New Life LIVE

Brian Perez: So glad to have you watching and listening to New Life LIVE. I'm Brian Perez, and whether you're a longtime listener or you just found us by scanning the dial or the algorithm sent us your way, welcome. We're going to be in the studio for two hours today, and by "we," I mean clinical psychologist Dr. Jill Hubbard, who will be joining us shortly, and licensed marriage and family therapist Chris Williams. 1-800-229-3000 is our number. Chris, fess up. What's going on?

Chris Williams: All right, time with Chris the confessor. The confession this week is more in line with Saint Augustine's confession where it's not always just telling on yourself—though I've got plenty to tell on, for sure—but it's just a statement of reality at times, where you're just pointing out what's obvious in plain sight. That is the Christian life, and life if we're going to live it well, the good life in God, doesn't end. Meaning that the work doesn't end.

One of the things that I've really been working on lately is that I've found that I just need a deepening and a strengthening in my faith and mostly in my identity in Christ. What I see in my work, especially working more with people who have a lot of financial resources or influence or notoriety, is that the systems of this world have a way of competing for identity and knocking us off course and luring us into other things rather than an identity rooted in Christ. I've been reminded of that lately.

One of the things that has come to the forefront came up in my writing the other day as I was journaling, and that is roots produce fruits. It's a very simple concept, but I tend to like the achieving thing. If people are familiar with the Enneagram, I supposedly am a three, so I like to achieve and get things done and move things forward. With that said, I can get caught up in the outcome rather than the process, and including my identity or my well-being on how successful or achieving I can be rather than on deep roots in my relationship and identity with Christ.

In that shift, looking at a season of my life where I'm like, "Let's get the roots a little bit deeper so you can get stronger," I thought of this prayer that Paul has for the Ephesians. I think it is for all of us. It's a longer prayer and I won't get into all of it, but this line here: "I pray out of his glorious riches that he may strengthen you with power through his spirit in your inner being." Inner being—that's important.

"So that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power together with all the Lord's holy people to grasp how wide, long, high, and deep is the love of Christ and to know that this love surpasses knowledge that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God." Man, I dream of being filled to the measure of all the fullness of God, but this requires for me returning back to deepening my roots in God's truth, in my relationship with him, in prayer, in study, in journaling, and just really fixing my eyes on Jesus and trusting him as the author, editor, and perfecter of my faith.

I don't want to get too preachy in all of this, but when we are apart from Christ, our internal world doesn't work as well. I know that just to be a fact, and that is my confession today. I don't work well apart from the love of God.

Brian Perez: Amen. So do you feel better now? Do you feel a blessing now that you're done confessing?

Chris Williams: I do. It's off my shoulders. I feel lighter.

Brian Perez: That's great. By the way, we have a tip sheet available on blessing and confessing, and we'll put that in the show notes as soon as I get the name of it: "Eight Blessings That Come From Confessing." We'll be back.

If you're listening to New Life LIVE or watching on a podcast platform, we'd love for you to take a quick moment to help us by writing a quick review or by rating us. Five stars are our favorite, of course. It's a simple way that really helps us out. If you'd like to call in and ask us a question, we're going to be in the studio for two hours today at 1-800-229-3000 with Chris Williams and Dr. Jill Hubbard. Let's go to the phones. Here is Jeremy, who is calling in from Bloomington, Indiana, listening on NewLife.com. Jeremy, thanks so much for calling in today.

Jeremy: Hello, how we all doing today?

Brian Perez: Doing well. What's up with the phone? Hold on. We've got a really bad connection. I don't know what it is, so we'll try to get through.

Jeremy: Just one second. I think it's my phone.

Brian Perez: Maybe, I don't know. But go ahead. What's your question?

Jeremy: My question is I have a friend whose house burnt yesterday, and I'm trying to find spiritual resources that she can use during the time that she's waiting to get back into her house.

Brian Perez: So her house burnt, like burnt down?

Jeremy: Yes, it burnt yesterday. There's severe damage, and she will have to be in a motel for months before she can get back into her apartment.

Chris Williams: Practically speaking, because it is spiritual if we see our brother or sister in need, do you know if she has homeowner's insurance?

Jeremy: I am not sure about that. I just recently met her like a week or two ago.

Brian Perez: But it was an apartment, so was it an apartment building?

