New Life LIVE

Voiceover: Welcome to the New Life Live podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's Word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: How is everyone doing? This is New Life Live and I'm your host, Brian Perez. We're going to be in the studio and on the phone with you for two hours today. So what do you want to talk about? No question is off-limits. The only thing between you and progress is fear. Don't let fear win today.

Call 1-800-229-3000. My fabulous co-hosts today are clinical psychologist Dr. Jill Hubbard and licensed marriage and family therapist Chris Williams. Chris, you're finally out of confessions, right?

Chris Williams: No, I have a storehouse of confessions. It will last us for the next 40 years. I love it. As I like to say, I'm a very gifted sinner, and so I resonate with my need for Jesus. But in all seriousness, here's my confession today. Brian, I can be in a really nasty or gnarly, vindictive bully.

Brian Perez: You? The nicest guy I know!

Chris Williams: I know, people who see my sweet and kind exterior demeanor. But there are certain things that have been a pattern throughout my entire life. I have been kicked out of high school basketball games when I used to play because of certain aggressive behavior that I would display in moments.

Brian Perez: Interesting. Things we didn't know about Chris Williams.

Chris Williams: There is this part inside of me that showed up this last week. Something happened within our educational world that went against my younger son instead of for him. I'm fairly protective of him, and it really triggered my Papa Bear.

I immediately, in my anger and frustration, went to what my wife would refer to as the nuclear option: blow everything up. There are certain people I know in the world and certain levers I know how to pull and certain things that I can utilize my power to move the needle from a real bullying, aggressive, angry position.

Now, conversely, my wife was telling me, "Take a step back, let me work on it," and she took a much more kind, measured, and reasonable approach. You can guess which one would have worked better.

Brian Perez: Hmm.

Chris Williams: Yes, the wisdom of my wife. She addressed this issue that was of concern for us from a kind, generous place, and she got the results that we wanted. I was coming at it from "I'm going to expose everything, I'm going to take legal action," all of these sort of things from a very aggressive, angry bully pulpit. I don't think that that would have gone well.

Brian Perez: Right. So she took it to the next level.

Chris Williams: She did from a very reasonable, kind, and generous perspective without sacrificing truth, without sacrificing the things that needed to be taken care of. The conviction here is really what we see in Proverbs and Ephesians 4: the anger of man does not bring about the righteousness of God.

We are called to pray for our enemies. In Matthew 5:44 and Romans 12:17, it says that we're not to repay evil with evil. Ultimately, the wisdom of James 1 is that we can all use this in our world today: be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry.

My wife used this approach where she listened, figured out what the problem was, was slow to interject herself, and slow to become angry. The resolution was a win-win, not a win-lose. God's economy in kindness and generosity, in measured, reasonable, trustworthy relational processes—I'm not saying it works 100% of the time, but it always works better.

Brian Perez: You have got a wise woman by your side, that's for sure. We will be back.

If you download the New Life app, that is the easiest way to listen whenever you want, wherever you are. 1-800-229-3000 is the number to call for the next two hours on New Life Live. We heard Chris's confession at the beginning. Chris, what else were you going to say?

Chris Williams: One more thing about my confession. This is important. There are only two emotional experiences in the Bible that get warnings and a lot of boundaries: anger and fear. My response was out of anger and fear. You may be struggling with this. I struggle with it.

There is a webinar coming up on fear and anxiety. If fear and anxiety are running your life, it is coming up April 2nd. Get online or get on the app and sign up for that today. I can tell you from personal experience and from practicing therapy over the last 20 years, without a doubt, fear and anger mess us up more than any other two experiences.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: A lot of times men go to anger, but what is underneath it is fear. Most of the time.

Brian Perez: So if you're angry and you say you don't have a problem with fear, maybe think twice. Especially when you want that vengeance, Chris.

Chris Williams: I know. There was a fear of missing out for my son. You're right, there was a fear underlying it.

