New Life LIVE

Guest (Intro VO): Welcome to the New Life Live podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's Word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: Hey, thanks for joining us today on New Life Live. How's your day going so far? If you're feeling anxious or stuck, we want to help you march forth. Your breakthrough can start today with one call to 1-800-229-3000. We've got licensed marriage and family therapist Dr. Jackie Mack Harris joining us soon. She'll be here for two hours, as well as doctor of marriage and family therapy Sherry Denham-Kefer, both here for two hours. Sherry, what you got on your mind to start us off?

Sherry Denham-Kefer: I kind of like how you said march forth. I was thinking of the old English like, "I'm going to march forth," like I'm going to march forward. That was very, very witty. I think that's why we're here. The truth of it is, I was honored by the opportunity to write a chapter in this book. Have you heard about this book?

This book is called *The Healing Church: What the Church Gets Wrong About Pornography and How to Fix It*. It was actually written by Sam Black, who is the director of education at Covenant Eyes. Many of us are familiar with Covenant Eyes. This book is really for pastors, for laypeople, for people that are serving in ministry positions to really understand the impact of pornography.

How it hurts not only the one that's actively using pornography, but it hurts the one who's on the other side, the significant other. It hurts family members, it hurts kids that are in the homes. In there, he was kind enough to ask me if I would be open to writing the chapter on the impact of betrayed partners. In this book, it's Chapter 13, "When You Have the Right to Say Enough is Enough."

I go into detail the impact of pornography on sexually betrayed partners. Why did Sam do this and why was I a participant? It's because I think pornography is so minimized in the church. It's either not talked about because I think there are a lot of pastors themselves who are struggling with pornography. If you're using pornography and you're struggling with it yourself, it's going to be really hard to talk about that with any kind of integrity from the pulpit.

I also see churches where they've got groups, they are wanting to be open and honest about what's happening. They want to support those that are caught up in pornography use and pornography addictions. They also want to support partners and significant others on the other side. I applaud them. I would love to see more and more of that happen.

One of the things that I heard this week is a wife say, "I know that my husband looks at pornography and it's just not a big deal. It's just what guys do." This was my first thought. I say it only takes a spark. I went to one of the main porn sites recently. There are 2,273 pages that have categories of every kind of heinous act you could ever imagine. Not only that, but they have half a million HD videos. It's dark. It's harmful. It's painful. I think the wife just didn't know how bad pornography is and what a deep trap it is for those who find it.

Brian Perez: We can talk about that and more today on New Life Live.

Guest (Break VO): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: We have some special guests on New Life Live in the next few days. Tune in tomorrow and Friday to hear Dr. John Townsend on the show. Then on Monday, blended family expert Ron Deal will be joining us. We'll be taking calls on any topic on Monday as we always do, because as we like to say, no topic is off the table. Give us a chance at 1-800-229-3000.

Even with the topic that Sherry had at the beginning of the show, talking about how a lot of pastors aren't addressing porn in their churches because maybe they might be using, if you want to call in anonymously, you want to change your name or where you live, just call in. We want to help you and it's okay. 1-800-229-3000 is the number to call. Let's go right to the phones. We've got Susan calling in from Maryland. Welcome Susan to New Life Live.

Guest (Susan): Good afternoon. Thank you for taking my call. The issue is this: for some time now, Jesus has been trying to stop me from wearing earrings. He told me that from the time He resurrected, He doesn't know anything apart from being on me. He told me that He was following me around. I mean in my 60s. He told me that He has been following me around from creation. I asked Him if He could stay on the throne and see me. He said no.

I'm telling Him that I'm not throwing away my earrings. I'm going to wear them because He's not ruling now and it's not the thousand-year reign He's doing. He told me that it's a mistake He made. Every minute He's admitting that it's a mistake He made and that He never knew. Can Jesus Christ be supposed to make mistakes? He wants me to live a lie and I know the truth. I told Him that He died for legalism.

