New Life LIVE

Brian Perez: Congratulations, you made it to the weekend. This is New Life LIVE, and I'm Brian Perez. Sure, it's a Friday the 13th weekend, but if you're superstitious, we want to help you become regular-stitious, and maybe eventually just a little stitious. I'm here with great friends, Doctor of Marriage and Family Therapy, Sherry Denham-Keffer, and Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Dr. Jackie Mack-Harris. Ladies, trust you're doing well. Jackie, what's on your mind to start us off?

Dr. Jackie Mack-Harris: What is on my mind is reading. I did a little research, and I learned that there was a study done by Lifeway, and it showed that 56% of believers, people who profess Christianity, say that they've read the Bible. So what's the rest of us doing? 32% said they read it more than once a week.

I started thinking about how important reading is to me. I want people to know that reading helps us. It doesn't just inform us; it is something that helps to form us. We are constantly being formed and shaped by what we consume. What we read shapes what we believe, what we believe shapes what we think, and what we think shapes how we live our lives.

I want to encourage people to think of reading, rather than something boring, think of it as a way to support your emotional health. Reading slows down the nervous system. It helps people step outside of their stress. It introduces new perspectives and solutions, and it helps organize thoughts and feelings.

Then reading gives us language for emotions. It helps us understand the language of those emotions, and it helps people feel less alone. As a child, reading took me on adventures. It got me out of some of the chaos, and then it provides tools for problem-solving and resilience.

Sometimes the right book gives us words for something we've been feeling but didn't know how to name. Scripture is not just something we should do because people tell us to; it's not just for information. Scripture is for formation. Scripture regulates the mind and heart, it reminds us of the truth when emotions are overwhelming, and it reframes our suffering.

Scripture says to get an understanding in all your getting. It tells us to covet knowledge and wisdom. I encourage everyone, if you're just not a big reader and not really interested, try just starting with the Psalms. Or if you don't know how to read the Bible, start at the beginning and read it to the end because it's a story. If you just pick pieces out of it, you don't understand the full concept. You don't understand everything that's happening in context.

I just encourage people to start reading. Start reading slow and see how it changes your life. The Psalms give us language for grief, fear, praise, anger, and all these emotional things that a lot of times Christians don't believe we have anything to do with. There is a lot of great work out there that really is designed to make our lives better. Let's take advantage of that, especially in this world we're living in right now. The news cycles and social media, there's just so many quick bites that we're taking and it's not necessarily making our bodies better or making our lives and relationships better.

Brian Perez: So read.

Dr. Sherry Denham-Keffer: And for someone like me, I have a learning disability, so reading is hard for me. Guess what I've just been connected to? Audible. I had a friend of mine show me how to get onto Audible where you can download books. You can download the Bible.

Dr. Jackie Mack-Harris: I've got over a thousand downloaded Audible books. That's mostly how I read. I commute.

Dr. Sherry Denham-Keffer: That is so amazing because I can just be driving somewhere, hit the Audible, and I'm learning and listening and it goes in and I'm remembering it.

Brian Perez: Thank you for sharing that. If you're new to reading the Bible or maybe you've had a hard time reading it, we've got an article on our website for you at newlife.com. It's called "A Beginner's Guide to Reading the Bible." We'll put it in the show notes as well, but we've also got a lot of resources that you can read there, lots of articles and books that you can purchase and get on that journey to reading, taking in good books, the Bible, of course, and a bunch of other books that we've got there at newlife.com. Check that out.

Let's go to the phones. We're going to begin with Pete in Washington, DC, who is listening on WAVA. Welcome to New Life LIVE, Pete.

Guest (Male): Good day to you all. This question and topic comes up a lot on New Life. I just wanted to direct this question to Dr. Sherry, who wrote *Intimate Deception*. It is on the topic of pornography. I heard in past shows where Dr. Sherry might say these things that they see on the web, they're heinous, they're awful. Full stop, that's correct.

Full disclosure, although I don't struggle with this in my life right now, I think any man who's reached my age has seen it. I wonder, however, when other men who have been helped in my men's group hear that word "heinous" or something like that, I think we go to a place of shame.

I think also the answer to the question why do men view this, being built differently, I think it's kind of like Ringling Brothers Circus. There are some men that get trapped in this and continue to view. So my aside is, I wonder if it might be more helpful and has been helpful to other men to say, ultimately when you view this, it takes you away from a covenant relationship with your wife. If you want her to be treated like the apple of your eye, then you should avoid doing this simply for the benefit of creating safety around your wife. I'm sure you're prolific in your writings, but has that approach ever, have you ever thought of that particular approach with men?

