New Life LIVE

New Life: Welcome to the New Life LIVE podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: Thank you so much for joining us today here on New Life LIVE. I'm your host, Brian Perez. Suzanne, we're going to talk to you in just a moment. First, let me let you know who you're going to be talking to. We've got licensed professional clinical counselor Becky Brown, who's also the president of New Life Ministries, and Sherry Denham Kefer, who is a doctor of marriage and family therapy.

She's also an author. She wrote this book, which we've talked a lot about this week, called Intimate Deception. It's available in the newlife.com store. Sherry, what's on your mind to start us off?

Sherry Denham Kefer: I have to tell you guys a story. My mom had a pacemaker put in, and she had to have a replacement. It's only good for so many years. She had it done in February, and it got infected. She had to go back in and have leads changed. When they did that surgery to have the leads changed, she had a staph infection on her heart and on the tricuspid valve.

I drove out last week. She was in critical care. She's had to have IVs for the next six weeks to try to fight this infection. I'm on the road and I am crying. I am praying. I am just asking the Lord to please send the right physicians, doctors, and all of that as she's going through this surgery and process.

Once she got through the surgery and I got to the facility that she's at getting this higher level of care, it was a whole new place. There were new people. She didn't know anybody, and she was scared. Again, I just started to pray, "Lord, would you please send somebody? Somebody that's going to love my mom, a nurse or someone that can help her out."

Wouldn't you know it, I'm sitting there in my ponytail, have no makeup on, I'm in my sweats. My mom has Billy Graham on the TV, and one of the nurses walks in. They start talking about Billy Graham. My mom came to know Jesus through the Billy Graham Crusade. As she was talking, she started sharing her faith as a Christian.

Then we started talking about lots of things, and she looked around at me and she says, "I think I know you. What's your name?" I told her, and she looked at me and she says, "Oh my goodness! I know you because I've been listening to New Life for 30 years."

She was a missionary in China. Her name is Laura, and she has to have a heart procedure in a month. The fact that my mom was having this procedure, which is similar to what she's perceiving, and she came into the office crying out to God because of her own heart issue, her own heart surgery that she has to have done.

The fact that we could meet each other, we could hug each other, I asked her, I said, "Would it be okay if I shared the story? I'm going to be in the studio on Wednesday." She said yes. I said because I want to ask our listeners to pray for you, Laura. I want them to ask you to pray for your heart surgery, which is going to be in three weeks. It's L-O-R-A.

Isn't that amazing how God brought two people's prayers together? We have each other's number now. She texted me. She goes, "I'm going to take care of your mama like my own mama." That's a New Life listener. It's one of us. Good God. God is so good and he's able to answer our prayers. I just wanted to share that testimony today because it is a testimony. Our faith grows when we hear testimonies like this.

Brian Perez: You could be asking the Lord to send someone your way to help you, and you might just be that person to offer that help as well to somebody else. That is so encouraging. We're going to be praying for Laura and your mom as well. Praise God. All right, we'll go to the phones. Suzanne, you're next on New Life LIVE.

We're going to talk to Tammy in just a little bit, but right now we've got Suzanne in Quakertown, Pennsylvania, listening on WBYN. Welcome, Suzanne, to New Life LIVE. How can we help you?

Suzanne: My friend Tammy went through a divorce about two years ago, and her ex-husband is not a very nice person to her. He was not nice when she got the divorce, and he manipulated her and used her. In the process of about six to eight months afterwards, because she was so hurt, she pushed her child to make choices.

Her daughter, Eileen, ended up saying things like, "If you're going to see him, you're not supporting me. If you're hanging out with him, you're not supporting me," things of that nature. We all know that's just her pain talking. Right now, and for the past six months or so, Eileen and Tammy have not been speaking.

My question to you is, as her friend, should we just give everything time, or should her friends be pushing her to reconcile with Eileen? A lot of hurt was said on both sides. Is time a valid healer in this situation? Tammy is a godly woman. Eileen is not. Eileen is somewhere in the area of 27, and Tammy is somewhere in the area of 60.

