New Life LIVE

Guest (Male): Welcome to the New Life Live podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: If you feel overwhelmed or defeated by what you're facing, pick up the phone and call New Life Live. Your breakthrough is just a phone call away. I'm your host, Brian Perez, happy to be sharing the studio today for two hours with licensed marriage and family therapist, Dr. Jackie Mac-Harris, and clinical psychologist, Dr. Alice Benton. The doctors are in. No appointment necessary, just call in to 1-800-229-3000. Alice, let's start with you. What's on your mind to begin?

Dr. Alice Benton: Thinking about a story back from my high school days when a beautiful cheerleader started to show that she was pregnant. It was widely known that the high school football star was dating her. She was asked to leave the school during the remainder of her pregnancy. He starred in every football game for the rest of that school year. I sure hope that behind the scenes, more was done than I'm aware of.

I was in a room with a group of incredible women, many of them church leaders, and they gathered together to talk about the varieties of shame that we women carry. Abortion was one of the main topics. There are some startling statistics about abortion. 70% of the women who have abortions are Christians and attend church at least once a month.

When we think about those who are in church, one in ten of the women around you in the pews to the side, in front, and behind, one in ten has had an abortion. The majority of them say the church had no impact on their decision and they didn't feel safe enough to talk about it with anybody at church because it was so likely that they would be shamed, ostracized, and judged.

How many of the Christian men sitting around us were the father of an aborted child? It's easy to judge a person who has had an abortion, and I agree that abortion is wrong and that it's the loss of a life. It's the loss of a child of God. But I have never heard the story directly from a woman who has chosen an abortion who did it for purely selfish or cosmetic reasons.

I have heard many stories firsthand of women who were desperate, who were pressured by their boyfriend, pressured by their own many Christian parents, and by the parents of their boyfriend. I feel for the men and their involvement in it because I think they many times have little to no choice. But so many of the women who chose an abortion felt like they had to and were unsupported by the father of that child.

I bring all of this up because it's something that we mothers should talk about with our daughters. If we don't teach them that we're safe, that we'll welcome them, that we'll help them if they're ever in that situation, if we don't teach them how to prevent that situation, they will not know who to turn to. Schools and outside forces will teach them what to do, and it probably won't be our way.

Are we talking to our sons? Because there is a son in every one of those abortion equations. So one of the best solutions is for us to make it a safe topic for us to be willing to say, "Me too," if that's your story. I want to help you and love you through this. We love you here at New Life, and if this is either your story historically or something you're currently facing, please give us a call.

Dr. Jackie Mac-Harris: I have so many thoughts. I love that you're bringing the husbands, the fathers, the males into the conversation because too often the woman stands alone in the shame and the blame. It's a two-party deal here.

I was just thinking about how often the woman is shamed and put in the spotlight for an unwanted pregnancy or a pregnancy that's ended, or a pregnancy or an affair or any of the things. Similar to in scripture, where the woman is called out in the act of adultery. If you caught her in the act of adultery, where's the guy?

Too often the guy is nowhere in the equation, whether that is releasing them and letting them kind of off the hook for things, so they don't actually have to publicly deal with the shame. Like the football player, he's getting the star in every game and she had to leave. There have been times where someone has shared, and that is what has happened. She has been asked to leave the church and he gets to stay and do what he's doing.

I'm grateful that you brought it up. On the other side of that is that men mourn and grieve the loss of their babies. We rarely, even with miscarriages, focus on the husband. With live healthy births, at six weeks we ask women if they have postpartum depression. We don't ask men, and they just became parents too.

Yes, it's a hormonal thing, but it's also a very big change of life, and we don't pay enough attention, I think, to men. We don't hold them responsible in the same way as we do with women, and we don't correct them the way that we do with women publicly. We don't come around them and care for them and mourn with them when they have a loss like that.

The system being so lopsided impacts relationship too. We see that then show up in lots of relationships. A lot of people who aren't going to church anymore, it's because of things like this, whether they've experienced it or walked through it with somebody else.

Brian Perez: And that's somewhere the church has failed admittedly, because we're supposed to be the place where, you know, the hospital for the sick, as we often say. Instead, there's judgment, shame, ridicule, whatever, and it's not easy. That's why people don't like to say anything. I would say even maybe people in the church who are not just churchgoers, but maybe part of the church leadership team or whatever, because now if they say something, they might get ostracized and they'd rather hold on to it and have that appearance of, "Oh yeah, everything's great," when it's really not.

