New Life LIVE

New Life: Welcome to the New Life Live podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's Word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: Hey, welcome to New Life Live. I'm your host, Brian Perez, and I'm here in the studio with Dr. Jim Burns and Mark Cameron. Mark's a licensed marriage and family therapist, author of the book Understanding Your Attachment Style. Dr. Jim Burns is a parenting expert who's the founder of Homeward, and he's also got a new book out called When Your Adult Child Strays. I have both books here in front of me. But hi, guys. Welcome. Jim, what's on your mind to get us going?

Dr. Jim Burns: I was talking kind of while you were talking then we realized we were on the line. So I do that. It's just Jim never grows up. My parents used to say, "When are you going to grow up?" and I go, "Well, I am grown up. I'm 40, now I'm 50, 60, 70." I want to talk about creating a media-safe home. A lot of the calls we get might be helped if people weren't addicted to either social media or things like that.

I was just speaking to a group of teenagers. That's what I used to do. I love it. It was 800 kids, and I said, "How many of you think it's possible to be addicted to social media?" 800 kids raised their hands. Every kid. I actually loved the honesty that they had. Then I said, "How many of you are addicted?" and all but two. They knew they were addicted.

But when I talk to parents, they're sort of addicted too. I think it's so key that we as parents get a handle on this. Let me give you a quote by a man named Nicholas Kardaras. He's the brain expert. I'm just going to read this to you because I think this quote's amazing. He says, "Digital drugs may be even more insidious and problematic than illicit drugs because we don't have our guard up against it."

One of the things I want to say to you, whether you are in an empty nest or whether you have children still home—a lot of people call us and they still have children at home, they have some adult children—it's very important for us to create what I call a media-safe home. Are you creating a media-safe home?

One of the questions I want you to think about is technology use, either you or your family's use—is it bringing you closer together in your family or is it bringing you farther apart? Now, we talk a lot here about things like pornography, for example. Obviously, that's bringing people farther apart. That's not good. That's hurting a relationship with God. It's hurting a relationship with anybody that you spend time with.

Is it possible to create a media-safe home? Sure. Start young with your kids and guess what? My humble opinion is, don't give them social media at such a young age. When you look at people who were kind of the founders of the movement, in terms of technology, not necessarily just social media, but when you look at Steve Jobs at Apple or Bill Gates, they didn't let their kids have cell phones early.

We're probably giving our kids too much cell phone stuff. I want to talk about that for just a minute. We're saying these days that perhaps kids who are two and under, very little cell phone use. I get it. We use it to self-soothe them. You can put a cell phone, you can put Thomas the Train there, they're watching it, and now you can go about doing your stuff if you've got younger kids. It's still not healthy. It delays their ability to even have language skills.

We have to be careful. Kids are probably watching too much. Studies show it's crazy. Once they get between two to six, from six to ten, we still should only be allowing them about one hour. Now, again, by the time they're ten, they're probably online with their school stuff. But I think it's really key and important that we delay that. In fact, the average teenager... this just came out with middle school kids. The average middle school kid, they are outside less than prisoners. So parents, monitor it. Get to know your media and help kids be safe.

Brian Perez: That is a crazy statistic. Just came out. Prisoners spend more time outside than kids because kids are online, they're always on the phones. Man. What good opening thoughts here from Dr. Jim Burns on New Life Live. We're going to take a really quick break and then we'll go to the phones. Bill and Fawn, you guys are coming up and we'll see how many other people we can talk to today on New Life Live.

New Life: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: And let's go to the phones, as promised. Bill, we'll talk to you in a moment. First, here is Fawn in Lexington, Kentucky, who listens to us on the New Life app. Hi there, Fawn. First of all, thanks for downloading the app and thanks for calling in today. You're on with Dr. Jim Burns and Mark Cameron.

Fawn: Hello. Thank you for having me. I love your show. I guess you saw my question was about my estranged children.

Brian Perez: Yes, but we want to hear it from you in case anything was left out.

Fawn: My oldest son served in Afghanistan and while he was in training, his oldest brother died. He went through a lot. When he came home, even before he left, he was full of anger. Our relationship has been rocky because I always said you have to speak to me with respect and you can say anything you want to, but it has to be respectful.

