New Life LIVE

Brian Perez: Welcome to the New Life LIVE podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's Word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Hello and welcome to New Life LIVE. I'm your host, Brian Perez, excited to be in the studio with you today because we're going to be here for two hours, and we really want to help you with whatever it is you're going through. You've got some depression going on or grief, anxiety, relationship issues with your marriage, or maybe you're dating or thinking about dating? Give us a call. 1-800-229-3000 is our number. I'm joined here by Sherry Denham-Keffer, a doctor of marriage and family therapy, and licensed professional clinical counselor Becky Brown, who's also the president of New Life Ministries. Becky, what's on your mind to start us off today?

Becky Brown: I got a new pair of glasses yesterday. When I first put them on, it was like, oh, I could see everything. It was amazing. But as the hours went on, it got a little bit weird. I wear progressive lenses, so there are spots that I can see clearer and some that are just not so clear. Especially when you get a new pair of glasses with these vision changes that have to happen, it takes time to get used to them. The optometrist says don't switch back to the old lenses because your eyes and your brain need time to adjust to this new vision.

You might guess where I'm going to go with this little story. Change requires willingness, time, experiencing discomfort, and recognizing that our view of things may be distorted. This isn't to say you have to put on any glasses that somebody gives you. You don't have to just suffer through it. But what I want to invite you into is just being curious about why do I resist that change or what am I seeing that I don't identify with?

The funny thing about trying on new glasses is, first of all, I can't see without my glasses or my contact lenses. So then you get this whole room full of beautiful frames and you get to try them on, but when you can't see, you're putting them on and you can't see because the lenses are plastic. They're clear. Brian, you know what I'm talking about, right? You're left to trust the person you don't even know. Oh, those look really good. It's like, you've only seen me for about five minutes. Anyway, you get what I'm talking about, but it's so funny because you can't see without your glasses and you're selecting something that's going to be front and center for probably the next year or so, and it's a pretty good investment.

So what do we do when we ask a counselor or friend or a coach for advice on a problem that we're having? We see things a certain way and based on our view of the world, culture, education, etc. To see things a different way requires willingness, time, discomfort, and sometimes it can be frustrating and we just give up thinking that things will ever change. I've actually known people who have kept the same prescription on their glasses because they don't want to go through the process of the exam and getting new glasses.

I know that sounds ridiculous, but think about how many times we settle for things in our life because we're not willing to go, you know what? I wonder if I could see that a different way. I wonder if there is another way that I could consider. It reminds me of a story in the Old Testament about Naaman, the big commander who has leprosy and he's told to go do something, and he rejects it. He's like, why would I do that? Well, then some of his officials go, well, if they told you something else that you agreed with, wouldn't you do it? Well, then he goes and does the thing and he's instantly healed. So the message of the story is if you're not seeing things clearly, you may be having to do some things that don't feel comfortable right at first. But it's worth getting to the other side. I want to encourage you today if there's a place in your life for new glasses, we can help you. We won't tell you that the frames look bad. We promise that we'll lead you in the right direction. Right, Brian?

Brian Perez: That's right, we will. So give us a call. Andrea, we're going to talk to you as soon as we come back from the break on New Life LIVE. To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

So much going on here at New Life LIVE: webinars, intensives, courses, so much more. What I suggest you do is go to newlife.com, sign up for our monthly newsletter, and then you'll always be in the know of what we're doing. You can also follow us on social media. That's a great way to keep track of what's going on here at New Life LIVE. 1-800-229-3000, and if I can just add a quick word of advice, if you are out and you're going to go get some new frames, and yeah, like what Becky just said right now that you try them on, they're plastic, you can't see without your prescription, take a selfie. Take several selfies, and then you can see what you look like. Sorry, Becky, I didn't know. But yeah, so I did that last time and it turned out okay. I like your frames. Thank you.

All right, let's go to the phones now. Here is Andrea, who's calling us from Santa Clara, California, listening on the New Life app. Thank you, Andrea, for calling 1-800-229-3000.

