New Life LIVE

New Life: Welcome to the New Life LIVE podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's Word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: Did you wake up today feeling exhausted? No, not from last weekend's time change—still trying to get over it—but because you keep saying yes to everyone? Well, then call in to 1-800-229-3000. We'll help you set boundaries and learn how to say no.

Welcome to New Life LIVE. It's Wednesday, and we are so glad to see you. I'm Brian Perez, and I'll be joined in the studio for two hours today by clinical psychologist Dr. Alice Benton and Dr. Jim Burns, the founder of Homeword. Let's find out what's on Jim's mind before we get to the phone calls at 1-800-229-3000. Hi, Jim.

Dr. Jim Burns: When you said, "say yes," I thought about a quote that a man named Jack Hayford said to me. I asked, "What's the secret to your leadership success?" He said, "I had to say no to good things to say yes to the most important things."

What are the most important things? That's my relationship with God, my relationship with my wife, my kids, and his grandkids. He has time to do other things. He was the pastor of a mega-church and the president of a denomination—a busy guy among a whole bunch of other things. But you're right; that's a big deal.

What I have on my mind is marriage today. I know some of our finest listeners are singles, and I love singles. They're full of life, and they don't realize how hard it is sometimes when you're a single mom trying to raise kids. They do a great job, and I tell them that all the time. But I want to think about marriage today.

We get a lot of calls about marriage, and it's always marriages that are in big trouble. But one of the things we probably don't talk enough about is being proactive when it comes to building intimacy. We have physical intimacy. As soon as us guys hear the word "intimacy," we think of physical intimacy, and we go there.

We have emotional intimacy, and whether people understand it or not, if they listen to the program, we talk a lot about emotional intimacy and emotional connection. Emotional intimacy typically leads out before you can have healthy physical intimacy. That's my thought.

But I want to talk about something different that I'm sure everybody in New Life believes, but it's spiritual intimacy. I think the least developed area of intimacy is spiritual intimacy. I'm going to get real personal. Kathy and I are in ministry. We got married many years ago, and we would pray together sometimes. I was in discipleship groups that I led with men, and she would be with women.

One day, we were asking our mentors, "What do you do for spiritual intimacy?" They said, "We spend 20 minutes a week." The bubble in my head said, "Wow, that's kind of wimpy. You're a spiritual leader." We were pulling out of the driveway because we talked about a lot of other things, and Kathy said, "Hey, I want to do that spiritual intimacy thing that they do."

I asked what they do, and they said they read scripture, they read something inspirational, they talk about it, and they pray. That sounded like something we do all the time with other things. But Kathy and I made a commitment to spend 20 minutes a week, and we did that many years ago.

I'm not saying that every time it's been good. We've even had an argument in the middle of our spiritual intimacy times before, like, "How are you feeling about this? Well, I feel like you..." whatever. But I'm telling you that I think some of the anointing that takes place, at least in the Burns family as in our marriage, with our kids and with our ministry, happens in those sacred 20 minutes.

We call it our closer time. I know some people don't have a relationship with their spouse where they can do that. So spend five minutes or just focus quietly together. But there's power in that. That's spiritual intimacy, the least developed area of intimacy with a lot of Christians.

Dr. Alice Benton: We have to push through the dull and awkward seasons of spiritual practices that don't feel like they're getting us anywhere. But couples that do what Jim is talking about have the lowest divorce rate. It's protective of the marital bond.

Brian Perez: I think, too, that for some people, even 20 minutes might be too much. Start small and if you can only do 20 minutes a month or something, at least you're starting, and then you can ramp up to whatever it is works for you guys. All right, give us a call at 1-800-229-3000.

New Life: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE. Download the New Life app for the easiest way to listen to the show on the go and at your convenience. You can connect with other great New Life content there as well, including the Every Man's Battle podcast. 1-800-229-3000 is the number to call us today here on the show.

Dr. Alice Benton: I was just thinking about that 20 minutes. As it sounded like so little to you, Jim, at first, when you actually try to sit down and carve out that time in your busy life, 20 minutes can seem impossible.

