YouTube and then I went and I didn't want to join the church, but I wanted to stay there. I've been there about eight to ten months now. I recognized two things. One, there was no care for the widows and the orphans. There was no mention of caring for them, no ministry for them. Another thing I noticed was there was no evangelism locally in the community that we actually resided in, where our church is actually positioned at.

I have gradually gotten through prayer and trust and shadowing this man, feeling like he's the closest thing I'm going to find around here to just preach straight Bible—not religion, not his doctrine, not his opinion.

New Life: So what's going on now? What led to your phone call here to New Life Live?

Michelle: Sunday, he announces that after a year... now he and I have had many conversations about these different ministries, and I've accepted the fact that if I don't become a regular standard member where you go through... I said, "I'm not going to sign myself to any man."

New Life: So is he leaving the church? Is that what you're wondering what to do now?

Michelle: Yes, he is leaving. He announced and I'm hurt.

New Life: Okay, so you're hurt because you finally found someone, a church leader, and now they're moving on. Becky, what are your questions?

Becky: Well, it's hard because Michelle, I hear your intention to find a very good community. You have been very judicious about talking with the pastor, talking with leadership, trying to understand because you've got a history of people not being faithful. But when changes happen in our local church, it is normal to feel the grief, the confusion, and just the disruption in our faith journey. It could be an invitation for you to strengthen your faith while you don't have to be a member, but you can stay within the community and to not get defensive but to seek understanding. God calls people into different ministries all the time, but because of your history, it's triggering a lot of old wounds. I think if that can be addressed, whether it's with a counselor that you talk with or maybe even a Bible study team where you walk through this journey together and then find out how you can serve in this community. The local church is very complex, but it's God's idea and it's shaped so many of our lives and I don't want this to be a reason for you to pull back and stay out of community.

John Townsend: Michelle, with your background, I was just kind of sad listening to it—the institutionalized and foster care and mental health and jail. I mean, you've really struggled and I can't even imagine the relational conflict you've been through. I was thinking about Hebrews chapter 9 when I was listening to you, where it says, "Don't forsake the assembling of ourselves together." Now, you want to assemble because you know it's good for you, even though you got away and read your Bible for a long time and people do have that desert experience. You know that you need to be with people.

But sometimes when we've been betrayed a lot, we have this... I would call it a standard in our head of, "Here we go again." So if somebody that we love—you really like this guy that's leaving—but when that person shows a flaw, then our autonomic brain response says, "I'm going to get hurt again." If they show a little flaw, we have really high standards to protect ourselves. It's kind of protective.

What I want you to be aware of is that while you're looking for that next church—because I think you need to find another church that's let's say not perfect, biblically based but not perfect, none of them are—but to work on your healing on trust. I would tell somebody in your life—a counselor, a wise person, a coach or whatever—"I don't trust because of some very good reasons." Once you learn how to trust and start to feel safe inside, then you can take an imperfect church—not a perfect, but a Bible believing imperfect church—and you can thrive there because that little trigger doesn't happen the next time they show a flaw.

New Life: Thank you so much for calling into today, Michelle, to New Life Live. Let's talk to Lee in San Francisco, listening on newlife.com. Welcome to the program, Lee.

Lee: Thank you.

New Life: Yeah, what's your question for us today?

Lee: I hope it's not a repeat of the little pieces I've heard while I'm on hold. I'm like, "Oh, I can't ask mine. I think it's the same as Laura's, Michelle's." But I just no matter what I do, I cannot shake my depression and I've never been this way. I recently retired and I'm doing everything. I'm eating right, I'm exercising, I'm reading my Bible. I'm in groups. I'm serving. I'm volunteering. I just am so sad, lonely, and depressed. I think it's a combination of a confusing relationship that I've been shown a lot of flattering attention by, but I think I can't figure it out, and retirement, and expectation of others because my relationships, they're all basically one way and I'm just sad, lonely, and depressed. I try to be grateful, I'm trying to do everything.

Becky Brown: How long have you been retired?

Lee: A year and a half, almost two years.

Becky Brown: And when did this feeling start?

Lee: When this confusing relationship started a year ago.

New Life: Is this a romantic relationship, Lee?

Lee: On my end, and the way he acts on his end, but not exactly. Who knows?

New Life: That's why it's confusing and that's where you're calling into New Life Live. Okay, so we've got to take a break and Dr. John Townsend and Becky Brown will give you their response when we come back here on New Life Live.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Lee in San Francisco is who we're speaking with right now. Becky, what else did you want to say to Lee?

Becky Brown: Lee, you said you retired a year and a half ago, but what I heard you say is that you're still doing this, you're still doing that, and you're doing the other thing. I just think that there's got to be a time where you are still, going to your favorite place and just debriefing from the busyness of years of work.

But this confusing relationship... my question about this is, have you had what they used to call the DTR, "define the relationship"? The confusion is usually based because we haven't had the conversation. If you're retirement age, that means you don't have to spend a whole lot of time with somebody that you're interested in, that you would like more from in a romantic sense, where you need to be asking some questions right up front. Not because you're trying to cancel them out, but literally, this is a different stage in our life. Have you had that conversation with him, Lee?

Lee: No, I'm figuring I'm reading the signs and letting them lead. I figure by now I would know if he's going to pursue it more than just flattering words and compliments and some...

John Townsend: What are you afraid of? Why wouldn't you do the DTR? Becky's right. What are you scared of?

Lee: Because men, traditionally, they want to do the pursuing and I would know his intentions based on his actions.