Dr. Sherry Denham-Keffer: Well, love taking the time to call in, Pete. Thank you. Thank you also for the fact that you are working with other guys and that you're in a process of your own recovery. When I heard you, I think the thing that stood out to me is the concern that when I use the word "heinous" to describe pornography, that that instills shame into the hearts of men. While you didn't say it, I'm wondering if you would say to me, "Sherry, that word is very shaming and it harms guys that look at porn." Is that what you would say to me?

Guest (Male): Correct. Dr. Sherry, that is correct. So I'm wondering in breakthrough with others if rather than looking for the why, that with your depth of experience, if you would turn them to the benefits of what you because I do have a decades-long relationship, covenant relationship with whomever you're in, and I think that might be effective.

Dr. Sherry Denham-Keffer: No, this is where it would be amazing to have a conversation, and I'm going to do it here with you in the moments that we have together if you're open to it. My goal in talking about pornography as being heinous, and if you'll kindly let me read from this book, *The Healing Church*, I just want to read to give a little context because I think it might make sense.

When I talk about it, I say there's no condom for the internet. Sadly, it's not a secret. The porn industry hosts an endless array of mortifying acts that are active, forceful, dehumanizing, and very dark. The fingerprints of a sworn enemy appear all over this unending pit. Abaddon, better known as the angel of the bottomless pit, Satan, the deceiver, a lawless one, the father of lies, tempter, and the thief are common names for the spiritual force of darkness whose aim is robbing our souls. What better way to assault the church, the bride of Christ, than through pornography, a stealth mission of mass destruction aimed at taking out women and children first?

My words were written in that chapter. I understand that even those words might cause shame. I actually think that shame is not all bad. You and I may disagree on this. I think there is shame which is harmful, which has to do with your identity, which would basically rub your nose in it, make you wrong and bad.

Or there's shame that's healthy shame for being ashamed. It's being ashamed at the level of darkness that is involved within pornography. Most wives, Pete, honestly haven't even looked at what's in these porn sites. They just haven't. I don't blame them. They don't want to go there. They don't want to acknowledge it.

But sadly, in my research, I have had to go there. The kind of acts that are done to women, to children, to teenagers, the rough sex, it's just heinous. It's dark, it's evil. So I don't feel bad for using a word to describe what I see. I do feel like the enemy of this world, Abaddon, Satan, is behind all this. I love what you're saying is, "Hey, when you look at it, it takes you away from the covenant." That makes a lot of sense. And yet that doesn't seem to fix the problem. Just talking about a covenant doesn't seem to wake people up. It doesn't seem to give people enough information to look at the damage that's done because of pornography.

Dr. Jackie Mack-Harris: What I hear in the covenant piece, which I do think is a gentle way to have that conversation, but what I hear is you need to do this for this other person. So now we have an external solution to an internal problem. This has nothing to do with her. This has everything to do with him.

Once again, I hear the woman is the one she's the receptacle and she's what he needs to be thinking about when in actuality, he's got some stuff that's happened to him. Being able to say what it is, that it's heinous, that it's vile, that it's disgusting, and that be shaming means that we need to take a look at those things more so than we don't want to hurt their feelings.

Sometimes we need the truth. A lot of times in church, there's so much toxic positivity that we're not dealing with the reality. It's like having a conversation with someone and being really upset and having them tell you to fix your tone. Well, tone is the sound emotion makes, so you're telling me you don't really want the truth of what I feel. You want me to make you feel good while I'm trying to convey to you I'm upset about something.

I think that's what's happening here. It is for some of us, we view it as heinous. People who enjoy looking at porn or are addicted to porn have to be able to tolerate hearing that in the same way that that wife has to tolerate finding out and dealing with the broken pieces of the marriage. I don't think that the men have to be gently coddled into recovery because what they have done is violence.

It's not a soft thing. It is violence for themselves, for their mind, and for the people who are being objectified. I say that so strongly because I've heard too many men acknowledge that when they think about women's bodies, they don't really think about those parts as being attached to a person. That's a problem.

