New Life LIVE

Narrator: Welcome to the New Life LIVE podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: Hey everyone, thanks so much for joining us today on New Life LIVE. I'm your host, Brian Perez. We're going to be in the studio for two hours today. Can't wait to talk to you. 1-800-229-3000 is our number. You can also watch us live streaming on Facebook and YouTube if that's how you're watching today. Hello. But call in, we'd love to help you. What are you dealing with? What are you going through? Grief, loss, depression, procrastination? We can help you with things like that.

Call in to 1-800-229-3000. We've got Sherry Denham-Keffer, Doctor of Marriage and Family Therapy here today, as well as parenting expert Jim Burns. He's the founder of Homeward. Good to be with you guys. Jim, what's on your mind to start us off?

Jim Burns: Well, great to be here. And I love having Sherry here. Yes, Sherry's great. I just passed out your book again. You're costing me money is what you are by writing I think the best book on betrayal. Honestly, it's just so good. So way to go. Well, part of having a story in our life and the scars from that is what can help others be healed as well. And I think when we speak out of our own brokenness or out of our own depth of pain and we embrace some of that in terms of learning how to do that, that's the most helpful for me.

Well, I'm not talking about that today. I want to meddle in people's lives. I've often talked about a mentor of mine named Neil Clark Warren. We went to the same grad school, probably 20 years before me, but he was the founder of eHarmony. His incredible insight is on relationships, though, and marriage. He was a professor at a seminary that I like a lot. And we were talking in his lunchroom. I was doing some consulting for him with eHarmony.

And he said to me something really good. I'm going to read it to you. He said, "If I could give one gift to every couple on their wedding day, I'd wrap up a large box filled with adaptability. Because no matter how good your relationship is, you will have to be flexible enough to change yourself and at least tolerate your partner's differences." And what I want to say about that is Kathy and I are very different. We've been married for 50 years. We think we have a very good marriage. We have a high-maintenance marriage. We talk about that at marriage conferences.

But we've had to learn to embrace our differences. And I'm an extrovert. She's an introvert. That's not going to change. And it drives me crazy and drives her crazy at times. Still does. She's detailed and I'm less detailed. If she was here, she would say, if she was sitting where Sherry's sitting, she would say, well, he's a little flaky and I'm not as flaky. That's true, too, but she's not here, so I don't have to go that way. I'm the eternal optimist. She is a realist. She's not a super pessimist, but she's just a realist.

And I try to be on time to most things and Kathy I think in our 50 years of marriage has maybe been at church five or six times on time for the first worship song. So there you go. And I have a phrase for you today. And the phrase goes like this: Does it really matter? All of the things I just mentioned, it really doesn't matter. Now, sitting next to Sherry because again her book *Intimate Deception* is on betrayal, betrayal matters. Please hear that. Adultery matters. Abuse matters. Addictions matter. Please hear that. And for that, we need help.

But for a lot of things, it doesn't matter. Because Kathy wants to set the table different or she rearranges the way I do the dishwasher. That doesn't matter. And so sometimes we just have to go, okay, what matters? Because we can put our energy there instead of putting our energy in stuff that, to be honest, doesn't really matter. Okay? There you go. That's my pep talk today.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: Litmus test. If that person were to die this afternoon, what you just said, does all that stuff that really doesn't matter, would you have been annoyed at them in the last conversation? Probably not because those are the things that can be irritants, but they're just irritants like you said.

Jim Burns: Yeah, you're right. And I'm learning that. My wife Kathy has had some medical issues. We got to go to break, so hold that thought, Dr. Jim Burns. Medical issues. We'll be back on New Life LIVE.

Narrator: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

Brian Perez: There is so much going on here at New Life Ministries, and that's why we've put together a monthly newsletter. You can sign up for it on our website, newlife.com. Stay in the know on all of our webinars, courses, future show guests, etc. Again, go to newlife.com and while you're there, you might as well sign up for our daily devotional too. It's always a great way to start your day and maybe make a quick donation there too. That's always helpful to what we do here at New Life. But right before we go to the calls and Carrie we'll get to you in just a minute, Jim I just wanted you to finish your story that you were talking about.