Becky Brown: I have so much to say about that. It's a new day, Lee, okay? The first question I have, Lee, is, do you have girlfriends, trusted women friends or relatives around you right now?

Lee: Not really. That's all the relationships are one way, and I know I've got big expectations. I'm doing all the courses online: How We Love, Safe People, Boundaries.

Becky Brown: Well, those are all great things, but here's the interesting thing: it's all external and what I want for you is I want you to experience it. I'm not talking about this confusing relationship. I do think that you're going to have to take a risk and go, "Hey, I'm just kind of curious. Where do you see this going?"

Even some of the questions that we can ask in the front end of a relationship are just clarifying. He may be just enjoying your company, period, full stop, no future. And it's nothing against you, Lee, it's just where he's at. The other thing I would invite you into, if you're not already doing... this isn't a course, but like a Bible study, women's Bible study, or even a book club. It doesn't even have to be where you're having to perform or learn something. It's just enjoying relationships. You are in a new chapter and so there's new things that are happening. I know it's going to be hard for you to just go, "Hey, let's go have coffee and I want to know where you're headed with this relationship," but I think that's got to be part of the next couple of weeks because you will swirl around: what does he want, what does he think, what do I want, what do I think? I just think that there's got to be some clarity and you're going to need some help around that. You're going to need a team.

John Townsend: Absolutely. Lee, where did you learn to give all the time and not to ever receive? You learned that somewhere. Let's don't make the world a bad guy here. Where did you learn to be the consummate giver and the person who just has conflict about receiving?

Lee: Absolutely. A lifetime of rejection and then a 38-year career of giving.

John Townsend: All right, I'm going to give you a Bible verse. You a Bible person?

Lee: Yes, every day.

John Townsend: Good, we need that. When we get off the program, go to Galatians 6 and it says that we are to cast our burdens on each other. Meaning you have to ask people, "I just need somebody to listen to me sometimes. I just need to vent sometimes because I get lonely." You'll be surprised at people who go, "You are, and I'm glad to be there for you."

But you've also got to give back together. Well, you've got a doctorate in giving back, so I'm not worried about that. But we're meant to cast our burdens on each other. So take advantage of that, because I think you are lonely because you don't ask and you probably have these internal expectations and they're in your head, so you either ask people who don't have anything or you just don't ask at all and wish, like you're waiting on this guy. You're waiting on him to do something and he's probably clueless because you're not asking. Asking is a good thing. That's what God says to do.

New Life: So if Lee's got all this pent up frustration or confusion and she finds someone that she wants to share this with over coffee, whatever, how does she keep it where maybe she doesn't spill everything all out at once? With a friend or with the guy?

John Townsend: Well, it's two different questions, two different answers. Got time for both? With the friend, you say, "Hey, Helen, can we have lunch?" And then we have lunch. Then, "How's your life?" And she talks about travel and church and vacation and working out. And then you say what you're doing.

Then you say, "By the way, you've been a safe person to me in all my life and I really have a hard time being open with somebody because I'm always kind of the giver and I learned that from some bad stuff. Do you mind if I tell you like where I really struggle and hear how you struggle?" That changes everything. Vulnerability, look at Brene Brown. All of a sudden, the person goes, "Oh, this is something real. I feel life here because vulnerability brings life."

That's with the friend. I would suggest you do that before you do this with the guy. You get your tummy full with that and you go, "Oh, it's kind of nice not to be alone because now I'm not giving and these people want to give to me and they listen and they maybe can't change things, but I just I'm not alone anymore." That gives us life and that can cure some depressions.

Then you go to the guy and say, "So, Harold, I really love your flattery and I just it makes me feel good. But I'm a person who's a person of purpose and I would like to know where we are. Is this something that you see there's a future in? Do you want to continue doing this or not? No harm, no foul in dating." DTR, what Becky called DTR, define the relationship, is the way to go. Because you can waste years of your life being afraid to ask it. So don't keep waiting on him to be the guy who has to take the lead. That doesn't mean that you don't have some input in there. DTR. But get the gal on your side—gals, maybe two of them—on your side first so you're not always the giver. Giver and taker, that's how it works.

Becky Brown: You know, it's interesting about defining the relationship. That applies to like another call that we had today that was a workplace situation. We get confused when we're not sure where you begin and end. Isn't that a boundary principle?

John Townsend: It's maybe the boundary principle. It's called definition.

Becky Brown: Exactly. You're always so smart, John.

New Life: And the thing with Lee, too, whatever the answer she gets from this guy, she's got to be okay with it. She can't try to get him to change his mind or anything like that. But Lee, thank you so much for calling in today to New Life Live. I've learned a lot just from being next to Dr. John Townsend today here on New Life Live. This has been a blessing to have you on the show today and last week as well. We've got to put you on the roster, man. We’ve got to have you in here more often.

John Townsend: I just love being here with a bunch of people who want to help people who need something. This team is great. You can't do better than this team here.

New Life: You can find out more about Dr. John Townsend on his website, townsendinstitute.com. You can also read all his books. We've got a bunch of them available in the newlife.com store, so go there, check that out. God bless you guys. Thank you so much for joining us today here on New Life Live. We'll be back again tomorrow. Becky Brown, President of New Life Ministries, thank you for being on the show as well. I've been praising John over here, but yeah, thank you for all you do for us here at New Life. God bless you guys. Thanks for watching, thanks for listening. We'll talk to you next time on New Life Live.

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