To try to then say this is a covenant, what about the times that it's not a covenant relationship? What about the people who aren't in a covenant marriage and they're still harming themselves by these addictions? I'm much more concerned about the individual making changes for himself and women as well. People don't realize how many women are addicted to porn and struggle with the same issue and were exposed to it as children and still wrestle with it. There's the same problem. They're viewing heinous acts as well. It changes how you view intimacy and partnerships.

Dr. Sherry Denham-Keffer: Pete, I love this conversation. I think there needs to be more of these. If anyone's interested, get a copy of the book *The Healing Church: What the Church Gets Wrong about Porn and How to Fix It*. I made a graph. It's called the traumatic relationship impact of pornography. There's six ways that pornography harms us: impact on our spiritual faith, our identity, our love and relationships, our personal health, our sexuality, and there's emotional injury and psychological abuse. That's all a part of porn use.

Brian Perez: And that's just for the user.

Dr. Sherry Denham-Keffer: That's the impact on the partner, on the significant other. That's on the other side of finding out about the porn. That has nothing to do with women who are sex trafficked or caught up in this and women that are objectified and children. I've worked cases as a foster worker where I've had children on my caseload that were used in porn rings. I've seen this.

Dr. Jackie Mack-Harris: I'm working with Orange Wood transitional-aged youth right now and that's in some of the stories. They've been rescued, but they know that they left other kids behind and kids that are smaller than them. They're still living years and sometimes decades beyond that experience. They're still living with the horror of it.

Dr. Sherry Denham-Keffer: Thank you, Pete, for your bravery and your work. It's awesome.

Brian Perez: We do take comments here on New Life LIVE. So thank you, Pete, for calling in. Let's go to Denver. Here is Mary, who watches us on YouTube. Hey there, Mary. Thanks for calling in to New Life LIVE. How can we help you?

Guest (Female): Well, I just need some guidance on how to deal with a relationship. It's like a 40-year relationship with a lady. We had kids about the same age. Now everybody's grown and we're in our 70s. I really value this relationship, but she's not dependable as far as meeting at a restaurant at a certain time. I guess it's very real in my head right now because last Friday I was going to take her out to lunch because it was her birthday. We set up where we were going to go and I texted her the time, the place, the website or whatever.

At the time we were supposed to meet, she wasn't there. So I waited 15 more minutes. Then I called her phone and she says, "Oh, I'll be there in 15 minutes." She thought it was a 30 minutes later than, she didn't have the time right. Instead of, I mean, I guess I just feel like she doesn't own what she's doing. She says, "Oh, I forgot to adjust the time." Not, "Oh, I really messed up."

Brian Perez: Has she always been like this throughout your 40-year friendship or is this recent?

Guest (Female): Yes, I have put up with this for 40 years. This time I just went home saying, "I'm done. I cannot do this. It's just too painful. I cannot do this anymore." If I did have to end the relationship, I want to know how to. I want some closure or renewal or something. We've talked about it before, she and I, because this has happened before. We've talked about it. We know we're different personalities.

Dr. Jackie Mack-Harris: Mary, I feel for you. I really do. I, however, though, am your friend. So I am the friend that is notoriously late. Time works different inside of me. It's abstract. I don't move in time the same way as others. I recognize though that that is frustrating to people.

So what I do is I just accept the fact that you're going to be upset and you get to be upset and you get to choose if you want to be in this relationship or not. The idea that there's something she could do to change it after 40 years is the definition of insanity, right? Doing the same things and expecting different results. Well, this is who she is.

I'll tell you a little story. Several years back, my niece was getting married and we were all so excited. She had been dating this guy for like 12 years at this point. I get to the dress fitting a half hour late. I am freaking out. The dress fitting is about an hour away from my house in no traffic. Of course, this day there is extra traffic.

I'm late. I get there at 4:30 and I go running in and they're not there. I'm like, did they finish already? No, they hadn't finished yet. So I asked and they were like, "Oh, her appointment's not until 5:30." She told me to be there at 4:00 actually. I get there 4:30. I'm freaking out. They tell me it's not scheduled until 5:30. I literally went and sat outside the store and cried because I felt so loved because I understood in that moment how important it was to her that I was there that she lied to me about what time I needed to be there.

About 15 minutes later, her mother comes running up, my sister, who is always later than I am. I say, "Wait, stop, stop. We're not late. She lied to us. We're not late. It's okay." She plopped down next to me and she was like, "Whew." About 5:15, here comes my niece and our daughter, my daughters, and everybody's walking up and they see us and everybody just falls out laughing.