Jim Burns: Well, so Kathy has had some medical issues. She got sepsis, pneumonia, was in the hospital for 25 days. Then she had a fall, so random. It had nothing to do with, well, she was weaker with the sepsis when she was out, so she's been back 42 times. What I've realized is that a lot of the things that Sherry was saying, all that stuff doesn't matter now. I'm thinking about her health and what not. And actually, care for me has become intimacy.

And I've never thought about it like that. There's a deeper intimacy, which means connection. And so I think she's right that sometimes we have to look if we just did it through the litmus test that Sherry said, does it matter really in the long haul that my wife doesn't like broccoli and I do? Okay, I just lied because I don't like broccoli either, but I was trying to give an illustration. But you know what I mean. Does your wife annoy you because she reminds you that you don't tie your shoes or whatever it is?

Well, okay, how did you know that? You've been talking to Kathy? But anyway, it just doesn't matter as much now. Especially with her now, I mean she's going to be great and she's on her way to healing. But the point being is when I was facing some pretty emergency things with sepsis with her, none of that other stuff even entered my mind. Whereas there's times when we're both doing okay where I'm like, why does she tell me that my blue shirt doesn't match my blue pants? And I just have to be more careful with that. And I think we all do. It'll help us with our relationships for sure.

That still doesn't mean that if there are deep, deep issues like we get a lot of calls here with deep issues, that doesn't mean that we don't deal with those, obviously. Yeah. And we're going to deal with them for two hours today, so call in to 1-800-229-3000. Let us begin our time on the phones with, can you punch that call for me please? Carrie in Winchester, Virginia, listening on WAVA. Welcome to New Life LIVE.

Carrie: Thanks so much for taking my call. I appreciate it.

Brian Perez: Yeah, what's going on, Carrie?

Carrie: Well, my husband and I have been married for about 30 years, which is wonderful. We are both Christians and I get very frustrated and I just want to know how to handle this. Sometimes, and again, as I was explaining to the other woman, I don't mean to sound judgmental, but sometimes his words and actions really, and I know it could be said of all of us, but it really, like I don't believe cussing is good. I don't believe yelling and screaming and calling people morons and things like that.

And I know we all do it, but it bothers me. And I don't know how I don't really know, like should I just leave it alone, let it be okay? But I'll say I'm not sure this is how we're supposed to act as Christians. And if I try to talk to him about something, he's gotten to the point where he'll just say, I don't want to talk about it. And I did tell him the other day when he says that it kind of makes me feel like he does not is not interested in what I have to say. And I just want like how should I am I should I just really step back, let go, and ignore what what help? What would you say?

Brian Perez: I just have a quick question. Does he say this also when it comes to non-spiritual matters where he says I'd rather not talk about things, or is it only when you bring up things of God?

Carrie: Both.

Brian Perez: Okay, so it goes beyond just the when you bring up the Bible or when you try to correct him on the way he's acting or something.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: I wish he was here right now. You know why, Carrie? Let me tell you why. Based on what Jim just brought up, this is not a little issue. This is one of those things that requires some intervention. And so to minimize it, to ignore it, to try to pretend that it isn't happening, when actually what you're doing is you're fighting for his heart.

But if if your husband were with us right now, you know the first thing I'd asked him? I would ask him how old he was when he first felt dismissed, when he felt belittled, when he didn't get the blessing of his dad, when he felt impotent as a man? How did he get missed? When did he get missed? And I would guess, I would dare to say, Carrie, that he was chronically missed growing up.

Now why do I say that? Because his behavior is telling on him. You know how I often share that, Carrie, when I just listen to the behavior. So if somebody is cussing, yelling, screaming, and calling people morons, what is he really trying to do? He's trying to inflate himself, make himself feel bigger, more powerful, and he's trying to make others look little. So guess who really feels little? Your husband.

He does. Okay. So just give us two sentences about what you know about him growing up because none of us would agree that calling people morons or cussing and screaming is good healthy behavior, but man is it telling. So just give us two sentences and then Jim's going to take us deeper.

