New Life LIVE

New Life: Welcome to the New Life LIVE podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: Hello and welcome to New Life LIVE. I'm your host, Brian Perez, and we're going to be in the studio for two hours today taking your calls at 1-800-229-3000. You can also send us your questions via the radio page at newlife.com. That will get you to the email address and the voicemail number.

We love talking to you guys. So if you can call us for the next two hours, 1-800-229-3000 is the number to call. In the studio with me, we've got Dr. Jim Burns. He's written his latest book, When Your Adult Child Strays. He's here in the studio today, and so is licensed marriage and family therapist, Dr. Jackie Mack Harris. Dr. Jackie, what's on your mind to start us off?

Jackie Mack Harris: What's on my mind today is changing careers. I am a professor and I work with students who are in different phases of life. Just over the last five years, there's been a lot of people coming in and cross-training. They're going into new professions.

I had a conversation with a woman who is middle-aged, and she was just feeling down about getting such a late start and starting over again. I just wanted to share an encouragement to people who may find that they are starting over again, whether it's because a marriage has ended or the job wasn't a good fit.

If you are still here, if you're still around, then there is still an opportunity to go and make your life what you want it to be. Being in your 50s and going back to school again to finally do that thing you always dreamed of but didn't think you could do, it's okay.

I was trying to encourage her as she was struggling with assignments and how hard it is being older than everyone else. But then we got to talking and realizing there are quite a few people who, in this phase of life, have realized that the thing they went to college for, they didn't really enjoy. Maybe they weren't really great at it, or they were great at it but they didn't enjoy it. Or they got laid off and it's not sustainable for them to continue in that line of work.

Maybe physically, like for me, I'm a nurse. I can't go into my 70s lifting and turning people. So becoming a therapist has given me some career longevity, but it's also me doing the thing that I love to do. I just want to encourage people to just figure out who you are and what you want to do. You don't have to stay in a position that you don't enjoy, that doesn't suit you, or that doesn't suit your family.

I went back to school in my 40s. I got my master's degree in my late 40s and my doctorate degree in my 50s. I'm glad that it happened the way that it did because by the time I got to graduate school, I was mature enough to do well even though I have ADHD. I was able to learn that because I went back to school later in life.

I just want to encourage those who might be out there who are having to change careers or go back to work at the end of a marriage or who have been widowed and now at this stage in their life are trying to figure out what they want to be when they grow up. It's not too late. Go out there and live your best life.

Brian Perez: There's also the people that maybe have never had a job in years because they raised the kids right after they got married. So now they're like, what do I do now? And we need that extra income, especially if you live in some parts of the country that are super expensive. So yeah, there's that too.

Jim Burns: You get to reinvent your life. Sometimes that's the empty nest that causes that in a good way. We can talk you through that here on New Life LIVE. Give us a call. Pick up the phone or take it out of your back pocket or your purse. Maybe you left it in your car. Go get it. 1-800-229-3000 is the number to call today.

Brian Perez: We would love to hear from you whether it's about changing careers or who knows? Maybe you've got some issues going on with your kids, whether they're young or already off starting their own families. Give us a call, 1-800-229-3000. We'll be right back.

Want to let you know about three New Life courses that we've got going on here at New Life Ministries. They begin the week of August 10th. These are live, they are online, and they are faith-based experiences that tackle issues like shame, codependency, food issues, and more with biblical truth and practical tools.

They're led by licensed Christian counselors and coaches. They're small group courses that give you teaching, interaction, and a clear next step toward emotional and spiritual freedom. You can explore the upcoming 12-week courses at newlife.com. 12 weeks, one hour a week: Lose It For Life, Healing is a Choice, and Take Your Life Back. Get all the details online at newlife.com. Let's go to the phones now. Lynn is our first caller of the day. She's in Kemper, Texas. She watches us on YouTube. So we'll make sure to wave to Lynn. Thank you so much for calling in today, Lynn. What's going on?

Lynn: Hi. This is probably going to sound like a little bit of an odd question, so I hope I explain it right. My husband and I grew up in one denomination and primarily raised our kids in that one. But a few years ago, because of where we lived, we joined a church that was more of a Pentecostal denomination.

We enjoy the people in it, but there are a couple of teachings that are a little different than I grew up with. But typically it didn't bother me too much. Now I'm finding my anxiousness is heightened because my daughter who's in college is now in a fairly serious relationship with the pastor's son. Now I'm finding all these things I'm worrying about with the denomination because I kind of thought she would be able to go back to how she was raised because she probably would live in a different community.