Becky Brown: Suzanne, you're a very good friend. The short answer is time alone doesn't do anything, and it can actually make things worse. Approaching the problem isn't just going in and everybody hug. There's been a lot of pain that Tammy's gone through and Eileen's gone through. And you, too, Suzanne. You're getting it because you're watching this play out. Has the daughter said, "Don't talk to me anymore," or given her any sort of "if you will do this, then I will do that" kind of ultimatum in these last six months?

Suzanne: Eileen put boundaries on their relationship because Eileen felt that every time they talked, Tammy was talking about her father or God. Right now, Eileen doesn't want Tammy to talk about her father or God at all if they're going to talk. Tammy has decided she can't do that. "God is helping me through this situation, so I can't not talk about him."

Becky Brown: As a friend, what you might say to Tammy is, "How's that working for you?" Is she ready to get rid of her daughter too? God does speak to all of us, and those of us who are followers of Jesus, we feel really strongly about our faith and we want to share that. But if we are not paying attention to the person across the table from us and being able to hear them, we lose our ability to reach them. As Tammy is being resistant, it doesn't sound to me like she really wants to talk to Eileen. But am I reading that wrong, Suzanne?

Suzanne: As of right now today, Tammy has said, "I may never talk to Eileen again. She disrespected me. She hurt me as well." I'm just sitting there thinking, "You've got to be kidding me."

Becky Brown: That's a sad thing because it's not what Jesus would do. She's not Jesus, and there's a lot of pain. All this division is happening and the lack of healing is going to continue in other ways.

Sherry Denham Kefer: I know this story well. I feel like I want to talk to Tammy for a second as the mom. I want to say a few things. When you said, Suzanne, "We all know it was just her pain leaking out, coming out," the truth of it is that's right. The truth of it is pain harms people.

The fact that her pain from the divorce, from being with a guy that was not a good guy, manipulative, and there was a lot of harm, it is really common for moms to want to have their kids on their team. It's almost instinctive. Even if we go back to when we're kids and somebody hurts us, it's like, "I want so-and-so to be on my team." We're looking, we're pulling. We want to feel justified, to feel right, to feel honored, to feel fought for, to feel believed, to be understood.

Those are all things that Tammy wanted and needed. The problem is she triangulated her daughter in. What's triangulation? I'm listening to you and I'm drawing Tammy and her ex-husband and Eileen on a piece of paper. Then I'm drawing a line between the three of them to make a triangle.

Triangulation is toxic. It's harmful. When it happens, it means that there's two levels of that triangle that are in disarray or upset, or the conversations, they're on edge. They're mad at each other. It's clear that there's dissension between Tammy and her ex-husband.

In order for Tammy to feel aligned to, she wanted to try to pull in Eileen with some straight lines. "I want you to be aligned to me, and when I'm with you, I'm going to talk about your dad and I'm talking about God and I want justice." There's actually something called an intimate justice scale. I imagine that Tammy is a person of justice.

She wants something to be right and just. I know I'm talking to your heart, Tammy. What happened to you is unjust. It's not right. But in that desire to have your daughter on your team, it pulled her in. This is unconscious. Thinking that if she could pull her in, she didn't think about triangulation. Tammy didn't know about that. She didn't realize that would basically cause dissension between her and her dad.

It backfired because Eileen is like, "This doesn't feel good." Eileen did not divorce her dad. Her mom divorced her dad. Eileen's relationship with her dad is independent of her relationship with her mom. Tammy, I want you to go to your friends, to a counselor, to groups, and process your grief and pain and anger and hurt. That's what you need to do. That's work.

But I guess I want to say this to you, Tammy. Even sometimes when you think you're right, you're wrong. This is one of those situations. When your daughter is clearly saying, "Respect me. Stop hurting me by talking about dad or by talking about God," and when Tammy says, "I can't do that," do you know that you're sending a message of disrespect back to your daughter?

Tammy might be saying, "Hey, wait a second. I need to be respected. I'm the mom." Yes, but you have a 27-year-old daughter who's an adult. There's something that changes over time. It's got to be a mutually respectful relationship. That's where this justice part of us, those of us that have a lot and extra dose of that intimate justice scale, we will die on that hill, even if it means not talking to her daughter again, which is tragic. I don't think that's what Tammy really wants. I think she's more focused in on being right than she is on loving her daughter as a daughter who needs a relationship with her dad.