Carrie: Yeah, he absolutely had a very difficult childhood and his father was an alcoholic and his father verbally abused him. So absolutely, you you pegged it.

Jim Burns: Isn't it amazing, Carrie, how we so often when we get married we're not thinking about it, but we we marry the family history. We marry what experienced what your husband experienced. And I'm just saying to you, you've hung in there for 30 years, great job.

The question I was going to ask, and it just happened, is have you and your husband ever been together and had this conversation with a counselor? A pastor, somebody who can kind of be the moderator?

Carrie: Well, I asked him a number of years ago to go talk to the minister with me. And it was we tried. The minister looked at him and he said, "Are you being unfaithful? Are you an alcoholic? Are you looking at pornography?" And all of those answers were no. And then the minister looked at me like, "Well, what's the problem?"

And that was it. That was it.

Jim Burns: I get it. I know. I so I'm a pastor and so I apologize on behalf of all pastors who don't know how to do a good conversation with counseling. That doesn't mean that your minister wasn't a very good person and had great intent and all that, but that was maybe the worst thing you could do. That's my humble opinion, Jim Party of one.

So in a counseling situation, there's a little bit more accountability that takes place. So say for example you were sitting with Sherry. And your husband was sitting with Sherry, she would have asked that question and that would have thrown him because he wouldn't be expecting that. He would have thought do you smoke, chew, or go with girls who do? Kind of thing, because we ministers we do that right Brian? We kind of do. Not all ministers, please hear that.

But the point that I'm saying is I would say that if you went and got some coaching or counseling with someone who is a good reputable person in the world of marriage, that they could help you greatly. For one thing, they could do what Sherry just did for you and help you I mean that's an that's a drop mic drop.

But the other thing that happens is, like say if you guys were meeting with me, I probably would have said how when she says that, how do you feel? What are you thinking? And he's not going to with me just say I don't want to talk about it. He probably would have at least brought up something we could learn a lot from that. He may not go deep, but at least there's some accountability because that's not the way you treat somebody after 30 years of marriage. It's not the way you treat somebody ever. It's just not a smart way.

The harder part, I'm dissecting the part about the Christian part. Because sometimes what we I mean people have bad habits. A bad habit would be calling and naming and screaming and doing all that stuff that you talked about. He's in a different spiritual place than you are, most likely. So we have to be careful that it doesn't come across as preaching or lecture-y even though that's kind of God's job.

So I think sometimes what I'll suggest to somebody and it sounds it goes against the grain of a pastor's heart like mine, but I would go against the grain and sometimes just say well let's just talk about the screaming and the yelling with that counselor. The faith thing can come up later. So you went to a you went to a pastor but now I would probably go to a to a counselor because of 30 years and you've stuck through this and he has. Honestly, I think there's some hope in the middle of this. If you'd be willing to do that. And if he won't, then I would suggest you do and kind of get some of that kind of coaching.

Carrie: Okay, that sounds good.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: You don't have to walk this alone, Carrie. And you know, it's so funny I think as Christians we're so afraid to use the J-word, which is judge. But you know what? God made judgments on bad behavior. And so what did I do? I made a clinical judgment. I was listening to how your husband is walking, how he's living, what he's saying, and Kowabunga, I made a clinical judgment questioning and guess what? It hit his heart, his bullseye.

Like he needs to have somebody mind his heart. And I think this is where couples work. Like he might go into therapy if he just goes by himself, guess what he's going to do? Carrie, she's always just she's always whining, she's all and that's going to spend they're going to spend thousands of dollars complaining about you. But you go in to a couples therapist who's really trained and then you're going to be there to be kind of a witness to where the conversation needs to go.

So we have counselors, Carrie, all over the United States and world probably. But stay on the line because we want to get you connected to one of our therapists that can actually start doing some deeper digging. And do we have one of our marriage intensives coming up?

Brian Perez: You read my mind, Sherry. Every once in a while. Yeah, it's in a couple of weeks actually in Washington D.C. And you're in Winchester, Virginia. It's probably walking distance. Okay, maybe not walking distance, but it's the weekend of July 24th, Washington D.C. Early bird discount ends this Friday. So anybody can sign up for this. Find out more about it at newlife.com or by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE. If you stay on hold, Carrie, we'll get you the information too. But Jim?