He told me that I'm not supposed to tell anybody that He died, the biggest event in human history. History created. Jesus Christ made a mistake. I'm also so tired. This is how He manifests Himself to me, reveals Himself to me, tells me I must throw away my things. How Jesus thinks He can take advantage of any individual.

Dr. Jackie Mack Harris: It sounds like she's saying that she feels that Jesus has been speaking to her and she needs to get rid of certain things, that she shouldn't have these adornments on her. Scripture says that God is not a man that He can lie and Jesus is God. I think our answer to Susan's question is no, He can't. We could probably help Susan connect with a counselor in her area that could help her process some of the battle she's having right now.

Sherry Denham-Kefer: Susan, I appreciate you calling in. Anxiety, fears, our past, and our present can sometimes be very confusing. The way trauma works, I often see it like a knotty hairball in our brain that needs to be teased out. When I hear you, precious Susan, and the fear that you have around legalism and the fear that I hear you have around Jesus, there's so much there.

I just wish I was sitting across from you in my office because I would begin to ask questions about your past and your pain. I would probably even have you get an assessment with somebody who could take a look at your sweet brain right now to make sure that your brain is getting everything it needs. I want to make sure what you're hearing, experiencing, and feeling is accurate in this present time.

I grew up in a family where there was a high amount of anxiety and I had family members that were in panic over things that they heard God say, over things that they heard others say, and over things that they heard their bosses say. All that anxiety and all that panic swirled around me and there were days that I didn't even know what was true.

We would want to have you spend the time with somebody to unravel what's happening right now with you so that you can get the best care emotionally and medically with your brain, body, and sound mind so that you're not living in such a chronic place of fear.

Dr. Jackie Mack Harris: Sometimes we don't realize that a lot of the ruminations and catastrophizing that's happening in our mind is coming out of our historical experiences. I've heard it said that if it's hysterical, it's historical. There might be some things that Susan can uncover that could help alleviate some of the anxiety and give her some peace.

Brian Perez: Susan, thanks for calling in today to New Life Live. Stay on hold because we want to put you in touch with somebody there in your area in Maryland. Let's go to Los Angeles now. We've got Jay, who is listening to us on Sirius XM. Welcome Jay to New Life Live.

Guest (Jay): Good morning. Thank you for having me. I've been a drug and alcohol counselor for over a decade and it's been a great experience. Of course, I'm in recovery and God has given me these chances. But to tell you the truth, I'm still feeling the shame, blame, and ruminating thoughts. I've gone through therapy and treatment and I can help everyone else and it's great.

When I leave and I come home, I have those days where I'm just a wreck and it's just one of those catch-22s. Here I am doing it, and then if I don't do it, then I'm an imposter. It's just really tough. I just can't seem to get the balance because that's what my family always says, "Well, you know it, you've done it, so just do it for yourself."

Dr. Jackie Mack Harris: Easier said than done, Jay. A lot of us come to this work with histories of our own. Just because we are still wrestling with things doesn't make us an imposter. You are still doing the work, you're still serving, and you're still helping people to get to their healthy place. I think sometimes the shame is in that we're not perfect.

A lot of times people believe that when we become therapists, it's because we are somehow elevated. We're not any better than anybody else. We're not superior to anyone else when it comes to dealing with these things. That's why I say that I'm a recovering emotional avoider. I still struggle with not disassociating when I'm in a position or a space I don't want to be in.

There are still things in all of our lives as therapists that we are still going to wrestle with. We'll still have relationship challenges. I'm a couples therapist and I think I'm a pretty good couples therapist, but that doesn't mean I always get it right with my husband. Jay, I just stand in solidarity with you as a healer who is also still on her journey of healing. I think I always will be.

I have different processes that I use for self-care. What I'm hearing from you, Jay, is you might not have routines or rituals or a self-care plan or process that you use regularly that can help you navigate the stuff that you're carrying all day. We take in a lot. Then what do you do with that when you leave work? You're carrying everybody's stories around with you. Is there a place for you to go with that? Are you in your own therapy or going to meetings? Do you have a support team or sponsor that you're meeting with regularly? Are you still working your program while you're helping others to work theirs?

