New Life LIVE

Steve Arterburn: Welcome to the New Life Live podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's word, counselors and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: Hello and welcome to New Life Live. I'm your host Brian Perez here in the studio with Doctors Jill Hubbard and Alice Benton. They are clinical psychologists and they are ready to help you with whatever it is you're going through, exhaustion or overwhelm or so much more. We're going to talk to Jan and Carla in just a moment, but Dr. Jill, what's on your mind to start us off?

Jill Hubbard: Good to be with you today. I heard a story a few weeks ago in church that has really sat with me. I think this was the pastor's goal, that we had to really wrestle. It made me think about how many stories we hear on New Life that have so many layers to them that are hard and difficult. It's like not just one person died in the family, but multiple people died.

Life is hard and so we hear these hard stories daily. I think we all have to fight that urge to want to write the script for God and have Him sign off on it. It's like okay, God, because we're trying to make things right inside of ourselves. How can all these terrible things happen? Okay, God, here's how it's going to play out and then could you just sign off? That isn't usually how God works.

There were these two brothers. They were young and they were drinking, things like that. One brother got his life together and actually became a pastor. The other brother continued into addiction. The pastor brother prayed for his brother and said, "God, when he comes to the Lord, people are going to be saved because he's going to have a great testimony when You heal him of addiction."

Then the brother had a seizure and ended up in a wheelchair. The pastor brother said, "God, now it's really going to be a miracle. You're not only going to heal him of addiction, but he's going to walk again and then thousands will come to the Lord." Later, the brother died. It was so sad. It's like, Lord, what are You doing?

The pastor was referencing the book of Habakkuk and how Habakkuk is crying out to the Lord. "Where are You? Do You not see the suffering of the people and all the violence of our enemies?" The Lord said, "You're going to be astonished by what I'm going to do." Then He brings more violence. It's just really puzzling and so often I feel like this is our lives, that we don't understand and we want God to do something.

There are two truths that go along with this story. One is that God's silence is not God's absence. We can't always see what God is doing and I know we all know that. It's a simple truth, but at the same time, I think it's important to know because when we're in the midst of it, we can forget that. We can lose sight of that and wonder where God is. Then to remember God always does what you would do if you knew what He knows. That really hit me. But God, this doesn't make sense. Why would You not want this wonderful testimony? Why would You not want marriages reunited?

First of all, it's okay to complain to God. We need to lament and then, just like Habakkuk, we need to go to our watchtower and we need to actively wait and listen and seek out because God often takes a long time, but He's never late.

Alice Benton: If God feels absent to you in your life, and so many of my clients are telling me that right now because they're in the midst of the suffering and they're Christians and they're dedicated and God doesn't seem to be answering their prayers, we need to take that pain to other people. God often loves us through the hands and feet of Jesus, which is the body of Christ.

Brian Perez: Sometimes it's the ears of Jesus and that's what we want to be to you. Call in and talk to us with whatever it is that you're going through. We've got a couple of callers on hold that we're going to get to right after the break here on New Life Live. Thanks for watching and listening today.

Brian Perez: Let's begin our time on the phones on today's show with Carla who is in New York and she is listening on the New Life app. Carla, thank you for downloading the New Life app and thank you for calling in today. How can we help you?

Carla: Hi. The doctors are in the house.

Brian Perez: Yes, they are. I think you stole my line there, Carla, but that's okay. I'm sure I stole it from somebody else too, so it's all right.

Carla: Do you need a co-host?

Brian Perez: Perfect.

Carla: All right. Laughter aside, I'm calling because I'm really struggling in my family. I have an adult daughter, 28. She still lives at home with us due to financial reasons. Then my husband, and we've been married for almost 30 years.

Both of them have been diagnosed and struggle with depression and anxiety disorder. They are being treated, but it's a struggle to be a family member when you don't have it. I'm grateful to God that I don't because I watch them and it's just torment.