Dr. Jackie Mac-Harris: And that is happening every day in churches around the country. Those of us who are trying to bring people back into the doors find it really difficult when every day we read of some harm that's been done to someone that's come out. This is one of the things that we don't really hear about and read about, so I'm really glad you brought it up.

The statistics are staggering. The very people who, 70% of Christian women, have had abortions and they probably all vote for the rest of time for other women to not have that option, probably because of the grief that they experience. And yet they were able to make a choice for their life that women aren't allowed to make now.

It's just interesting that that's the statistic and that's not talked about. It's blamed on low-income impoverished women being promiscuous and selfish when the reality is women aren't having abortions randomly going out and playing around and then having an abortion at the rate that people believe they are.

It's more things like this. They were devastated. They often didn't want to have an abortion. I've walked through with several young women who've struggled with do I keep this kid or don't I keep this kid, and the husband is saying don't or the boyfriend is saying don't. There are women who really were pressured into abortion and then we as believers and people of who should be sharing the gospel and grace, shame them and make them feel bad, make them want to leave and not come around.

Dr. Alice Benton: It's easy to point fingers and ostracize someone who has obvious sin with a visual presence, but any of those of us who are shaming them or ostracizing them, we have our own hidden sin. That's why Jesus said, "Whichever one of you doesn't have sin, you go ahead throw the first stone." None of them could. None of them could, and He chose not to.

If you're a pastor who feels ill-equipped to handle this, New Life loves to partner with pastors and to get you the resources you need. We can help churches set up groups like our Healing is a Choice group that you can facilitate right there in your building to bring these folks together and to offer them healing.

The basics of it are making a place safe enough for women and the fathers to tell the story of the decision and what compelled them to make the decision, receiving compassion and grace and forgiveness from other people, and naming that baby and honoring that child that was lost. I have seen such a lifting of the shame and the guilt when people walk through those steps.

Brian Perez: Great conversation today here on New Life Live. If you want to talk about this or anything else, we're here for two hours at 1-800-229-3000. Let's talk about that when we come back from the break here on New Life Live.

Becky Brown: Hello, it's Becky Brown, and I am so excited to launch our 99 for the 1 partner initiative. Every day we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression, all kinds of ways. It reminds us of the story in Luke 15 where the shepherd leaves the 99 to go rescue the one.

You know, we've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life, and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99 for the 1 is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE or visit newlife.com/99for1.

Brian Perez: In case you thought you missed it, the Understanding Your Attachment Style webinar has been postponed. So no, you haven't missed it. The new date is April 2nd, a week from tomorrow, so there's still time to register. And then after that, the Freedom from Fear and Anxiety webinar is happening on April 14th. Each webinar is just $25 and goes for 90 minutes, including 30 minutes of Q&A. You can text the word "webinar" to 28950 and we'll text you back a link that's got information on both and a tip sheet for both. Again, text "webinar" to 28950.

And the topic that we started off on today's show, there is an online course coming up soon. It begins the first week of May. It's called Healing is a Choice, and I believe that's one of the tracks that's offered in the course, that's what I've heard so far. Find out more about that at newlife.com or you can call us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Jackie, I think you wanted to, and you briefly did, but let's talk about this a little more.

Dr. Jackie Mac-Harris: I was just thinking about how often the woman is shamed and put in the spotlight for an unwanted pregnancy or a pregnancy that's ended, or a pregnancy or an affair or any of the things. Similar to in scripture, where the woman is called out in the act of adultery. If you caught her in the act of adultery, where's the guy?

Too often the guy is nowhere in the equation, whether that is releasing them and letting them kind of off the hook for things, so they don't actually have to publicly deal with the shame. Like the football player, he's getting the star in every game and she had to leave. There have been times where someone has shared, and that is what has happened. She has been asked to leave the church and he gets to stay and do what he's doing.

I'm grateful that you brought it up. On the other side of that is that men mourn and grieve the loss of their babies. We rarely, even with miscarriages, focus on the husband. With live healthy births, at six weeks we ask women if they have postpartum depression. We don't ask men, and they just became parents too. Yes, it's a hormonal thing, but it's also a very big change of life, and we don't pay enough attention to men.

We don't hold them responsible in the same way as we do with women, and we don't correct them the way that we do with women publicly. We don't come around them and care for them and mourn with them when they have a loss like that. The system being so lopsided impacts relationship too. We see that then show up in lots of relationships. A lot of people who aren't going to church anymore, it's because of things like this, whether they've experienced it or walked through it with somebody else.