Jeremy: It was actually a house, and the damage occurred at her neighbor's house as well, her next-door neighbor's house. So it was a pretty major thing.

Chris Williams: My first recommendation is that we really can't get to the spiritual side of things when we're in physical crisis. One of the things that we see in the book of James—we see it throughout the entire scripture—is just coming alongside those in need to help be a voice and a sounding board, and sometimes just jumping in and being like, "Let me see if you're in shock, if your life has been disrupted and disoriented. What are the practical things that we can do to re-establish your basic needs and get those established first?"

Jeremy: Also, I wanted to make a real quick point here. Her daughter actually had to have major surgery on Friday, a three-and-a-half-hour neck surgery. So she had surgery last Wednesday, actually. It's very sad.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Jeremy, she does need a lot of support. Like Chris was saying, sometimes when people are in crisis, we say, "Is there anything I can do for you?" A lot of times people don't even know how to answer that. I think it's good to ask to assess the needs, but at the same time realize they may not be able to answer you.

Sometimes we have to observe and see what we can see from the outside that might be a need. Sometimes it's food. People do the meal trains. It's certainly always prayer. Sometimes it's just going and sitting with them. If they have a family member in surgery, just to sit with them. Sometimes when you're going through this, it's hard to even know how to pray or to sit and read your Bible. Sometimes just sharing that you're praying and maybe something from scripture that speaks to you, but realize they may not be able to take it all in.

Brian Perez: Jeremy, how long have you known this woman?

Jeremy: I've actually known the lady for like two or three weeks, but her daughter goes to my church and was recently baptized in February. I met her through that, actually. They're both Christians.

Brian Perez: So this is a new friend. You could say that maybe you've come along for such a time as this.

Chris Williams: I just think it's important that we make it clear that the need is there, without embarrassing anyone. Because I think in church communities, there are a great amount of resources. Maybe there is someone who knows how to navigate the insurance world so that she's not in this place of crisis and deep fear and anxiety for her basic needs because she knows that help is coming from her homeowner's insurance policy. Like you said, Jill, people can jump in. Some people are really gifted at the meal trains, making sure that meals are covered. But one of the things with people in crisis is they don't know how to navigate things, or they're just overwhelmed.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Think about how overwhelming all that would be. She had surgery, her daughter's having surgery, the house burns down, she's got to move to a motel. Where do you even start?

Chris Williams: There are intellectual resources, people that know how to get things done and how to get resources, and connecting to those people.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Jeremy, if your daughter is the one connected with your church, who are her daughter's close friends? Who are the people that she has been in relationship with longer? Maybe talking to those people too. What are they doing to come alongside the daughter, and can we add her mother into the mix?

Jeremy: They are both at churches they're associated with. She's associated with one her daughter is, and then she's associated with another one. I'm going to find out what church the mother is associated with and find out what they are doing to reach out to them as well.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Partner with other people that have been in relationship with them longer and pool the resources.

Brian Perez: Is the daughter at the motel too?

Jeremy: The daughter is actually in the hospital. She had surgery on Friday and is in the hospital and would have to go to rehab at a nursing home, actually.

Brian Perez: Well, our prayers are with your friend and her daughter. I'm sure everyone listening and watching can keep Jeremy's friend in your prayers. All the different helps that you guys mentioned, there's also maybe somebody can start a GoFundMe or a GiveSendGo, one of those types of things.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Visiting people when they're in the rehab center. The more eyes on people, the better because sometimes they don't always get the best care in those places.

Brian Perez: Jeremy, thanks for your phone call today. Thanks for caring for your friend. 1-800-229-3000 is the number to call in and speak with Jill and Chris. Here is Greg in Scranton, Pennsylvania, listening on WRGN. Greg, thanks for calling. Welcome.

Greg: Thanks for having me. Appreciate that.

Brian Perez: Yeah, what's going on?

Greg: Okay, a little bit of background about myself before I get into my problem. Back in 2006, I was driving around with a friend of mine. We'd just moved into an apartment together. We were going to be young bachelors, have the time of our lives, like nothing could stop us. We were drinking profusely. I'm not too sure who was driving at the time, but there was a car crash. I received a broken leg and traumatic brain injury, and my friend died in the crash. I dealt with that. A little bit of time and rehab therapy, and I got back to as best as I could do.