Jim Burns: And Carrie let me say one more thing and this is for all of our listeners why something like an intimacy in marriage conference is good. And I've said this all the time. Communication is a learned trait. Your husband doesn't know how to communicate clearly, but he can learn that. So when you talk about the conflict, I call it the positive conflict dance or the negative conflict dance.

And negative conflict dance when he's being confronted, he goes to defensiveness immediately and he shuts down. The positive conflict dance, and there's positivity when there's conflict. Conflict is neither good nor bad. It's how we handle it. We go to "we." How can we handle this? And sometimes at something like an intimacy and marriage conference or a counselor, you're going to learn the how do "we" look at this together. We may disagree on certain things, but we're going to work at it for "we" and we're going to try to resolve some of the issues. And you have issues and he has issues. So you both "we" can work on this.

That brings you to a much better relationship long-term and that's what you're looking for. And you know what? That's probably what he's looking for too and he's probably just stuck. So don't be afraid to go and get the learning on how to communicate more effectively because it sounds like he's kind of been in a rut for 30 years and maybe you have too in some ways.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: And I've been one of the therapists there at the intimacy intensive that we do here. And you know what's so weird? Being in a group process with other couples, hearing other husbands or wives talk, I've actually seen where layers of him sharing for the first time about growing up as an adult child of an alcoholic. If there's hidden addictions, it's weird, they often come up at a weekend like that and that might get them into a program that they need to get more care. So I think it's a great place to triage your marriage. And so because it's so close, sign up.

Brian Perez: Yep, it's two weeks from this weekend. So get all the details at newlife.com or by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Sign up by this Friday, you'll get the early bird discount. All right, quick break and then we'll be back with more of your phone calls. Terry Lynn and Justin, we'll talk to you guys when we return.

Narrator: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

Brian Perez: All right, we are back on New Life LIVE. 1-800-229-3000 is our number. We're going to be in the studio for the rest of this hour and all of next hour. We've got Dr. Sherry Denham-Keffer and Dr. Jim Burns here to talk to you. 1-800-229-3000.

Something else that we've got coming up in just a few weeks here at New Life, that's why I say you got to sign up for our newsletter, you'll always know what we're doing. But we've got some online courses that are coming up beginning the week of August 10th. And they're counselor-led. They are 12 weeks, that's the other part I wanted to say. Three of them: Lose It For Life, Healing is a Choice, and Take Your Life Back. They meet over Zoom for one hour a week. You'll experience small group community for encouragement, connection, and accountability. Get the details and sign up at newlife.com.

Again, this begins August 10th. Now if you're thinking, wait a minute, 12 weeks? I can do the one hour a week, but for 12 weeks? That just sounds like a lot. Well, here's what a participant in the Take Your Life Back online course shared in an email about how the group became a stabilizing force during a difficult season. Despite major family transitions, she remained committed to the 12-week course and described it as a place of clarity, support, and practical guidance. She credits the facilitator and group environment with helping her process her experiences and move forward with renewed confidence and a personal plan for healing.

Find out more at newlife.com. If you knew that help was I mean yeah, if you could just do this for 12 weeks. It reminds me of the story of the man who they told go dip in the Jordan seven times and he was just like that's what? No. So it's almost kind of in the same way. Go to this course for an hour a week for 12 weeks and we'll see what happens on the other side.

Jim Burns: You create a habit in 12 weeks. If I bit my fingernails for 12 weeks, that would be a habit that would become a lifetime habit. But there are positive habits that we can learn within that 12-week thing, too. So that's good for all of us to know.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: It's so funny, I often tell people when they start a process like that, I go, "Okay, I want you to take a snapshot of where you're at and who you are today. I want you to write it down because I promise you, you stay with it in 12 weeks I'm going to have you take another snapshot of yourself and where you're at." And just making them, asking them to do that on the front side and comparing it, it's a beautiful way to see your growth in that short amount of time.