Our relationship just fell apart. He called me on Mother's Day, said I love you, and then moved across country without saying goodbye. I haven't had his phone number or had any contact with him since. That was about six years ago. I've had a lot of grief and loss in the last several years. My daughter also carried a lot of anger with her, but I still had a relationship with her and my grandchildren until about 2020.

I almost didn't stay at her house that year because every time I was there, she would become abusive when the children were asleep or her husband was gone. I said I'm going to stay in a hotel this time and she begged me not to. I used my back as an excuse because I do have back issues. When I got there, it was a fiasco. I didn't say a word because I was currently in recovery and still in recovery for codependency. All of a sudden her husband opened the door and shoved me.

So I have not been back to visit their home since then. I did go to see them the next year and they met me. I did go in their home and visit, but didn't stay. That was the last time I saw my grandchildren. My husband, their dad, died the next year. At the funeral, she gave me orders: "You can come, but you're not allowed to speak to me or my brother," which was very awkward. At the end, when she gave me back some pictures, she said, "How does it feel to know you didn't get to be there when the man you say you love dies because you had an argument with me?"

I said you don't get to have that discussion with me because I was trying to set a boundary. She went home and blocked me from everything. She said, "You may not be able to speak to your grandchildren because when you call them you try to talk to me." I said no, I don't. Your children pick up there's something wrong and they say, "Do you want to talk to mom?" I'll say no, I'll say I'm busy, if that's what you want. But when she went home, she blocked me from everything.

Brian Perez: So what's the main thing we can help you with today, Fawn?

Fawn: I'm currently in a New Life recovery group on the fourth step. I'm trying to figure out... I don't feel like they're necessarily safe unless they've been doing some growing—safe for me. But at the same point in time, the ultimate heart's desire is for God to restore us. What do you think about the amends part? Should I make an effort to try to get their addresses and phone numbers and try to make an amends or just let the process play out for now?

Brian Perez: Fawn, I just have one question because I got confused in the story. Did you say that it was your husband's funeral that you went to?

Fawn: It was my ex-husband's funeral. Yes. My daughter made a comment that "How does it feel that you didn't get to see him when he died?" because he wanted me there and I wanted to be there when he died and she would not let them call me.

Mark Cameron: Oh, she wouldn't let you go. Okay. Got it.

Fawn: My stepson called me and told me he was dying, but my daughter wouldn't let me come. So I did go right after he passed because my stepson texted me at the time.

Mark Cameron: It's interesting because in the story you told us, you said that your son moved away six years ago, but he called you and said, "Mom, I love you," and then he moved away. When you say that they can say anything to you but they have to be respectful, what are you interpreting as disrespect?

Fawn: Physical attacks, like my daughter when she was mad at me because I had been helping with some financial things with them and I set a boundary and her husband and she were real disrespectful to me in my home. He said, "We're leaving. I'm not going to stay here." Then she wanted me to give them money to take care of themselves, which I had been giving them money.

I said, "I can't do that anymore." Since then, she attacked me, calling me names, telling me I was terrible at everything, telling me the only thing I was good at is being a good grandmother. So all of her attacks are about my personhood. My son is not... he's never called me a name or put me down, but he gets very violent, screams and yells at me, says, "Look at the little mama, why is she crying again?" and I said, "Because this breaks my heart, watching you suffer so much. I want you to get help." You have to know my son does use substances and has for quite some time. I wouldn't call him an addict. He's a very hard worker. He holds down a job and is very financially responsible, but he does use marijuana as his drug of choice to deal with his stress and anger.

Mark Cameron: Well, I love that you're calling about amends and it sounds like your kids have a level of reactivity. As most of us do, most of us have a level of reactivity that we'd like to decrease and improve upon. But I love that you're calling about amends. I think as you make amends, I think it's critical to be able to have the other person feel like they get heard out because you want to be able to say "sorry for" and then whatever the thing is that they feel hurt by.

So what I would say for you to do—and we often give this advice here—is to invite them to the table first, for a conversation over coffee or over the phone, whatever feels safe for them. Then ask them, "Hey, it sounds like I have hurt you. Would you be willing to share with me in a calm way how I have hurt you? I will be willing to listen. It's going to be really difficult for me if you use a lot of blaming and criticism, but I am willing to listen and would you be willing to do that?"