I find myself struggling with knowing when to push and when to back off because my understanding of mental illness is it's a context, but it's not an excuse. At the same time, you have to have compassion because to have the degree of depression where you don't feel like getting out of bed, I've heard Dr. Jill talk about sometimes you have to do for them what they are just unable to do for themselves. It's that fine line between enabling and pushing just the right amount.

My question to you all is how have I lived with this for years and I find sometimes that it's a struggle for me to not build up some resentment. How do I know when it's an excuse or when it's legitimate? For example, they spend a lot of time on their screens. I would even question whether they're addicted or not. Household responsibilities get waylaid because they don't feel like it or it's a struggle. It's one of those balances that I'm struggling to find and would love some advice. I have looked into NAMI for a resource for myself, but unfortunately, the timeframes don't coincide because I work. Maybe there are other resources out there you all can recommend.

Jill Hubbard: Carla, this is difficult, especially having two people in your household struggling this way. You're right, it is a fine line that at times they just can't do things, and then at other times, the very remedy that would help them is the very thing they don't feel like doing. When people struggle with this, a lot is based on how they feel. As adults, we don't always get to just indulge our feelings. We have to do lots of things we don't feel like doing.

Sometimes you may want to find a way to say whether this is a 10-plus day or is this a five-level day in terms of how they're doing. Something that lets you know if it is really bad or is it just the ongoing for them. Actually getting up and moving does help shift depression. Getting out of the house, that's why I tell people you have to leave the house every day. You have to get up and you have to get dressed. Maybe it's that if all you can do is walk to the mailbox and back, that's something. You start small, depending on how it is.

With the screens, it's easier to interact with a screen. When you're depressed, you're seeking dopamine. You're trying to lift your mood, so screens can do that or they give off a false sense of that. What happens in what they're struggling with is there's a dopamine deficiency. To be able to talk about that, they're actually trying to do something. For the anxiety, they're trying to rest their frontal lobes because they're really anxious, as well as lift their mood. They're using this.

The problem is it just doesn't really work that well. Over time, you end up feeling worse about yourself when you're just doom scrolling. You're scrolling looking for something, but you realize nothing really helps. You may have to talk about that with them instead of being down on them for being on their screens. Give them a little understanding about it, but ask them how well that's working for them.

Just like other methods people go to, like alcohol, they use alcohol to lift their mood and calm their anxiety and then eventually it makes people more depressed. The long-term effects are not getting them the results they need. Maybe you say we're going to try to do a family walk and we're going to just walk around the block in the evening or something and see if you can start to get them to engage in that slowly. They need things that are going to shift their frame of mind. Being out with people, you have to rise a little bit, but you also get a boost from that.

Any time you can connect with people, your brain lights up and it's a good thing. Being able to just talk to them about what they are doing to help themselves, what works for them and what doesn't, and that you understand some days are just days where you're just surviving them and so that day's just a wash. On another day, you might be able to do more, for them to start to be more aware of what actually is life-giving versus keeping them down.

Alice Benton: I would just add to that that I'd have you make sure you praise them that they're both getting help because so often in situations like this, the person in your shoes is telling us they're not even willing to get help. It's still not enough, but they recognize they have a struggle and they have the humility to accept professional assistance.

Then I'd have you ask them, "Would you allow me to encourage you, remind you, or push you as part of helping you fight for your freedom, fight for your mental health?" In that, Carla, I'd have you consider how did you push, encourage, or support them in the past. If it's an area of wounding, you might not be the one that they can receive that from today, but there's always repair work that can be done if there is historical injury in that area.

See if you can get them to buy in. "Would you like me to encourage you in any way?" Then you might, Carla, have three areas where you really wish they would let you, whether it's we all work towards moderate screen use, the exercise, or going out looking for work. "Would you let me speak into any one of these areas of your life? If so, how do you want me to do it? Face-to-face, texting you, a written note, just prayer support?" Give them several options to see if they can accept the help that you want to give them.

Carla: I think those are great ideas.