Brian Perez: And that's somewhere the church has failed admittedly, because we're supposed to be the place where the hospital for the sick, as we often say. Instead, there's judgment, shame, ridicule, whatever, and it's not easy. That's why people don't like to say anything. I would say even maybe people in the church who are not just churchgoers, but maybe part of the church leadership team or whatever, because now if they say something, they might get ostracized and they'd rather hold on to it and have that appearance of, "Oh yeah, everything's great," when it's really not.

Dr. Jackie Mac-Harris: And that is happening every day in churches around the country. Those of us who are trying to bring people back into the doors find it really difficult when every day we read of some harm that's been done to someone that's come out. This is one of the things that we don't really hear about and read about, so I'm really glad you brought it up.

The statistics are staggering. The very people who, 70% of Christian women, have had abortions and they probably all vote for the rest of time for other women to not have that option, probably because of the grief that they experience. And yet they were able to make a choice for their life that women aren't allowed to make now.

It's just interesting that that's the statistic and that's not talked about. It's blamed on low-income impoverished women being promiscuous and selfish when the reality is women aren't having abortions randomly going out and playing around and then having an abortion at the rate that people believe they are. It's more things like this. They were devastated. They often didn't want to have an abortion.

I've walked through with several young women who've struggled with do I keep this kid or don't I keep this kid, and the husband is saying don't or the boyfriend is saying don't. There are women who really were pressured into abortion and then we as believers and people who should be sharing the gospel and grace, shame them and make them feel bad, make them want to leave and not come around.

Dr. Alice Benton: It's easy to point fingers and ostracize someone who has obvious sin with a visual presence, but any of those of us who are shaming them or ostracizing them, we have our own hidden sin. That's why Jesus said, "Whichever one of you doesn't have sin, you go ahead throw the first stone." None of them could. None of them could, and He chose not to.

If you're a pastor who feels ill-equipped to handle this, New Life loves to partner with pastors and to get you the resources you need. We can help churches set up groups like our Healing is a Choice group that you can facilitate right there in your building to bring these folks together and to offer them healing.

The basics of it are making a place safe enough for women and the fathers to tell the story of the decision and what compelled them to make the decision, receiving compassion and grace and forgiveness from other people, and naming that baby and honoring that child that was lost. I have seen such a lifting of the shame and the guilt when people walk through those steps.

Brian Perez: Great conversation today here on New Life Live. If you want to talk about this or anything else, we're here for two hours at 1-800-229-3000. We're going to go right to the phones now. Here is David, who was referred to us by a friend or good friend, I would say. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, is where you're from. Hi, David. How can we help you?

David: Hey, hi. I've been suffering this morning with total regret of selling my family estate and then my beautiful daughter Molly's death from fentanyl poisoning. Dealing with a lot of regret and grieving her loss. Double whammy.

Dr. Jackie Mac-Harris: Did you recently sell the estate?

David: It's been 25 years and I'm still suffering over it.

Dr. Jackie Mac-Harris: And how long ago did your daughter die by fentanyl?

David: Five years ago.

Brian Perez: Our condolences. That's just such a hard loss. When you say you regret her loss, what do you feel? That you had a part in it or why do you feel this?

David: I married her mother with two boys and the oldest was a complete nightmare. She wouldn't let me discipline them whatsoever. I never touched them or anything. It was just to help out. Like, "Hey guys, take the trash out." No, they don't have to do anything.

So when they got older, they were five years older than Molly and they turned the basement into a nightclub with pool tables and bars and a dozen guys over. Poor little Molly was maybe 14 or 15 and they were 18 and 19, 20. I think back, she lost her virginity and then they got her hooked on heroin. It was just a nightmare.

When I had my family estate, I had built five apartments on it and all paid for. I should have brought her up and got her in one of those to get her away from those boys. It's just regret, it's terrible regret. Molly was so beautiful. You walked through the mall with her and everyone turned around and was whispering, "Who is that?" She looked a lot like Britney Spears. But her heart was even as pretty. She was running five halfway houses in Baltimore when she died. She just relapsed and it killed her.

Dr. Alice Benton: And you felt so powerless. You wanted to discipline those boys, but your wife, their mother, wouldn't let you. And then you wanted to escape with Molly to the additional homes that you had, the apartments, and for whatever reason that didn't happen. So you carry a weight of responsibility that you could have or should have intervened, but for various reasons, you weren't able to. Are you still married to the same woman?