It's okay to start as small as your life allows or as your tolerance level allows. Especially if one of the spouses—and I find that it's often the male who has not had as much experience in doing devotional time and sitting down with the Bible—maybe he can only tolerate a couple of minutes.

It's like when you go to the gym, which Jim did today, and you have to start with what seem like embarrassingly small weights. But in order to get to the heavier, more impressive weights and the heavier, more impressive muscles, you've got to start out really small with what you can tolerate and build from there.

Dr. Jim Burns: That's actually for our own spiritual disciplines too. When I was at Princeton, there was a guy from Korea who said he gave God 10% of his time. I did the math and thought, "That's two hours. I'm not spiritual enough at all." I think God sometimes just says, "Just check in with me."

When we do that, I'm thinking of you as a busy mom now, but busy moms, how do they find that kind of time? I think you're right. I think maybe you don't start with 20 minutes; you start even smaller. It is hard for some people because they say, "My husband doesn't feel comfortable in that," or they don't want to pray out loud. That's fine. Just hold hands and think about the kids, pray about the kids, or as a woman, you pray, and he doesn't have to pray. But do those kinds of things, and you feel closer.

I'll leave with this because we have questions to answer. I have good friends who wrote a book called The Five Sex Needs of Men and Women. Do you know what the fourth sex need of a woman is in this research? Fourth sex need is spiritual intimacy. It's not on the list for men. That surprised me when I read that book. I checked in with my wife, and she said, "Oh no, praying together is sexy."

I've never thought of praying together with Kathy as sexy. But it's interesting that even different people look at that differently. Kathy jumped at that years ago, and I kind of crawled into it thinking, "I'm already doing Bible studies. I'm already doing this stuff. Why do I need to do this with her?" But it does bring you closer and more intimate. Periodically, it gives you that moment of a conversation that's not 20 minutes now; it's a continuing conversation that goes for the rest of the week because we brought it up at that time. Or it puts us together praying for our children. That pulls you together.

Dr. Alice Benton: I think a lot of Christian women are waiting for their husband to be the spiritual leader. "God wants him to lead, not me. So I'm going to wait on him." But I think many women hold the awareness of the spiritual need for the family. So we might have to initiate and even model for our husbands, hoping that they will then take the initiative over time. Ladies, if you want more spirituality from your husband, give him the gentle invitation to join you.

Dr. Jim Burns: I say amen to that. And make sure it's gentle. This is where we have to be careful not to preach at them. I have a book where I talk about adult children, and I say unsolicited advice is taken as criticism. But if you are unsolicited saying, "Why aren't you doing this? You, you, you," then that husband is not going to want to join you. But if you say, "Hey, here's a cool book. It'll take us one minute. It's called Jesus Calling. Do you want to read this together? I'll read it." There you start.

Brian Perez: I think too there's such an expectation for Christian men and women. For women, it's the ideal to be the Proverbs 31 woman. And then for the man, to be the spiritual leader in the house. You've got to lead your children in Bible study and pray over them and everything. It can become overwhelming for both sides where it's like, "I don't know if I can do this."

Dr. Jim Burns: Exactly. And a lot of us have a lot of shame around that, anxiety, and some guilt. Because what happens when we didn't pray, and then our kids act out if they're in the home, or if they're adults, they violate values or something? Then we go, "We should have. We could have. If we would have prayed more, they would not be..." or "If we would have gone to church every Sunday twice, then they wouldn't be in the place they're at." We blame ourselves for a lot of things. Really good parents who are good parents and they're doing their best, they have so much shame because their kids are sinners just like the rest of us and they aren't going with the program. And the same with marriages too. "If I was only this or I only did that." It's hard.

Brian Perez: But then we get the calls too from people who say, "I did all the things that I thought were right. I prayed every day. My spouse and I were on our knees and, you know, two hours a day we gave that 10%," but even their kids go sideways.