Brian Perez: Take those before and after pictures like we see for those weight loss products or something, which by the way, one of the courses is on weight loss, it's called Lose It For Life. Check that out at newlife.com. Let's go back to the phones. Here is Terry Lynn, who listens to us in Yuba City on the New Life app. Thank you, Terry Lynn, for downloading the app and for calling us today at 1-800-229-3000. What's going on?

Terry Lynn: Thank you. Hi family. How are you? I'm so excited and Jim Burns is on the call and I'm an OC, I worked at MCS for many, many years and know a few of you by face. But so yeah, I have a question. And this was totally divine because I was outside this morning, spending my time with the Lord. And when I was done I looked at my phone to look at my schedule and y'all popped up and it was like, oh, well, the topic today caught my heart because of my question. Hold on a minute.

Brian Perez: By the way, you're listening to New Life LIVE, our phone number is 1-800-229-3000. You okay, Terry Lynn?

Terry Lynn: I am. I am. It's good. So anyway, it was divine for me to call today because I'm in a season of life that is amazing. In fact, I'm launching a life recovery or God is on July 21st up here in Yuba City. A 12-step. So I'm really excited about that.

But so my question, I have an adult son that after 15 miscarriages he was born to me in the Navy weighing one pound, nine ounces. Just a gift from God. I mean the church prayed him into it just he's a gift. Anointed, an evangelist, just let he's been serving Jesus his whole life since he's been born. And unfortunately, my marriage of 30 years ended. And Connor came to Connor has he's has been diagnosed born disability his whole life, so we've been always special Ed, special needs. He's been my life, my heart, my everything until he went off to start evangelizing across the world and then I stepped into outreach because I was an empty nester.

Well, through this divorce he has stopped talking to me. And he already struggles with his disability. He has diagnosed himself as an adult, he said "Mom, I think I have minimal autism." And so I already know his special needs and communication is his weakness. He's not one to communicate text, email he's just not his personality's not in him. However, I'm still his mom. And my mommy heart wants him to call me at Christmas or on my birthday or on Mother's Day.

And so I came to a place of acceptance that I'm going to respect his boundaries in my own therapy to allow him to grow and heal. This has been hard on him I'm sure. His whole his whole world just got rocked.

Brian Perez: Now Terry Lynn, we have to go to break, so we'll continue our conversation when we come back. How long ago was the divorce?

Terry Lynn: Six years. Well, we just six years I've been away from.

Brian Perez: Oh, so that was my next question. How long has it been since you've spoken with him or that he's called you on Mother's Day or anything like that?

Terry Lynn: Mother's Day does, but it's been six years when my son.

Brian Perez: Okay, all right, we'll continue the conversation when we come back here on New Life LIVE. 1-800-229-3000 is our number and we're going to talk to a lot of you today. We're going to get to the help that you need here at New Life LIVE.

Narrator: Everyday, we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression, all kinds of ways. Wouldn't you love to be part of a rescue team? Don't miss your opportunity to be part of something that changes lives every single day because every one matters. Your generosity helps find them. And you know, we've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life. And we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99 for the 1 is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE, 1-800-639-5433 or newlife.com/99for1. Join the mission. Rescue the one and restore the many.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

Brian Perez: And back to Terry Lynn, who listens to us in Yuba City, California. Terry Lynn, you said it's been, the music kind of cut us out there, it's been six years since you had a conversation with your son?

Terry Lynn: No, not six years. He's called me sporadically. And not really called me but it's been a group effort to call but it's not been six years. I've talked to him in between.

Brian Perez: Okay. And has there been any other effort on your part? Do you write to him? Do you text him or anything like that?

Terry Lynn: Absolutely, that was my question. And my question was when to hold them and when to fold them with mommy's heart never giving up. And so my question was I want to respect him. If he doesn't want to talk to me, so the Lord told me to send him scriptures and Messenger. And so I started that like a couple of years ago. I just started sending scriptures or I'd send and he didn't block me. He's not blocking me. So the God said see he's reading them. Keep doing that. And he doesn't respond, he never even if it's like "Son, I want to get you a Jesus shirt what size are you?" Nothing. I get nothing.