Brian Perez: You can also get more details about the webinar by texting the word "Webinar" to 28950. We'll send you a registration link and a tips sheet. Let's go to the phones now. 1-800-229-3000 is our number to call. We have a couple of calls from California to start us off. Here is Ray in Hawthorne, who listens to us on NewLife.com. Welcome, Ray, to New Life Live.

Guest (Ray): Thank you for having me. How are you this morning?

Brian Perez: Doing well, thanks. What's going on?

Guest (Ray): I woke up and got a text about navigating anger in divorce. My desire is to find out how to navigate after divorce from a narcissist. I'm struggling because I want to make sure that I'm walking in forgiveness, but I just remember all the stuff that I've gone through, being gaslit and hit and different things that were happening to me.

I'm just trying to navigate through that after three years of being divorced and 16 years of marriage. It just keeps haunting me. I remember all the bad stuff and I do have some anger. I was listening to you guys on the radio about anger being slow to speak, quick to listen, and slow to wrath.

I find myself lashing out out of anger when people ask me about my wife. I go into too much detail and it just riles me up again. I don't like that place. I don't like who I'm being and I just want to move on with my life.

Chris Williams: That makes perfect sense, Ray. The Gospel of Luke shows us two things that Jesus does over and over that are central to his life and Gospel. One of those is forgiveness, and I think that's really important what you're looking at today. But alongside of that, you'll see in the Gospel of Luke that forgiveness never happens apart from healing.

Healing and forgiveness are always happening together. You have been hurt, wounded, and ruptured in this relationship. So part of your journey of discovering greater forgiveness and acceptance and moving on is doing a little bit deeper work on the wounding and the hurt that you're still carrying from that relationship.

Guest (Ray): I see.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Ray, 16 years is significant. It's a chunk of your life to be in that relational dynamic. When you're married to a narcissist, before you put your finger on it or even afterwards, it's like you're constantly fighting to exist. You're fighting for your personhood because it's constantly discounted and devalued.

Everything gets twisted and projected out. You have a lot of "not me" experiences, like "Who are they talking about?" or "Who is she talking about? That's not me." But it gets put on you. Divorce in and of itself is not an easy thing to get over. It takes time and a lot of talking through it.

This is where, when your friends become weary, we therapists can step in because you need to talk about it and look at who this person is. It is hard to wrap your mind around the fact that everything really is about them and they don't really see you as a person. We get glimpses and we think there's a mutual person in there, but there really isn't.

Chris Williams: We get formed in the image of their narcissistic lens.

Guest (Ray): Does a person being molested affect this? Because I know it all came out after she told me she was molested as a child by a family member. That is when it just got worse because she exposed it. At that time, she thought I was supposed to fix her. I told her I am working on myself and I can't fix you.

It became even more to where she told me I was always wrong and she was always right. She would verbally say some things that would have me thinking things about myself. I was a very confident person before I got married, but she just took all that away to where now my confidence and self-esteem are challenged because I'm allowing that.

Chris Williams: Ray, you can feel how fast and furious it is on the inside there. This is really where the contagion of shame happened in your relationship. She was carrying a lot of shame and she was putting it on you and forming you through the lens of her own shame.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: And also the trauma. When you've been traumatized, you've been devalued and dismissed. She is projecting that out, and it's kind of like you make this vow of "never again." Then you can see others as the perpetrator.

Chris Williams: What happens in close relationships is that we take on the shame that they're putting on us. We take on their image of us. The healing process is not nebulous or undefined. The more that we talk about it, the more that we get accurate reflectors.

A good therapist shows us a mirror of accurate reflection in who we are and who we are not. When we take on things that we are not through a traumatic relationship, over time we're allowed to take it off and say, "This isn't me, this is not who I am."

Dr. Jill Hubbard: You have to sort through what is me and what is not me and do some rebuilding. Ultimately, forgiveness becomes a little bit easier and a lot more clear because you want to unhook from the person. It's a process of grieving and letting go, and sometimes it's a long process.

Guest (Ray): I did sign up for the April 2nd webinar. I'm ready to move on with my life, but it's just been really hindering me because I don't want to transfer that anger onto someone else. I thought I forgave. I pray for her. She's even got my son under her belt.