Guest (Jay): Thank you for that. I want to say that I still have a therapist that I contact with. Recovery, of course, I have my home base, so I jump in as needed. My biggest routine is fitness. That's the only thing I feel like I could control and that makes me feel great. I think these are all great things to do, but the dialogue in my head continues to take over when the stressors arise.

It's that old script that just really can't get erased. I end up sabotaging more and more of my relationship and persecuting myself. It's like, "Well, you just need someone else who's not broken." My words go so strong. I always feel like the Avengers movie, like, "Well, I got a lot of blood in my ledger and I need to make it up."

Sherry Denham-Kefer: It's so interesting as I hear you, Jay. One thing I know about you: if you were really a fraud, you wouldn't have called us right now to tell us authentically how much you're struggling. Frauds don't do that. The opposite of "I am a fraud" is "I am real and I am honest and I am authentically human." That is exactly how you presented yourself right now.

The negative cognition is "I'm a fraud." A lot of times in addiction, I think this piece gets missed. Many of us that struggle with addictive processes don't realize that we have a brain in there that is a part of the addiction process. Many people who are in that addictive crowd actually are somewhere on this spectrum of OCD. I'm not saying obsessive-compulsive personality disorder.

I'm saying somewhere on the spectrum of they've got this brain part that is negative. It's a ruminating brain. It's a brain that's trying to save you from any kind of conflict. It's a brain that is wired in these negative beliefs, these shame-inducing lies. One of the ones I heard from you is that "I'm a fraud." That's not Jay, that's Jay's brain talking to me right now.

That's that brain part. It's a manager part that's trying to manage your life, but the brain part is also trying to keep you as safe as possible. If you believe you're a fraud, then you're not going to be as involved in the recovery world. But if you believe the opposite of "I'm a fraud," which is "I am an authentic, honest, real human and I can make mistakes," people are going to be drawn to you like a magnet in the recovery world.

I might suggest you get some additional therapy from somebody that does EMDR. What does that stand for? Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing. What that does is it moves that negative shame belief that's stuck, "I'm a fraud," and it takes it from your thinking brain and it takes it right into your heart so your heart can wrestle with it.

You're not just arm wrestling with your brain, but you're able to cathartically wrestle with it and move it from that lie into truth. Once your heart believes that you're really a human, honest, real, authentic, and you make mistakes, it's going to be like a junkyard dog. Once they get into truth, they hold on to it and I want that for you.

Brian Perez: Jay, thanks for calling us today on New Life Live. We know this was probably tough for you to call in because you had to admit something that you didn't want to admit, but we're glad you called in and we hope that your call will help others who also feel like they need to call in but are afraid to. We'll be right back.

Guest (Break VO): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: This is New Life Live. I'm Brian Perez here with Drs. Jackie Mack Harris and Sherry Denham-Kefer. We were speaking with Jay, who called in. He's a drug and alcohol counselor, just wondering, "Here I am counseling all these people, but then there are times I get home and everything I was telling others to do, I can't practice myself." Jackie, what did you want to share with Jay?

Dr. Jackie Mack Harris: Jay, I was wondering, you mentioned fitness being one of your coping mechanisms. I used to work with a trainer and he decided to open up a drug treatment facility. One of the responses I physically had to the team was that several of the people he was going into this with had just traded addictions. Their new addiction was fitness.

That's healthy, so how could it be bad? We haven't really changed anything in our brain when we go from the addiction of drugs or alcohol to the addiction of fitness or managing our food, because like you said, it's something I can control. That's what triggered me, that Jay, you're still trying to control external things to deal with what's happening internally.

I love the idea of getting into some EMDR. I also would like to recommend that you find the book *Understanding Your Attachment Style* by Mark Cameron. I think if you were to walk through that book and the workbook with a counselor and be doing EMDR, you might get a breakthrough that you never even imagined. Don't give up on the work you're doing. Acknowledge that you are still in process and continue doing the work. Hopefully that will relieve some of the stress so that you can continue serving other people.