Andrea: Thank you. Good morning and thank you for taking my call. I've been in an eight-year marriage that has been filled with infidelity on my husband's part. We have two children, four and two years old. I am afraid to divorce because I never want to be divorced. But now my husband has a newborn baby, and I am made to feel guilty for leaving. I know what to do, but again, I feel guilty for wanting to leave the marriage because it's been eight years and I don't know what else to do.

Brian: So your husband's infidelity led to him getting another woman pregnant?

Andrea: Yes, he has a baby out of wedlock.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: Girl, I'm so heartbroken for you. You never imagined in a million years that this would happen to you. Even though there's been infidelities, the last thing you thought would happen is that he would get another woman pregnant. What's your question for us, just so I know and we know what you're looking for?

Andrea: Well, my question is why do I still feel guilty for wanting to divorce and wanting to have a healthier lifestyle, a healthier life when this is not what I wanted? I feel guilty. I feel like I'm sinning. I just feel guilty.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: What's so interesting to me is, one, you have biblical grounds to divorce. This is immorality and it's one of the clear reasons that God says, hey, if you choose, you can leave the marriage. So I'm not sure where the guilt is coming from. It's either coming from outside with something or someone judging you or it's coming from the inside, you feeling guilty about something you did or didn't do. Do you know which one of those fits best for you?

Andrea: Both. One, because we are leaders in the church and we have such a big responsibility in the church. And then two, I come from a really close family where everyone is still married and they've had their ups and downs and no one ever divorces.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: I'm grateful that you've come from a family that works things through. And yet the fact that your husband has been acting out and not repenting, not turning around, is he still serving in church leadership? Are you guys still in that position of leadership right now?

Andrea: Yes, and our pastors know.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: Can I be confused with you? I'm like, how is it that your pastors are okay with him having a baby out of wedlock and he's still serving in leadership? That just is very upside down, broken, confused, and whack-a-doodle. So tell me about that.

Andrea: So I think one, because he knows how to speak really well and it just really entangles everyone and makes it seem like, oh okay, I'm going to be better, I'm going to do better, I'm going to stop. So this last incident, the pastor is aware that he has a child. It's not confirmed that he is the dad, but my husband says I'm pretty sure it is. Basically we're told, work it out, go to counseling, they'll sit him down for a bit and then they'll bring him back to teaching, to preaching. So that confuses me. I was like, okay well if the church says it's okay then I should be okay. But then all in me is like this is not okay.

Becky Brown: Oh, Andrea, you called on the right day. Go Sherry.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: Well, go Becky, because you know scripture. All three of us know scripture pretty well. If someone is in church leadership, there are verses in the Bible that say that they need to maintain their integrity in their own household and their own families before they can step into any kind of preaching, teaching, or just even leadership. So if we voted, if the three of us voted whether he should be standing up or doing anything in church leadership, we would ask him to step down.

It's very confusing as to why the pastors are not waking up to that biblical principle. This is the thing. You're so in my in-bin right now. When I say you're in my in-bin, it means hey, Andrea, guess what? I have a story and you have a story and my story included being married to a pastor who was sexually acting out. It started with pornography and then it went into affairs and prostitutes. But while we were in church ministry, we were serving in leadership, but it was hidden from the staff. I hadn't brought it forward.

I think because I was trying to save myself, I was trying to save our marriage, I was trying to help God save our reputation. Like I felt like I needed to help God in some way because I didn't want people to be hurt. But as soon as I let it out of the bag, I got clinically depressed. As soon as I was so depressed that I couldn't function at a camp that we were at, everything closed in on me and I went into a tailspin. I decided to share with one of the pastors on staff and that started a whole trajectory of dominoes falling which landed us in another pastor's office where we were called up and out. We had to go into treatment.

I wanted to come back and be a part of ministry, but the pastoral staff said no, you need to step down. That helped me. It's not what I felt I wanted at the time because it scared me to death to let go of something that I loved so much. But we needed help and we couldn't get the kind of help we needed if we were parading around like everything was going okay. Now, I'm not putting that on you. He's acting out. I'm not putting that on you at all. I'm telling my story. But what's it like for you, my dear, to have all this going on and to stand in a position of leadership where you're pretending? What's that like?

