New Life LIVE

Brian Perez: Hi friend, hope you had yourself a nice weekend. It’s the start of a new work week, the start of a new month full of fresh new exciting opportunities. Mondays get such a bad rap all the time. I don't know how Monday deals with all that negativity that gets said about it. Surely, Monday, you have secure attachment, and that's great.

Speaking of secure attachment, licensed marriage and family therapist Mark Cameron is here. He wrote a book titled Understanding Your Attachment Style. It’s available in the newlife.com store. Parenting expert Dr. Jim Burns joins us, too. His new book is When Your Adult Child Strays. Here’s the number to call for the next two hours, 1-800-229-3000. Mark, what’s on your mind to start us off?

Mark Cameron: Hang with me here, I’m going to talk a little bit about sports. Most people know that I am a marriage and family therapist, but what many people might not know is that I am a die-hard Liverpool Football Club fan. That’s English soccer for you who don’t know what I’m talking about. Over the weekend, Liverpool announced they were firing their head coach, who’d only been at the club for two years.

What is interesting about this is that the first season he joined, he actually won the league title. Only five other managers in the history of the league have done that. They actually brought in two very highly desired players this season and they did really poorly. He couldn't get them to adjust to his playing style.

This is the part that hurts me. Liverpool’s biggest rivals are Manchester United. Think Boston Red Sox and New York Yankees, or Ohio State and Michigan State. Last season, they started off really poorly and they changed their coach mid-season. They had their worst finish in 50 years. This season, they started off really poorly and they changed that coach out, and they did really, really well.

Here’s the interesting part. Two teams, the same core group of players, under a certain coach not doing well, and under another coach who's changing the tactics, doing really well. That got me thinking about relationships because in my therapy office, I meet with couples every week. They’re good people, they’re capable people, they’re loving people, and their relationships usually start off quite well.

Each one wants healthy, secure, connected relationships. The potential is there, but potential by itself is not enough. Most couples' relationships fail not because they lack that individual capability, but because they struggle to have that clear strategy to grow together. I like to say this: good relationships happen on purpose. They don’t happen by accident. They’re built intentionally. We don’t fortunately just fall into a good relationship.

When there’s no plan for growth and repair, couples drift apart. That’s really the natural order of things. Relationships naturally drift towards distance. They don’t naturally drift towards intimacy. That needs to happen through intentional partnership and structure. This is the reason why I love attachment work. It’s not just telling people that you’ve got to try harder. It’s helping people see the patterns that are keeping them stuck so that they can learn those skills to create safety, security, and connection.

When you can understand your attachment style and you can see where things are going wrong, you can learn to have that more secure attachment style. That’s exactly what New Life does at Intimacy and Marriage. We teach people about attachment, where things are going wrong, and how to get things on the right track. In team sports, a coach provides that vision and a game plan, and that helps the players be successful together.

The same thing happens in relationships. If you’re listening today and you’re feeling stuck, maybe it’s not a capability issue; maybe it’s a strategy issue. Think about joining us at Intimacy and Marriage in Washington, DC, next month, July 24th to the 26th. Let us help you get a strategy to get your relationship back on track.

Brian Perez: Yes, indeed, and that’s still about six weeks away, so don’t wait that long. Call in right now and get some practical tools and tips that you can use until Intimacy and Marriage. 1-800-229-3000 is our number, and we’re going to be in the studio for two hours. A new episode of the Every Man’s Battle podcast dropped today, and the guys discuss how to treat temptations and emotional storms as dashboard warning lights, not signals to numb out. Like every episode, this one is packed with helpful and encouraging insights for living a life marked by sexual integrity. Catch it on our YouTube channel at newlife.com, on our app, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Who needs free advice for themselves, a friend, or a loved one? Did someone pour out their heart to you at church yesterday and you weren’t sure what to say? Give us a call. I know we can help. 1-800-229-3000 is our number. Let’s begin with Sally in Sacramento. Welcome to New Life LIVE. Thanks for calling.

Sally: Thank you for helping me. I’m calling to ask a question and another one that’s related. Is codependency an addiction? I want to know that because I want to know if addictions actually lead to depression.