Dr. Jim Burns: That's true. It's not the norm, though. There are principles that if you do certain principles, there's a better chance that your kids are going to do better. There's a better chance that you're going to have a better marriage. If Kathy and I didn't work on the principles of a healthy marriage, we would not be married. We're two high-maintenance people from dysfunctional families that showed up thinking this was going to be easy because we're now Christians. We looked at each other, especially those first couple of years, and went, "What did we do?"

But then we learned biblical principles, really, on marriage. And we just kept working on it, and we looked back a couple of years later and went, "Wow, we're probably going to make this thing." Then we'd have a bump, and we'd keep going. Today I look back at it and say my marriage to Kathy is one of the treasures of my life, but I didn't say that at the beginning. I also didn't have the understanding. That's why it's so important for people to listen to New Life, because people tell us all the time, "You're discipling us in these different kind of programs." Well, we're not thinking about that when we're answering a question, but when people hear it over and over again, we have to be learners. You read books, and who are your mentors? Read a book on marriage every year. Read a book on parenting every year. We've got tons of stuff in the library here at New Life that people can take a look at. It's good, healthy material, and then the next year read something else. But just keep being learners. You're a learner, Alice.

Dr. Alice Benton: I am. I love reading.

Brian Perez: 1-800-229-3000 is the number to call us today here at New Life LIVE. We're going to be in the studio for two hours. We can talk about marriage; we can talk about just about anything that's going on with your life, in your family, or at your job, at church, at school. Call in 1-800-229-3000.

If you can't call in when we're here in the studio like today for two hours, you can send your questions in to us in other ways. You can send us an email or you can leave us a voicemail, and the instructions on how to do that are online at newlife.com/radio. Here's a question that was submitted online via email. It is from Rose in Philadelphia who listens on WFIL.

The question is, "What do I do when my husband has separated from me in his heart but plays the role of loving husband and father?" Here's the back story. "I've been a dedicated listener for over 10 years, ever since Jesus saved my life. My husband, who has listened since your early days, introduced me to your daily broadcasts and I've been a donor to the ministry in the past." Thank you, Rose.

"Recently it has become clear that my relationship with my husband is unmistakably broken. Although we've been emotionally distant for a while, the situation is much more serious than I initially realized. What I sense with more clarity now than ever is that my husband has most likely separated from me in his heart and mind.

But for our children's sake, and perhaps even for convenience, he plays the role as loving husband and father. I can tell he has separated from me by his outbursts of major frustration and anger at seemingly minor things that basically tell me, 'I can't stand you anymore.' Then he composes himself and we move on.

Not surprisingly, I'm devastated. We've only started to confront this truth in our very brief conversations this past week. It's hard to discuss things with our three young children, little sleep, and very small support network. He is the strongest believer in Christ that I have ever met, and he was and is a major inspiration for my own walk with Christ. Yet we have hurt each other so deeply that we are not able to reconcile. It's hard to explain more detail without unloading everything, so this is my way of sharing the problem but being concise." Alice, what would you say to Rose?

Dr. Alice Benton: Rose, there's a difficult but powerful question that you can and should ask yourself. Why is it difficult to be close to me? Even if the problem your husband is dealing with has little to do with you, because we all have sharp edges at times, you may be unknowingly contributing to his distance.

So think about things like when you're upset with him, are you critical, frequently critical? Have there been times where you've withdrawn from him and been cold towards him? Or do you have a disappointment you've carried about him? These are some of the normal things that we wives can hold on to, and even unbeknownst to us, we can be difficult for our husbands to draw near towards.

Now, it may be that his distance has much more to do with him than with you. But if you're willing to approach him with the humility of knowing, "Hey, this thing about me, this characteristic of mine, I know can be tough." One of mine, Rose, is my anxiety and my fear of scarcity. So I know I can have a tension about me when my husband spends on our children, if I think his spending is unnecessary.

I can be so over the top about this, Rose, and I may not say much, but he walks into the house and he knows that I'm going to be checking the shopping bags, that I'm going to be wondering about the receipt. The poor man is a very honest man, he's a frugal man, but my fear can leak out at him in subtle ways that make it difficult to be close to me.