Brian Perez: Becky, as Christians, we're told not to be ashamed of the gospel, that we need to always be ready to share our faith. But there's a time for that, right?

Becky Brown: Sure. The thing that Tammy is dealing with is justifiable resentment. Steve Arterburn wrote about that in Healing is a Choice. It's where we are justified in our resentment, but that's not what Christ calls us to. What she's doing is she's taking offense to what her daughter has said in pain, and she wants to talk about Jesus all the time, which is great, but I want you to be more like Jesus, Tammy. I know that you've had a lot of pain and I want you to get free so that you can show up as a whole and healed woman, not in this pain.

Suzanne: As her girlfriend, what advice would you give myself and her other friends in our conversations with Tammy?

Sherry Denham Kefer: I would have you guys listen to this. I would have you guys sit down and together just say, "Hey, would you guys go to New Life and listen to the call in?" You're the brave friend. I want you guys to each listen to it. I want you to make some notes, maybe even look up triangulation.

I want you to love on your friend Tammy, but see if there's any movement for her to begin to understand the principles of what just happened to her with her daughter that she wasn't even aware of. That is being a friend because you're not fixing it. You're coming into her world and saying, "Can you learn? Will you listen? I just called in because I love you so much and this is what this person said, what this group of people said."

See if there's room for her to talk it through and grow, and then see if she'll respect what Becky suggested, which is to hold back the God talk. It's not a time for that. It's a time for mending, for healing, for saying, "I'm sorry. I just learned about this thing called triangulation and I totally triangulated you in and that was wrong of me." That's what's going to help heal. For her to admit and then have her daughter share back how much hurtful that was and for her to say, "You're right. I did harm you. I did hurt you. I'm so sorry. I was taking my anger and trying to get you on my team and that was completely wrong for me to do that."

Brian Perez: Becky, one other quick thing. We always hear the phrase, "Time heals all wounds." You said time could make things worse.

Becky Brown: Absolutely. If you leave a physical wound without treatment, it has the potential to get gangrene and you have to cut off whatever the thing is. Don't let things simmer thinking that just leaving it alone is going to make it better. Sometimes the healing causes more pain, but ultimately the goal is to get it cleaned out, just like your mom's heart, Sherry. Doing good work. Infection is a risk, but we don't want to leave it alone. We want to pay attention to it.

Brian Perez: Suzanne, thanks for calling on behalf of your friend Tammy. We have a Tammy on the other line. I'm pretty sure it's not the same Tammy. We'll talk to her when we come back.

Becky Brown: We are in the middle of a $300,000 matching gift challenge right now. People are hurting, and New Life is able to help people find hope in their lives. We've been doing it for over three decades, going on to our fourth decade. We want to continue to help people find their freedom. You want to be able to be part of that. Every gift will be matched up to $300,000. Every dollar matters. Give as much or as little as you're directed by God because I know that God's speaking to you if you're listening to us.

Brian Perez: They can give by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE or at newlife.com/match, or they can text the word "match" to 28950. We aren't too proud to beg here at New Life, but we're not going to do it in a distasteful manner. Don't worry about that.

Sherry Denham Kefer: I actually love to wait for this double match for me to give an extra gift because I love the idea of it being a double portion. If you are one of those people that likes to maximize what you do, if you want to give a double portion today, then do it. Write that check, call in. Our mailing address is on our website, newlife.com. Now is the time.

Brian Perez: Let's talk to Tammy in Baltimore, Maryland. To be clear, Tammy, this isn't the same Tammy that Suzanne was calling about. You are an entirely different Tammy. How are you? How can we help?

Tammy: I'm fine and a bit stressed. I'm a school bus driver and I'm looking to leave because of stress. I do have a rental property that I've had since 2008. I'm looking for that to be my income. But I have a neighbor that's over that way that is harassing me, has been harassing me for over 17 years. I'm caught between a rock and a hard place right now. I don't know whether to sell that property, leave the job. I've did everything I could to stop this neighbor from harassing me. Called the police, went to court. Nobody can help me.