Jim Burns: First of all, Sally, great question. It’s funny; Mark and I may look at it from a different angle here. I think codependency could become an addiction. I know it’s a habit. Oftentimes, we have a difference between a habit and an addiction. Codependency, speaking as a person who can go in that direction right here, I think mine probably isn't as much addiction as it is that I have a habit and a way of going about doing life.

On the Enneagram, if you know the Enneagram, I’m a two. I’m a helper. That means I just want to help everybody. I want to help my family and I want to get them out of these messes and these kinds of things. With that, I’m saying that’s more my bent. A way to get out of codependency, because I don’t think codependency is healthy, is actually to do some of the same things that you would do with an addiction. Sometimes you need help to get through that.

I don’t know that it matters if it’s an addiction or a habit. I see it as definitely something that we need to work on because it’s not healthy relationships. Does that make sense?

Sally: Yes, it does. Lately, I’ve learned that having God first in my life has been very strengthening, rather than the other things I would get into, usually relationships. That’s why I’m asking about codependent relationships being an addiction. You're saying it could be a habit as well as something serious.

Jim Burns: Sure it is. I think we have to treat it as serious, and especially codependency because codependency puts you in a somewhat dysfunctional role in any relationship, whether that be with a spouse, a friend, an adult child, your own children, or whatever it might be. We want to be able to work through that. Like what you’re saying, I honestly believe that when we are leaning into God, when we are in touch with God, I think he helps us get through those kinds of issues.

Whether it be an addiction like sex addiction, porn addiction, or alcohol addiction, there are some chemical things in your brain that might be the same, but not probably as intense. Mark, what do you think?

Mark Cameron: Sally, I’m curious. It’s a good question, and I’m curious what’s going on in your life as to what’s making you ask this question.

Sally: Well, I counted them while I was waiting. I’ve had seven very major periods of depression in my life. I’m 83 years old. Some of them have been extremely dangerous. I probably could have died a couple of times because the depression was so severe. I’ve always had God in my life, but not clearly. God wasn't first really, really, really. It was more like God is here, but the lines weren’t clear. The more I read about codependency, the more I see that that has been a major part of what I’m talking about with having major depression periods.

Mark Cameron: It sounds like you’re getting stuck in codependent relationships, and then when you can’t really help those people, it leads to depression. Is that accurate?

Sally: No, that I’m aware of. I’ve helped a lot of people, worked with homeless children, and I have friends who have very serious problems and illnesses. What my heavy-duty depression periods were from was a brother screaming and yelling and kicking me out of my home and getting papers signed, that kind of thing. Then getting married and my ex-husband forcing me to have an abortion. He didn’t literally force me, but it was a situation like that when I was young. Relationships when I’m promised something and then it falls through and I’m abandoned, then I would go into deep depressions. It took a long time to pull out of those. I can’t believe that I didn’t try to see that pattern and get help for that pattern rather than the details that were going on at the time.

Mark Cameron: I can see how those situations would cause depression. It seems like there’s a pattern here where you’re trusting men who are ending up being controlling or abusive to you. Anxiety and depression often go together. I know you just told me a little bit about depression from these circumstances, but I also hear you talking about codependency.

People who are helpers, as Jim was talking about, often rescue others. They often get into relationships where the other person needs them. They can end up either expecting others to help them out or they can end up rescuing other people. Each person needs to stand alone in a relationship. There’s a “we” part of us where we are a spouse, a sister, a brother, a son, or a daughter, but we also have a “me” part that is separate and individual. That part needs to stand alone, or be able to stand alone, even though we can still partner together.

If you’re finding yourself stuck in these relationships where it’s hard to know who to trust or you need other people, I would say that that probably is the growth work to do. Addictions do start off as habits. It’s a fine line to say whether codependency is an addiction. It is an addiction in the sense of you keep going back to doing the same thing over and over again. The work is, like you said, to find out what is the deep underlying issue. I would say that most of the time that is housed in our attachment style. Everything that we know, we’ve learned. Everything we’ve learned about relationships, we’ve been taught by the families that we’ve grown up in. I wonder if you grew up in a family where there was maybe a strong parent who you had to rely on or who was very dominant, and then that has caused you to seek out some of those similar relationships.