Nothing. So it's that. But and so I'm trying to just find my role. What is healthy for Connor and I?

Sherry Denham-Keffer: Was he close to your husband, your former husband?

Terry Lynn: Yeah, since he was four.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: Okay. And what what was the divorce about? Just give us a sentence.

Terry Lynn: Oh, I just my my husband came in and said he left the marriage. He's left the marriage. And so I suffered when I came up here they diagnosed me with CPTSD and trauma.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: So left the marriage meaning I have found somebody else, I have an affair? What does that mean?

Terry Lynn: He didn't say that. He didn't say that. He just said he said it to our son.

Brian Perez: Like he's emotionally checked out or something?

Terry Lynn: Yeah, and I believe a lot more than that but I'm not. I have proof. But it's okay, we're divorced now.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: Okay, so hold on, ho ho hold on. So he told your son he left the marriage? Your former husband did not come to you and you did not talk to your husband as to why the divorce was happening?

Terry Lynn: No, it was appalling to me that he had said that to Connor, a disabled child.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: And did you call your husband and say "What in the world? Why did you tell Connor that? What's happening in our marriage?" Did you do any of that?

Terry Lynn: He won't talk. He won't. He's a narcissist and he just he ghosted he just went MIA, he won't respond to me, he just left me in this place of trauma.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: So guess who else got left in a place of trauma? Connor. And I know this might be kind of hard to hear, one thing I am noticing about you Terry, and I could be wrong and please, please, I love that you're a woman of recovery, right? I love that you're in 12 step. I totally get that. And I know in 12 step they don't allow cross-talk, but can I do a little cross-talk with you? Can I just? Okay. I will be so tender with you.

One thing I'm noticing in your trauma is you have a very protective self, a part of you. It's a protector and I would call it the protective controller that is really trying to keep the pain underground, submerged. And so part of how that happens is it happens through saying I'm good, I'm good, or it happens through being spiritual. Like sending verses and I'm not telling you what God's telling you to do. What I'm saying, when we're hurting this bad, spiritualizing things, wanting to buy him a Jesus shirt, wanting to do things more distantly, maybe texting him or it's that you're not talking about it. You guys aren't being honest about the heartache that happens.

And so what what happens that protective self makes it feel fake or disconnecting. And I'm heartbroken, befuddled, rattled, angry about the fact that you could be in a 30-year marriage and be discarded. That's a narcissistic discard, to just be thrown away. But that's thrown Connor into what I would imagine would be triangulation. Like he's triangulating with his dad, he's probably talking with his dad, but the replication is you're feeling discarded by him too.

Terry Lynn: Exactly.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: And so your whole world, your only boy and your husband, you're estranged from them and you're trying to connect but you're trying to do it from a happy place when there's some real deep work for you to do to help you get to those deeper feelings of grief and loss and discard that I think that protector in you is is numbing out.

Terry Lynn: Yeah, I started to numb out. And at Christmas this last Christmas or a year ago I was praying and I thought okay got to prepare my heart, Connor's not in my life. And I just said "Lord, I'm done. I got to numb my mommy heart. I can't do this anymore. I have to do this." And God said "Hope. Don't you do that." And he gave me the word hope.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: But you know what hope means? Do you know what hope means? In the ancient Hebrew, the word for lust and I don't know what your husband was doing but I'm just going to bring you this it's Ava, which means the strong nail that hooks you to itself. He could have been lusting for life, lusting for whatever, he just narcissistically was going out there and grabbing whatever he could. Kaveh is the opposite. Kaveh is the derivative which means what comes after the nail. That's hope. But you've got to go into the piercing. And when we jump to hope right when we don't go into the piercing, you're not going to heal. I want you to heal. Jim wants you to heal. Brian wants you to heal. But I I would just take time with you and slow you down and not encourage you to bounce out or get busy, but to go into the deeper heartache that you need to cry and and deal with what's happened to you.

Jim Burns: You know I was thinking of a phrase Terry Lynn as Sherry was talking to you, before freedom comes pain. And so sometimes we do have to lean into the depth of our own pain and you have to an extent and you're doing really good things because you're starting this recovery group and on and on. And so again you may have to lean into some of the pain of being as she said discarded because that's a terrible place to be.