Some time after that, I started dating a woman. She has kids. In the beginning, life was very nice. It was a very good relationship. We loved each other, and I thought I was on top of the world. A short time after that, I'm still in the relationship now, but it's come to such a head that I'm just unsure what to do with my life, why God kept me alive, why am I still here, why am I still in this relationship? What am I to do?

Brian Perez: Do you guys live together, Greg?

Greg: I live with her now, yes.

Chris Williams: How long have you guys been together?

Greg: We started dating December 3rd, 2012. We met, and then we made it official May 13th, 2013. So, almost 13 or 14 years.

Chris Williams: Are you guys married?

Greg: No.

Chris Williams: Can I just ask why not?

Greg: I've always been apprehensive about it. Sometimes since we met, I've always felt that I would do something to hinder the relationship. I first wandered, then we got back together, and then I wandered again. I've been sabotaging the relationship.

Chris Williams: Greg, you've got a lot going on inside of you, man. One of the things is that there's something activated inside of you that keeps you violating your own value system. I know that you want to be faithful, you want to be good, you want to be probably sober and all of those things, but there is something inside that one, does get you acting outside of your value system. If there's infidelity, there is deep, deep hurt and wounding in the relationship that takes great amount of work and care to recover from. But regardless, most important inside of you is the work that you need to do for yourself. Because, Greg, you're living a life in which you are terrified of yourself and your own behavior, which tells me that there are two things active inside of you. One, there's unresolved pain. There's things in your past that you're carrying around that are deeply hurtful and attacking you at an identity level, which we frequently refer to as shame, something that tells you that you're less than, that you're unworthy, something along those lines.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: I'm wondering about survivor's guilt, Greg. Your friend died. You had went through a lot, but you said, "Why did God keep me alive?" Like you're supposed to do something more. And yet, in fear of that, with some of that unresolved grief, you're kind of just settling to stay mediocre, sabotaging yourself by not necessarily following exactly what God would want you to do. You've been in this relationship, and so it sounds like as you move closer in intimacy, then the sabotage happens. There's the acting out, and certainly that will keep things from moving. It sounds like a lot of inner conflict. You want more, you think God wants more for you, and yet you're saying, "No God, I'll just stay right over here and not fully embrace anything." I do think there's a part of you that feels really unworthy and maybe even like why did he let you live and take the other guy?

Greg: Right. Yeah, because I've always felt that as a soul, in high school we went to high school together, and he was always the social butterfly and I was always the fly on the wall or the quiet one. But then once I come to age of being able to partake in libations, I found the bar and we partied a lot. That's when my inhibitions dropped because, "Oh, I'm now on equal pairing with females." So I would take advantage of it. And because of that, yeah, that's what's been happening.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Prior to everything, Greg, you felt less than, like you didn't quite measure up. Then you have the liquid courage that makes gives you that false sense of being on a level playing field. But now you're kind of living life through, "I'm not measuring up."

Greg: Right, yeah. And then after the accident, a brain injury, that downfall basically has five times the effect on me. So I really don't partake anymore. But I'm still left with the repercussions of the accident.

Brian Perez: Greg, I think you would benefit from a life recovery group, and I'm sure we have many there in the Scranton, Pennsylvania area. So stay on hold and we'll help you get connected with one. We'll see if Jill and Chris have anything else to offer to you when we come back from the break. 1-800-229-3000 is the number to call for you to talk to Dr. Jill Hubbard and Chris Williams. We're in the studio for two hours today.

1-800-229-3000 is the number to call into the studio today. Let's go back to Greg in Pennsylvania. You still with us, Greg?

Greg: Yes, I am.

Brian Perez: Oh man, you sound so much better. What did you do different?

Greg: I apologize. Before, I was traveling in my vehicle, so I had a Bluetooth, and sometimes with the Bluetooth function it happens that it is not as loud as it used to be. But I just parked, so now you can hear me better.

Chris Williams: Greg, we have something for you. I think it would be really important for you to be a part of. Now, it's not for a little while off, about a month and a half away, on April 24th in Washington, DC—which happens to be within driving distance, relatively. It is "Every Man's Battle."