David: Oh no, we were divorced. I'd be out in the driveway on a boat on a trailer and just asking the boys to bring the fishing rods and coolers and she's yelling no they don't have to do it. One day that ended it was I was cutting the grass in the back and stopped and asked her to tell them to come out and pick their toys up. No, they don't have to do anything.

Dr. Jackie Mac-Harris: So when Molly was 14 and the wild partying and stuff was happening with the brothers downstairs, were you still living in the home?

David: No, see, I wasn't quite aware of how dangerous it was for her.

Dr. Jackie Mac-Harris: And so that's why you're regretting not having her come live with you?

David: Yeah. And regret not sitting down with her mother and talking about the birds and the bees because she had all these boys surrounding her and stuff.

Dr. Alice Benton: David, this is just such a tragedy that you have carried for all these years. I respect that you see maybe I could have done something more or differently, but you tried. I also hear you tried many times to call those boys up. Would you tell us what you're hoping for from us today?

David: Well, even the day she died, I went down to visit with her. I live in a motorhome and I went down to a very famous place down on the Chesapeake Bay where I kind of grew up too. And now I never want to see it, but I got down there and it was a Saturday morning. I looked at her and she looked really bad and I chalked it up to well she's been working all week. But I think she had relapsed on that Friday night. So we went to bed with the agreement we were going to have breakfast in the morning and everything. I had police banging on my motorhome at 4:00 in the morning telling me of the death and it was just devastating. But I didn't even see when she was looking bad how I should have put her in the car and taken her right to the hospital. I didn't understand heroin addiction and I didn't know how to help her.

Dr. Alice Benton: David, I think your grief and regret must feel like you have a soaking wet blanket wrapped around you. It's heavy, it's cold, and I think it keeps you isolated from other people. So it's been very hard to move on, and how do you ever move on from the loss of a child, especially when you feel partly responsible for it?

David: Yeah, see, I'm totally isolated. I'm here by myself in a motorhome in the woods.

Dr. Alice Benton: God doesn't want you to keep wearing that soaking wet heavy blanket anymore. Do you know how He helps you to take it off, David?

David: Well, Molly wouldn't want me to either. She's up there now saying you've suffered enough, move on.

Dr. Alice Benton: Do you know how God helps you take it off, and Molly would want it too? It's through other people, David. You're out there alone in the woods and you've got God, but you know, He works through other people. Molly knew that. That's why she had all those halfway houses started because she was trying so long to get sober, stay sober, and help other people get there too. She knew people need people.

David: It's funny you're saying that because I have my senior pastor coming to pick me up for lunch tomorrow. And I keep hoping if I win the lotto, I want to build a rehab and call it the House of Molly. HOM. Come home to the House of Molly.

Dr. Alice Benton: Oh David, that's beautiful. Because you know other people need your help and they need the help of Molly's story. So David, for you to get strong enough to do that, tell the pastor your story and your regret and keep telling people until you know you have that wet blanket off your back.

David: Yeah, I want to go to a rehab and dress up like a hobo and sit on the stage with a coffee cup with two quarters in it and go, "Anybody got any change? You got any change?" And I get up and I walk behind a curtain and strip everything off and I got a three-piece suit on and I walk around and look at everybody and go, "Do you see how easy it is to change your physical appearance?"

Brian Perez: We've got to go to break. We'll be back.

Becky Brown: Hello, it's Becky Brown, and I am so excited to launch our 99 for the 1 partner initiative. Every day we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression, all kinds of ways. It reminds us of the story in Luke 15 where the shepherd leaves the 99 to go rescue the one.

You know, we've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life, and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99 for the 1 is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE or visit newlife.com/99for1.

Guest (Male): In the past 20 years, New Life has helped thousands of men reclaim their sexual integrity through the Every Man's Battle workshop. We know that the path to freedom begins when we bring our secret struggles into the light and trust God to heal what we can't fix on our own.

At Every Man's Battle, you'll join other men who understand your fight, breaking the isolation that fuels destructive patterns. If you're struggling, don't wait to discover the feeling of genuine freedom. Join us the weekend of April 24th in Washington, D.C. All the details are at newlife.com. And if finances are an issue, ask about need-based scholarships by calling us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE.

Dr. Jackie Mac-Harris: Brian, if any men out there are thinking about having been involved in an abortion, but you don't know who to talk to about it or where you can find other men who would have empathy for you, Every Man's Battle is an ideal place to talk about that.