Let me ask you a question about Connor. If I was sitting with Connor and I said "Hey, Connor. How come you're kind of being estranged from your mom? What's that all about?" What would he say to me? Terry Lynn, you there?

Terry Lynn: Yeah, I'm thinking I'd go straight to he does he won't do anything unless my ex says it's okay. So he would look at his dad and his dad needs to bless whether he can you know talk to me.

Jim Burns: Yeah, okay, well that's that's actually quite insightful. So what in some ways he's taking on the same banner if you would of his dad.

Terry Lynn: Yeah and he's been at his side with special needs since he was four years old, would go into work with him, so they are like best friends.

Jim Burns: Yeah, okay. And they I get it. Does the dad also is the dad also an evangelist and does this kind of stuff?

Terry Lynn: Yeah, Pastor Randy. Oh yeah. Yes he is.

Jim Burns: I get it. Yeah, okay. Well you know your mom's heart is evident, it's beautiful by the way. And I'm not sure and again this really steps out because I'm not surely as I saw Sherry do this too. You don't want don't go with God, whatever he tells you to do. But I'm not sure Connor wants a Jesus T-shirt, he can probably afford his own Jesus T-shirt. What he may want is more of a mother's love.

And so what he doesn't need, and I'm not saying you're doing this, but what he doesn't need a "here's why I'm right and you're wrong and your dad's wrong" or any of that. I don't know if you do that. You don't want to do that. But your job right now is to bring this relationship to connection. And what's the best way to do that? And it might be honestly to back off of those messages, please don't hear me say I'm going against God. But to back off some of those messages and you know get on the same page as him and say "I'd love to connect with you, I'd love to see you," but then don't be the needy mom. Be the mom who's like "How are you? It's so great to see you, I miss you." Let him say his stuff and maybe you'll learn a lot.

Brian Perez: Terry Lynn, thanks for calling us today here on New Life LIVE. You called on the perfect day because we have Dr. Sherry Denham-Keffer here who's written a book called *Intimate Deception*, which you really should read. And Dr. Jim Burns has written *When Your Adult Child Strays*, which you should also read. Both books are available in the newlife.com store. I also sign up for Rescue, it's coming up August 1st. It's online. All the details on our website.

Narrator: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

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Let's talk to Lori in Charlottesville, Virginia. By the way, we're going to be here for another hour after this hour is done, so keep those calls coming at 1-800-229-3000. Hey Lori, thanks for watching us on YouTube. How can we help you?

Lori: Yes sir, thank you for taking my call. Yeah, what's going on? I was calling about I have an adult son who just recently got with a new girlfriend and had a baby. And he wanted me to be involved in all the appointments and so forth and was excited because of his other son, the mother of that child didn't really like me being in their life. And then as the baby the week the baby was born, everything changed.

The baby was born May 29th and I'm now estranged from him. I'm not allowed over there. I've seen the baby one time at the hospital. And since then, they needed time to heal, which was kind of unusual to hear that wording. And I gave them that. And then when I went over there, he said I came unannounced and then he sent a message with my husband telling me that he didn't want me or his sister in his life right now or anytime soon. And they blocked us from all social, his phone, email everything. So I have no way of communicating and it kind of crushed me and I just don't know what to do.

Jim Burns: That that is a very tough situation you're in. Is there a reason that he blocked you? I always want to ask that first in estrangement because some people don't know and other times there are. Sounds like there might have been something that took place right after the baby was born.

Lori: Well, I would send messages and ask them like every four or five days "when would be a good time to see the baby and come over and visit?" And I had bought them all kinds of stuff that he had wanted me to buy when they were pregnant. And him and his sister had an outing, well not actually him and his sister, it was the girlfriend and the sister. She had asked when could they come and see the baby. And the girl responded that she was being disrespectful because "I almost died and and you're asking about the baby instead of you know worrying about me dying." One thing led to another until they got into an argument. And then the next thing that same evening the bed that I had bought and a couple of items I had bought not all of them was returned to my front porch. So I got put in the mix.