Jill Hubbard: I just want to add another thing. I don't know how much this will help or not, but there are foods that you can serve them that help to boost dopamine. You can look that up, but things like chicken and avocados and oatmeal. If they're going for a lot of the carbs, leafy greens, things that are naturally healthier for us can help. You can do that without even telling them if you're the person cooking.

Carla: I was going to ask how much involvement, because it's taxing and wearing on me as well. I try not to let it affect my mental health and my well-being. How does the non-affected family member protect their heart and their well-being?

Alice Benton: That's a great question because a lot of times we're around depressed people and we tend to go down to their mood. I think it's making sure that you are building a life outside their depression. That may be your involvement in the community, you pursuing your own hobbies and your own interests because you're right, you need to get refueled so that you can keep caregiving, tolerating, trying to be patient with your family members.

To go back to one of your earlier questions, I don't know that there is any metric that helps us identify if this is an excuse right now or is this legitimate pain that they're in. I think it's honestly a case-by-case guessing game, but opening that up into a discussion of "Family, do you ever struggle with maybe you should do something but you choose not to, and of course you feel bad all the time? Can that be an open question that we have with one another?"

Jill Hubbard: Do you notice at times do you have compassion for them versus times you feel resentful? Sometimes that's a clue, especially if we're taking care of ourselves and you're getting out there and having other stimulation. You can always invite them to join you, but don't feel responsible if they don't. You don't have to stay at home and be depressed with them.

Remember too, we always want to—it's really common to want to talk people out of their depression. "Oh, it's really not that bad. Let's look on the bright side." That's the worst thing you can do. Leaning in, understanding, "Oh, this seems like a really bad day today. I'm so sorry." Then they may say, "Well, it's not the worst day." They'll move towards you if you move towards them and as they feel understood, that actually helps their depression as well. Carla, please make sure you have enough of an outlet where you're able to be angry, sad, disappointed with God, the marriage, your daughter, all of it, with a listening ear, a friend who has a listening ear outside of your family.

Brian Perez: Or one of our network of counselors and coaches. You can find one at newlife.com or stay on hold and we'll put you in touch with one there in the New York area. I'm sure there's quite a few. Let's take another call now, but a quick reminder that we're in the middle of a $300,000 matching gift challenge. Whatever you can do, if you've already given, thank you so much.

We want to thank the people who did the match to begin with, who challenged our viewers and listeners. It's because of them that we're doing this and so we're looking for you to come alongside us and help as well. You've heard all the calls that we've taken this week, all the people we've helped, and we want to help more for several decades more as we've already done it for decades. Let's talk to Jan. Jan is in Seattle, Washington. Hi there, Jan. Thanks for calling in today to New Life Live.

Jan: Thanks so much for taking my call. You're always there when I need you. I have an adult daughter and she just told me that her younger sister told her that the brother between the two of them sexually molested her in her early years, which could have been around age 10 or younger. I don't know what to do about it. It's an elephant in the room now that nobody is talking about.

Alice Benton: What a miserable thing to find out and of course to feel confused. I'm sure you're angry, sad, heartbroken, and then what are you supposed to do with this information? It wasn't told to you by your child that was the victim. It was told to you by the sister. Jan, how are you holding up having this information but not knowing what to do? How are you feeling?

Jan: I cry a lot and I am in counseling. My counselor meeting is Thursday. I'm just really asking God to show me and to let go of everything and leave it in His hands. That's where I'm at, so I appreciate your help. This is what happened to my younger daughter, but it was at the hands of my son as well. That's a double whammy in how you deal with that.

Jill Hubbard: Did the daughter that told you, did she tell you to keep it in confidence?

Jan: No, she said, "I just want to know if you want to know about what's going much on and then I don't want to talk about it." That's why I'm calling.

Alice Benton: Is your son in your daughters' lives and is he in yours?

Jan: Yes, we're all a very pretty close family, but this is new information that has never been spoken of before. The daughter that was saying her brother molested her recently lost her son too, so she's very vulnerable, a 20-year-old son actually.

Jill Hubbard: Who just passed away recently?