I felt so loved and seen and known and understood. I just hugged her because I realized it mattered to her that I was there. So she's known me her whole life. She knew what she needed to do to make sure that I could be there on time. I work really hard to be at funerals and weddings on time or I won't come in. I'm not coming in after the bride. I'm not going in after the family at a funeral. But I struggle with time and time management. Everyone who knows me knows that that is an issue.

There are places I know I need to be on time and so I will put in an extra effort, but a lot of times I've done what I need to do to be there on time and something still happens. I share that personal bit of my life with you, Mary, just so that hopefully you know that I don't think that your friend is doing this to intentionally hurt you. I think that this is how she moves in the world. You've known her for 40 years. You know this is how she moves in the world. It's not personal.

But I also know that there are people who feel disrespected when I show up late. I own that. They get to be mad at me. I'm not going to make an excuse. I'm not going to tell them why I was late. I'm not going to try to make them make me feel better about it. "I'm so sorry, it won't happen again." I'm not going to do that because that's just not true. They're upset, you have every right to be upset. I'm really sorry that I didn't get here on time. And then let's do the thing that we came to do. That's just my perspective as a person who is time-challenged.

Guest (Female): Well, I had other things that I had planned after this get-together so I just said, "I am not staying. I'm leaving." And I was mad. I'm mad. You do this to me. One year I went to pick her up and she had forgotten all about that we were going to go out to lunch. I mean, I picked her up.

Dr. Jackie Mack-Harris: I know, it's very, very frustrating. When you have something else to do, like you don't crush your day in order to stay there and wait on another person. She's got to be responsible for her part as well. You were generous to call her after 15 minutes because you could have just said, "You know what? You're not here, I'm not doing this anymore," and go on about your day. I do believe you have every right to feel disrespected and upset about it.

Dr. Sherry Denham-Keffer: Mary, I have a question. I'm just curious and I'm going to take this a different direction just because I think Jackie is probably the best person who could have just advocated for your friend. Right. But if this friend is worthy of keeping, you might just do exactly what she did and tell her to come 30 minutes earlier. I was thinking about that, but I was like, I don't think Mary could do that because Mary can't lie. I already knew that about you. It would be a joke. We'd laugh at it. Well, but I don't think you can lie.

I started getting really curious about you. I was noodling by myself as I was listening. I want to know if Mary grew up in a home where there was a lot of rules, like a lot of right and wrong, black and white rules. Or if Mary grew up in a home where there was some chaos or secrets or some caretaking of others that was required.

Guest (Female): I grew up, I was the third of four kids, and I did feel kind of neglected. My parents were busy. My older sister was very, she was the cheerleader, she was the straight-A student, she was the organist at the church. I wasn't quite any of those things. I've dealt with depression throughout my life.

Dr. Sherry Denham-Keffer: Oh, it helps so much. Mary, that helps so much because you really grew up not feeling seen, heard, delighted in, not feeling like you mattered. Those are traumas of omission. Traumas of omission, there's two kinds of traumas: traumas of commission, those are the acts that happen to us that shouldn't happen to anyone, that's the physical abuse, the sexual abuse, but traumas of omission, those are like the thousand cuts of a knife. That's when we're not seen, delighted in, heard, when somebody really isn't as interested in us. And then my goodness, Mary, you've got this sister that gets all the attention, right? The cheerleader, the boys, parents oohing and aahing, and here you are just wanting to be loved.

I wonder if, and sometimes people with your kind of trauma will say something like this: "I will do anything I need to do to get somebody to love me. I will do anything I need to get someone to love my heart." And so what happens is we tolerate all the years of being missed. And then we make requirements on others, which that would make sense to be here on time. But I don't know, has your friend ever heard the more vulnerable part of your heartache where it's not really about time management? It's really about "I don't feel like I matter that I don't matter to you enough." Have you guys ever talked about that?

Guest (Female): To a certain extent. I mean, we've been through life together and hard marriages and a life...

Dr. Sherry Denham-Keffer: But have you ever told your friend, "When you don't show up on time, when you're 30 minutes late, or when you don't remember that I've planned something, do you know that takes me right back to how I grew up in a family where I didn't really matter? There was neglect there." Have you ever said it that clearly?

Guest (Female): No.

Dr. Sherry Denham-Keffer: Okay. So what's coming up in you right now?