He's not her son, but she offered him a car and now he's detached from me. He told me I need to get my act together because I've abused all the women in his life. I've never done that. We haven't talked in about two years.

Chris Williams: Ray, I want to encourage you with what I call the long game, meaning that your son is eventually going to be attracted to what is safest to him. Unfortunately, right now, that's probably the car. He's being paid off.

But ultimately, it's going to be his need for his dad to be in close relationship with him. The healthier you get, the greater your magnet of safety is going to be for him.

Brian Perez: Glad you've signed up for that webinar, Ray. We've also got a Take Your Life Back course coming up in just a few weeks. That is a 12-week course that begins the first week of May. You can find out more at NewLife.com or by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE.

Here now is Gigi in Huntington Beach who watches us on Facebook. Hi there, Gigi, thanks for calling. How can we help you today?

Guest (Gigi): Good morning. This was not planned, but obviously God planned it because you guys came up on my Facebook and I pushed the button. I started talking to the lady and she ended up saying, "Well, then let's put you on the line."

I'm calling to bounce off what the gentleman before me was talking about. I too—although he's way ahead of me—I just started this race. I just separated from my husband, unfortunately with an emergency restraining order. I'm disabled due to a severe car accident from 24 years ago.

I've become a motivational speaker and I was working with youth ministry and started doing urban youth ministry before I got injured. I continued to persevere in ministry and then started doing ministry with disabled people and continuing working with kids. But I'm not here to share my resume.

Unfortunately, as I got married and found my husband, I kind of feel like I married one of my kids growing up. He has a background and I always told him, "God doesn't look at where you came from, it's where you're going." He was in seminary like me and so we were going to start church planting.

As I got married and had a child, it's like what one of my psychology teachers says: little by little, the white walls start turning black. One of my friends pointed out some things to me and I said, "Oh, I'm not abused." And she's like, "You know what? I was your daughter and I knew." I said, "What do you mean by that?" She goes, "I told you a lot about my life but there's some things I haven't told you."

Brian Perez: So what's your main question for us today, Gigi?

Guest (Gigi): Now that I have filed an emergency restraining order, it's now become permanent and I'm six months into this. I'm now kind of looking at where else to go from here. I am on medical leave recovering from surgery. I'm just healed so I'm going to start getting back into work.

But one of my friends said, "Gina, don't start back too soon. Don't pursue your Master's degree maybe, take an easy job." She said she divorced a long time ago and remarried happily, but it's going to get really messy. She said I haven't started the divorce yet and I don't want to start too soon.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: You have some wise friends that are giving you a warning that this is not an easy process, so you're going to need time to sort through the divorce stuff. You don't want to take on too much at once, right?

Guest (Gigi): Right. I'm also a single mom now and I'm going to be needing money. I haven't even gotten alimony yet or child support. He's required to pay bills, but he's starting to do power and control by not paying things.

My attorney for the restraining order and my divorce attorney both say they will usually make a provision and give you a temporary amount for spousal support before it's finalized. They don't just leave you. He's required to pay tuition because she goes to a private school and he is required to pay for rent.

I'm just kind of asking, where do I go from here? I'm looking for a counselor, but I don't have a lot of cash flow so I can't afford a $150 hourly rate. I'm looking for help and that's part of my process.

Brian Perez: We'll talk about it when we come back here on New Life Live because it is time for us to take a break. But we've got plenty of time for you to call in with your question, your dilemma, or your struggle. 1-800-229-3000 is our number to call.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Gigi, I know you wanted to get your story out, but I was asking what to do next. First of all, on a practical level, you are just getting into this. You've been separated and you've got the restraining order.

Your friend is wise in telling you that there's more to come, but it's hard to see how long that path will be. It's really important that you work with your attorney and let them outline what's going to happen. They usually grant temporary funds because divorce drags out and takes a long time, and you can't live on nothing, especially if you have been out of work.

I would actually advise not to get back into work too quickly because spousal support will be based on that. They will give you what they think you should be bringing in and base your support around that. But if you're too quick to make all your own money, then you don't really need support.