Jan: Her son died of an overdose recently. My grandson. That's the sixth death that we're all encountering as a family. We're a grieving family that don't even know how to grieve together.

Jill Hubbard: Just the layers and how hard it is. It's like, God, what are You doing?

Alice Benton: Jan, when you're faced with yet another family trauma, what is your normal tendency? Do you want to isolate and keep it to yourself? Are you the kind of person that wants to go in and address it?

Jan: Go in and address it, but I don't know how. I'm in counseling and EMDR and a regular psychological counselor and it's just so new. It's not getting results yet and it takes time.

Jill Hubbard: It does. Did you ask your daughter that told you what she was hoping for in telling you? I mean, certainly you would want to know, but she's telling you and then it sounds like she doesn't want you talking about it. Does your younger daughter know that you know?

Jan: No, neither of them know yet.

Jill Hubbard: The daughter that told you was needing a place to put it as well. she's asking you to contain her in dealing with this, which is hard. I think letting her know this is a hard position because my natural bent would be I want to go in and hug my daughter and talk to her about it. I want to find out what was up with my son that I missed. I'm waiting here because you're asking me to, but I'm wondering what the game plan is here and how I can really support you all.

Jan: All I know is that she said that her brother doesn't remember and how could that happen? It was during the drug era that he was in.

Jill Hubbard: Well, that's probably how he might not remember. Either he doesn't want to remember or he doesn't. How much of an age difference is there between the brother and the sister?

Jan: Four years. He just said that they played house but said, "I would never do anything like that." I was with him with his family and we don't talk about it. I'm not going to talk about it until I have some help from you guys.

Alice Benton: They already confronted their brother, at least somebody confronted him. Of course, more heartbreak that he denies it or doesn't remember it and that just adds more upset for you. My suggestion would be that putting this into prayer, that you would tell the daughter who told you, "I can't just hold this information. I need to check on my youngest daughter." I am going to let her know that I know and I'm going to ask what I can do and what she needs from me.

Even if your older daughter says no, don't, I'd say I just need to. I cannot stand by silently with this. It's been a secret all these years. You guys are a close family, you've been through a lot. It needs to not be a secret. You can respect that it's not going to be a dinner table conversation, but at least an acknowledgment. Obviously you weren't able to be there for daughter when it was happening. You didn't know. You don't want to re-abandon daughter now. You want to say, "I wasn't there then because I didn't know. I want to be here now, but I'll respect how you need me to be here for you."

Brian Perez: Jan, did you say your son had a family of his own? Is that part of your concern too? Are there children?

Jan: No, it just seems like it was that happened at that time and nothing anything like has happened since then. I think it's a God thing that it's all being out in the open one by one. One's telling another and one is bringing it out in the open. My daughter, the younger daughter and I are the only committed Christians in the family right now.

Alice Benton: Then I think after you alert your older daughter, the next step is to invite your daughter to have a conversation letting her know I've heard about the trauma you went through and I want to be a listener to you. Jan, it will be so important not to defend yourself in that conversation, which I don't know if as a mom I could handle and so bringing in a third party, having a family counselor or your counselor if your daughter's willing to help guide that conversation because it's going to be so tough to listen to and not to let your emotion override hers. There needs to be room for her.

Brian Perez: Jan, stay on the phone. We want to send you a registration to a webinar that we're going to be doing in a few weeks. We'll tell all of you about the webinar, it's about grief. We'll be right back here on New Life Live.

Brian Perez: Thanks for watching and listening today. We've got Jan on the phone from Seattle, Washington. You still with us, Jan?

Jan: Yes.

Brian Perez: Alice mentioned the webinar that we've got coming up. It's called Grief: Hope and Healing After Loss. It's happening on July 16th and Alice, you're going to be hosting this webinar. Why would it be beneficial for Jan and everyone else watching and listening?

Alice Benton: It has to do with how Dr. Jill started the show today, that our stories we hear here on New Life and all of you that are listening and haven't called in to share your story, you probably have multiple ongoing losses and that doesn't always mean death, but of course we all experience death as well.