Andrea: It's terrible. I was actually told that I should step down from leading a certain ministry and I have my letter to resign by October.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: But what about him? Sweetheart, you've not done anything wrong.

Andrea: I thought he was told to step down and suddenly he is up on a mission trip in a different country. So that is confusing. Your story sounds like mine. I've been trying to protect our integrity of the marriage, the ministry, but it's like I can't pretend anymore. So every time that I say hey, I'm going to file, we need a separate, you need to leave the home, I'm told that I'm the defiant one. I'm the one that has to sit. I'm the one that has to bear it all. I'm the one that is depressed. I'm the nagging wife. It's so negative and I try for those things not to get to me.

Becky Brown: Andrea, it's a lie. You have a man who's a liar who's telling you lies. The hard part is you know the difference and you're in this kind of bubble of what is up and what is down and I can't make sense of any of it. We don't normally say, well you need to go file. You need to go. We don't usually direct that way, but you are on the right track. You're just getting confused because he interjects himself into the conversation and the church in which you're serving isn't serving you well. I know that it's very hard, especially with two young children and with your heart was to stay married. You don't get married for then to have to have a divorce. However, he's resistant to understanding what reality is.

Andrea: I have tried for eight years.

Becky Brown: Yeah, you did. We hear you. We are on your side.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: So let me share this. Becky opened with this story about her progressive glasses and I was thinking about something as she was talking. The word progression, progressive means that you're moving forward. There's another word that's called projection. Projection is what the church is doing to you. They are projecting through their lenses what you need to do, which is toxic, it's wrong, it's treatment trauma, it's a lot of things. It's harmful, it's abusive. I could keep going.

It's really wrong. They're projecting onto you that something's wrong with you instead of looking through clear lenses, which I think you are. I think you're saying this is crazy. I'm looking through my glasses and they're telling me this. But it's because they're projecting and that's abuse onto you. This is not a healthy church. This is not what should be happening.

I want you to listen to your body, to listen to your mind, to listen to your heart, to listen to the Almighty God who gave you a pass for this, and to listen to us today because we're fighting for you. I'm so glad you called. We're fighting for you. We're fighting for your sanity right now. But it shouldn't be pinned on you. Sadly, that's what happens when pastors are colluding with liars, when they like the winsome words that your husband shares, they like the benefits of leadership, and who knows, they may be compromised themselves and I'll probably get mail for this.

Becky Brown: No, I agree with you.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: Okay, good. So because I'm like, if they're compromised themselves, let's say they're looking at pornography or whatever, they're not going to call him out. But their glasses are dirty. They're wrong. And so you can find a clear path for yourself. You can get out of the crazy, step away so you can get your wits about you. I would love for you to get a copy of my book. It's called Intimate Deception: Healing the Wounds of Sexual Betrayal.

Becky Brown: And Andrea, I want you to have a team around you that is speaking truth into you. That happens so many times in these situations where the person who is not keeping the promise, I want to call them the infidel because that's exactly what's happening. I know that sounds kind of harsh, but hey, infidelity requires one person to be the infidel and that's him. But you need, Andrea, you need women around you who are helping you take those steps forward. I want him to get clean and sober. I want him to do the right thing. If he is a leader in church, we need godly men who are living a life of integrity. He needs to go to Every Man's Battle. I mean, there's a lot of things that you can do, but you can't do it on your own. You do need other people who are linking arms with you and walking you through whatever the future looks like for you.

Brian Perez: We've got a couple of events coming up, Andrea, that we want to talk to you about, but we're coming up to the break. First I want to tell you about Sherry's book. It's called Intimate Deception. It's available for purchase in the newlife.com store and it contains a lot of Sherry's story plus what to look forward to in the future should you decide to go through with this. We'll be right back here on New Life LIVE.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

Discovering that your husband has been viewing pornography, sexting, or having an affair deals a devastating blow to your self-image and self-worth. That's some reading from the back of Sherry's book. It's called Intimate Deception. It's in the newlife.com store. So Andrea, you should get this book and anyone else who is going through something similar, get it from the newlife.com store.