"Every Man's Battle" is this weekend workshop that is going to, I believe, open doors to transform the way that you are relating to yourself, your significant others, and God. You are carrying around a lot of historical pain and shame that is activating itself and making poor decisions, including sexual acting out. "Every Man's Battle" is going to help you lift up the hood on your car and see what is malfunctioning in the engine and start giving you direction and a new way and a new pathway to start getting it functioning, to start fixing it and working on it so that you can be healthier for yourself and the people around you.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Greg, I kind of picture you just bobbing in the water, kind of treading water and just kind of keeping the status quo but desiring for more. "Every Man's Battle" helps you to get your feet on the ground. It really helps to ground you, and it's the fastest way to change. I think you've been suffering a long time.

Greg: Right. And I was just going to also say, as a result of the accident, I was working full-time, of course, after college. I graduated in '06, a little bit before college then. I was working full-time, and then the car accident happened. Obviously, my work life took a massive hit after rehab therapy and stuff like that. Then once I got moved back home, my parents were looking for what's my calling, how am I able to help sustain a life for myself but then also contribute to my community and make that better? How can I pitch in? Granted, I don't walk the best; my gait's a little crooked.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: All of that said, Greg, I think sometimes we have to get ourselves in order before we have something to really give. I love what you're saying, but I think sometimes we get it backwards. We want to go out and we want to help our community because then we don't have to look at ourselves.

Chris Williams: I want to say this if financial resources are a barrier. Two things. The first thing I want you to do is what you can do today. I want you to get on our New Life website or app, and I want you to download the "Every Man's Battle" podcast and start listening to it. Start listening to it at the beginning and just keep going through it, because that's going to help support you. The next thing is get on and register for "Every Man's Battle" coming up in April. If finances are a struggle or an issue, we have scholarshiping available. Look at that as an option. Your calling today is a great sign of courage and readiness to change. What we want to be able to do is activate that and get momentum in your life right now and not have too many barriers for that. It just requires a little effort on your part, so go and get the "Every Man's Battle" podcast, register today.

Brian Perez: You can find all those details at NewLife.com, or you can call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. As Jill said earlier, sometimes we want to help the community around us when we're not helping ourselves. It reminds me of the thing when you're on an airplane and they tell you, "Put the mask on yourself first before you help your children or the people next to you." Greg, I really think you'll be amazed after going to this. You will feel so much lighter and you'll have greater clarity.

Greg: I appreciate that. I've also done conferences in my neck of the woods here, the "Be a Man" conference we've had in the Northeast PA section. They've always had great speakers and great talkers and great subjects to discuss. I remember there was one time, I wish I would have known more, the better at the time, but Matt Fradd was there. I should have gone to his talk. I missed it. But then Deacon Harold Burke-Sivers, he was down there once.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: There are wonderful conferences that people do, but I guarantee you there's none like this one that we do.

Brian Perez: This is not a conference. It's an intensive, Greg. It's way more participatory. You don't just sit there passively listening and learning. You're involved. Small groups, you talk about each other's battles, you get to know each other, you get to hold yourself accountable to guys that you meet who are struggling with the same thing. You can find out all about it on NewLife.com. Register today. There's also a discount if you sign up by April 10th. Do it today because otherwise, if you put it off, if you're like me, you'll put it off and put it off and then all of a sudden you realize, "Oh well, I can still sign up, but I missed that discount." Do it right now. Greg, thanks so much for calling in today. Peggy, you are next. You are on hold right now. We'll talk to you in just a little bit. 1-800-229-3000 is our number.

Becky Brown: I am so excited to launch our "99 for the 1" partner initiative. Every day, we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression, all kinds of ways. It reminds us of the story in Luke 15 where the shepherd, they leave the 99 to go rescue the one. You know, we've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life, and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. "99 for the 1" is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE or visit NewLife.com/99for1.

Brian Perez: 1-800-229-3000 is the number to call in to the studio today. Let's go right to the phones. Here is Peggy, who is in Fort Worth, Texas, listening on SiriusXM, channel 131. Welcome, Peggy, to New Life LIVE.

Peggy: Hello.

Brian Perez: Hi. How can we help you? Hello, can you hear us? Don't be listening on the radio. Be listening on your phone.

Peggy: Yes, I'm listening on the radio. Do I need to turn my radio down?

Brian Perez: Yes, and I hate telling people to turn off the radio. That's just not something I like doing because we want people to listen to the radio, but right now for the next few minutes as we're speaking with you, it'll be delayed. It'll drive you nuts.

Peggy: Okay, I'm here.

Brian Perez: Okay, so what is your question for us today?