Now I'm kind of like, "Oh, she's possibly marrying into this and will be in this her whole life." My mind is kind of going all over with that. Do you think it's more of I'm having trouble letting go of the bigger picture of my daughter's in a serious relationship, or do you think it's actually valid?

Brian Perez: One question I have super quick is, is the pastor's son also aspiring to be a pastor?

Lynn: I think he has thought about it, but he is not pursuing it at this time. So he may not.

Jim Burns: Lynn, I think it's a great question, by the way, and I think it's a question a lot of people ask. Now, again, you're going to get my opinion. But I hear people from my book, When Your Adult Child Strays, I hear people saying that my daughter is dating or maybe going to be engaged to somebody and then it's everything but a pastor's son with a little Pentecostal going on in there.

So I think you might be overthinking it a bit. Now again, I think you've got to come because what we say when we talk about adult children is you give them the passport to adulthood. You did a great job. I can tell just by your voice. You gave your daughter a great foundation. She's going to make hopefully really good decisions. She's a young adult. She's going to also make some maybe goofy decisions, but that's what they do.

Because you gave that foundation, then this is where you relinquish her to God. I mean, that's one of the hardest things. It's a sense of loss. We always say this when there's an adult child involved, whatever decision they make. I mean, my three daughters who I love and adore, and in fact, I was having a great conversation with one of them right before this broadcast, they all said, "Dad, you wanted us to marry youth pastors."

None of them did. They married business guys, right? I love these guys. They're great. And I've said this, you know, I probably wouldn't have chosen, but I probably didn't do as good a job as they did at choosing. So I think this is where you have to just say, "You know what, we're going to just relinquish this and let my daughter go and celebrate my daughter."

Now, when it comes to different things where how you grew up, obviously that's a norm and sometimes that's frustrating or whatever. That's where you want to be in a relationship with maybe the pastor or someone else at that church and get to know what are those differences. Sounds like you're doing that, but get to know what those differences are and long-term that may be your church and you just begin to love it and embrace it and it may not be.

But I think you're asking two different questions. One is, how do I relinquish my daughter to become a responsible adult and give her input? And the other question then becomes more about you because I find a lot of adult children don't go to the same church as their parents. And that's not really a horrible thing. They just find something that's more meaningful to them and maybe she has found that, see? So I want to separate the two and I think you're kind of glomping them together. Is that a word, Jackie?

Jackie Mack Harris: Yes, it is as of today.

Jim Burns: It is today. Glomping both of those together. So unglomp it and focus on both. And do both. It'll be a great experience for you.

Jackie Mack Harris: I agree. I think you asked toward the end of your question, Lynn, "Is this just me needing to let go?" And I think it's some of that, but not just let go in terms of your adult daughter is now in a serious relationship, but let go in terms of she's also an adult in her faith.

And she gets to decide what the traditions of faith are for her. And she's decided that this family, this person, and this ministry works for her. And just as Dr. Jim said, there's so many of us who had children who dated people that were just like, "Couldn't it have been anything else?" right?

So him being the pastor's kid, which comes with its own set of stuff—I married a PK, so I know it comes with its own things—but just trust the work that you've already done and enjoy the journey as your daughter moves into adulthood. There were some choices that my children made that I wouldn't have made, and they have turned out really well. I have amazing sons-in-law. Both my daughters said they would never marry military, and they did.

So we don't know how things are going to go. And when we have expectations, sometimes those expectations just become burdens for ourselves or for the other person. Just let her live and let her live well. And I hope that this guy is a great guy. And the church traditions, if you think about history, those are tenets and behaviors and practices that humans came up with. People, just people. And so she's hanging with a different group of people.

As long as Jesus is the center, then—my husband's Church of God in Christ, so he's Pentecostal, I grew up Baptist—so I have a little bit of that, "Oh no, they do things differently." and they have some different thoughts and beliefs, but it's not harmed anything. If anything, it's actually helped because it's given us talking points. It's given us points for conversation to learn and to grow and to know each other better. So look forward to how much they're going to get to grow and learn about each other because they come from different places and there's already a knowing about that. So let that be one of the gifts in the relationship instead of one of the things that you lament.