Then we've got a couple of events that are coming up that we want to let you know about, ladies. One of them is on August 1st. It's called Rescue: Your First Step Toward Healing. It's a four-hour virtual gathering. This is live, online. It's on a Saturday, August 1st, from 10 a.m. to 2 p.m. Central Time. Early bird rate ends July 17th. You can find out more about it at newlife.com. Then our weekend intensive called Restore: Healing After Betrayal. That's happening in Washington, D.C., the weekend of November 13th. Again, get all the details about that at newlife.com.

Yeah, guys, if you're struggling with pornography, with affairs, with all this other stuff that's tempting you, you need to get help too. So we have the Every Man's Battle Intensive. It's a weekend intensive. The next one is happening July 24th in Washington, D.C. So much help for so many people no matter what it is you're going through. Christians struggle with this stuff too.

Andrea said I never dreamed, I never thought. She feels guilty because she doesn't want to get this divorce because she's like, I never thought that this was going to happen. Well, you also didn't think that your husband was going to cheat on you for eight years, that he was going to get another woman pregnant.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: And she never thought that she'd be projected on, that she's the one that's done something wrong by her church. We're so vulnerable to our church leaders and there are a lot of great church leaders in this world. And there are some that aren't. And when you're being projected upon, it's important to get help so you get clarity, that new set of glasses. So Andrea, I want to make sure you get hooked into one of our New Life counselors. Make sure we've got plenty here in your area and someone that is trained with betrayal trauma. That'll help you get your eyes and heart straight.

Becky Brown: And hooray, Andrea. You are a hero today because you called and I think that's the biggest challenge that we all have. We know that something's going on that's wrong, but where do I even begin? Marriage is such a weird little bubble where we live in this kind of rule system that if you get stuck in a lie like this, you start believing it. And that's what's been happening to her, that she's actually feeling the guilt for both of them. I just want you to be free, Andrea. Whatever that looks like, I'm not saying go to the lawyer today. I'm just saying today is the day that you called and we're grateful for that call and we're praying for you.

Brian Perez: Yeah, for sure. Another thing I love about New Life Ministries and the New Life LIVE radio show is you might be in a similar situation as Andrea. You can't talk to anybody at your church. You're afraid that they might take you off the leadership team or whatever, or in Andrea's case, where they're just going to say, well you did something wrong and they throw you under the bus. Well, you know what? We're not going to do that here at New Life LIVE. Call in, let's talk about what you're going through. We'll set you up with a counselor in your area. 1-800-229-3000 is the number to call us. We're going to be here for the rest of this hour and all of next, so call in. 1-800-229-3000 or go to newlife.com. Let's take another call now. Here are two people at the same time: Mike and Kim in Atlanta, Georgia. They listen on the New Life app. So hey, guys, welcome to New Life LIVE. Thank you for downloading the app and thanks for calling us at 1-800-229-3000.

Mike: Thank you so much. So glad to be here and enjoy your ministry and appreciate it so much. I'm calling with one of my church members and her husband, and I'm just really trying to help them find next steps. Their son co-wrote a book with a friend of his at school and it's about rape. It was very, very concerning, but the mother and father who are on the phone are really just concerned as to what to do next. I don't believe he's done anything, meaning I don't think he's acted out on it, but really just need to know what to do next.

Brian: How did you guys find out about this book?

Mike: Other kids heard about it and so then it started leaking to parents and then that's how we found out.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: How old is your son?

Kim: 14.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: You guys must have felt incredibly shocked to find this out. Can you share a moment of your heart with us first? I've got some thoughts, but I just want to hear from your heart. I just want you to speak to the devastation and the shock.

Kim: I don't think I really get there as yet. I'm just in disbelief because I haven't seen what she wrote because he actually did it on his phone and he deleted it. I just heard that it was very explicit, but not seeing it for myself kind of put me in a bit of denial because I want to see for myself but it's not there anymore.