Jim Burns: Yeah, that's that's very hurtful. And you don't really then know there's not a a way that was about the sister, but anything with you? Did was there this girlfriend is really taking the lead and place putting you out of the relationship? Is that right?

Lori: Yes sir, they claim they were married when they were just dating and I had asked my son, "son, you really did that?" And so he promised me that they was going to have a wedding. And then he needed to honor his wife. Well, when she was in the hospital it was revealed that she was going by her maiden name. And so there's no there's no wedding, there's no they may have done it under God but they haven't done it legally. And so that has been I've been noticing some lies from the girlfriend.

Have had did you talk to them about that? Would that be one of the things that might have caused this broken relationship?

Lori: No, I haven't revealed it. I kind of keep keep things to myself because when he gets with the girlfriend he likes to do what they want to do and if you bring up anything then he gets upset so I've learned over the years that and then when the when things go sour he'll tell you that please don't keep quiet, let me know if you see things. And so if I try even begin to try to tell him something he'll stop me and say "you know she's my first responsibility." So I just back off.

Jim Burns: No, I think it's smart to back off at this point with that. I oftentimes say the way to our sons and to the grandchildren is through the what I'm going to say the daughter-in-law doesn't sound like they're married but same same thing in many ways. And so again you may slowly but surely you sent gifts for the baby, you might want to send a just say "I hope you're doing well," just change the the tone. You send a gift to her. The gift could be a $25 Starbucks card, it's not a big big thing. But where that you begin to see that sometimes they'll open up. Long-term, I have a feeling you can get back into this relationship. But not by being pushy but by being kind of waiting this thing out. And also, cheering them on whenever if you ever need babysitting. Do they live by you?

Lori: They do live.

Jim Burns: Yeah, that's what I sent. So if you ever need babysitting, if you're ever in a bind, you know I'm I'm here for you guys. So continue to be positive. This is not the time to try to mend every part of the relationship with words as much as even sometimes some of the actions. And you know, we're running a marathon here not a sprint. So you may it may take a little while but I find I was just talking with a woman yesterday who had a very similar situation to yours, very similar. And today she's you know now babysitting the grandkids and is the love of the daughter-in-law where the daughter-in-law was very intimidated by the mom. So you know, what she did was she kept doing stuff like that. Sherry?

Sherry Denham-Keffer: Yeah, I I don't know if you guys are aware, this is new for me. I actually found out about it through a couple of clients and a friend of mine, a dear, dear friend, that there's a trend right now. A social trend. And I'm going to I'm going to read it because I wanted to know what it was called, but there's a modern trend of adult children detaching from their parents. It's often called "going no contact" or "low contact." The research that's been done so far indicates that around 25 percent of young adults are estranging themselves from parents where these younger generation is prioritizing their mental health, their personal boundaries, and self-care over maintaining traditional family ties.

And how I found out about this is through births because there are young parents that are having babies right I mean parents that go and pay money to have the nursery all set up and you know tradition has it that you would be there in the hospital or nearby so you could come to see the baby and hold it and then be available in the weeks following. But younger generation is now pulling away. It is so okay. So it's a thing Lori. I'll have Jim I know we're probably close to ending but I just wanted to normalize it so that you don't carry the burden of this whole dilemma realizing that this is a shared dilemma by many parents right now.

Jim Burns: Yeah, we have to be real careful it is, it's and because of that they're going with that trend. But there's good answers to it. They eventually come back because they come back to love, they come back to community, they come back to a sense of belonging but you got to be really, really patient with them.

Sherry Denham-Keffer: Interesting, interesting.

Brian Perez: Perhaps a life recovery group that we can find for Lori there in Charlottesville, Virginia who can help her you know be in this group of other people that are going through the same thing and you can also pick up Dr. Jim Burns's book. It's called *When Your Adult Child Strays*. It's in the newlife.com store or you can call us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE to order. We're going to be here for another hour so keep on calling. Anne and Antoine, we'll get to you soon.

Narrator: Thanks so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it and rate it. Remember, we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to newlife.com to find out more information. And thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing and we're so glad that you're here.