Brian Perez: Yep, get the details at newlife.com or call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. And for our previous caller, David, we want to let you know about finding a life recovery group there in the Gettysburg area. So stay on the phone and we'll connect you with someone. David, thanks so much for calling in today and thank your friend or whoever it was that referred you. We're going to be praying for you and your pastor as you guys have lunch tomorrow because I think that'll be a great meeting, great conversation. Let's talk to Warner in Washington, D.C., who listens to us on WAVA. Welcome, Warner, to New Life Live. Thanks for calling 1-800-229-3000.

Warner: Blessings on blessings.

Brian Perez: Thank you. How are you, Warner?

Warner: I'm excellent. I was any better, I would be you.

Brian Perez: I'm going to have to use that. That's great. Yes. Love that. You got us with that one, Warner.

Warner: See, I had to say something to break the ice.

Brian Perez: It's been broken. It's melted.

Warner: It's melted, Dr. Jackie. How are you?

Dr. Jackie Mac-Harris: I'm good. How are you? Well, blessed, right? You're excellent. If you were any better, you'd be Brian.

Warner: Keep that in your back pocket. It's good to be heard from. So my situation is that as a believer and a minister in the gospel, I find myself ministering to many different people about many different situations. And the first thing that I say to them is, "Do you have a relationship with God and are you filled with the Holy Spirit?"

So many people, they have a relationship with God, but they have not completely accepted the other gift of the Holy Spirit. Yesterday I found myself ministering to someone and he was going through a stress, anxiety about a problem at his law firm and different things. And I said, "Did you talk to the Holy Spirit about it?" He said, "Talk to the Holy Spirit?" I said, "The Holy Spirit is not it, is a person."

God is God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit. So what I'm saying is that the Holy Spirit reveals the truth and in spiritual growth of Galatians 5:22 and 23 is the fruit of the spirit. So what I'm saying is that I don't believe in this dispensation that so many believers are using, when God gave his only begotten son, he did all he's going to do, our faith has to catch up with it. I don't believe that many believers are using all the tools that they have in their toolbox by speaking and directly treating the Holy Spirit as a person, at the third person of the Godhead. Does your team agree with that?

Dr. Jackie Mac-Harris: I would say that I think a lot of people aren't using all the gifts. Many people don't even know what their gifts are. They don't not everyone even recognizes like fivefold ministry. A lot of people, we have so many different denominations. And so I would agree with you that there are many people who don't understand the power of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

And I think we have different perspectives on how that happens and where that comes from. It's also some people have the gift of faith and that then strengthens their relationship with the Holy Spirit and other others haven't developed that yet.

Warner: Right, but see you use the very interesting word dispensation. I was talking to a brother the other day and he's like, "Well, I'm Catholic." I said, "You're not Catholic, you go to a Catholic church."

Dr. Jackie Mac-Harris: Yeah, well, but he identifies as Catholic. That means that for him he identifies.

Warner: Right. And that's what I was trying to break the ice with him to understand that it's more of an intimate relationship that we see. I'll say good morning Holy Spirit, I'll say good morning to my wife, but as a result of that, do we talk to the Holy Spirit enough to understand that?

Brian Perez: So what's your main question for us today, Warner? Because we're coming up to our break.

Warner: My main question is that would you agree or do you think it's wise and wisdom that in asking people or introduced in them, understanding them about the Holy Spirit and asking, have they talked to the Holy Spirit?

Dr. Jackie Mac-Harris: Yes, I absolutely believe that people need to talk to the Holy Spirit. I can't do therapy without it. I often say I don't know how secular therapists do it because the entire time I'm in communion with the Holy Spirit trying to decide what should happen next.

Dr. Alice Benton: And I'm going to point to the Old Testament that David, King David, needed the Holy Spirit. He also needed Nathan. And when we come back, I'll point out why.

Brian Perez: All right, this is New Life Live. Thanks so much for watching and listening today. We're going to be in the studio for the rest of this hour and all of next, so that's 90 minutes for you to call us at 1-800-229-3000.

When you give to New Life, your generosity helps restore broken marriages and families and helps people break free from addiction. Others find strength in the midst of depression and grief or grow deeper in faith and spiritual health. All of the transformation that happens through this ministry is because of our faithful supporters, and we are so, so thankful for you.