That, I think, is a good first step. Because if they know that you're not going to be defensive, but you're also setting some kind of boundary for them to consider their words and how they say it to you so that you can be receptive, you might end up having a better conversation and being able to hear them without this level of reactivity. When people say mean things, when they say hurtful things, when they yell and scream, they really want you to know that they're hurt.

They just don't know how to get it across to you. Now, that's not excusing mean things or people yelling and screaming, but they're less likely to do that if you invite them to a conversation and then you say that you're willing to listen. In that moment, in that conversation, I would just listen. I wouldn't explain, I wouldn't defend, I would just listen and hear them out and just say, "Thanks for sharing that with me. Can I think about that and get back with you?" Then that gives you time to create space and sort through what they did say and see if any of it are legitimate hurts or what can you take responsibility for. Then I think comes the amends piece where you come and then you may say, "I'm sorry that I didn't listen to you as well as you would have liked me to." Even if you don't feel like you did the things that they are saying that you did, you probably can find a way to word it back to them and find some kind of way to validate the hurt that they're feeling. I think that's a good way to make amends. Jim?

Dr. Jim Burns: Fawn, I hope you heard what Mark just said. Honestly, it's so healthy and right. I didn't know if he was going to say what he was going to talk about with the amends. I'm for that, but I think you do it short and sweet and don't make it about you. There are so many things you might want to say. You got shoved by your daughter's husband. That's not safe. That's not good. But in this case, I think it's time just to say what's on your heart, what you've been learning through your recovery process.

Make it short and sweet for both. We'll get to your son to try to find him in a minute. But I think that's so key. Then when they... say "I would welcome your input because I'm in a growth mode and I want to be a different person than I was when you guys were growing up." Individualize it with each of them. Then the hardest thing you're going to do—I'm asking for courage like crazy—but then just bite your tongue. Don't get defensive.

Mark used the word defensive. What we tend to do in that is we'll do an amends, and that's healthy. Then we'll ask for response from them and they'll just say very hurtful things, even more hurtful. What we do is we respond and now we're in an argument. Just say, "I really need to think about this and pray about it. I'm so sorry and sad." That doesn't mean that you're taking all the responsibility. Like he said, sometimes you have to just say, "I'm sorry you feel that way."

You don't even have to say it was different. But eventually you will. That will free up oftentimes you to have that very good conversation with your son, because you haven't heard from him in six years. The hard part is your daughter probably knows where your son is. Somebody knows how to find him. I would do the same thing in terms of the amends. Let them see you're willing to grow, you're willing to change, you're not the same person, and do it without pointing a finger at them.

Do they need some finger-pointing? Yeah, because they're not doing this healthy either and it's just continuing the process. But I think you're at a very key point in your recovery and part of that recovery, whether they respond in the way that you want or not, is the healthy thing for you.

Brian Perez: Do you think Fawn would benefit from our Take Your Life Back online course that's going to be beginning in a few weeks? Absolutely. That begins the week of August 10th. It's an online course. It's one hour a week for 12 weeks. You can get all the details on our website, newlife.com, or you can call us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Fawn, everybody watching and listening is going to be praying for you because this is so hurtful, the abuse and everything that you're going through and just the estrangement and everything. Thank you so much for calling in today to New Life Live. Let's go to Bill. He's in Vienna, Virginia, and listening on WAVA. Welcome, Bill, to New Life Live. Hi, Bill. Welcome.

Bill: Thank you. I've gotten a lot out of your show and today I was calling about a family that's in a lot of turmoil over the son who is a drug and alcohol abuser and has been in rehab many times and still goes back to either alcohol or drugs. I guess my questions are how is it possible to reach him even though he is not a Christian, he's an atheist, and to reach his mother who is a nominal Christian but is really making him dependent on her? She excuses all of his problems.

Brian Perez: All right, Bill, we'll continue our conversation with you because you can hear the music there. It is time for us to take our break here on New Life Live. I'm Brian Perez, here with author Dr. Jim Burns and author Mark Cameron. Mark is a licensed marriage and family therapist. Jim is the founder of Homeward. He's a parenting expert. You can find out more about him and Mark on our website, newlife.com, where we've got so many videos and resources and articles that can help you. But we're going to come back to the phones when we return.

New Life: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: And let's go back to the phones. Bill, you still with us?

Bill: Yes.