If we are not purposefully processing our grief and moving through it, it is very likely impairing our ability to be in relationship with other people and with God, to feel joy, to live out the purpose that God has given us in our lives. We want to help you honor the losses that you are going through and then strengthen you to be able to keep moving forward because God always has good plans to prosper us.

Brian Perez: The easiest way to find out more about this webinar is to text the word webinar to 28950. We'll text you back a link to register and we'll also include a tip sheet called Six Common Myths About Grief and the Truth to Set You Free. Happening on July 16th, which is a Thursday. If you can't be with us on July 16th, register anyway because we'll send you a playback link that you can watch the webinar for seven days afterwards. You can also find out more about this at newlife.com or by calling us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE.

Let's talk to Barbara now. Barbara is in Saginaw, Michigan listening on WSNL. Welcome.

Barbara: Hi. I have a boyfriend who I've been dating exclusively for about seven years. About every other month, he goes out to dinner with an old coworker who happens to be a female. He says we're just friends and he tells me bits and pieces about it, but I've told him that I don't think that's appropriate and he does not see anything wrong with that. He says it's a matter of me needing to trust him, but I feel like it's disrespectful for him to continue doing this knowing how it makes me feel. I'm just trying to decide am I being too sensitive, too controlling, or is this a legitimate concern?

Brian Perez: Did you say this is a former coworker of his?

Barbara: Yes.

Alice Benton: Barbara, in your seven years of dating, I think this is a very good question to have. What does this mean for me now in dating and if we want to get married, how will this affect us? Is this important to make a big deal out of it? Barbara, have you seen a selfishness or a lack of consideration in him in other areas? Do you know of any pornography use or history of struggle with sexual integrity in his life?

Barbara: No, not that I'm aware of. Maybe I should say maybe like 15-20 years ago. He has hinted at certain things like that, just struggles with pornography, I guess, and things when he was married, a few things that were probably not the best. Just sexual things that I wouldn't think would be good in a marriage.

Alice Benton: Did they lead to the ending of his marriage?

Barbara: Indirectly.

Alice Benton: Has he gone through recovery work and does he talk—is he willing to talk openly about what his previous mistakes have been and how he's a different man today and why?

Barbara: No, not really. He does not want to talk openly about that. He just sort of says that was then, this is now, you just need to learn to trust me on these things and I'm telling you there's nothing to it other than just seeing an old friend and just discussing what they discuss really. I did ask him, "Do you guys talk about me?" He said, "Well, I don't think so." And I said, "Well, what do you mean you don't think so?" He said, "Well, maybe a little bit." See, I don't think that's appropriate either.

Jill Hubbard: Barbara, have you ever met the woman?

Barbara: One time I met her along with him. We had a situation where I was helping her with something because he had her give me a call and I was helping her with the situation she was in and I needed to meet with her for a signature on some notary paperwork.

Jill Hubbard: What did you think of her? Did it raise any red flags meeting her? What is her situation? Is she married or dating?

Barbara: No, she's single, she's widowed. They are approximately the same age. I am 10 years older. I did think that when we met, I did kind of feel like she was being a little flirtatious toward him. I didn't say anything, I just kind of thought maybe that's just kind of the way she behaves all the time.

Jill Hubbard: Has there ever been—I don't know how much he's told you—did they ever have a point in their friendship where they had to acknowledge that it was a friendship? In opposite sex relationships, some people say you can never be friends. I don't think that's 100% true, but I think you have to get to a point where you acknowledge no, we're friends, there isn't anything romantic here. Do you know anything about that in terms of their friendship?

Barbara: He does say we're just friends, she knows that, we're just friends. I said, "Well, how do you know she knows that? She may consider this almost a date when you're meeting her, taking her out to dinner, just the two of you, taking her out for her birthday dinner to a nice place." How do you know how she's interpreting that?