Join the way God is working through New Life by making a gift today. You can give online at newlife.com or by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE or text "NLM" to 28950. And to make a difference on a monthly recurring basis, you can become a 99 for the 1 partner. Learn more at newlife.com/99for1. 1-800-229-3000 is the number to reach us in the studio today. We've got doctors Jackie Mac-Harris and Alice Benton, and we were speaking with Warner in Washington, D.C., who was asking questions about the Holy Spirit. You brought up a great point, Jackie, about how is it that secular therapists do this without the Holy Spirit.

Dr. Jackie Mac-Harris: Education is great. The education that we get as marriage and family therapists, as clinical counselors and psychologists and social workers, that master-level education is key to understanding the way the mind works. And if you're a believer, then at least for me, the theology that our religion espouses makes so much more sense now that I understand psychology. So for me, it's a marriage made in heaven. It's perfect.

But I often wonder how secular therapists do it because while schooling was important to me and helped me be better at what I was doing, I was already coaching people, I was already ministering, I was already leading women, being the person that people would call when they were struggling, counseling people. And while it would help in the moment, we could do scripture, we could pray, it did not change their life because we weren't getting at the root of the problem.

And I think the Holy Spirit's guidance is why I became a therapist. And so I certainly rely on the Holy Spirit when I'm doing my work. But as Christians, we forget we are a certain segment of the population and we assume everybody else was taught all these things and everybody else knows all these things. They don't. So other people aren't using the Holy Spirit. They don't have that as a resource. And so yes, we definitely need counselors because there is wisdom in counselors. And you mentioned how David needed the Holy Spirit as well as needing Nathan.

Dr. Alice Benton: That's right. David was obviously so close to the Lord. Look at the Psalms and his ability to be honest and vulnerable with God while holding on to faith despite his life being in danger over and over again in his life. But the Holy Spirit seems to choose to speak to us through other humans.

And Nathan was sent to David to confront him. Remember he told the story about the lamb when that lamb was taken by the rich man, even though it was the precious pet of the poor family? Because David had done that to Bathsheba's family. And so we usually need other human beings to confront us.

And that's what Nathan was for David. He was the Holy Spirit's mouthpiece in that instance. And I think as therapists, we're just trained, whether we know it or not, we're trained to do the things the Bible tells us to do in close relationship: to be iron that sharpens iron, to confess to one another so you can pray for each other and be healed, and to encourage and lift one another up. Other things as well, but I would say those are three basics of what's happening in good therapy sessions.

Dr. Jackie Mac-Harris: Like you, Alice, I tell my clients, especially those who are hesitant to allow spirituality in the session, we don't have to, but you will get a lot more out of these therapy sessions if we invite God and the Holy Spirit to guide what we do. It will be much more effective than me by myself because that's what the Holy Spirit does, He enhances that relational work. It's really sanctification. That's what therapy is without calling it that. It's the sanctification process, and we can't do it without Him, not well.

I think it's even a discipling process. We're helping people learn other things about themselves and how to move forward on the path that they're on. There are times where I've had clients that aren't believers that will tell me they don't want faith to be a part of their work, and I'm always honest and I'll say, "Well, we don't have to pray or talk about God or use scripture in any way, but you know I'm a Christian therapist and so it's in me. So I'm not going to ask the Holy Spirit to leave the room, but I don't have to bring those things up."

But I want my clients to have that option to say well that's not going to work for me. And so I'm honest because that's something they can't see, right? It's work I'm doing inside while I'm talking with them. And I find that it brings to memory, back to my recall, the things that I learned in school, things that I know about scripture, things that I've learned over the course of my life that can be helpful in those moments.

So to his point, I think that it is important that people understand the Holy Spirit and work with it, use it. But I also believe that people need people. And so when people come to him, it is them going to good counsel. And so he's being Nathan for the people, right? And so whether they go to a pastoral counselor, their pastor who maybe isn't a counselor, a peer counselor, a coach, a therapist, the principal of the school, we all need someone to talk to and we need it at different levels.

So if someone is dealing with severe depression, the Holy Spirit can do anything, God can do anything but fail. But I've worked with people whose depression is so deep and so physical that none of the things that they're doing is working. And if it's between therapy and medication or their life, I want them to get therapy and medication. I think God wants them to get therapy and medication.

As my husband always tells the church, people pray themselves through school. If you are shunning therapist or you don't want to take your diabetes medication because God's going to heal you, your healing may be coming through that doctor, through that medication. Your healing may be coming through that therapist. And so for people who need more help psychologically, it is more appropriate for them to work with someone who has studied the field and who has the tools to teach them to use the tools that really, he's right, are already inside of them.