Brian Perez: Jay, get that book. It's called *Understanding Your Attachment Style* by Mark Cameron. We've also got a webinar coming up in about two weeks that Mark will be hosting. You know what, Jay, just for calling in, we're going to send you a registration for the webinar. Stay on hold and we'll get that out to you. Let's talk to Davina, who is in Los Angeles. Welcome Davina. How can we help you?

Guest (Davina): The reason I am calling today is because I'm trying to figure out if I went about things the right way, if I did the right thing by protecting my mother from a will that may have been ill-conceived. My father died a couple of months ago and a will surfaced. When I took a look at this will, when he signed it, he was very, very sick to the point to where he couldn't even hold a glass of water by himself.

He was in a lot of pain and he was on very, very strong painkillers. Now, in this will, it named me 50% and his sister 50%. It said that he wasn't married and I was like, whoa, that's really strange. My dad and mom are very much married. They've been married since the '70s. When we went to the mortuary, I had to let the mortuary know as well, because they were making the death certificate, that yes, he was married and I produced a marriage certificate.

Anyway, my mom got in contact with the executor and the executor told her, well, she was just going to have to go down to the probate court because that's her problem. I thought, what a way to treat my mother after they've been married for over 50 years. I went ahead and I withdrew the money because I actually had a pay on death. My dad years ago, when he was in his right mind and sober, made me the beneficiary of that account.

I withdrew the money and I forwarded all of it over to my mom. They were treating her very badly and I found out that the POD authorization overrides any wills that were done. It was all legal, but morally, I'm trying to figure out if something could have been done differently, because now everybody's mad at me. They're calling me and saying that I was sneaky. They were the ones that were sneaky because they were trying to leave my mom out of the will.

Brian Perez: Do you have any reason to think that maybe your dad's sister forced him to sign this money to her?

Guest (Davina): That's what I'm suspicious of because he took him out of the hospital and he was getting better.

Brian Perez: We've got to take a break, Davina. We'll come back to you in just a little bit here on New Life Live. If you've just joined us, thank you so much for listening and for watching. We would love to speak with you.

Guest (Becky Brown): Hello, it's Becky Brown and I am so excited to launch our 99 for the One partner initiative. Every day we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression, and it reminds us of the story in Luke 15 where the shepherd leaves the 99 to go rescue the one.

We've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99 for the One is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE, 1-800-639-5533 or newlife.com/99for1.

Guest (Break VO): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: All right, back to Davina, who is calling us from Los Angeles. Thank you for holding through the break. What's your main question that you want Sherry and Jackie to answer for you today?

Guest (Davina): I want to know, in at least a moral sense, did I do the right thing by protecting my mother? I've always had to protect my mother.

Brian Perez: Protect your mother from who?

Guest (Davina): From my father.

Dr. Jackie Mack Harris: Did they have a difficult marriage?

Guest (Davina): Yes, it was difficult.

Dr. Jackie Mack Harris: Was he an addict?

Guest (Davina): No, he wasn't an addict, but there were times in their marriage where he had some problems.

Sherry Denham-Kefer: One of the things as far as a moral injury, yes. We were talking on the break, I wish you could have heard us because we were all incensed by what happened. If you were calling when you knew your aunt had taken your dad out of the hospital and if you had wondered if there wasn't some dirty pool going on financially, I would have to file with adult protective services if your dad was alive.

That is financial abuse. Your dad was not functioning with all his faculties. I would even call it evil when somebody takes somebody and out of greed, they move them in a position when they're not working from a full mind into financially taking money. I've had to do this with clients and with friends when people take advantage of elderly and financially rob from them.

Adult protective services exists for this reason. You were kind of acting like a social worker with the aftermath of the money that was stolen from your mom that she was entitled to. Had you been sitting there and able to draw that up with your dad, I guarantee you the money would have been split in a way that made sense for the marriage.

Dr. Jackie Mack Harris: After 50 years, even in a difficult marriage, it doesn't make sense to completely leave her out of the will. Morally, ethically, legally, you did what was in your power to do to protect your mom and hopefully honor your father as well. As far as auntie and uncle are concerned, I'd much rather be a good daughter than a great niece and betray my mom for my aunt and uncle who seem to be doing something shady.