Alice Benton: Barbara, I think you're smelling smoke here and I think that means that there really is something to be concerned about. There's a part of you that wants to check out that smoke you're smelling, but there's another part that wants to act like it's not happening, hoping that it won't be a problem. So it's good that you're calling on this because I think it is a red flag.

More so than getting together with her for the dinner, I think there's a lack of care that it affects you. He's not willing to adjust it over seven years. He's got to see this gal every other month. He's not willing to make an adjustment even though this hurts you and it scares you and that worries me about his character. It makes me think I don't know that he's going to be the kind of husband that will bend to care for you and that will sacrifice when you need him to.

Even more concerning to me than that is he will not talk about his historical problems like pornography use, which are a really big deal, which probably did destroy the marriage, but he's not really talking about it. Those problems, they don't go away without major recovery work and effort. They go underground and they can hide for a long time, but I don't think it's hiding. I think it's kind of in plain sight that he is willing to have relationships with other women, whether through pornography or getting together for dates, and it doesn't matter to him very much how it affects you because he's not changing it. Barbara, tell me how you're feeling with me sounding the alarm bells here.

Barbara: Well, I think you're sort of saying what's been going on in the back of my mind is that I don't want to be overly crazy about this, but at the same time I do feel like if I'm telling you that I don't like this and that it doesn't make—it just doesn't seem appropriate to me that if he said something like that to me that I would say, "Well, I didn't realize that, I'm sorry, that's probably something that I shouldn't even be doing."

Jill Hubbard: He's defensive about it. That is the problem in light of his history, it's that he's defensive about it and he's protecting it. It would be different if he said, "I'm so sorry it makes you uncomfortable. Why don't you join us? And the three of you are friends together." That's completely different.

Brian Perez: We'll continue our conversation with Barbara when we come back here on New Life Live because it is break time. Thanks so much for watching and listening and for telling your friends about it. Also pray for the people who call in with courage to call in and share their what the struggles that they're going through. We'll be right back.

Brian Perez: Thanks for watching and listening today. We've been talking to Barbara and Barbara, our hearts are heavy for you with what you're going through with your boyfriend. Tell us, are you hoping to get married and is marriage something you two talk about?

Barbara: We don't talk about it very often, but we have talked about it. I did ask him last night, "If we were married, would you continue to do this?" And he said, "Well, I don't know, probably not."

Brian Perez: Is there travel involved? Does she live nearby or does he go out of his way to see her?

Barbara: He goes out of his way, but about like 30 miles. I mean, not massively, but they don't live real close together. I don't live real close to him either. I mean, I live about 50 miles from him. He does drive here pretty much every weekend and we spend a day together. We don't live together, we don't sleep together. It's not like that. He will drive to pick her up or something, yes.

Jill Hubbard: It is interesting that you've been dating seven years and he seems comfortable with that. What about you? Seven years is a long time, especially when you're older. Is this maybe an arrangement he likes and maybe he just has several women that he spends time with? Maybe he's not taking it as seriously as a commitment because it's just been an ongoing routine that you've settled into.

Barbara: Yeah, I would agree that we are kind of just in a routine of he comes down Saturday and then maybe he comes back on Sunday. Usually he'll come back on Sunday, we go to church together, spend a day together, go to dinner or something, have dinner. I don't truly think that there's any other female person involved other than this old friend.

Jill Hubbard: Right, and let's say it is just a friendship. They just have been longtime friends. Again, though, his lack of making you feel secure, helping you to see that it truly is a friendship and that he just feels a kinship to her or something and feels a need to reach out to her. Part of that would be, like I said, maybe including you on some of those times that he goes.

Men are not as security-minded as women are, but we women, we need to feel secure. I think talking to him about that, that you guys have different needs, and when he minimizes your feelings about this, it's hurtful and feels like he doesn't care that you feel safe in this relationship. For him to just say, he's almost offended and says, "Well, you just need to trust me." Well, that's well and good, but because of the defensiveness about it, it kind of raises an eyebrow for me. It's hard to trust, it's hard to just trust, I'm having a reaction to it. Barbara, were you married before?