As a single mom, you can't do it all. Practically, that's one step. You need support around you, and I'm glad to hear you have friends. But you need to pause and listen to those friends. They're telling you not to get back into full-time work too soon. I have a feeling it's hard for you to sit still.

You sound very active and constantly pursuing things. And yet for yourself and for your child, you need time to process all this, to not be full of anger and reactionary, to seek the Lord, and to have time to meet with people who can support you.

In terms of therapy, it is a good idea to get into therapy when you're going through something so difficult. A lot of people have difficulty financially because therapy is a luxury. So there are centers and places. Churches often have resources for lower-fee counseling. Universities that have counseling programs will always have a counseling center or most do.

Chris Williams: My very first site was First Christian Church Huntington Beach. I am not sure if they still have the counseling center, but they do it for either incredibly low cost or pro bono. They meet you where you're at. First Christian Church in Huntington Beach could be a great place to start.

Brian Perez: Gigi, thanks so much for your phone call today. 1-800-229-3000 is the number to call. 84 days into 2026, you might be feeling defeated about not keeping your New Year's resolution to lose weight. Well, you might be focusing on the wrong thing.

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Phil is listening to us on Sirius XM Channel 131. You're a truck driver, so you may not even know where you are right now. Do you have an idea what state you're in?

Guest (Phil): I do. I just picked up in New York and I'm heading to California. I'm in Pennsylvania now.

Brian Perez: Okay, well, thanks for taking us along for the ride. How can we help you?

Guest (Phil): How do I deal with my older brother with an inheritance dispute?

Chris Williams: What's the dispute?

Guest (Phil): Mom died on November 4th, and I've had a hard time with it. It's been difficult. I was very close to my mother. Four weeks later, my wife's mother passed. So, both moms. I went back to work, but I pulled back from some of the responsibilities of dealing with finances.

I left it with him. We're co-trustees for her trust. The problem now is that it is a 50/50 split. There are two of us and he's older. I want your read on this issue. I understand what he said, but I think it's a power play more than a real thing.

He told me he will give me X amount of dollars, but he's going to hold back a certain amount of money for fees that need to be paid. When I ask him what the fees are, he won't tell me. Then he threw another caveat out about something that was done for me last year, so he feels it's fair to hold back money this year.

Chris Williams: Phil, I'm so sorry. I can hear the amount of grief that you're still carrying. We would want you to be able to get a lot of care and guidance for that grief first and foremost because this is a very significant loss in your life. You and your wife need a lot of care through this season of it.

Going back to your relationship with your brother, that's what I want to focus on. Over and over I've seen that trusts break trust. When family members fight over money, the love of money is the root of all evil. It's because we look at money as our ultimate solution to all of our problems. So it becomes too important; in fact, it takes priority over relationship.

I don't know what your relationship is or has been with your brother, but I would want the quality of connection and trust that exists between you and your brother to be maintained as much as humanly possible. Since there seems to be some untrustworthy behavior regarding the inheritance, I would recommend this.

Go to your brother and say, "We have very different ideas about how and when this trust should be split up and how these funds should be utilized. I want to honor you, I want to honor Mom, and I also want to honor myself in this process. Let's get a third-party legal mediator to help us navigate how these funds are distributed. That way we can protect our relationship and our brotherhood apart from haggling over the details of the trust."

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Setting that above, because a lot of times siblings see things differently in families. They can harbor resentment and unfairness. Sometimes people use this to level the playing field, like "You got more good stuff from Mom, so now I am going to equalize it with money."

People try to work out relational difficulties through the money because it's the last thing you have from a parent. That is not the best arena. Let's elevate the relationship. Your brother may balk at that because then hiring someone takes a little chunk of money, but I think preserving the relationship should be the priority.

I have seen people that no longer have anything to do with their siblings because of this. Especially so close after a person passes, it's like "This is a piece of Mom, this is me holding on to Mom." We misconstrue it to be so much of what it isn't.