Jim Burns: I was thinking something else, too, Sally, and I appreciate that, Mark. I wrote a book on adult children, and in it I have a quiz on codependency. I put it inside the boundaries chapter because we need boundaries with our adult children. Sometimes I think that being a person who’s a codependent means that you don’t have healthy boundaries. It sounds like with the kinds of relationships that you’re talking about, that’s something that you can work on.

You’re amazing because you’re 83 years old, and you’re still doing the work. Literally, you get the star here at New Life for being the caller of the day. You also may want to think through the boundaries side because sometimes people who have codependency don’t have healthy boundaries. Boundaries are really healthy to have. We sometimes think that’s a negative issue, but it’s actually not at all. People who are healthy have good boundaries. That might have caused you some of the pain. Not having some good boundaries could have caused you some of the pain, depression, and anxiety because you were walked all over by some of these people.

Brian Perez: We have a tip sheet that’s available that we’re going to send you, Sally, so stay on the phone. Anyone watching or listening, we can send it to you as well when you call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. We’ll put the details there in the show notes. The tip sheet is called Depression: Signs, Symptoms, and Solutions. Stay on hold, and we’ll get you a copy of that.

Why do you think popular culture glamorizes codependency? It’s so funny because right before we started the show, I had a song stuck in my head from like 40 years ago. I’m sure there’ve been other songs since then, but that’s the era I grew up in. The lines of the song go something like, “I’m addicted to you baby, you’re a hard habit to break. Being without you takes a lot of getting used to. I should learn to live with it, but I don’t want to.” It’s like a glamorization of that; we need to be obsessed with somebody. We need to find someone and then just be so obsessed with them. Do you think that’s helpful to have that kind of mindset when it comes to marriage? Mark, would you say that you’re addicted to your spouse, that if they left or something that you would just be gone?

Mark Cameron: I don’t think it’s necessarily glamorization, even though we hear those things in pop culture songs. I think it’s more of a reflection than glamorization because so many people do get caught up in codependent relationships. We look for what's called the romantic solution. We look for a relationship to save us when really there’s a deep insecurity on the inside of us, which Sally was talking about. It’s taken her until she’s 83 years old before she figured out she keeps getting stuck in these same patterns. We get stuck in these same patterns. If we can learn to reflect and say, “Well, what is going on? Who’s the common denominator here? What do I keep on doing that keeps getting me stuck?” then we can learn to see what’s happening and do something about it.

Jim Burns: I’m still getting through the fact that you had that song in your head right before you came on. I don’t know that addiction is a good thing to a relationship. I think you can have a healthier relationship where there’s commitment. I’m committed to Cathy. I’ve been committed to her for 52 years. I haven’t loved every day; she hasn’t loved every day, but there’s a commitment. I don’t think being addicted is something that’s healthy. I think the secular world is singing a song with just words. I don’t know that that’s the healthy way to go. There is an issue of commitment and likeability and all those other kinds of things, but the secular world has glamorized romance. We have to be real careful with that. We have to be really careful not to be addicted to just the glamorization of romance. That doesn’t last long in relationships.

Brian Perez: Sally, thanks for calling us today here on New Life LIVE. Stay on the phone and we’ll send you that tip sheet that I was talking about. Everyone else that’s still on the phone right now, we’re going to get to you. We’re going to be here for two hours today so we can take some more calls. I see Patty, Alicia, Mary, and several more calling in. We’ll get to you all either this hour or next, so give us a call at 1-800-229-3000. Go to our website, newlife.com. So many great resources and articles that you can find there. You can also subscribe to our newsletter and our daily devotional. It’s a great way to start the day with some good encouragement. You read the devotional in the morning, and then a few hours later, we’re on the radio or on YouTube for you to watch, or Facebook. Go to newlife.com to get all those details. We’ll be back.

I already mentioned the Every Man’s Battle podcast that dropped today, available wherever you get your podcasts. Let’s talk a little bit about the EMB intensive workshop that begins this weekend. If you’ve been battling a hidden struggle with your sexual integrity and are carrying shame that’s disconnecting you from your wife, kids, or others, please do whatever it takes to join us at Every Man’s Battle in Dallas. We’ve helped thousands of men identify what’s beneath the struggle and equipped them with practical tools for real, lasting change.