Brian Perez: What kind of harassment are we talking about?

Tammy: Throwing poop in the yard, burned my fence down, painted my house, egged my house, pointed a gun out the window at me. Just noise-wise, over the period he put a kennel out there, dogs barking day and night. He had like roosters out there crowing.

Brian Perez: And you've put up with this for 17 years?

Tammy: Well, I called. They put up a no-trespassing sign. I got the trespassers to put cameras up.

Becky Brown: Tammy, to be clear, is this your rental property or is this where you live?

Tammy: That was where I lived, but I moved because of it. So now it's a rental property.

Becky Brown: What keeps you from selling it? You could take that money and invest it in another property. You lived there as long as you could and then you moved. You did everything that you could. You called the police, you did all of the things. What is it about this house that you are committed to the end about this house? Regardless of the stress in your job, this is a consistent source of pain for you.

Tammy: Praying to God, asking God to help me with this neighbor, praying for the neighbor. I'm thinking that if I kept the house, I'm thinking God is coming, God is coming, God is going to rescue me. He's going to help me. I'm really not ready to let it go yet. Sometimes when you take a step, I'm thinking maybe I may step before God.

Becky Brown: Tammy, that reminds me of a joke. There's a man, there's a flood coming and they all tell everyone in town you need to seek higher ground. He's like, "I'm going to be okay. God's going to save me." You know the joke, don't you, Tammy?

Tammy: Yes, I do. Somebody told me that joke before. That's why I'm laughing.

Becky Brown: That's it! Because he sends the police, he sends the helicopter, he sends the boat. He gets to heaven and the man says, "I thought you were going to save me!" He says, "I sent a police car, I sent a helicopter, I sent a boat!" The challenge that we have, Tammy, is what is it that we're blaming God for when actually he's inviting us to move forward, to take a step forward and not continue saying the same story over and over again.

Sherry Denham Kefer: Someone really loves you to bring you that story. But this is what I'm curious about. As a bus driver, you get on the bus every day and you open that door and you let the kids in and then you close the door. Kids come on, and there's kids that might be sad that day, they might be a little scared, they might be angry. But you open the door and close the door as they get on and go sit in their respective seats. What's your number one job from the time that you pick those kids up to the time that you take them to wherever you're dropping them off?

Tammy: Safety.

Sherry Denham Kefer: I knew you were going to say that. I have asked this of hundreds of people, and 99.9% of them say safety. You, more than anybody, know the importance of safety. What is it about you that has allowed this neighbor into your bus for 17 years? This neighbor has egged your bus, this neighbor has painted the bus, the neighbor has done bad things about you.

But you still, even though you've done all the stuff, I get it. Good for you. But there's this chance, this thing, idea that Becky said, why don't you just sell the property? Close the door of the bus and let that go. You said, "I'm not ready to do that." That's my curious question. I believe that there are times in our lives where spiritualizing something is a form of denial.

Spiritualizing something can be denial because we don't want to own it. We don't want to deal with it. This is where I think the lynchpin is for you, my dear, is I think we don't want to grieve it. You've been fighting for this property for 17 years. What is it that you don't want to let go of?

Tammy: Part of me don't and part of me do. Part of me do because of the harassment. Part of me don't.

Sherry Denham Kefer: But what's the part that doesn't? I'm doing surgery with you right now. What is the part of you, Tammy, that doesn't? Just say it.

Tammy: I know that if I leave this job, I'm going to have this as security. I'm going to have this as income.

Sherry Denham Kefer: But you're going to sell the money, Becky said, and reput it in another property. Throw something else out.

Tammy: No, I'm right there with Becky. I'm right there with Becky.

Sherry Denham Kefer: There's all these reasons. It may mean that selling it means you lost the fight with your egg-throwing, paint-slapping neighbor. I honestly think there's probably some kind of mental illness. Those are the kind of folks, sadly, who do things like that. They're really just mentally ill.