Brian Perez: All right. Mark, what would you say to Bill? Or do you have questions for him?

Mark Cameron: Bill, so this is your son and then you said that his mother is codependent with him and makes excuses. Are you married to his mother?

Bill: No, this is my fiancée's brother.

Mark Cameron: Oh, your fiancée's brother. Okay. Got it. Go ahead.

Bill: She's trying to help her mother, but her mother, whenever she tries to tell her mother about how to effectively deal with the brother with the alcohol and drug problem, she sides with the brother. She's a big enabler and the brother is taking advantage of the parents. He has his own home, but he will come over and leave his dog with his parents even though they're not well-equipped to take care of a young, aggressive dog. He will take food and supplies that his sister has bought and put in the house for the parents, who are in their 80s.

Mark Cameron: Wow. This is a big tension here. So to answer your first question, is it possible to reach out to him or reach him? I think you said something like that. I think you reach people in love. It's possible to build a relationship with somebody. There's a saying that's attributed to Saint Francis of Assisi. It says, "Preach the gospel and if you have to, use words." So I think it's possible to reach this person, your fiancée's brother, and you do that just through inviting him to lunch or inviting him to dinner and just sitting there and listening to him and talking to him and you build that relationship.

When you build credibility in someone's life, it gives you more influence. Whereas if you don't have credibility in someone's life, you might be speaking the truth and you might be actually speaking wisdom, but they're going to reject it. So I think that's the first step to do. Then I think with the parents, again, this is a tension because they have free will and you can't stop them from enabling and that's probably what's led to a lot of these dynamics in the family and this issue itself.

But what you can do is you can separate yourself from it. What I mean by that is you can still go over there and you can still talk to them, but when they bring up the problem and they say, "Oh, son is doing this and son is doing that," you can just empathize and say, "Wow, I'm sorry that's going on. What do you think you're going to do about that?" Because oftentimes what we want to do is we want to jump in and we want to rescue and we want to say, "No, you need to stop doing that and can't you see that he's taking advantage of you and he's doing this and you should do that."

Then we feel exhausted and we feel frustrated. I think that the best thing to do is just to keep putting it back on them, saying, "Wow, that is hard. What do you think you're going to do about that?" Then you can even, if there is ways that you can offer support, you can say, "I'm willing to offer this type of support if you can do this." So that way you're helping them out because it sounds like they're in their 80s and they're vulnerable and they might need some help, but you're also creating some level of boundaries for yourself too.

Dr. Jim Burns: Bill, I was going to say real quick, a couple of quick thoughts. One is what Mark said was so right. I want to affirm him and the input he gave. You can't change an 80-year-old. God can, but you can't. The issue behind the issue is that they're enabling dependency because they have that need and they love their son and they don't know how to love him with tough love. Who knows how long this is going to go for your fiancée? She's obviously quite a bit younger.

So what happens, I think, a lot of times is we can't change the parents, but we can change how we do it. Your fiancée is going to have to understand that her brother is not going to change until he gets some help and sobriety. Even if there was a time when he crashes or something happens, whatever, that's the time to say, "Hey, there are a couple of options and maybe you guys can look into that." What I find is sometimes the faith thing where somebody's an atheist or whatever, it really changes when they go get help.

They learn even through secular recovery steps that at least there's a higher power. I find that a lot of times people who are kind of almost opposed to God once they're getting help are actually much more engaged in a relationship with God and they have other people who are in it and they have a relationship with Jesus, and so all of a sudden it makes meaning. Counseling or other things when somebody has an addiction issue, it doesn't work until you get them sober. That's the hard part. You guys can't do a whole lot about that. So your fiancée can be so helpful to her parents and loving to her parents, but she probably... I know it's going to bug her like crazy if you guys bought something for the parents and then the brother takes it. That's the parents' issue, not yours or their issue.

Bill: Right. Another facet of this is that he seems to have a mental illness as well, but he refuses to get any counseling from a psychologist, psychiatrist, any kind of treatment for that.

Dr. Jim Burns: Yeah, it's hard. But sometimes people who have an addiction issue, it finally catches up with them. I have a family relative who didn't catch up until he was in his 60s when he was desperate. We wanted him to catch up at 35, but it didn't happen. Don't give up. Keep praying for him too.