I was just imagining that they would split 50% and figure you and your mom would split 50%. If Dad hadn't had those conversations, if there hadn't been discussions about this was his plan to give to his sister, then I think you did the right thing. Other people might not like it and they may try to shame you and make you feel bad for it, but the decision's done and made and there's nothing they can do about it. Move on with life, stay in prayer, and continue to take care of yourself and your mom.

Sherry Denham-Kefer: When people pass, you learn a lot about people. You learn a lot about family members when there's money on the line. You might have these family members that you thought were as good as gold and all of a sudden you just see their true colors in moments like this. They're just not the kind of safe family members you want to build your life around. Right now you've been able to see who she is and who your aunt is and she's just not a safe person.

Brian Perez: Better to be a good daughter than a bad niece. Is that your new bumper sticker?

Dr. Jackie Mack Harris: Better to be a bad niece and a good daughter than to be a bad daughter and a good niece and in harming your mom. Scripture says honor your mother and father, doesn't really say anything about auntie and uncle. Davina, thanks for calling in today.

Brian Perez: New Life has helped thousands of guys reclaim their sexual integrity in the past 20 years through the Every Man's Battle workshop. The path to freedom begins when we bring our struggles into the light and trust God to heal what we can't fix alone. At Every Man's Battle, you'll join other men who understand your fight, breaking the isolation that fuels destructive patterns.

You'll discover the resources you need to start fighting temptation and find a way out of the addictive cycle. The next weekend workshop is next month. It starts April 24th in Washington, DC and you can get all the details at newlife.com. Let's go to Nancy in Philadelphia. Hi there, Nancy. Thanks for calling today.

Guest (Nancy): My husband and I last year signed up to become foster parents and then as of January 1st, we had a 15-year-old girl come live with us. She obviously had some issues in her past and we were hoping providing her a good stable home would be really good since she hadn't really had that in the past. Last Wednesday was a blowup and after that incident, everything just kind of fell apart from there.

She requested to leave our care. Then over the weekend, she was AWOL and because of allegations she made against us, we were ready to refuse her back into the home, but the police were like, we didn't have anywhere else for her to go, so we accepted her back into our care. Since then, we're basically doing minimal contact. Things are just rough and I think we're all just waiting till she's gone, which sounds terrible.

For me, my heart is really broken, especially as a Christian that wanted to show her a different side of people and especially point her towards Christ. Now I'm just stuck. Where do we go? She is transitioning out of the home and I really do want the best for her. I keep thinking, "If she comes to me and apologizes or wants to make up, should I try to make it work?"

Sherry Denham-Kefer: So I used to be a social worker for foster care. Do you guys have a foster care social worker that's working with you?

Guest (Nancy): So we have an agency and then our placement is from Philly, so she has a caseworker and I have a caseworker.

Sherry Denham-Kefer: Has somebody been out to help you yet?

Guest (Nancy): No, nobody has.

Sherry Denham-Kefer: You must feel so alone. Nancy, I don't know who you're working with, which foster care agency, but my first recommendation would be that you seriously consider changing. Foster kids are kids with special needs. Emotionally, they have special needs. They're coming in with so much pain and I don't know what happened with the blowup. I don't know who started it or what went sideways.

In that moment, that's really about attachment. It's really about heartache. It's really about past hurts. A 15-year-old has had multiple placements. The last thing you want to leave her with is this feeling of something is wrong with her. That's messy because we have to fall on our own swords and we have to take ownership of what happened. We have to be willing to mend fences even though we may have had a part in it. We'll be back.

Guest (Break VO): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: Nancy in Philadelphia, you still with us?

Guest (Nancy): Yeah.

Dr. Jackie Mack Harris: Nancy, I used to be a foster parent. My husband and I, we had a family of four: twin seven-year-old girls and an 11-year-old boy and a five-year-old girl. It was a rough year. One of the great things about our training was that they prepared us for the difficult child because we didn't want infants. I knew we would get older kids. Taking in a 15-year-old, they are coming to you having already been abandoned multiple times.