This freedom is available to you, too, and it’s worth doing whatever it takes to join us. If finances are an issue, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE and ask about need-based scholarships. You can get all the details about the Every Man’s Battle workshop at newlife.com. 1-800-229-3000 is the number to call us today. Let us speak with Alicia in Philadelphia. Welcome to New Life LIVE.

Alicia: Hi, I am here. May I say something? I want to ask my question, but I also feel very compelled to speak on the ADHD caller. I have a 15-year-old with ADHD and I can offer some good advice because she was diagnosed at 10. Three things. One, lots and lots and lots of fidget toys. Two, find something that she can hyper-focus on because that’s what they do best. For my daughter, it ended up being horseback riding, and it also doubled as equestrian therapy. It worked unbelievably for her, absolutely amazing for her. I would suggest that, whatever that is that she likes to hyper-focus on, let her do that. Three, absolutely get an IEP and a lawyer immediately to advocate on her behalf. An IEP without a lawyer is like a cell phone without service. You have to have that back-up because they will sometimes play games, especially today with the education system.

For us, what worked best is online schooling with a coach. The coach has been absolutely incredible to sit with her and help her focus. Those are the four things that I would recommend.

Brian Perez: Well, thanks for that. What is your question for us today?

Alicia: My question is if a marriage can recover, after 20 years, from multiple infidelities with the same woman over the course of 20 years, on and off. How I responded was I would go into a reactive abuse type state. In between those infidelities, there were struggles with avoidance on his part and severe neglect. I would then struggle with the neglect where I would, if I could get negative attention, I would. I would use very harsh words. The power of life and death is in our tongue, and I would lash out and hurt him almost in the only ways that I knew how. I never retaliated cheating, but I feel that there’s definitely been serious betrayal on both our parts. We both played a role. I in-house separated about a year and a half ago. Now I’m at the point where I’m ready to go out the door. He tends to pull me back every time I get to that point. Over seven years since the last infidelity, we got back together. As far as I know, there hasn’t been any since, but there’s been severe neglect and we’ve maybe had intimacy about eight or nine times over seven years. You talked about drifting apart. It’s natural to drift apart rather than together and you have to intentionally work it. I feel that we are just hanging on by a thread and can that be salvaged?

Brian Perez: How long have you guys been married again?

Alicia: It’s been 20 years. As far as I know, it has been only with one woman, but the times when he’s been super neglectful towards me where he’s just disappeared and checked out, I would always think he was cheating again. Then I would really act out. I’m being honest. It’s shameful for me to even speak on this, but I absolutely see my part and my role played, too.

Mark Cameron: What is your part and your role? You said there’s been betrayal on both sides. Are you talking about just using mean words?

Alicia: Correct. Pummeling him with my weaponized words against him. He’s weaponized other things against me over the years, but I’ve definitely done that and I’ve torn him down. Then it’s no wonder that he doesn't want to be with me. When this person would reappear or he would reach out, of course she would be super nice and say everything he wanted to hear and feed that in him. He also has a relationship with his mom where he admitted to me once that she was his unrequited love. He had four brothers, he was the last, and she really didn’t have much left for him to give. He was always chasing her love.

I think that this woman, she has a master's in psychology, her sister, who doesn’t speak to her at all but I was best friends with her sister, told me that she’s very good at reading people and knowing exactly who to become for them. That’s one of the reasons why everybody in her family just completely disowned her. I think that she picked up on that. She would trigger that chase aspect in him, or need for him to chase, that what felt normal and comfortable and he would just flip back to that.

Mark Cameron: Well, I think you’ve got a good level of insight, Alicia. I appreciate that you can also take responsibility for your part in the marriage problems. Marriage problems are always two people because there’s two people that make a marriage work, but infidelity and affairs, the person who chooses to make that decision makes that choice and commits an affair. They need to own that part 100 percent. We need to recognize, too, that the marriage problems, it doesn’t cause the other person to act out, but that acting out is the symptom of the marriage problems typically.