Brian Perez: Bill, thank you so much for calling today to New Life Live. And if you or a loved one is struggling with finding Christ-centered inpatient treatment for drug and alcohol addiction, I know a place. I'm going to tell you about it when we come back on New Life Live.

New Life: Every day we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression—all kinds of ways. Wouldn't you love to be part of a rescue team? Don't miss your opportunity to be part of something that changes lives every single day because everyone matters. Your generosity helps find them. And you know, we've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life, and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99 for the One is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE (1-800-639-5433) or newlife.com/99for1. Join the mission. Rescue the one and restore the many.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: New Life highly recommends Covenant Hills. They are our partner for inpatient treatment. So if you or a loved one is struggling with finding Christ-centered inpatient treatment for drug and alcohol addiction, check them out. They've been providing excellent clinical care for decades. You can find out more about them at covenanthills.com (the website is covhills.com). You can also call them at 1-800-NO-ABUSE or call us here at 1-800-NEW-LIFE and we'll put you in touch with them.

Back to the phones. Let's go to Sacramento and speak with Cisco. Welcome to New Life Live, Cisco. We're so appreciative of your phone call and thanks for listening on newlife.com. What's going on?

Cisco: Recently my wife left me about a month ago. I was out of the country and when I came back she was gone. She just left, took the furniture, took the car, the motorhome. I don't know how to proceed. I was hurt by it. In the past I had many times that I betrayed her with another person. I confessed my sins. I went to the workshop, Every Man's Battle. I was clean and sober for a while. We were doing pretty well.

But then about six years ago she had a medical condition, a stroke, and that really changed her perspective in life. Somebody else got involved in our relationship—a third person, her brother. He moved in with us and things didn't go too well. We just started fighting a lot. All the stuff that she went through, my infidelity and all that stuff, everything came back to her and she was just really full of anger and resentment towards me no matter what I did or didn't do.

Going forward, my question is: is it too late for me to pursue her? I was able to communicate with her because she changed her phone number. I couldn't get ahold of her. I didn't even know where she is. I think she is with the parents, but the parents, her brother, they just give me the cold shoulder. They don't want to talk to me. They never answer the phone.

Brian Perez: Did her brother move in with you guys to help her after her medical condition or did he just need a place to stay?

Cisco: He was going through a divorce and he moved in with us. We were gracious enough to let him stay, but he became a problem for me. Not for her, but for me.

Mark Cameron: In what way was he a problem for you, Cisco?

Cisco: I felt left out. He was taking all the attention. He was always there. He didn't give me any privacy. He was always sitting there next to her doing puzzles. Then I thought he was going to be there for a couple weeks, maybe a month. Three months later, I told him I need to know how much longer you're going to stay here. If that's the case, you're going to have to contribute not only financially but also doing some chores around the house.

He pretty much told me he couldn't help me financially because he had some other expenses. My wife found out that I did that to him and she was really, really resentful after that. She felt that my call was uncalled for and he was being there to support her emotionally through her stroke. So I can see her point, but I didn't know at that point. I was just concerned about my finances too and my relationship.

Mark Cameron: So she saw him there as supporting her emotionally through her medical issue. When was your last infidelity?

Cisco: It was about six or seven years ago, before the stroke. As far as physical contact, yes. After he moved in and all the stuff where I felt left out, I felt rejected and I started to act out again with masturbation and pornography.

Mark Cameron: What recovery work have you done? I know you went to Every Man's Battle, but what other recovery work have you done?

Cisco: I went to Celebrate Recovery for about three or four years. I was clean and sober. I kept my purity and I was faithful to her. But then life happened. I stopped going. I thought that I had a handle on all that stuff. Everything was fine, she was doing well, we were doing well. Then my pride and my cockiness kind of took the best of me when she had the stroke and the brother moved in and my emotions were shaken, I started to act out again.

Mark Cameron: Did you and your wife do any betrayal recovery work? I know you went to Intimacy in Marriage, which is a great workshop. It's not necessarily specifically for betrayal. But betrayal recovery is more than just a workshop. It's more than just a weekend. Betrayal recovery happens across a period of time. Usually it takes at least two years to recover from an affair. Betrayal recovery requires the person who's been unfaithful to rebuild trust, to listen and hear how they've hurt the other person, to be able to identify the root cause of why they acted out, and then to show that they are safe again. It doesn't sound like you've done that work.