Brian Perez: Who was it in the Old Testament who didn't want to go bathe in the water for his Namaan, to be healed from leprosy? And sometimes entering into the water, and the water might be therapy, might be medication. God might be saying, "I'm going to use this thing. I don't need to, but I'm going to."

Dr. Jackie Mac-Harris: That reminds me of being in supervision. Everybody knows I'm a recovering emotional avoider. And as a new therapist, pre-licensed trainee and associate, most of my supervisors told me that I was not showing up. They would ask when they would watch video, "Where are you? You're not showing up in the room. You're not connecting with your client." My answer was always, "Well, therapy's not about me, it's about them."

But I could not do what it was they were asking for. I didn't understand it, it didn't make sense. And then one of my supervisors, Robin Bettenhausen, asked me to pray and imagine myself sitting in the lap of Jesus and ask Jesus why I have an issue with feeling emotion. And in supervision, I said, "Okay." And in my head, I said, "That's crazy. I'm not doing that."

And this went on for maybe another six months or so and but I did keep praying about it, but I hadn't actually done what she asked me to do. And then one day I was in a session, it was a termination session, and it got very emotional. By the end of the session, me and the client are both sitting on the floor crying. I was recording, and so that was of course the video that I shared in supervision and I thought I screwed up.

I blew it. And she's watching the video and then she looks at me and says, "There you are." And I'm like, "You want me to do that? Like I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that every week." But before that session, I had finally sat in Jesus's lap and asked Him what was the issue with emotion and He showed me some things. And I didn't even realize it had opened anything up until my supervisor said that that's what was happening. Because I thought that was something I would never do and so I'm like I totally screwed up. I don't know what button I pushed, but it gave both of us waterworks. So tell me how not to have that happen again. And that's exactly what she was looking for.

Dr. Alice Benton: That story even fits what we were talking about with Warner, that the Holy Spirit may have been nudging you to connect better with Jesus and with your clients, but it was through the person of the supervisor who said, "Try it this way."

Brian Perez: Good conversation today on New Life Live, and we'd like you to join, so give us a call at 1-800-229-3000. We're going to be here for the rest of this hour and all of next.

I recently spoke to a gentleman who was talking about how he was upset with his pastor because he was going to a church, maybe he's still going to this church, I don't remember, but his pastor was advising him not to seek therapy. And this guy had problems with he says he was an alcoholic and a sexaholic and he wondered, he started doubting his own salvation because he's thinking, "Wait a minute. All these other people are Christians. They don't struggle with these problems, or at least he didn't think they did."

He was like, "How come God took away that desire and everything from them but not from me? Maybe I'm not really a Christian. Maybe God has forsaken me because he's obviously not helping me, so maybe he's not in my life." And so he wound up going to Alcoholics Anonymous, SA, and he got healed. And so now he's dealing with the hurt he feels from the pastor who told him, "No, don't do that. It's not necessary."

Dr. Jackie Mac-Harris: Such bad advice. As a pastor and a therapist, I've always found it frustrating. I've heard it in church too before I became a therapist. "You just have more faith. Where's your faith? Read more scripture." And what I was finding as I was working with women before I went to school was they were doing all the things and all they were hearing is, "I'm bad. I'm not good enough. I'm not a real believer. I'm not a real Christian because they tell me to do these things. I do these things and these things don't work for me, so I must not be good enough. God doesn't really love me."

Pastors don't realize that that is what they are saying. And so to tell someone to not go get therapy sounds very much like an ego issue to me. You want to be the one to make him better and you told him what to do and if he just does it he'll be better. But if I'm doing work with you and it isn't working and your life isn't changing, I'm going to refer you out.

Whether it is to Dr. Alice or to a medical provider, we have to send people to the experts. And so for him to tell him not to go to therapy was malpractice as far as I'm concerned. I've also worked with people whose pastors have told them not to marry the person they were proposed to, only for them now to be in a marriage that they don't think is the right marriage for them because they didn't marry the person that they wanted to marry.

Men and women of God have to pay better attention to what it is they say out of their mouths because it leaves a mark. We used to say sticks and stones will break your bones, but words will never hurt you and that could not be further from the truth. Words leave such a trail of damage and to tell someone who is struggling with alcoholism and sex addiction to not go and see a professional to get help is just cruel.

Brian Perez: Calling it ego, that was very interesting and it makes so much sense because I mean we could say that the pastor's intentions were right. If you looked at the pastor you wouldn't necessarily say, "Oh yeah, it's your big ego that made you do this." I mean their intentions were right, but maybe not right.