Barbara: Yes, I was married for 30 years and I've been divorced for 20.

Jill Hubbard: Was there any infidelity in your marriage or betrayal?

Barbara: Yes, definitely was a lot of betrayal.

Jill Hubbard: Okay, and so I might remind him of that. Some of this may be purely from my past, but because of that, I need in a partner someone who understands that I've really been wounded in this way and I need someone who's willing to go above and beyond to help me feel like I can trust them because it's that consistent trust, that consistency in behavior that helps somebody heal when you're in a new relationship.

Brian Perez: Are there any benefits to this relationship? You called in and you told us what he's doing and people might be asking, "Why are you with this guy? Why have you been with him for the past seven years?"

Barbara: Well, I guess companionship is what I would basically sum it up at.

Alice Benton: Barbara, I'm going to share a couple thoughts with you to apply going forward. This tends to be true when we're dating, we're getting the best version of each other because that's when we're putting our best foot forward. After marriage, we usually get a little lazy and we go back to our old default ways. If you're hoping he'll stop this in marriage and he says, "Yeah, I might, I don't know," you're already getting the best version of him now unless he were to get help and get into recovery.

I have found that one of the strongest aspects to look for in dating is do we both know we're broken and are we willing to work on it? Because everybody's imperfect, but do you know it and are you getting professional help for it so that we become the best version of ourselves?

I'm worried for you, Barbara, that you doubt your radar. I think you try to minimize or turn off your radar sometimes and I think you doubt your worth. Why wouldn't you after going through 30-year marriage where there was infidelity? So your woundedness can keep you vulnerable to being victimized again. A good way to proceed would be to let your boyfriend know, "I was talking with some counselors even, I called a radio show about this because I know we get in these disagreements. I don't know if I'm too sensitive, maybe I should just trust you, I'm not sure, but my history and your history are causing us some conflict. Would you be willing to see a couples counselor with me for a few sessions?" If he's willing, there's a lot of hope here. If he's not willing, you're going to keep getting what you're getting for the length of your relationship, I believe. Or let's go to a relationship class, seriously dating class. There are them out there.

Brian Perez: Barbara, thanks for calling us today here on New Life Live. You mentioned that you had been a victim of betrayal when you were married. We have an online gathering happening on Saturday, August 1st that we'd really encourage you to register for. It's called Rescue: Your First Step Toward Healing. Maybe you've already gone through something similar in the sense of the recovery work or gone through counseling or therapy for this, but you might want to check this out.

It's led by licensed counselor Laura Mangin McDonald. It's an experience that combines biblical encouragement, clinical insight, and connection with other women who understand. It was created for women who have never taken the first step toward their own healing after betrayal and is designed to help you find your footing again. After discovering sexual betrayal, pornography, or broken trust in their marriage, many women carry confusion, grief, fear, anxiety, and isolation and often they're trying to carry it all alone. Well, imagine spending a few hours with women who actually understand what it is you're going through.

If you're hurting today, pay attention to that nudge in your heart and register for this online gathering, it's a virtual gathering, Saturday, August 1st from 10:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. Central Time. We have an early bird rate that expires July 17th, so you've got plenty of time to register for this. Saturday, August 1st, you will definitely want to join us for that. Then we've also got three online courses that are coming up in just a few weeks. They are Lose It for Life, Healing Is a Choice, and Take Your Life Back. You can find out more about those at newlife.com or by calling us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Before we end the show today, I want to do a shoutout to our beloved Steve Arterburn. It is his birthday.

Jill Hubbard: Happy birthday. As well as my husband's.

Brian Perez: Happy birthday, guys. Yes, indeed. Happy birthday to you guys. Steve, thank you for answering the call for that vision to start this ministry decades ago. A long time ago. God bless you. Hope to meet you someday. We'll talk to you next time here on New Life Live.

Steve Arterburn: Thanks so much for listening. We hope something you've heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember, we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to newlife.com to find more information and thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing and we're so glad that you're here.