Now, your question is, is it too late to pursue your wife? I don't know about that. I don't think, though, it's too late to apologize. It's not too late to apologize. It's not too late to show that you are becoming a different man, a different person, somebody who recognizes the impact of the betrayal on her. Not only that, but how she's suffered and maybe you've abandoned her too, at least emotionally, while she's been struggling with her medical condition, the stroke.

Recovery is always for you. A lot of times people panic when they act out and then their spouse leaves and then they want to show all of these efforts to win their spouse back. That makes sense. But recovery is only sustained when you do it for you. So I think that you have to really delve deep into this recovery work, not just to win her back, but just to recondition for yourself, and then you'll get to see whether that's enough to be able to save and restore your relationship.

Cisco: She did serve me papers. I got the papers. I don't have a channel of communication with her because, like I said, she changed her phone number. I don't know where she is.

Mark Cameron: So you may want to write an apology letter. I wouldn't explain why you did all of these things, like, "I masturbated because you weren't available to me." I wouldn't make any excuses. I would then just write an apology letter to say, "These are all of the things that I did that hurt you and I recognize that, and whether I win you back or not, I just want you to know that I'm sorry." I think that's probably your best first step.

Cisco: That's fair. I can do that. We do have a channel of communication open via email. I've been gentle and I haven't accused her. I know that she's going through a lot and she's under a lot of pain and frustration. That's probably why she did what she did. She left.

Mark Cameron: And are you in weekly recovery, Cisco?

Cisco: I have support groups, but in the last month or so since she left, I've been kind of lukewarm. I'm just trying to deal with the pain and the hurt that I felt when I got home and she wasn't there.

Mark Cameron: So you need to recover for you first and foremost. But the best evidence for her, if there's an opportunity with her to win trust back, is to see you doing this recovery work for you.

Dr. Jim Burns: Cisco, I think that's exactly it. You want to make sure that you let her know how sorry you are. Whether this works or not, that you're going to get well. And that you are sorry that you have hurt her, you're sorry that you betrayed her. Put that out on the table. Don't ask for too much right now. Just simply say, "I feel this need to apologize, and as I apologize, I wish it was different. I want to be in a relationship still, but I want you to do what you want to do. I love you." That's all you can do. It's in her hands and with the betrayal stuff, you just don't know where she's at on that.

Brian Perez: Cisco, I know you've been going through a lot these last few weeks, but now is the time to really press in with your recovery group. Get back with your guys and talk to them about what's going on because you shouldn't have to do this alone. Thanks for calling today here to New Life Live.

New Life: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: You've heard the calls we've had this week: Bill and Cisco just a few minutes ago, and Catherine, Kristel. All of this is made possible by your financial contributions here to New Life Ministries. Right now we're in the middle of a matching gift up to $300,000. If you've already given, thank you so much for what you've done. We're almost there to the $300,000 mark. Every gift helps and it brings hope and healing to twice as many people. So you can make your matching gift at newlife.com/match or by texting MATCH to 28950. You can also call us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE.

Earlier we were talking about a couple of the intensives that we do: Every Man's Battle, Intimacy in Marriage. We also have one for women; it's called Restore: Healing After Betrayal. If you've always wanted to attend one of these but you're thinking, "Finances... I can't afford it," well, we can help you with a need-based scholarship. You can find out more about that when you call us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE.

Let's take a question that was submitted online, because that's another way you can get your question to us if you can't call in when we're here in the studio. You can either leave us a voicemail or send us an email. Here's one of those emails; it's from Robin in Michigan, who wants to know how to cope with a verbally abusive ex on a court-appointed parenting app.

Robin says, "I'm a long-time listener. Thank you for always being available to help. My daughter is divorced and deals with a verbally abusive ex-spouse. They use a parenting app that is set up by the court, but it's not monitored, so he just says whatever he wants. What can be done about this? She has constant PTSD from his abuse. They have three children together and there's an app that he can talk to the kids on, but he thinks he can just have contact anytime." What would you guys say based on just what we know from the question? We don't have a lot to go on, which is why we love it when you guys can call in and speak with us. But we'll help you as best as we can. What would you say, Mark?