Jim Burns: You know, the Bible says do not be unequally yoked. And I think that's a great word picture if you will. The yoke is really with oxen kind of going in the right direction. And to be yoked to someone who is already a believer is a beautiful thing. Like you said, Jackie, you know, yeah, he comes with a different slant. But but they're equally yoked in terms of their faith. And I'd celebrate that big, big time, Lynn. Do you have other children, Lynn?

Lynn: Yes, I have another adult son, but he hasn't been in a relationship. So all of this is a little new to me too.

Jackie Mack Harris: It is definitely different when you bring in the new set of kids, when you bring in that dating partner or that new spouse. It definitely changes things, but it's the families coming together and becoming one. My girls sometimes say that I like my sons-in-law better than them. My son-in-law says I'm his favorite child and, you know, we have one who says that too. That's funny.

Brian Perez: All right, well, thank you so much for calling in today to New Life LIVE, Lynn. 1-800-229-3000 is the number that you can call to get your question answered today. We've got Dr. Jim Burns and Dr. Jackie Mack Harris. Call in. You can use a different name if you want to if you're afraid people are going to find out who you are or whatever is going on. Just call in. We want to help you at 1-800-229-3000.

Another way that we help is through these Intensives that we do throughout the year. One of them is called Intimacy in Marriage. It's designed for married couples and engaged couples to kind of—if you wind up married for 40, 50, 60, 70 years, at the end, do you want to say, if somebody asks you, "How's your marriage?" "Oh, it was okay." No, you don't want that, right?

So go to Intimacy in Marriage. It could be—you might already have a great marriage. Well, this would be good for like a tune-up or maybe you're struggling in your marriage. Maybe the communication has gone south. But we can help you at the Intimacy in Marriage Intensive. You guys have been to these Intensives. I'm sure they're highly recommended by you two.

Jim Burns: Yeah. You know, I've often said that if you spend a weekend in an intensive, that's really better than 52 weeks of Sunday school. Please don't hear me say Sunday school's bad. Dr. Jackie's going to slap my hand in the church and I love Sunday school.

But I'm saying you can do more and better work sometimes in a weekend with an Intensive. Same, by the way, sometimes even with counseling, is the way I look at it. So it's a great investment, period.

Jackie Mack Harris: I was talking to students about that yesterday evening. We're actually studying an actual intensive. We're watching an intensive in the class and this was an opportunity for them to see therapy go on for hours and hours and they just saw how much was able to be accomplished in the intensive.

And so I absolutely recommend it. Our Intimacy in Marriage intensive is life-changing, relationship-changing, and I think it can change families for generations. I'm still getting feedback from people that I know that have gone to Intensives. It's changed their life so much that they are willing to pay for other people to go. So I do, I think it's a really great weekend.

Brian Perez: The next one is happening July 24th in Washington, D.C. We have a discount if you sign up by July 10th. So get all the details at newlife.com or call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Before we go to the break, I think we have time to squeeze in a question that was submitted online. This one is from Karen. I'll at least read the question and maybe we can give a little bit of feedback but then we'll continue because I don't think it's something we can answer with a really quick yes or no, definitely.

But Karen wrote in, "How does one move from shame and guilt over past mistakes?" Karen says, "I wake up feeling like I've lost any rewards I may have had as a Christian. and I find it difficult to move forward. I'm almost 70, and I've been slothful and wasteful. I've dishonored my husband with a terrible disposition and was depressed off and on for years. My children have witnessed this. I had a poor attitude often towards them. I've allowed the sun to go down upon my wrath often.

I see myself as a castaway and I don't know what to do. I've confessed to my family who thinks I'm overreacting, but I know what I've done. How do I forgive myself and move from here? I say I do, but this is a constant battle from the time I wake up till I go to bed. I have not been a good steward over any part of my life. God has blessed me so much, but I wasn't thankful. I was given so many opportunities to change but didn't. I complained a lot. I served in the church for years, but I feel like a hypocrite. I need relief. It's hard to function." Wow. What do you guys say to Karen?

Jackie Mack Harris: Poor Karen. I feel for her. I feel some sadness in that she's been on this journey with the Lord for all this time and just so steeped in shame. Her question is, how do I get out of this and it's really how do I get out of my head because the thoughts that you are thinking are contributing to your belief.

And because you believe these things are true, you behave in certain ways and that behavior is having this consequence of just year after year after year of shame and guilt and remorse and not living in the fullness of who Jesus is in your life.