Whenever there’s an affair, there needs to be a trust building that takes place. That’s usually a structured approach. The best thing I would say to do is to get in with a marriage therapist who has experience working with betrayal. Typically, a marriage therapist who has experience working with betrayal does something called a therapeutic disclosure, a full disclosure where the person who’s committed the affair outlines everything. Then there’s usually an impact letter where the person who’s been hurt then talks about how hurt they are. Then there’s usually a commitment part of that where the person who’s done the betrayal then commits what they’re going to do.

There’s an expectation in there that there’s this period where it takes some time to rebuild that trust. The person who’s done the betrayal needs to recognize that the person who’s been betrayed is going to have triggers to them. It makes sense that you get triggered. I’m not condoning the harsh words that you’re using, but that’s probably coming out of that deep wound of betrayal because he’s kept on going back to this other woman. She’s remained in his life and he’s kept on going back to her. If you haven’t done that part, I would suggest starting there is getting in with somebody because the relationship problems are still there even if, as far as you know, the betrayal is not happening. Things aren't moving forward; they’re just staying stagnant at this point. Have you done any of that betrayal recovery work?

Alicia: We have been to therapy several times, but every single time he’s always withheld information that I found out later. The last time that I know of that he cheated was about seven years ago and when we reconciled, we started therapy. Six months into it, I would say it felt like we were 99% back to where we were from the beginning and I felt like we were really healed, we were recommitted moving in the same direction, and then I got an email from this woman telling me that they just had spoken the day before. He was telling her she’s “the one” and whether or not she was lying or not, she said that they had had intimacy daily for nine months despite what he told me, which was it happened once.

Mark Cameron: So that’s exactly why you need that full therapeutic disclosure here, Alicia, because when that doesn’t happen, everything gets reset when you find out new news. He’s sabotaged that whole process and he needs to own that he has sabotaged the repair building because he’s kept going back to this woman. You basically need to start again all over if you want to repair your relationship and he needs to make a major commitment to cutting this person off and having full transparency with you.

Brian Perez: Alicia, you and your husband would definitely benefit from our Intimacy and Marriage intensive that’s happening next month. Then for you, Alicia, there’s the Restore: Healing after Betrayal intensive that’s in November in Washington, DC.

Brian Perez here with Mark Cameron and Dr. Jim Burns. This hour is almost over, but we’re going to be in the studio for a whole another hour, so give us a call at 1-800-229-3000. Janice, we’ll talk to you in a little bit. First, let’s go to Mary in New York watching us on YouTube. Thanks for calling today into New Life LIVE.

Mary: Thank you for taking my call. I have an 18-year-old granddaughter that lives with me. She just turned 18. She’s been smoking marijuana and I’ve told her how bad it was for her and she still smokes it. Her and her boyfriend come over here. I can't seem to get her to stop and I’m not sure what to do. For her birthday, her job gave her a bag of cocaine. She was doing that. She shared it with her mother, but her mother didn’t take it. She said this is what they gave me because I caught her in the bathroom with her boyfriend doing something and I found a straw and I’m like, “What is this?”

Brian Perez: And so she doesn't live with her parents anymore; she’s living with you guys full-time?

Mary: She’s been living with me for quite a few years. Her mother lives here but not supposed to be here because she’s had outbursts and post-traumatic stress. She was living here not paying any rent and constantly fighting. I’ve had the police here five or six times a week, almost all the time. They’re like, “She’s got to get out of here” because she would attack my granddaughter violently. Then my grandson would get involved, too, and she's not supposed to be here. Her mother is parenting these kids because she lives here. She tries to do it but then she says nobody lets her do it. I’m here basically doing most of it.

Jim Burns: Mary, that’s a tough situation. Your granddaughter’s an adult, but it’s your home. I oftentimes say, “My home, my rules.” What’s really hard for an 18-year-old granddaughter is if you say, “You can’t smoke pot here, you can’t do cocaine,” which obviously should not be happening in your home, she might make a worse choice in terms of moving out or whatever. I think you’ve got to hold the line somehow because she’s making decisions that are going to affect her for the rest of her life if it continues. We don’t want to enable that kind of behavior.