Chris Williams: Fair is where pigs go to get ribbons. I was counseling a family with this last week. The parents were trying to make everything fair. I told them to stop because everyone's idea of fairness is going to be different. That ledger is never going to work out. It doesn't mean that you're not trying to balance things out, but trying to get this equalizer for all the things just doesn't happen. It puts the emphasis on the wrong focus: who's getting what material possessions. That's not it.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: And often parents don't put things in place and then say, "Go equalize it as you see fit." There are legal ramifications for not executing it correctly. You have to follow those. So that's why it is good to get that legal advice too.

Brian Perez: Phil, thanks for calling in today. We have a tips sheet that we're going to put in the show notes called "12 Steps to Recovery from Grief." This will definitely help you and your wife during this time. We pray that things get worked out and resolved between you and your brother.

Every day at New Life, people reach a breaking point and they call us for help. Because of our faithful monthly givers, our 99 for the 1 partners, hope isn't funded for just a moment, but for the whole year. New Life is ready to respond when the cries for help come in.

I'm inviting you to join this special group of monthly givers at any amount. I'm a partner, Jill's a partner, and Chris is a partner. Wouldn't you like to be a partner too? Be part of what God is doing through New Life. Call us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE or learn more at NewLife.com/9941.

Mike in Los Angeles listens to us on NewLife.com. Welcome to the show, Mike. How can we help you?

Guest (Mike): We're in the middle of a divorce. My wife wants me to do whatever A to Z she needed me to do because she says, "I need you to do this," even though I tell her it's unhealthy. She says, "Nope, it's got to be unhealthy to get healthy, and this is what I need from you."

Should I do it? That means no phone, don't go anywhere, don't talk to your family, don't talk to your friends or our friends. Don't go to church without me, don't look at the stage at church, etc.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Okay, so you're in the middle of a divorce and she's asking you for complete allegiance to her above and beyond anyone else.

Guest (Mike): Correct. 14 months ago, she was dealing with some betrayal from a year before we met. We have been together 16 years and been married for 10. I left something out about who I was with a year before I met her. It finally came to a head 14 months ago in therapy because she feels like there are lies and things I am keeping from her.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: This was before you met her, you dated someone?

Guest (Mike): Yeah, I just slept with somebody a year before we even met. I didn't even know her.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: You neglected to share that with her.

Guest (Mike): Correct. And then there are other lies here and there. I'm working on that with my therapist regarding fear, anxiety, and insecurity. But in our relationship dating, it was somewhat toxic. I went into pornography as an outlet, and then when she caught me, I stopped. I haven't seen pornography in 15 or 16 years. These things are affecting her. Even though it was a year before I met her, it's hitting her hard.

Chris Williams: Mike, let me jump in with a question. Is there any chance of reconciliation in the marriage?

Guest (Mike): I am all for it.

Chris Williams: No, but is she? She committed to the divorce process.

Guest (Mike): It is at a standstill right now. She filed it, but nothing has happened.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: She is wanting you to show her. She filed for divorce, but we know people change their minds all the time. She's looking for a reason to change her mind, it sounds like.

Guest (Mike): She says, "Show me you're invested." And I am invested in transparency. I am willing to open my phone, you can look at it any time you want. I have Covenant Eyes on it and everything blocked on my computers. You can look any time, but in a healthy way. We go to therapy and she's like, "No, listen to me."

Brian Perez: So your main question is how do you deal with her wanting all these directions? Does he have to follow through on everything?

Chris Williams: There are a lot of nuances in here, but she is stuck in control as a form of trying to build trust. In betrayal trauma, that makes perfect sense. My recommendation for you is that getting unhealthy to get healthy makes no sense.

Getting healthy requires health built upon itself over time. You may need to look at some very strong boundaries that allow you to move forward with health and transparency. You want to move away from deception and deceit, but you can't become unhealthy because your wife can't become healthy.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Your goal is the same—to come together—but the method needs to be different.

Before the break, I was saying your goals and your wife's goals to hold this marriage together are the same. Those are good goals. We don't like divorce; divorce has its own set of problems. If you can work through this, you can have a stronger marriage. But the method may need to be different.