Peggy: My question is just some pointers regarding infidelity. My husband was unfaithful for the first about 25 years of our marriage. We went through lots of encouragement and some counseling—not probably enough. I made the decision to stay to try to keep the family together. Since that time, I did file for divorce in 2013 because I felt like he was having some emotional affairs. I ended up not going through with it.

But now, currently the issue is I went out of town for a church conference with my daughter-in-law, and my husband ended up going to a woman's birthday party while I was out of town. He told me he was going to this lady's birthday party, and then he never made a comment that he went or what went on. I finally confronted him about seven days ago, and he went to a woman's birthday party, but it was not the original woman. He went to a different woman's party and never told me that the change happened. I have just felt really violated again.

Chris Williams: You said you were trying to keep the family together, but first 25 years of infidelity, what has your husband done differently to get help for his patterns of unfaithfulness? How long have you guys been married?

Peggy: A long time. We've been married 55 years. As far as reaching out for help, not really.

Chris Williams: 25 years of acting out doesn't disappear into the night. It takes unbelievable amounts of rigorous work over a very long period of time. One of the aspects that gets all the attention is the acting out. But things have to occur before the acting out occurs: hiding and deception. One of the things I'm constantly looking for in the recovery from this pattern is where's a person hiding and deceiving? It doesn't matter; I don't care if it's finances, I don't care if it's time spent, I don't care if it's location, because the recovery from the deceit and the lying or the gaslighting has to be addressed if there's any chance of the restoration of trust being restored in the marriage itself. What you have here is just a repeat of that old definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. If your husband hasn't done anything, I would expect nothing less than for him to continue a pattern of acting out.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: This is his way of coping and getting good feelings about himself, and he hasn't developed any other healthier ways of coping. He may be able to be, in a sense, a "good boy" and go into deeper hiding and deceiving so that it seems like he's showing up more for the marriage. But this keeps popping up. There hasn't been any real work done. I totally get you trying and staying in this marriage and not just throwing in the towel. You guys have spent over half your life together, and you've had kids together. There's a lot to that commitment of family. He has an illness that keeps showing up.

Chris Williams: Well, it's just an untreated illness.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: You know that little voice inside of you that tells you something's off. You know that you need to trust that because God has given you that intuition. You don't even need to know all the details. You just know something's off, and it's time for him to do something different. When your behavior changes, it puts them on notice.

Brian Perez: Peggy, the first woman whose party you thought he was going to, were you okay with him going to that party?

Peggy: Not really. I asked him the question, "Why would you do that?" because she is a relative of one of the affair persons. I was very upset that he was going, but he said, "I'm going. Do you want to go with me?" I told him I had already made the plans at my daughter-in-law's church for a women's conference. I was not available, and I'd made those plans two weeks ago and told him.

Chris Williams: What this story tells me is that, Peggy, he's not interested in your safety, security, and he's not interested in your trust. Without those, I don't know how you have any sense of peace or okayness in the relationship. And not to mention, like none of the repair that's been happening and none of the recovery that's been happening as a result of what's happened over the course of your marriage. I think you have some very different decisions to make.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: I think getting the book "Worthy of Her Trust" is good for you to know what you should expect. Has he read it?

Peggy: No, he wasn't interested.

Chris Williams: Peggy, you're in Fort Worth, is that right? This has got to be a God thing. This weekend is "Restore" in Dallas. "Restore" is our workshop for women who have experienced sexual betrayal in their relationships, specifically in their marriages.

Peggy: I attended that several years ago. I have gone. I guess I felt like I was doing all the work, and I was seeing him do nothing.

Chris Williams: Unfortunately, this is what's really unfair is you do have to do work. The work is really, one, confronting reality, which is terrible in your situation, but two, is getting yourself in a safer, better place. Boundaries and getting support. I don't want you to look at "Restore" as more work; I want you to look at it as more care. You need a lot of care to get through and to work through and to go through it again and to really confront him so that there is motivation to change. If there's not, there's different decisions to be made.