Becky Brown: Can I ask a question before we go? Has there been any reprimand from the school, authorities, anything like that?

Kim: No, it hasn't breached the school.

Brian: But it's infiltrating through other kids on campus, right?

Kim: It started at school, but they're doing it on the phone, something in the phone they're doing it. So the school has no idea about it.

Brian: Well, we'll talk when we've got to go to break right now on New Life LIVE, but stay through the break. We'll talk to you when we come back.

Every day, we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression, all kinds of ways. Wouldn't you love to be part of a rescue team? Don't miss your opportunity to be part of something that changes lives every single day because everyone matters. Your generosity helps find them. And you know, we've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life, and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99 for the 1 is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE or newlife.com/9941. Join the mission, rescue the one, and restore the many.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE. All right, we're back on New Life LIVE talking to Pastor Mike who's got one of his parishioners from his church on the phone. Her name is Kim and her husband is next to her. Mike, did you say there was somebody else on the phone or is it just the two of you right now?

Mike: Her husband is next to her.

Brian: Okay, so we're hearing the story about this book that your 14-year-old wrote and it's about the subject of rape. It's making the rounds at the school and parents are devastated.

Mike: Not quite. It's not making its rounds to the school. The friend from school co-wrote it apparently with him. It found its way to church and so that's how I got involved.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: Okay, well you know the Lord just has quite a short line on that, doesn't he? I mean, who better to have gotten it than you? So let me just explain what I think is going on and I think what the source is. I think the source is pornography. This is considered something that's called literotica, which is literature that's erotic, that's written. There's a whole bunch of it out there. If your son has access, which if you have a device which most 14-year-olds do have, and if it's not protected, I could find porn in less than three seconds on my phone. It's so easy. So this literotica, it's what they do. It's what is out there. They write about porn and it becomes a way that they can get sexually aroused. It's like, sadly, back in the day when they traded baseball cards, this is a way of trading something that's pornified that they read that becomes arousal material for other kids. Have you, dad or mom, found porn on your son's device? Say more.

Kim: Yes, I have.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: When did you all find porn on his phone? How long ago? You're not in trouble here. I'm just asking because it's everywhere.

Kim: It's been a long time since I've seen it because I saw it probably two years ago.

Guest (Male): Probably like a month. I would say when you was young, you kind of know what they doing in the room and I noticed I told his mom about it, but I say for probably like a month ago.

Becky Brown: Is he your oldest, your only? Where does he fall in the family?

Kim: He's the only one.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: So one of you is saying two years ago maybe, the other is saying when he was younger, you knew he was doing it.

Kim: No, I saw it when he was younger. My husband saw it since about a month ago.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: Did you happen to disclose to your husband when you saw it when he was younger? Did you say, hey, I just want you to know, I found porn on our son's device? Is that a conversation you guys had or was it?

Kim: No.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: You know what's so common? I want to ask you, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but when you found that on your boy's phone, what did you feel initially that caused you to keep it from talking to your husband about it?

Kim: I was mad. I was embarrassed. I was thinking he's too young for that and I didn't want anybody to judge him.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: Yep, and you know how common that is? I just want to tell you, Kim, do you know what that's called? It has a name. It's so common. It's called carried shame. Carried shame. Like, your boy has a backpack that he takes to school every day that he puts his stuff in, and guess what happened? The minute you found your son was looking at porn, it's like all of a sudden poof, you have your own backpack and it's stoked full of a bunch of shame based on what your son, who you love, was looking at. And so you've been walking around with that backpack and he's been walking around with a backpack. And anger makes sense. That's an appropriate emotion. I want to channel that for you because I think your son is a victim of pornography. I hate the porn industry and anybody who knows me knows I'm very vocal about this. I've gotten some other people that think that I'm Lulu, but I'm not because I see the incredible damage that comes because of pornography. It's a gateway drug. It's like they find it, they're curious, it's titillating, they begin to get aroused by it. And so their sexuality, which would normally be developing along the way, they have hormones, testosterone and all of that, that pornography throws a curveball in and it takes them into a world of dark sexual acting out. To my point, the porn industry is flooded with rape and really dark ways of people hurting people with sex.