Jim Burns: Timothy, by the way, is your real name Timothy? Not Timothy, no. James. And my wife ever so often says James, I know I'm in trouble when she says James. But my grandson is named after me and his name is James. So I like the name James. I don't even know if Timothy's a real name. I doubt it, maybe a cartoon character. And that's why you did that because you think I'm a cartoon character. No comment. No, I'm kidding. All right, so we'll finish up with Karen when we come back here on New Life LIVE. And Phil, we're going to talk to you on the telephone. Thank you for calling. And everyone else, we're going to be here for two hours today. So grab an open line, 1-800-229-3000, call in.

New Life: To find more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

Brian Perez: So I just read a question from Karen she submitted online through newlife.com/radio. That shows the email address and the voicemail number where you can leave your questions if you can't call in when we're here. But we are here today for the next 90 minutes or so at 1-800-229-3000. Karen just wants to know how to move forward from shame and guilt over past mistakes. So Jackie, what else would you say to Karen?

Jackie Mack Harris: I'm going to ask Karen to go to the New Testament and start reading and to read it as though she is the person they are talking to and about. Because when I hear all those scripture verses of all these things she's doing wrong, it made me wonder, does she know grace? Does she know that it's by grace that we are saved through faith, and that not of ourselves, it's the gift of God, so that no man can boast?

She would be boasting about being good enough, about being great, about saying things the right way, treating people the right way, showing up the right way, if her salvation was in those things. It's not. Salvation is in what Christ did on the cross. And he did it because there is none good, no not one. All fall short of the glory of God. We all sin. And that is why Jesus went to the cross.

And so it seems for me such a waste to live a life of service and support and be involved in ministry and then to get to this point in your life where you just are beating yourself up and living in shame. Where was Jesus all those years? Because you didn't do it in your own strength. Salvation is not about what you are doing well and right. Salvation is about what Jesus did and your accepting that nothing else could save you but Jesus' finished work on the cross. And by the way, it's finished.

And so all we have to do now is live in the benefit of that. And so yeah, we change our lives and we treat people well and we give and we serve. We're doing all that as a thank you to this gracious God. We're thank you that my life has been saved and spared and I get to show up in people's lives in these ways. And when I fall short, I turn to God and I repent. And a repentant heart is something that God loves. He said David's a man after his own heart.

And if you look at David, he did some things you probably wouldn't be proud of, right? And yet he was a man after God's own heart. So I would go back to the Old Testament, I would start at John 1:1 and just take it all the way to the end of Revelation and see yourself in the work that Jesus has done. He's come that you would be free and not that you would continue to live in the bondage that I think just is society. That's not Jesus.

Jim Burns: You know, I love when people write in. I also really hope Karen hears what you just said. I think it's so key. You know, here you are Karen, if you're listening, 70 years old, you're actually in touch with yourself because you understand when you talked about even dishonoring through complaining, things like that. So when Jackie says, you know, go to the scripture, the beauty of Christian—and again, we here believe definitely in counseling and we use Christian counseling.

But bathe yourself in scriptures that are about grace and mercy. Make sure that you spend extra time—I do this every day, by the way. I just write down 20 reasons why I'm thankful. I call it Thank Therapy. And I just write down those reasons and that gives me better perspective that I'm not God, that he is God. And because sometimes when we hold on to our pain like that, what we're doing is we're not allowing God to do the work that he wants to do in our life.

And so I was thinking and she had great scriptures and I was thinking about a scripture that's been very important to me all of my life since I've become a Christian. I became a Christian when I was 16. And it's Romans 12. And in 1 and 2 especially, but 2 says, "Renew your mind for good." and it goes on.

But I would suggest that you renew your mind. There's an exercise that sometimes I teach about just reframing your mindset. So you've had 70 years and yeah, you said you complained to your husband and other things. So you've been married I betcha a long time and even your kids don't agree with you that you're as bad as you think you are. So, you reframe your mind. So, yeah, so I did that. What else? Well, what else is, you know, you have a lovely family. Well, what else is God has given you health?

You mentioned you were in your 70s. Well, that's God has given you good health. What else? And you just keep saying "What else?" and then what you're doing is your circumstance may not always change, but your attitude can change and that makes the difference in the world. You can do that, not on your own, but you can do that when you bathe yourself in grace, mercy, things like that. It's a great exercise to do.