Guest (Female): I feel like you're hearing me.

Dr. Sherry Denham-Keffer: I am. I am. There's a thousand tears in there, sweet one, because you've been so missed, so unseen.

Guest (Female): So what do I do?

Dr. Sherry Denham-Keffer: Well, guess what? You are doing it. You're starting the work. Those tears are grief. They've needed to come out. There's more in there, Mary. This is just a start. That someone could be with you and lovingly wonder about how long you've been missed. I have no idea how your friend like Jackie might respond to your tears, to your vulnerability, and to the truth of your life.

She might see you or she might completely minimize you. But this is the truth. You need someone to hear you. If this friend, if you can be this vulnerable with her, tell her, have her listen to this show. Mary, that would be the first thing I would do. I know that's going to feel a little scary because you're going to be like, "I talked about you on a radio show." That's how much our friendship matters. 40 years, I talked about you. And then Dr. Jackie is you, and she was explaining a bunch of things, and then Dr. Sherry talked to me and I just unzipped and I started to cry because I don't think you've ever heard how much this hurts me.

I'm going to ask if we get together again that I'm going to give you a five to 15-minute window, but that if that happens more that I just because my heart can't take the hurt, I'm just going to need to put our relationship on hold so that I can get in and do some deep work and I can get in and try to figure out how to find a friend that maybe will be able to understand my heartache and my pain. I hope it's you. I hope it's you. I hope you'd be willing to understand the heartache that that causes me. And I'm going to do my work, I'm going to get some therapy around this.

Dr. Jackie Mack-Harris: And you know, Mary, when I said there are certain times and places where I work extra, extra hard to be there, that kind of conversation would produce that. Having you say, "I feel like when you don't show up, you don't put it in your calendar, you don't mark the day or the time right, it's like what I said didn't even matter. You didn't even really want to be here. That's what it feels like."

If that's not true and you because that's what somebody will say, "That's not true. I don't feel like that." Well, but that's what your behavior is saying to me. And then share this video, have her watch the YouTube, have her listen to it so that she can hear your story and hear your heart. If she can't accommodate, if she can't make the shift, then it changes how you spend time with her. That's okay. It's okay for you to choose you. It's okay for you to recognize that it hurts your heart too much to keep being let down by this friend.

Hopefully, the friend can make accommodations and shift things in her own world. When I make a doctor's appointment, I don't always put it in at the right time. I always make it earlier. 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 30 minutes, so I don't know. I'm trying to get there at that time but I've built in some cushion for myself. I have come up with those things in my 58 years because this has been something I've been aware of since I was a teenager. I've known this was a challenge since before I went into the military. This person may not have done work and accepted this piece about herself, and so this conversation I think could be really helpful and healthy. I'm going to be praying that you guys have a conversation and she's able to hear you and make some adjustments herself so that she can show up for you better as a friend.

Brian Perez: Mary, thanks for calling in. It's because of you, our viewers and listeners, that lives are being changed every day through New Life. Your support brings real hope through daily radio broadcasts that speak truth and healing into hurting hearts, transformative workshops that guide people through deep healing, connection to counseling and support for those ready to break free from pain and shame, and biblically-based resources that offer clarity, encouragement, and direction.

Every gift helps, and you can give online at newlife.com, by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE, or by texting NLM to 28950. To make a difference on a monthly recurring basis, become a 99 for the one partner. You can learn more at newlife.com/9941. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll talk to Carly, who's calling us from Seattle, Washington. So stay on the line a little longer, Carly. Can't wait to talk to you here on New Life LIVE.

Let's talk to Carly, who is in Seattle, Washington, watching us on YouTube. Hello Carly. Thanks for holding and thanks for calling in. What's up?

Guest (Female): Good morning, sir. My question is regarding EMDR that was suggested. A brief backstory was that in 2017, my father was sick and didn't come back from a hunting trip. I spent five days with Search and Rescue and was on the team that found him, and we found him deceased.

I was spiritually hemorrhaging. I knew who I was to my earthly father, but I didn't know who I was to my heavenly father. So I was just broken and shattered. I went through a lot of psychiatry, a lot of psychology, a lot of medication, and EMDR.