The really hard thing is we probably need a powwow with her mom. Maybe you talk to her mom first, but it’s your home and you have every right to say, at whatever age a child is, “This is my home. Here’s how we’re going to do this. If you choose not to, then you’re going to have to find something else.” I know you can play that movie forward and you go, “Well, what’s that going to be? Is it homeless? Is it moving in with that boyfriend?” Sometimes the best decision is to hold your ground. That helps them in the long run make good and wise decisions. She’s not making good and wise decisions. Plus, working at a place that gives her cocaine is crazy, although sometimes you can’t believe everything you hear. Did they really give her cocaine? That’s actually illegal to do and terrible. I’d set some firm boundaries. I’d talk to a counselor and have that counselor help you come up with some very clear set boundaries for your home. It’s not easy for you because you love that girl and you love your daughter and your grandson, but tough love means allowing the circumstances of their poor choices to be carried through. That’s how they’re going to learn. We learn more from experience, even if it’s a negative experience, than we do sometimes from advice.

Mark Cameron: Mary, I learned this term from Jim’s book, Doing Life with Your Adult Children: transitional adults. She’s 18, but she’s a teenager. To me, it’s this oxymoron to call a teenager an adult because they’re a teenager. We know that the adult brain doesn’t fully get formed until about 25. Typically, they can legally make these adult decisions, but they’re still very much dependent upon you. Now, it sounds like she’s had a really hard life. People use drugs to distract or to numb from emotional pain. She’s learning right now what’s it like to have the adult card and to be able to make decisions for herself, but she still needs a lot of help.

There’s tough love, like Jim is saying. I don’t think Jim’s saying it in a harsh way. Some people use tough love in a harsh way where they just tell them to move out and then she’s got to figure it out by herself. I don’t think that’s what Jim is saying. But there’s also love with boundaries. Love with boundaries has that element that Jim is saying: there’s a limit line here, and if you cross it, there’s a consequence. But there’s also the other part of: I love you and I care about you and I want to help you and I want to find out what’s going on and I’m here to support you. These are the rules of the house. Because I don’t know, I’m going to have to do some things to know. If you want to live here, it’s going to require a weekly drug test that we’re going to have to do. But we’re also going to go to family counseling together and I want to learn how to be the best support for you so that I can be someone who you come to and not the drugs to distract yourself. It takes this element of being able to be strong on one side with the rules, but to be also strong with the love on the other side. I recommend what Jim is saying: find a family counselor who can help you through that because Mom has lost her way, too. Because of the things that have happened between her and her daughter, it sounds like the daughter doesn't really want to listen to her because she’s lost her credibility. She may just need to accept that she can’t parent her daughter in the way that she would have wanted to when she was young, but she may have to do some repair work now to be able to become credible if her daughter still is relying on her for some of her needs.

Jim Burns: Mary, I was thinking of a really neat story. Two weeks ago, I was in New York speaking. A grandma came up to me and had a very similar situation. She said, “Here’s what I’m willing to do. I’m willing for us to get counseling, not just the grandson.” For them to get some counseling, get some insight. They can help us decide what to do with some of the drug use that you’re doing, but I can’t allow you to destroy yourself in my home like this, but I love you and I want us to do something.

The grandson didn’t take it good. He was angry. Then he left for two weeks and couch surfed. Then he came back and said, “I’m with you, Grandma, let’s get the counseling.” The grandson was at the conference that I was at for parenting. He was there, and I met this guy. You know what? He wasn't doing drugs. Now, that’s so similar and it was really hard for the grandma to say, “If you don't abide by these rules, then you’re going to have to move on.” I’m not saying that’s the answer; that’s a boundary issue, but very important. So there’s hope out there, but hope comes from us having some good structure and boundaries.

Brian Perez: Mary, thanks for calling us today here on New Life LIVE. Whatever you’re facing, you don’t have to figure it out alone. Give us a call. We’re going to be in the studio for another hour at 1-800-229-3000. We can’t wait to speak with you. Thanks so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. Remember, we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to newlife.com to find more information. God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing, and we’re so glad that you’re here.