And again, I think any of our listeners who are struggling with some of the shame, some of the things that we've blown, the sinfulness in our own selves, if we'll make sure that we understand grace and forgiveness, it's not about what we've done. We don't have to brag about it. We can just simply say here's what God has done. And that really changes things. And I think over the—you can spend the next however long you're going to live, and I have a feeling just by you writing that, I think you're going to be around for a while—bathe yourself in the grace and mercy of God and quit trying to work so hard at it.

Brian Perez: Do you think comparison might be at play here too?

Jackie Mack Harris: Yes. And the comparison is interesting because it's in your imagination. Because you're comparing yourself to what you imagine that other person to be because we're not in them.

Brian Perez: Exactly. Yeah, there's the part that she wrote here in her letter that her family thinks—"I've confessed to my family who thinks I'm overreacting." So here she is saying, "I've been a bad mom, I've been a bad wife, I've done this wrong, I've done that right." and they're like, "No. You were a great mom. We love you." But we get in our head and we just start thinking.

Jackie Mack Harris: I love the accountability and then leave it at the cross. We do overreact a lot of times. And if the families are saying it, usually they're right.

Brian Perez: Karen, thanks for writing in. We're going to go to the phones when we come back here on New Life LIVE. 1-800-229-3000 is our number.

New Life: Every day we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression, all kinds of ways. Wouldn't you love to be part of a rescue team? Don't miss your opportunity to be part of something that changes lives every single day because every one matters. Your generosity helps find them. And you know we've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99 for the One is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE, 1-800-639-5433, or newlife.com/99fortheone. Join the mission. Rescue the one and restore the many.

To find more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

Brian Perez: And if you go to newlife.com/radio, you'll see other ways that you can get your question to us. Our favorite way is when you call in to 1-800-229-3000, but you can send us an email or leave us a voicemail. And here's an email that Tom sent in. "Would counseling or coaching be the better fit for parents of an adult child who is neurodivergent? My wife and I would like help working and communicating with our 29-year-old adopted son.

He says he's neurodivergent and has ADD and AUDHD high functioning. He is now in a program that does neurofeedback to help him with that. He was using a lot of drugs in 2021. Most folks who have AUDHD have addiction issues to dampen their pain from what we read. He went to an 18-month program, 12-step program, and we paid for it. After he finished it, he decided not to continue going to AA meetings or keep in touch with the community. We are praying that God will change his heart and heal him of any past traumas and addiction and to bring godly resources into his life. Would counseling or coaching be the better fit for us on how to communicate with firm boundaries with our son?" What would you say?

Jackie Mack Harris: I'm thinking counseling because they've got some things that they need to work out systemically as a family and maybe even some grief that they can work through and a counselor can help them address what other things might be going on. When we do counseling or therapy, we're usually looking at something that is diagnosable.

And so there's some anxiety around how he's living his life. There might be some—they're in adjustment phase because of his launching or his coming out of addiction treatment and now he's moving on to a new phase. And so being in therapy can address those issues, whereas coaching is really "Let me help you figure out how to take the steps to do this thing in your life."

It's not really looking at anxiety or how anxiety is impacting the family. It's not really looking at addiction or how that's impacting the family. It's really just more hands-on walking alongside someone and, you know, just like on a basketball court, coaching them, "Shoot the ball this way, do it that way." Whereas in therapy, it's really trying to uncover how did we get here and then what do we need to do differently to make the changes we want to make in our life? So I'm going to say I would recommend that they as a couple do some therapy.

Jim Burns: I'm with Jackie. I'm for counseling on that. And the reason is because there's so many issues that go on that a counselor is trained with. Most of the time a coach isn't. Now, by the way, I like coaching. I recommend people to sometimes coaching. Coaching can—funny enough though, so counseling all the way, 100%. That's who if they came to me I would refer them to a counselor. And I would refer them to a counselor that had some background in the particular issues that this kid is going through because they mentioned autism, they mentioned addiction. I mean, that's a lot of stuff going on.

But sometimes with a counselor, if there's a coach that as parents sometimes we're trying to—we're trying to be their coach. And sometimes that doesn't work. Like our daughter Christie when she was younger and she has ADHD, we actually hired a coach to help her get her homework done. She's brilliant kid, but the coach just held her accountable and kind of gave her some skills.

Well, the coach wasn't going to prescribe a medication for her, but or within a counselor was not going to go deep and all that. So sometimes really there can be a combo with that. And you don't have to—sometimes you don't have to pay for that. I mean, the coach could be the associate pastor at the church. The coach could be somebody who just loves this young man and wants to help him.