Within the last few years, what I personally learned was that it was a form of hypnotherapy where you give over part of your mind of the control to the therapist, but that can lead to ungodly soul ties or an open door to a demonic opportunity. It's an alternative treatment. I did ask the Lord for forgiveness if I was out of line. I didn't know if it was about Jesus and I repented. But it was a secular therapist. It wasn't a Christian therapist. I didn't know, does it matter if it's secular versus Christian? Was that opening up a door back then?

I personally don't think I would do it again just with my conviction with the Lord. But you guys are professionals. I'm not. I'm learning, and I was curious. What do you know? What has the Lord showed you with EMDR? Do you know something I don't? I would love to know.

Dr. Jackie Mack-Harris: I have some thoughts. I don't believe that it is giving over any bit of control to the therapist. Does it make a difference if the therapist is Christian or not? I think that's up to the person. Some of us have our own beliefs, and so it might change the work if you believe that working with a secular therapist is less effective or puts you in some sort of danger because then that becomes your belief. What we think and believe becomes connected to how we behave. So we act based on what we think and believe, and that includes in the healing process.

EMDR is a modality that helps the right and left sides of the brain connect. It was formed by a woman who learned that when she's out walking or running, she does her best processing. When I think about EMDR, when I did my training, it reminded me of being in the military because cadences are being called while you are marching. So you're instilling rules while you're marching, the right and left side of your brain connecting, right, left, right, left, right, left. So it really is a neurological process.

I don't believe that it's hypnosis. You're never in a state of hypnosis. I've studied both and I've done both because I wanted to know what it was people would be experiencing. EMDR in my experience was very different than hypnotherapy. Again, in both cases, you need to have a therapist you trust.

EMDR opens up some lockboxes of trauma and it just allows the mind to freely explore the different images, and hopefully, connect the person with those images and with the sensations in their body so that you can start to have a more congruent experience so that what's happening inside matches what's going on outside.

If it doesn't work for you, that's fine. But I've seen real healing for people using EMDR to address a traumatic experience and move them through it. I personally am very relational and so I don't do EMDR only. I'm more of an attachment theory therapist, so my EMDR is going to be woven into the attachment work. So we're going to be looking at some things that would have happened before the trauma of finding Dad. What was your life like before that and then let's move through to the present day. I hate that you had an experience that left you feeling like you needed to apologize to Jesus. I don't think you broke any rules. Remember we're not living in that legalistic world. Jesus came that we would be free, and that freedom is in also choosing the type of therapy you do to heal.

Dr. Sherry Denham-Keffer: I have a thought. Thank you, Dr. Jackie. Carly, I have no words for how heartbroken and shocked you must have been to be on that search and rescue team and to find your dad in that state. That breaks my heart beyond measure. That is a huge trauma, Carly. Devastating. And you're still in heartbreak over it. There's still tears in there.

You mentioned something about you know who your earthly father is, but there was something you said about God. Can you just say that again?

Guest (Female): I was sharing how I knew who I was in my earthly father, but I didn't who I was for my heavenly father. So my identity, it was my foundation was off. It was really idolatry, that's truly what that was because just when I lost my dad, I'm like, well everything, you know, it was just kind of compiling.

Dr. Jackie Mack-Harris: Carly, are you saying that the love you had for your father and the way in which your identity was tied to him as his daughter was idolatry?

Guest (Female): I think what I'm trying to express is I was so wrapped up in my earthly father and I knew who I was more in him than my heavenly father. So when my dad passed, I lost part of myself and my identity in the Lord, my foundation was off.

Dr. Jackie Mack-Harris: You're doing it, you're learning. I just didn't want you to go away thinking that the love you have for your father was somehow wrong.

Dr. Sherry Denham-Keffer: Because it was deep. It was deep. And so when we have a trauma like you had finding your dad in that state, along with that comes a spiritual and faith trauma. It causes us to question God at probably the deepest level, like "God, why did you allow this to happen? Why wasn't he found? Why didn't you protect him?"

What's really weird is I'm almost hearing a bit of a lack of protection around you, like "Did I do something wrong? Is God... this idea of am I open, and did I have a soul tie, did I make myself like your protector's gone." I'm like, huh, that's interesting because that may be a part of your spiritual trauma.

So I want you to stay on the line, continue to do some work, we're here, we're praying for you, we grieve with you but you know there may be some more work to do in that area.

Brian Perez: Our caller's name was Carly. If you want to keep her in your prayers this weekend. Hey, God bless you guys. We'll see you at church on Sunday and talk to you on Monday.