Now, I've got good motivation; I'm just trying to take care of the family finances, but I can do it in a way that is unhealthy. So wonder that about yourself and bring one of those characteristics to him to say, "What's it like for you when I'm tense about finances?" Then I would have you give him gratitude that even though you can be tough in those ways, he still is acting as a loyal husband and father.

I know you think it's a pretense, but I want him to be praised for the effort he's putting into it. And then I'd have you give him an appeal to intimacy, meaning, "I miss you. I miss the closeness that we used to share. Are you interested in doing some new things with me for us to learn how to be close again, to bridge this gap between us?" See if those initial steps soften him, and then what is his answer? Is there some willingness in him to make some changes with you?

Dr. Jim Burns: Great input, Alice. I want to give you a phrase, Rose. I'm really positive about you because the way you worded this and you still have respect for your husband with his spirituality and so many good things. You might be in a stage that's tough. In the years of marriage with younger kids, you lack sleep. We are so busy that sometimes we get distracted.

Here's the phrase: untended fires soon become nothing but a pile of ashes. What I mean by that is you've got a fire, you had a fire with your husband going in terms of romance and life and all that, and then you would never change this, but these three bundles of joy come into your life and they sometimes wreak havoc on intimacy in a marriage.

What I'm saying is you've got to tend the fire within you again, and you do it now while you're juggling. I'll just tell you something. All research says 69% of men say that when a baby comes into the world—and you've got three—but when a baby comes into the world, 69% of men say that their marital satisfaction goes down. They don't want to lose the child, of course, but there are some other things going on, some competition now. 49% of women, I just read this, so I'm up on those statistics, 49% of women say that their marital satisfaction goes down.

What that's saying isn't it just means we've got to rekindle it and be more focused than ever. Are you having serious fun? Are you still willing to go out on a date every week? If he's not willing to initiate it, then you initiate that date. Romance, are you rekindling romance? Romance is going to be a big thing to him. Sometimes you're too tired; I get it, I understand. But those kinds of things, the simple little things, bring this back so you don't have to deal with the deeper stuff that could be there. Alice asked a great question at the beginning of it.

Brian Perez: Rose, thanks for submitting your question online. You can do the same at newlife.com/radio. You'll see the email address or the phone number that you can call to leave us a voicemail. But if you are ready to call in right now, we're going to be here for the rest of this hour and all of next. 1-800-229-3000 is the number to call to speak with Doctors Jim Burns and Alice Benton. Teresa, you're next.

New Life: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE. There are many kinds of groups in the world: small groups at your church, hobby-focused groups, and so many others. So you might be wondering if a Life Recovery Group is right for you.

Life Recovery Groups are not casual support circles. They're structured communities that work through a proven 12-step framework anchored in scripture to reach beyond surface-level change and address the full spectrum of addictive and unhealthy behaviors. We believe everyone can benefit from a Life Recovery experience.

But here are just some of the common issues that lead people to Life Recovery Groups: substance abuse, sexual addiction and pornography, food addiction and eating disorders, gambling and shopping addictions, codependency and relationship dysfunction. If you're looking for a safe place to shed the shame and get raw accountability, visit newlife.com for information on connecting to a community that won't let you settle.

We've got over 735 groups meeting online and in person, so connecting is easy. Again, go to newlife.com or call 1-800-NEW-LIFE.

Dr. Alice Benton: One of the things that convinced me as a loner to try a group finally was the idea that more trauma, more difficulty, is coming for all of us. Getting into a group now and making deposits in other people is really a safeguard for the future.

At some point you yourself will be overwhelmed, and I work with so many people who come to me in the midst of just devastating circumstances and they have no one. They wish they had gotten into a group three years ago when they weren't having major problems in their life. That just motivated me to get out of my comfort zone to go get to know other people so that I can be there for them in their troubles and vice versa when trouble comes my way.