Becky Brown: If you keep it and you get a renter, guess what? Now your neighbor's going to be mean to the renter and the renter's going to be mad at you and so it's just going to perpetuate the problem.

Tammy: Well, I had renters! I just had a renter just move out in August. But they did, they steal stuff. They go in their mailbox and they stole stuff off the porch and flattened out the tires, throw nails in the yard to flatten the tires up. I am willing to sell! I just need somebody to help me to make the decision. I just because I'm looking to leave that job, and now I'm saying I could be looking for this to... but if I had this situation over here, I don't know what I'm going to do. But you just helped me! And I'm grateful and I'm thankful and I'm taking it and run with it! When I get off this phone, I'm going to run upstairs to my son and they say, "The counselor said move! Sell it!"

Becky Brown: Woohoo! We don't have to go through any more plagues. We're just going to leave Egypt.

Tammy: It ain't in the heart no more! That's all I needed was a professional to tell me, "Run!" Is this what God wants? "Run!" Yes! So I'm taking this from God. I'm taking you as coming from God, and I'm going to do exactly what you said and that's put it on the market as of tomorrow.

Becky Brown: Good, Tammy. And you call us back. We're going to be praying for an incredible rest of that story. We know that it's not as simple as that. We know that. But there are some things, like you just said Sherry, so many times we hyper-spiritualize and we put God on the hook. "If God's going to make it happen, it's just going to poof, it's going to happen," and it requires us to trust that sometimes the thing that we didn't expect to do, we're going to have to do. And then to watch God work, just like what you started the show with today, Sherry. You prayed, "Lord, bring somebody for my mom," and he did. So we're going to pray, Tammy, we're going to bring a buyer that's going to answer this prayer. Every house sells, by the way.

Brian Perez: Tammy, thank you so much for calling us today here on New Life LIVE. That was an enjoyable phone call. Let's go to Sean. He is in Roanoke, Virginia, watches us on YouTube. Hey there, Sean. How are you today? What led you to call us?

Sean: I've been struggling with sexual immorality, and I've been struggling with it for about my whole life, teenage into adulthood. But I've been married for about 17 years and it's been an issue. I'm at a point where I'm tired of hurting my wife and I don't know what to do anymore. I've thrown myself to the floor begging for some sort of change in my heart, something to get me started, to get on the right path.

And there always seems to be a foothold somewhere. I'm changing my life physically, like deleting accounts and stuff like that, but it always seems to find me somehow. I'm not quite sure what to do next. Rather than go off the grid, I don't know what else to do.

Becky Brown: Sean, are you doing this on your own?

Sean: I am.

Becky Brown: That's step one. You need others. Are we talking about a porn addiction?

Sean: Porn addiction, yes.

Becky Brown: We hear your struggle. We hear that. But one of the things that we tell every man that's in this struggle, you are not doing this alone. Porn is an isolating experience. It is a plague upon the world. It's everywhere. While your efforts are valiant, it is not the way to freedom. Every time you unlock one lock, there's going to be another lock. I'm not saying that to discourage you. I just want you to know that you're trying harder than you need to. There are other steps that we can take.

Brian Perez: Why is it that you're trying to do it on your own?

Sean: I don't know. I've always grew up with the idea that you do things. Don't ask for help, especially shameful things. You pick yourself up by the bootstraps and do what you need to do to get past it. But this is different. I nurtured this thing for a long time. I know that it's going to take time to change, but I don't even know where to start because I feel like I've started many times over and over and I can't find any relief.

Becky Brown: This phone call is a start, Sean. This phone call is a start.

Sherry Denham Kefer: Do you know, Sean, that you've been nurturing porn in this bottomless pit? I understand it because I'm a certified sex addiction therapist and I was married to someone who had a sex addiction. I have so much compassion towards you. As I'm hearing you, Sean, I'm hearing the despondency in your voice.

That 14-year-old has no idea what it feels like to be you 17 years later saying, "It's not what you think it is." It hasn't fulfilled you, no matter how much you've nurtured it. It hasn't fulfilled you. But let me tell you what you just told us is you weren't nurtured. You weren't seen. You weren't delighted in. You weren't loved. You weren't cared for. You weren't fought for. You weren't pursued.