So let's talk about a solution. The one thing I want you both to know is you don't have to carry his backpack of shame. You can set it down. It's not going to help you to carry it. It's kind of like Andrea, our first caller. She's carrying some guilt and shame because of what the church is projecting onto her. Porn got into your son's world through his device. If you can, have you talked with him at all about it or no?

Kim: Not in detail, but I did speak with him.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: And Dad, have you talked to him at all or no?

Guest (Male): I talked to him, but me and my wife, we kind of newly married, so he's my stepson and we haven't really kind of bridged that gap because he's a quiet, good, you know, I love him. He's just quiet. So we haven't had that one-to-one, but I spoke to him. Between I was young too, you know, but I just want him to, I think we're going to spend a little more time together. We just hadn't had that chance.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: Yeah, well I love that you're a stepdad. And did you find it when you were young? Did you find pornography or anything like that?

Guest (Male): Not really. The life I lived, we was really sheltered and then I grew up in the Caribbean, so I didn't discover porn until I came to America. So it was nonexistent for me.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: Yeah, it's really prevalent here. Well, the first thing I would have you do is walk in with love, not shaming. He's got a lot of shame and he doesn't even realize this is erotically harmful to himself and others. But to be able to begin talking about it as it's hurting him and it's hurting other people, even though he may not have connected the dots yet. But we love you, we want you to get help, we want you to figure this out. Because rape is a form of harm that happens. And you might do some exploratory with him. Find out, when did you first discover rape? Don't be afraid to ask him curious questions in a non-shaming way because you're trying to figure out how he came upon it, how he stumbled upon it, and what is it in him that wants to write about it.

And then I think he needs to be in some counseling. It's not a maybe, it's a must. Your boy is at a point that this could turn into a porn addiction. He's 14, he's young, but untreated, it could get worse. And with the literotica, he's already in some pretty dark circles. So yeah, I think that he needs some help, somebody who can help him unpack it.

Brian: We've got a couple of resources that we want to let Kim know and her husband, a couple of books in the newlife.com store. One of them is by our friend, Dr. Jim Burns. It's called The Student's Guide to Sexual Integrity. The other one is Every Young Man's Battle by the founder of New Life Ministries, Steve Arterburn. And there's also an article at newlife.com. We'll put a link to all of this, by the way, in the show notes if you're watching on Facebook or YouTube. The article's called How to Help Your Teen Resist the Lure of Porn. Because like we were talking about, it's very prevalent, it's so easy to get to here in America. Like the caller said, he grew up in the Caribbean and as soon as he came to America, that's, I mean, it's everywhere. So get those resources on our website, newlife.com.

And if you or a loved one is struggling with finding Christ-centered inpatient treatment for drug and alcohol addiction, New Life highly recommends Covenant Hills. They're our partner for inpatient treatment. They've been providing excellent clinical care for decades. You can call 1-800-NO-ABUSE or visit covhills.com for more information about Covenant Hills or just call us here at 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Let's go back to the phones. Here is Brenda, who is listening to us on WBYN in Pennsylvania. Welcome, Brenda, to New Life LIVE.

Brenda: Thank you very much. God bless you. I'm calling in response to Andrea because she seemed to be telling my story that happened several decades ago. My ex was church leadership and he was a porn addict and a serial cheater, a pathological liar. He would tell lies about me so that everyone then thought that the problem was all Brenda and not him. And so I experienced that church projection that you were referring to. If I tried to tell even the pastor of the church about things, he thought that I was making up things about my ex because I was telling your call screener that he would get dressed and as he put on his necktie, he put on Mr. Super Christian. But when he took it off when he got home, it was like Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. And so I know it was all projected to be my fault. I called it the lame brain blame to shame game.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: Oh my goodness, try to say that five times fast. That's amazing.

Brenda: That's really what it is. And so I would just tell the truth because I only had one story. He had multiple stories, but he even got on a first-name basis with my lawyer and undermined me everywhere you turned around. So I want to warn her about these things.