Brian Perez: Let's go to the phones now. 1-800-229-3000. Teresa is in Nashville, Kentucky. Hi there, welcome to New Life LIVE.

Teresa: Hi. I moved several months ago to one of the great last pioneering farming communities here. I found out that these three small towns in this small valley hold court. I experienced the way they keep you or they send you out; in other words, they get rid of you.

I was really bewildered by this power hold that they have on the community, and I wanted to call you and ask how I can work through these separate small farming communities where I found some real strong supporting groups, as in churches that are very much more involved in their own church life, but in the community life, there's some strong people that pretty much hold court.

Brian Perez: What kind of things can they kick you out of the group for?

Teresa: They can actually slander you. They can say you're not accepting our trajectory in terms of the fear-mongering of AI and conspiracy theories, more like, "which side are you on politically?" and "don't go too far in your spiritual life because we don't apply that."

So it's a socioeconomic hold. If you have status, you have a bigger farm or you don't have much at all, basically they play you. I'm not intimidated by it, but I'm seeing a lot of people come and go, and I'm thinking, "My goodness, this is not okay."

Brian Perez: So what's your main question for us?

Teresa: How to maneuver through a power struggle.

Dr. Alice Benton: And you're not currently in a power struggle, but you're braced that this may fall on you eventually.

Teresa: Well, it has already with one person all of a sudden coming out of the blue saying, "Don't trust her. We don't know a whole lot about her." And it was like, "What? Did you ask any questions? Did we have coffee together how many times this last several months?" So it's basically interesting to say, "Okay, I can see it starting in my court."

Brian Perez: And you moved there to find a better life, and instead, it sounds like it's becoming difficult. What drew you to this particular spot, Teresa?

Teresa: Good question. I was working online with a family that needed help, and my field has to do with helping people through hardships. So after 10 years of working with this family very successfully, they worked very hard, I was asked to come to their valley to help, and word for word they said to me, "You could help a lot more people here."

Brian Perez: All right, well, we're coming up to a break, so we're going to continue to talk to you when we come back. Very interesting situation there for Teresa. Thanks for calling in to New Life LIVE at 1-800-229-3000. We've still got open lines. We're going to be here for about another 90 minutes, so keep those calls a-coming.

New Life: Hello, it's Becky Brown. I am so excited to launch our 99 for the one partner initiative. Every day we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression, all kinds of ways, and it reminds us of the story in Luke 15 where the shepherd leaves the 99 to go rescue the one.

We've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life, and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99 for the one is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE or newlife.com/9941. Now back to New Life LIVE.

Brian Perez: Let's continue talking to Teresa, who's listening to us on Calvary Radio in Nashville, Kentucky. She joined a farming community that looks like it's become a framing community because they're framing people and saying things about them. She's thinking, "What's going on here? How do I navigate? How do I maneuver?"

Dr. Jim Burns: Sometimes when people move to a smaller community like this, that's the kind of mentality. My parents, before I was born in California here, lived in a very small town, and you hear more of that in the smaller town community mentality. Not saying that's all bad; there's beautiful things about rural America like crazy, but you are going to get more of that.

Teresa, I have another question for you. Is this a long-term or a short-term move? Do you feel called to this community for a long term or is this a short term?

Teresa: Good question. I would say it's both because I came here for the purpose of just doing the right thing. It's not about me rescuing anybody, but just being available and being an ordinary person and just being here to see where I could participate and communicate and just do life here. I was introduced to a lot of different people out of the three separate communities, and things start to spread like wildfire when I start to integrate outside of that one particular community.

Dr. Jim Burns: Do you have a good foundation? You mentioned a church. Do you have a good foundation for you that if you step out and maybe you get shot at a little bit—I'm not talking about physically, but you get shot at by somebody or they don't trust you or whatever—are you confident enough to say, "Hey, I'm okay. I got my community back here who knows me and loves me. I'm seen."