Dr. Alice Benton: It may very well be that they had a poor experience themselves with therapy, but that'd be like me having a bad experience with one teacher and telling my kids you're not going to school because I know how bad it can be. Or a bad experience with a pastor: "Don't go to church because it can be so bad." One bad egg should not spoil the whole carton.

And so I think it can also be a fear that therapy's so new-agey, and it can be. Or therapy is just about validating and not ever challenging a person. It's just, "Your parents are totally at fault for you, you poor victim," and keeping a person in victim mode. Therapy has a bad rap that way and some therapists might do that, but good therapy should bring about a stronger, more loving, more free and generous person. That's what good therapy can do.

"Just pray harder" is really poor advice. It could sound right because just between me and God, shouldn't we be able to fix all this? Well God certainly can and sometimes He does, but usually He sends us to other people to get that fixing done.

Dr. Jackie Mac-Harris: A few years ago I fell and broke a bunch of things. The night before that I had just been praying and being thankful that I could do everything for myself. Like I literally prayed, "God I'm so happy I can shower myself, I can wash, I can do everything. I can take care of myself. I do everything I need for myself. It's just such a good feeling."

Because I work with a lot of people who are family caregivers, and so I was just seeing the need of having to bathe your parents and things like that. And then the next day we went roller skating for my daughter's 30th birthday and I fell and broke my leg and my shoulder and my arm and dislocated the shoulder as well.

Brian Perez: Is there anything you didn't break?

Dr. Jackie Mac-Harris: The left side. Totally broke the right side.

Brian Perez: Pulling off a triple Salchow? I mean what were you...

Dr. Jackie Mac-Harris: I was just trying to come off the floor. They were calling for an advanced skate. I am not an advanced skater, so I was trying to come off the floor and there was a woman standing there and I went around three times and they didn't move. And so the third time I was like I'm not getting caught out here. So I went to and they still didn't move and when I went to push back, my foot got stuck underneath me and back I went.

So there goes not having to ask for help. So there's the very next night where my husband is having to help me shower. And I was sitting there just in tears going, "Okay God, I know you see me. We didn't have to go this route. You could have just told me Lord, you could have just told me. I would have been perfectly fine with that."

But also I had also prayed that night for God to relieve my pain. I'd had severe pain in my right shoulder and I just was at my wit's end and I was just I was skating because it would take my mind off of pain. It was the one activity I could do and not feel pain because I have fibromyalgia. And the fall fixed it.

I promise you I have not had pain in my shoulder since I got up off the floor. It was dislocated, so I had to pull it back in and then I had to go to hospital and go through all those things. But literally from the time I got off the floor I didn't have pain in my shoulder. And then after the surgery I found out there was a lot of bone spurs. I had seven bone spurs in my shoulder and some bursa and so the doctor got to fix it all up. It was much messier than he expected. So the surgery took twice as long, but I have not had pain in my shoulder since.

Dr. Alice Benton: Our God so badly wants us to have a healthy dependence on Him and other people, but we want to do things on our own. We want to be independent and self-sufficient. And our culture glorifies that and I have that same struggle so, "Lord please teach me a different way other than the major injury way." But not that way.

My mom was so good about helping and taking care of me. A friend of mine drove me around for three months. Everybody had to do everything for me. My husband had to cut my food up because I didn't have my right hand. And it was very humbling as a person who is the oldest and the boss. It was tough to have to need help and the emotional avoider who never wants to ask for help. My favorite thing is that I'm independent and I can do it for myself. "I got it, I'll be fine, I'll do it." So it was definitely a learning experience, but it was good. It was good to feel loved and cared for.

And so I'm grateful that God gave me that time and people would say, "Well God was trying to sit you down, you're doing too much." And I just don't see my God as punitive. I think God is an opportunist and He took that opportunity to heal me and teach me some things.

Brian Perez: So pastors, you're really a gatekeeper for the sheep in your flock. And if you have concerns that therapy is not helpful or holy, please call us so we can talk that issue through with you. For sure. We're going to be in the studio for another hour. We would love to talk to you pastors, leaders, whoever. If you've got an issue that you're struggling with we definitely want to talk to you, so give us a call at 1-800-229-3000. God bless you guys. We'll talk to you next time on New Life Live.

Guest (Male): Thanks so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember, we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to newlife.com to find out more information. And thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing and we're so glad that you're here.