There was kind of this latchkey kid feel, or maybe single parent growing up in a single parent family about you, that breaks my heart. You felt alone and unseen for a long time. That's why those glossy photos, those videos, all the stuff you know, you and I both know. I know what it looks like because I look at it when I am working with somebody and I need to look at it. All those slippery photos of when that person is looking at you through the camera, seducing you sexually. But the message that you're longing for is, "See me. Hear me. Love me. Want me."

You didn't have that when you were growing up. Then when your wife, your precious wife, finds out about it and things change in your marriage because she's wounded, she's got betrayal trauma. I am her, right? I've had her story. It renders her helpless and incapable of saying, "I want you. I need you. I desire you," because she's like a walking wounded. You're kind of at this point, it's a crossroad, my friend. I'm so stinking proud of you that you're saying, "I'm sick of this. It's not working and I want help."

July 10th, which is a stone's throw away, it's a couple weeks from now. Every Man's Battle is going to be in your neighborhood. It's going to be in Washington, it's going to be within driving distance. What's there? A whole bunch of guys that want to lock arms with you and say, "Hey, bud, you don't have to do this anymore. We're going to do it with you."

Brian Perez: A whole bunch of guys who probably thought, "I'll get through this. I can tackle this. This isn't a problem." It probably started like Sean used the perfect word, "nurturing" it, because he probably didn't think it was going to get out of hand. He's married and he sees what it's doing to his wife as well. Becky, what further thoughts do you have?

Becky Brown: One of the core values of New Life is connection. We use another phrase, "redemptive relationships." Sean's expression of isolation, we know that addiction in all of its forms is an intimacy disorder. It is what you were talking about, Sherry, not being seen, not being connected with, not being in a relationship where you feel safe, trusted, and heard.

The sad thing is in your marriage, Sean, I'm going to talk to you just like you're still here. Your marriage isn't beyond hope, but your wife is also suffering and you know that. The burden of guilt and shame is what you're carrying, and then that keeps you from asking for help. It's a cycle that keeps so many people stuck in their lives.

What we do here at New Life is we connect with you. We come alongside of you and we show you the way. You are not obligated to do the next step, but we certainly know that the next steps can change your life. You can experience freedom and be free to help others because that's what recovery's all about is, because I've been there, I know the way, I can show you as well.

When you listen to this, and I'm sure you will, just know that there is redemption available, there is freedom available. We've helped many men. I would encourage you to listen to our Every Man's Battle podcast. It is a very simple way. You can download it wherever you get your podcast or watch it on YouTube. It's JJ West, who's our speaker at Every Man's Battle, and Doug Burns, who's one of our lead speakers there. Both of them have led so many men to the life of freedom and connection. The stories that they share as well as the next steps can really encourage you in your journey. It's not a replacement for doing real hard work, but it is a great introduction for what we talk about and what we do for men who are struggling with their sexual integrity.

Brian Perez: You can find that podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Again, it's called Every Man's Battle. Then we've got the Every Man's Battle intensive. It starts three weeks from today. There's an early bird discount if you sign up by next Friday. If there's a need-based scholarship, if you really need to go to this intensive but you're not sure if you can afford it, we can help you with that. You can find out more when you call us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE.

For any woman who's been affected by the effects of her husband who's maybe cheated on her or hooked on pornography, whatever the case might be, we have a virtual gathering coming up in just a few weeks, August 1st. It's called Rescue. You can get the details about that at newlife.com. Also on newlife.com, Sherry's book, Intimate Deception. She wrote this book a few years ago. It's available in the newlife.com store.

So many ways that we can help you at New Life Ministries. Thanks for watching, thanks for listening, thanks for praying for everybody who calls into the show. We'll see you at church on Sunday and talk to you on Monday.

New Life: Every day we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression, all kinds of ways. Wouldn't you love to be part of a rescue team? Don't miss your opportunity to be part of something that changes lives every single day because every one matters. Your generosity helps find them.

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Thank you so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to newlife.com to find out more information. And thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing, and we're so glad that you're here.