Teresa: That's a really interesting question, and I'll say this to you point blank because this is what I was told in the church, is that we don't integrate in the community; we stay in our own flock. So I thought, "Oh, hey, so this is like, I'm in, they're not comfortable with being in other boundaries throughout different communities." I do have three mentors that I've been very close to for the last three years. They're very elderly, and I've got to be careful not to over-call them.

Dr. Jim Burns: But how great; they probably appreciate it. I think sometimes older people, they love being a mentor to somebody and they don't even know what the word mentor might mean, but they're doing it. Take advantage of that unless they're telling you to back off a bit.

The reason I asked you if it was short-term or long-term is because if it was short-term, you're here to help that family and you're here to do that, then you're not going to change that community. That's how they've been forever. If you feel that this is a part of your calling—I'm more pastoral, I'll let Alice deal with the psychological issues here—but if you have a calling and you really sense God's call in this place, and you're going to step out and you're going to start changing one person at a time, it's very simple.

You have this group in the church whom you love and it's good, and then you step out and you have coffee with somebody, and maybe that one it doesn't work and one it does work. Great, you're just going to kind of take them down one at a time, so to speak, and show love to them. That's a calling that's more of a long-term type calling.

Sometimes we are called to come and help a family. That's what you're doing. If you feel like you need to do this other stuff, remember prophets get shot at—and again, I'm not using the term physically—but people pound on prophets. If you're going to do something prophetically within this community, then you're going to have your people who are going to be the naysayers.

If you can live with those naysayers, great, but there's no easy answer. They're not going to change, quite possibly. So that means you've got to be able to have the hardened field to say, "No, God has called me to do this." Everybody's not going to buy it, but what about this one person with whom I'm having great conversations now and I am helping her?

In the scripture, it's the parable of the sower and the seed. The fact is only 25% of those seed go well; 75% get trampled on. If you're that kind of person that you could get trampled on a tad bit, talked about, all the things that you said could happen, and you can still live with that, then you're going to have great fruit. 25% in God's eyes is good fruit because that's the parable that Jesus gave.

Dr. Alice Benton: Teresa, when you said, "I'm not intimidated by it," I was in awe of that because this sounds like a pretty intimidating community in some ways. They may tend to jump more towards judgment, court, and condemnation rather than the process of investigation and curiosity. But you're not intimidated. All right.

God must have equipped you for just such a time as this, for however long you're called to stay here. So I would recommend that you attempt a one-on-one like Jim was saying with that person who's saying, "don't trust her." And not to go about it in an accusatory way, but rather with gentle curiosity of, "Have I done anything that has resulted in broken trust with you? Because I'd like to rebuild that trust if that's at all possible."

The Lord asks us to try to work things out on the way to court before we get there, if at all possible; mediate it before it gets to that point. And I think about how a soft word turns away wrath. You could go after this person to say, "You don't have any reason to spread these rumors about me." But going at it with softness and gentleness, which is something this community lacks, will probably serve you and that person well.

But I also hope you have a Plan B because if they're ready to kick people out of the community and you've now invested and even made this your home, what is your prayerful Plan B of where you will go if they kick you out? And to maintain the good strength you have, are you able to offload with a safe sisterhood, a safe couple of women who are perhaps not part of the community or people that you really deeply trust?

Teresa: I'm in the process of that, and there's many times where it had been challenged to get up and go. But I just sense the Lord just saying, "Just wait it out, be patient," and basically understand that he's already walked these steps. So he gave me the grace and the patience to let go, forgive, and just tread water, so to speak.

Basically I see the fear-mongering going on so rampantly, it's almost consuming people's attention; it's the nexus turning the communities' heads. So my Plan B is wait on the Lord, and he will show the way, but be aware and be loving because it's a tough bird out here. It's almost day-by-day, step-by-step.

Dr. Alice Benton: I just recently learned the verse Isaiah 26:3, "You will keep in perfect peace those who trust in the Lord." When I struggle with my own anxiety, it helps me to wonder, "Am I not trusting God enough?" and I hear strong trust in you, that you're able to fight any anxiety or that fear-mongering because you trust God and you know that he has you. If you don't have safe people, please consider letting us connect you with a counselor in our network or one of our Life Recovery Groups that Brian was talking about earlier.