Brian Perez: Sometimes that is the pushback that we hear from women. They think, "I didn't do anything wrong. He did it. He's the one that needs to get the work." And he does. He needs to go to "Every Man's Battle" or find therapy. But you also need help and care from the concerned women who are going to be at "Restore." It's this weekend in Dallas. If finances are an issue, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE to ask about need-based scholarships. Peggy, we sure hope you can be there. It's right down the street from you.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Sometimes, too, we change it up. So if Peggy attended years ago, it might be nice to go again. It'll be a new experience, and it's different people. I'm also thinking for Peggy, because she's been in this so long and she did go to "Restore," that Codependents of Sex Addicts is a 12-step group organization that can be very helpful for ongoing support. Even though you're very experienced at living with a cheating husband, and I've known so many people that say, "I hate my marriage, but I love being married," it's a hard thing to give up a lifestyle and everything intertwined. We hate divorce. So women will often resign themselves to living in this kind of relationship with someone who isn't interested in building their trust or giving them security. I think that it would be important to tell your husband that you realize that he is not interested in really truly having an intimate relationship with you and one where he cares about how you feel about things, and that you're going to think about what you're going to do. Sometimes we don't have to tell someone, "Oh, I'm going to do this, I'm filing for divorce." You just put them on notice that I can no longer live this way; it's getting too uncomfortable.

Brian Perez: Let's go back to the phones. 1-800-229-3000. We'll go from Peggy to Patrick, who is in Riverside, California, watching us on YouTube. Patrick, thanks so much for calling in today. What's your question for us?

Patrick: Yes, I'm calling because I have an anxiety that I get around my kids and I don't know what to do about it. They're adults, 33 and 35, but it was also in childhood when they were little as well. My daughter lives pretty close by, so maybe every other week. My son lives out of state, so that's impossible to see him on a daily basis. But that's the thing is there's a very big disconnect. I was wondering if it has something to do with I had this same feeling around my mother, that of anxiety around her.

Chris Williams: Anxiety in your case is a fear response. So the fear response points to a threat. What's the threat that you feel when you're around your mom?

Patrick: Well, my parents divorced when I was very little, I was around five, and I lived with my dad. My dad did some impressions into my mind like, "Oh, your mom doesn't love you," kind of the way to kind of put a wedge. So my entire family is very, very disconnected. There's no connection. It seems like we're on our own islands, if that makes any sense. Relationally isolated, exactly. Unfortunately, I did, when I went to see her, I'd always feel like I didn't want to be there. So there was kind of like a when I showed up, the anxiety came in and depression. But as I was told by my siblings that my mom was checked out a lot of times on Valium because that was the antidepressant of the day back in the '70s. So she wasn't very available.

Chris Williams: Right there in the center of your chest exists a message or an identity about yourself that is a false identity. It's a false belief. But because it got in there when you were five and it was reaffirmed by your parents' divorce and reaffirmed by your mother's struggle with her own substance issues, it convinced you that you're unlovable. And in closeness is when that is triggered. It's like so there's a landmine inside of you, and the landmine is unlovable, and then there's tripwires around that landmine. And the tripwire is closeness. So very few, if any, relationships on planet earth are as close as a parent to a child. And so closeness equals unlovable, and that's the fear and the anxiety that comes up.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: At five years old, because you're highly dependent on parents, the message children give to themselves is something is wrong with me, because we need to keep our parents good so we make ourselves bad because that at least preserves that someone will be there to take care of me. And so if something is wrong with you, then fast forward you're an adult with children, the fear that somehow you may damage your children, you won't be enough for them, they won't love you, and so that anxiousness in keeping them a bit at arm's distance makes a lot of sense, Patrick. Does that make sense to you?

Patrick: It makes a lot of sense. I'm in therapy, so I've actually been seeing a therapist for a year or so. How do I, what do I need to talk to her about to help me address this?

Chris Williams: I think getting into what I call the body or your core experience. I think going back and talking through the ways in which you're discovering that you feel and believe yourself to be unlovable. And then what we start to do is realize that, listen, man, there's a five-year-old. If you were to picture the five-year-old today and you were to try to ascribe unlovable to him, it would make no sense whatsoever. That begins the beginning point of retelling our own story in a very different way and re-meaning it, meaning that it means something different. Unfortunately, I was born into two human beings that were unable to love me the way I needed to be loved, support me and be the parents that I needed to be, but that had nothing to do with me. Now, that's easy to think about; it's harder to work out, and it just takes work over and over.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: See, you're now seeing it through adult eyes where you only had the child's eyes previously.

Brian Perez: Patrick, there's a resource in our store called "Doing Life with Your Adult Children." We think you should pick that up from NewLife.com. Thanks so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a moment, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to NewLife.com to find out more information. And thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholness and healing, and we're so glad that you're here.