But when you get into more of the addiction issues, when you get into autism and things like that, that's somebody needs to—that's a specialty. So somebody needs to do that. So that's a great question, I think for all of our listeners to understand because a lot of times my experience is when people talk to me when I'm speaking and they'll come and they'll ask me that question, they don't really know the difference or they don't know the training. And as you said, Jackie, really is two different things. So I like counseling. I would big time on this case. But if you could sneak in a little coaching and maybe you didn't have to do it as parents, it'll help your relationship with your child.

Jackie Mack Harris: And the coaching for the child, right? Because, yeah, that could be really helpful for him. I absolutely agree. And I like coaching too. We do coaching and my husband and I do couples coaching. So we'll work together, him as pastoral counselor and me as a therapist.

Certain people don't necessarily need us to dig through all their attachment stuff. Some people just need some help taking different steps. And so I agree, coaching is great, but it's a completely different path and the training that comes along with it is different. I think that they would really benefit from meeting with a therapist to work through a lot of maybe their expectations.

He was adopted, and so he was adopted and there was a lot of struggle. And if he just recently learned he's AUDHD, then they didn't know either. And so a lot of what went on in his child-rearing years, they might need to unpack.

Brian Perez: And New Life can connect you with faith-based Christian counseling and biblical life coaching across the country. Whatever you're facing, New Life's network of licensed counselors and trained coaches will walk with you toward healing and God's best for your life. To take the next step, go to newlife.com and click "Counseling and Coaching." One quick question before we end the hour—and by the way, we're going to be here for another hour, so you guys can keep calling us at 1-800-229-3000. But when do you know that perhaps you're at your church and you're going through pastoral counseling, but maybe it's time to move beyond that? And some people would say, "Well, no, that's all you need. Pastoral counseling is good enough." But is there ever a situation where you might need more than that? And then if you're a pastoral counselor or a pastor at your church who's offering counseling, when does that person know, "You know what, we need to take this to a different level?"

Jackie Mack Harris: I hope that pastors are able to know when it's out of their scope, when it's out of their reach. I went to school and became a therapist because I was in that situation, working with women, leading women's ministry, working with the youth, leading youth ministry. And we're praying and we're doing scripture and we're doing study and we're spending time and we're building community and lives were still not changing.

And there were some deeper issues in some of those lives. Becoming a therapist gave me the skill to be able to attach that to what I already understood about theology and about faith and help people make better change. And so I think that the pastoral counselor has to know their own limitations and what their scope is and be willing to then give a referral. For myself, I don't marry people, but I will do couples counseling for anybody my husband is marrying. I've set my own boundaries in that area, and I think that pastors have to be able to do that.

Jim Burns: I think most pastors are not called to do long-term counseling. So I—in fact, when I'm training pastors, I say the first thing you need to do is figure out how can you refer them to somebody who knows a lot more than you do. Now, pastors disciple people, and that's a little bit more like coaching, but that's in certain areas.

But somebody comes with some kind of an issue, the pastor didn't get training. I'm trained as a pastor. I didn't get that kind of training, and I have a pastoral counseling background. But there's a lot of things that are just way over my head. So you've got to know when to refer, and they should refer quite quickly. Come alongside, be their shepherd. Pastor means to be a shepherd. Be their shepherd. Love on them, do all the things that you do well as a pastor.

Again, some pastors aren't going to like me for this, but some pastors don't counsel very well or some stay too long. I think it can kind of hurt the situation because they're going in a place they don't know what to do.

Jackie Mack Harris: You're limited in your resources and it is hard sometimes as a pastor. I've learned that I have to be a little more gentle. But a lot of times what we were doing was causing people to leave more depressed and more anxious and feeling like they were failing at being a Christian because we're saying read more scripture, have more faith, pray more deeply. And they're doing those things and we're not addressing the systemic issue, the historical issues in that person's life that's impacting their present. And then a lot of people might wind up blaming the church for that because the church couldn't help them when in reality you needed more help than that.

Brian Perez: So give us a call. We can help find you a Christian counselor, therapist, coach in your area. 1-800-229-3000 is our number and we're going to be here for another hour, so call in.

New Life: Thanks so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember, we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to newlife.com to find more information. And thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing, and we're so glad that you're here.