Dr. Jim Burns: I think you're awesome, Teresa, honestly. I think what you're doing is awesome. I think it's incredibly courageous and brave. But what Alice is saying in terms of being around other people—and it may have to be online, maybe there isn't that person—maybe it's those beautiful women who you said are potentially mentors to you too.

But you have to be able to be around people when you're in a mess like this. And God says he's okay with messes. He deals fine with all of us in our little messes. When you're in a situation like this, you have to be in a situation where somebody is cheering you on and somebody believes in you and somebody is a safe person for you.

When you're in that kind of situation where you're getting potentially put down by these people or they don't like you or they want you to move, you've got to be able to say either—and again this is probably not great psychology, but—somebody needs to say, "No, you're normal. What you're going through is normal. Your fears are normal, your joys are normal."

Even more so, focus on making sure that you have that safe place, that circle of support, so that you can then go out and do work. I mean, Jesus did that. He had a circle of 12 who was all around him, and then he went out and they ended up killing him. That's not going to be your case, but he got shot down by people, but he came back to this safe place. We never think about that, but if you look at scripture, reading between the lines, he spent a lot of time with those disciples and he lived with them and he walked with them and he spent time with them and they were his support group.

Brian Perez: Teresa, did you move to this community with your spouse and children or is it just you?

Teresa: I moved here to take a sabbatical because of my family. I realized that I needed to actually get out there and do some different work.

Brian Perez: Got it. Okay, we're coming up to our break. Thanks for calling in today to New Life LIVE, and we'd love to hear whatever it is that you're struggling with. We can help you here with Doctors Alice Benton and Jim Burns. 1-800-229-3000 is our number, and we want to help you today.

New Life: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE. Many people are struggling today with addictions or trying to resolve conflict in their family or being emotionally frozen from trauma and living as if on autopilot.

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To make a difference on a monthly recurring basis, become a 99 for the one partner. You can learn more at newlife.com/9941. 1-800-229-3000, the number to call in today, and here is Walt in Durant, Oklahoma. Hello, Walt. Welcome to New Life LIVE.

Walt: Well, thank you. I've been listening to New Life for a long time, and I've called repeatedly with a bunch of problems, and y'all tried to help me. What I'm dealing with now is I need to know how to help my 20-year-old granddaughter. She's had a very rough childhood. She was allegedly molested at eight years old, and the man was convicted and sent to prison.

Then her own dad exposed himself to her when she was just a child. He's in prison now. Her mother, my oldest daughter, passed away at age 37 from a drug overdose. Now she's, quote-unquote, "married" to a woman and a man. When she was 15 or 16 years old—she was 15 when her mom died—I think it was the same year I explained Romans 10:9 to her, that if you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. She did that, she agreed with it.

But when she graduated high school, she moved out and she's just really gone off the deep end. I know she vapes and smokes; she may be doing drugs, I don't know. But when I talk to her on the phone, video chat, she's always fidgeting with her hair, her face, and moving back and forth. Admittedly, my wife and I, though we're believers, we didn't set the best example for her when she was a little girl. We had our arguments and our fights. Michaela's just had a really, really rough life. I don't want her to go down the same road my oldest daughter went down. My oldest daughter turned to lesbianism and drugs, and now she's dead at 37, and I don't want that to happen to her.

Brian Perez: So what kind of guidance are you looking for your granddaughter?

Walt: I don't know what to do. See, I'm 68 years old, I'm retired on Social Security. I live in Oklahoma; my granddaughter lives in Cooper, Texas, which is about 70-80 miles away. My problem is I don't have a driver's license right now because I have cataracts so bad that I can't pass the eye test.

Brian Perez: So how can you help her from afar? Is that what you're wondering?