I wonder how hard this was for you and how much that hardness is playing into this. You mentioned that your hope was that you'd be able to show her a different world and I think that there was this fantasy that if she could be with good, Christian, loving people, that would change something for her, but that's not taking into consideration anything about her. That focus was on you.

Foster kids need a safe place regardless. I went into this knowing this is going to be hard. They're troubled and traumatized. They're not going to like you. They don't want you. They want to be with their real parents and you're not their real parent. When you don't have a rock-solid home and foundation and roots planted somewhere, Jesus is not necessarily the first thing on your list of things to do.

You've got to find a place to sleep and some food. When we as believers try to bring in our faith above just survival, we move too fast to religion. Whatever happened, I can imagine because our 11-year-old boy was quite a challenge. There are times as a parent you're frustrated with your children and you might raise your voice. I don't know what happened with Dad, but I think if you guys want to continue with fostering, it would be important to be with a foster agency that will give you that additional support.

There should be someone to help you guys navigate when she is feeling hurt. Is she in therapy or a group? Does she have access to foster care resources so that she could be in community with other foster children, or is she isolated and alone with people who she may feel don't actually really want her? That then causes people to act out because she doesn't feel safe and wanted. If she's not the right fit for you guys, it may be best that she's placed in a different space.

Guest (Nancy): She requested to leave initially.

Sherry Denham-Kefer: There's another program called CASA and you might try maybe being a CASA person, which you get to help out without being a full-time caretaker. You can get your feels around kids that have such big wounds around attachment and bonding.

Dr. Jackie Mack Harris: The CASA workers work with the foster families. You can have a foster child and then have a CASA worker that's kind of like a big sister or big brother who'll spend hours with them so they have another person who they are trying to form healthy attachments with. CASA was a big part of the success of my nieces who were foster kids.

Brian Perez: What do you think, Nancy?

Guest (Nancy): That is helpful. Thank you.

Brian Perez: Did we provide you with what you needed?

Guest (Nancy): A little bit.

Brian Perez: Well, we can't do a lot because we're just a radio show, but we can try to steer you in the right direction. Is there one more thing you'd like to know?

Guest (Nancy): I think there's just a lot going on.

Sherry Denham-Kefer: Nancy, how was it to hear what I said? How did that land for you?

Guest (Nancy): That was a little upsetting but also true because I naively was thinking certain things. At the same time, I still did want to help. We were working to try to get her back into therapy, but the process was just taking a very long time. I just try to figure out what can we do better in the future, because obviously we still do want to try to work things out with her, but right now she doesn't want to speak with us.

Dr. Jackie Mack Harris: I would find whoever is the youth foundation in your city. I would connect with them and start volunteering with the teenage population. Find out if there's a day you can go over if they have a resource center. The youth can come in for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. They can get help with finding jobs, help with finding a place to stay, or help with medical issues.

You could get to encounter some of these youth and some of the staff that works with them and learn a little bit more about how they live and what they've experienced. I think a lot of times people who have never been abandoned or neglected by their families don't understand the chaos that they've lived in and the worldview that they have. We think our worldview will make their life better, but we're forgetting that this is a whole person who has already had a life.

Sherry Denham-Kefer: I would probably stay on the line and let us get you a therapist for you and your husband to talk to. It would be a perfect time for you guys to unpack what are your wishes, hopes, dreams, and fantasies around doing this. This might be an amazing opportunity for you and your husband to learn more about yourselves before you go back and take your next kiddo.

Dr. Jackie Mack Harris: I know a few people who have come to therapy because they're becoming foster parents or because they're going into adoption. We've been able to work through it together and make the transition easier.

Brian Perez: Nancy, do not grow weary in well-doing. You want to do something good to make this world a better place and we applaud you for that because we definitely need more foster parents for children. God bless you.

Guest (Outro VO): Thanks so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember, we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to newlife.com to find more information. Thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing and we're so glad that you're here.