Becky Brown: So Brenda, you're like her first team member that I was talking about. She needs people around her to encourage her and to tell her you will survive, you will get through this, whatever the "this" is. And I just put that caveat in there because it's different for everybody. There are women who have been through this and their husband does the work and they together as a couple can figure out a better way to do their life. But it's never okay to just accept the lie and live in that lie. So you're a very big encourager to her, Brenda.

Brenda: Well, thank you. But I tried going to other churches and people at many of the churches just seemed to want to say, oh well you know God hates divorce, as though that's my fault. Wait a minute, I wasn't the one. Like you were telling Andrea that she was the innocent party, the one who's been abused. But the church abuse comes in when they say that. As a retired high school English teacher, I would have to say that's taking the scripture out of context. And when you take it out of context, you have the pretext, and that's making God a liar. And that's what the church is doing. So we need to look at Malachi chapter 2 and go down from about 13 to the end of the chapter, 17, where he says that what he has against the man is that they have dealt treacherously with the wife of their youth. And that creates violence against the woman. And that he hates divorce because he wanted godly children.

Becky Brown: Well, and you know, Brenda, I love that you have such a command of the language. I love that so much. My daughter is also a high school English teacher. But here's what I love about what you're saying. God does hate divorce, but it's not because he hates the people. It's because he hates the heartache and the hurt and the division and the heartbreak. This is where that's coming from. And you know, I even think about the story in the Bible where Jesus is talking to the Samaritan woman, the woman at the well, and he's talking about her being married five times or whatever. We have to remember what you were just referencing, Brenda, is women in Bible times were left to their own devices without a husband. And so they would cling to whatever was available to them for their life, literally. And so when we're stuck in a situation where we can't make sense of someone who we loved and we cherished and we made a commitment to and they're lying, we can't make sense of that. But eventually you can't accept the lie as truth. And as you know, Brenda, it's hard to get through that process because you feel bad and then you've got to deal with people who have judgment. But cling to what God is leading for you to do. And I love that you're encouraging Andrea because she's just beginning this journey.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: You know, I love what you said, Brenda, about it would make God a liar. In my book, I have a chapter called "Where is God now?" because I had some spiritual and faith traumas going through all of that. That was one of the areas that I got wounded. But in this chapter, I give 12 names of God and one of my favorites is Jehovah-Elemet. And Jehovah-Elemet means the Lord God of truth. And this is the verse that I used, which I love, it's Romans 3:3-4. It says, "True, some of them were unfaithful, but just because they were unfaithful, does that mean God will be unfaithful? Of course not! Though everyone else in the world is a liar, God is not." And I love that verse. Why? Because it's about truth. And I think when things feel very spinny and confusing and somebody's projecting something onto you and you're able to stand like Andrea and Brenda in their truth with the Lord, you will figure your way through this. It's just important to have our mind and sanity and truth and have people that are truth-tellers around us.

Brian: Brenda, thank you for your call of encouragement today to not only Andrea, but anyone else who's going through a similar situation. And we've got several resources on our website, newlife.com. These resources are made possible by people like you who contribute towards what we do here at New Life. And right now is a great time to make a donation because we're in the middle of a matching gift challenge up to $300,000, aren't we, Becky?

Becky Brown: Yes, and we're so close. We're so close. If you believe in what God is doing through New Life, helping people who are in some of the most difficult situations hear the truth, because we don't know how many people are going to hear Brenda's encouragement or Andrea's question and they're going to hear it. Your giving helps us do what we're doing. We're helping people find that freedom and every dollar will be doubled. And I know some of you wait for those matching gift challenges to give. Today's the day. Brian, how do they give?

Brian: They can give at newlife.com/match or text the word MATCH to 28950 or call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Speaking of calls, we're going to be in the studio for another hour. So Suzanne and everyone else who wants to call in, we're going to talk to you in just a moment here on New Life LIVE. 1-800-229-3000.

Thanks so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember, we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to newlife.com to find out more information. And thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing and we're so glad that you're here.