Mark Cameron: These court-appointed apps are designed so that there is a level of accountability. So the first thing that I would say, Robin, is to have your daughter talk with her lawyer because there may be some level of action that can be taken. Every... my understanding with these apps is everything is recorded, everything is written down, and that's why they use these apps. If he's verbally abusive on that, I think absolutely that can be addressed.

I think the best thing to do while you're in that waiting period is to not respond. Because if you respond back and you say hurtful things back, if it ends up before the judge, then he's going to say, "Well, this is just tit-for-tat, six of one, half a dozen of the other." The best thing to do is just don't respond to any of the mean or hurtful things that he says, because we don't have to respond to everything that somebody says.

There's a really good acronym too; it's called BIFF (B-I-F-F) and it stands for Brief, Informative, Friendly, and Firm. That's often a guide used for people who are co-parenting in difficult communications. So whatever you need to communicate, you're as brief as possible, use less words if you can. It's just informative, you're just talking about the facts. It doesn't have to be overly friendly, really the friendly could just be cordial. But then it's just firm. There's no negotiation in that. So that's a really good guide to go by.

Dr. Jim Burns: What I was going to say is that literally, Robin, your daughter has this recorded. If you do respond, remember you're co-parenting, and so two things I'm thinking about. One is I would respond by saying, "I'm so sorry you feel that way. I'd like to focus on our children" and be only positive. Because again, it's copied, you can show the court, that's why when Mark said go to the attorney, you can.

All of a sudden what he said at one time probably in his marriage behind a closed door, he's not saying it behind a closed door now; it's in front. What they see is your daughter doing it right, him doing it wrong. He's going to be real quiet on that app after he gets his hand slapped by a judge. That's a really important thing to do. I've seen this over and over again with people and I always say the same thing: do not go tit-for-tat. Don't go back at them. Just be kind and with the BIFF, part of it was firm.

You've got to be firm, but don't roll in the same stuff. It is not worth it. Secondly, focus back with him always on the co-parenting of the children. As much as he may not like your daughter, he hopefully cares for those kids. Focus only... have the conversations, "I'm going to choose to only have the conversations about what's best for our children." The courts are seeing that and can see it. So look good on that app. Don't go back and forth with some kind of an argument. It is not worth it, it doesn't work, and plus it's going to turn on her because if she goes back at it that way.

Brian Perez: Robin said in her letter that the app isn't monitored. But you're saying it is recorded, so they can take that up.

Dr. Jim Burns: There's nobody in the office staring at what's going on there. So make copies of it. You can make copies of it, you can do a screenshot of it—things like that. Because literally that will then hold him accountable. She should not have to put up with that kind of emotional abuse from her ex.

Mark Cameron: The frustrating part about this is the courts are so impacted it can take a while to be able to get back in front of a judge when you file some kind of injunction.

Dr. Jim Burns: But even when, I think, sometimes an ex knows that you're going through that, that's putting him on notice: "We're watching you and that was inappropriate," without ever having to say it.

Brian Perez: Robin, thank you so much for submitting your question online. You guys can do that too by going to newlife.com/radio. You'll see the phone number to call us when we're here in the studio, also our recording schedule, also the phone number to leave us a voicemail, and the email address where you can send your email like Robin just did.

I learned a new phrase today: BIFF. All this time I thought Biff was just a character in the Back to the Future movie, right? But BIFF, I think that is great because you can use it in so many situations, not just with an ex-spouse or when you're co-parenting. Again, BIFF stands for brief, informative, friendly, and firm. And again, you don't have to be overly friendly. It's just really you can be cordial. But the acronym BIFF is not as good as BIFF. We like BIFF. It makes more sense. Wealth of knowledge, this guy Mark. That's why he's the leader of How We Love. How are things going with that, Mark?

Mark Cameron: How We Love is going really well. For people who don't know what How We Love is, How We Love is a website that has a free attachment quiz on it. It was formed from the work that Milan and Kay Yerkovich did from their best-selling book How We Love, which has sold half a million copies now. It's all about attachment. Everybody has an attachment style, and so if you come to the website, we can help you understand yours.

Brian Perez: Nice and easy: howwelove.com. All right, that's all the time we have on today's episode of New Life Live. We will be back with you tomorrow on the Friday edition of the show. Dr. Jim Burns, Mark Cameron, thanks for joining me today on New Life Live.

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