She's going into high control and doesn't want any influence other than hers. I think you should lean into her instead of being resistant and defensive. Don't get into the weeds about what's okay and what's not okay.

Lean into her and say, "I get that you are so hurt and wounded by me and that I have broken your trust. I want to do everything possible to rebuild that trust. Let's get some people to guide us because both of us are broken in this. Let's do this the right way so that we can say we've done everything possible to save our marriage."

Work with your therapist on walking through ways to reassure her. When she starts to want to be controlling, she is either feeling disconnected or afraid. Lean in, touch her on the arm, and say, "Okay, what are you needing from me right now? I can see that you're afraid."

If she feels the connection with you, she won't need to control every action. Usually, the problem is that women feel disconnected, and so they start grabbing at everything around them.

Brian Perez: Mike, thanks for your phone call. Let's go to Savannah, Georgia. Here is Serena, who listens to New Life Live on a podcast. Hi there, Serena, thanks for calling in.

Guest (Serena): Hello. Thank you so much for taking my call. I am a Club New Lifer and so thankful for all that you do and how you pour into us.

Brian Perez: Thank you for saying all that. How can we help you today?

Guest (Serena): How can I support my sister and my nephew with some healthy decisions in terms of social skills? My nephew is an adult, but he is special needs. From the time he was in elementary school, he was diagnosed with different things. Some said he had a low IQ or was on the spectrum.

They have lived in more than one state, so they have gotten different diagnoses over the years. Presently, he is unable to drive. He is high functioning, he has a job, and he is very outgoing. He has been recognized at their church.

Chris Williams: Serena, let me jump in really quickly for time's sake. What is the primary problem or fear right now that you're calling about in regards to their relationship?

Guest (Serena): He has a bucket list of things that he wants to do, which usually includes traveling. My sister takes him to various games in other states. He's 32 at this point. He wants now to go to New York City and he told my sister that he is working now with his therapist so that he can go to New York City by himself.

He doesn't want her to go with him. My sister is livid about that. He sees me traveling a lot when I come visit them because I don't live in the same state. He understands that on some level, but he somehow is not able to process the idea that it's unsafe for him to do it.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: He's wanting some autonomy. That's a hard call because of course your sister would have a lot of anxiety. Being empathetic to her position as a mom of a special needs kid is important. No matter that he's 32, they never grow up per se when someone isn't fully launched.

At the same time, kudos to him for wanting to be more autonomous. Maybe even a compromise of having someone other than Mom go with him—like a friend—because it's kind of lonely going by yourself on vacation.

Chris Williams: I also think we can measure this out. What are the safety protocols put in place? The fear that he's going to get lost in New York City is reasonable.

Could someone go with him and then allow him to explore areas of the city on his own for the next eight hours while he has his phone on him?

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Right. Like "I am in the city, but I'm not with you."

Chris Williams: Yes. You have full autonomy, you have a way to get a hold of me, and you have safety protocols put in place. That way, independence becomes an incremental thing for him to figure out and for Mom to feel comfortable with.

Maybe you start with a trial run in a safer city. Preserving the relationship should be the priority. It is never easy for a mom. That's part of the growth and grieving that your sister has to do. Come alongside your sister and support her as she works through his greater independence.

As parents of special needs children, we tend to revolve our lives around that. When we see that moving out, it creates a grief and a crisis for us. We now have to reorganize our own lives.

Brian Perez: We have a tips sheet available called "Six Tools to Ease Anxiety." We're going to put that in the show notes, Serena, so you can forward it to your sister. Maybe she can join us for our Freedom From Fear and Anxiety webinar that's happening on April 14th. You can find out more by texting the word "Webinar" to 28950.

That is all the time we have for this hour of the show. Paul, Patricia, and Jane, stay on the phone. We're going to talk to you next. God bless you guys. Thanks for listening to New Life Live.

Voiceover: Thank you so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to NewLife.com to find out more information. And thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing, and we're so glad that you're here.