Walt: Yeah, because we talked just a little while ago, and I told her I was proud to have her as my granddaughter, which I am. I told her mother—when her mother came out of the closet, she came and gave me a hug and she said, "Do you still love me?" and I said, "Of course I did."

Dr. Alice Benton: Oh, Walt, we hear your tears, and I think your heart has been breaking for years as you watched your daughter go through her struggles and now your granddaughter. Walt, I'm proud to be able to say a big part of my answer is keep doing what you're doing. Because you are showing up and loving her well, and she's taking your calls.

So there is a trust established between you and your granddaughter, even though she surely knows you disagree with some of the choices that she's making, but you're loving her. So keep doing that. And Walt, make sure that when you are loving her, when you have chances to talk with her, share that humility. "Hey, I know that we didn't make it easy on you when Grandma and I would yell when you were around."

That humility is an example of what we hope someday she can do. She probably can't yet, but you are influencing her by being a loving man of Christ in her life. And then, Walt, keep waiting on her. Because when she starts to hit some of her limits and her bottom and her struggle, I suspect she'll go to you because you're stable, you have answers, and she knows you're a healthy man.

So when she is ready to bring some problems to you, I want you to be willing to connect her with us at New Life. Maybe you'd be willing to help fund a first individual therapy session for her, and you'd be able to give her resources, like some of the good books at New Life, or the idea that she needs to get into some 12-step work through New Life Recovery. You've got the answers. So wait and be ready for when she comes to you with the problem.

Dr. Jim Burns: Alice, you said it perfectly. Walt is doing a good job. Sometimes because the actions on your granddaughter aren't what you hope, you say, "Well, am I messing up?" No, you're not. Everybody fights, so if you and your spouse had a fight, that didn't mean that your own daughter was struggling because of that one thing. It just doesn't work that way.

You actually said it. It was a very powerful statement when your daughter asked you, "Do you still love me?" What I say to people who have adult children and adult grandchildren is the bottom line when they are straying, when they are violating values, is the question she has: "Do you still love me?"

Because you're showing love, she's 20. So she could change her identity, she could change her gender identity three times in the next 20 months. She could change it, and maybe she will, I don't know. But what I am saying is when she crashes—and I'm going to tell you, she's going to crash more—who is she going to go to? She's going to go to the one who's the safest, and because you're the safest.

I suggest that you keep doing what you're doing, but I know a woman who has a twice-a-week conversation with her 18-year-old who's doing some of the silly stuff that your granddaughter is doing. Do you know how she closes the meeting? "Honey, do you mind if I pray for you?" This granddaughter does not go to church, and she doesn't have a deep faith. The granddaughter never says no.

She just says, "I just want to pray with you." Now she doesn't preach, she doesn't lecture in the prayer. She just goes, "Thank you so much for the gift of so-and-so, and I love her so much and I pray God that you would be with her, be close to her, draw her to you."

Keep doing what you're doing. You're the safe person right now. You're 68 years old; that doesn't mean that you're in it for the long haul here. So she's going to do those 20s with you present and supporting her and cheering her on. It's okay to not agree with her. You don't agree with her lifestyle. So it's possible to be connected without agreeing on her lifestyle. And that's an important... do what Jesus did. He led with love, he practiced kindness. You're doing that, my man.

Brian Perez: Your book *Doing Life with Your Adult Children* I think would be a great resource for Walt to get from newlife.com.

Dr. Jim Burns: Absolutely. And I have a new book coming out in May called *When Your Adult Child Strays: Trading Heartache for Hope*. That talks to Walt in that. It truly does. We just don't have a lot of stuff for adult children who are doing this.

Brian Perez: Thank you, Walt, for calling in today to New Life LIVE. At New Life, we walk with people through real pain toward real healing. You've heard the calls today; we've got more coming up because we're going to remain in the studio for another hour. So keep calling. 1-800-229-3000 is our number, and you'll get to talk to Doctors Jim Burns and Alice Benton here on New Life LIVE.

New Life: Thank you so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember, we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to newlife.com to find out more information. And thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing, and we're so glad that you're here.