New Life LIVE

Brian Perez: Welcome to the New Life Live Podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Hey, welcome to New Life Live. I'm your host, Brian Perez. We're going to be in the studio for two hours today, and we can't wait to talk to you about whatever it is that you need help with, whatever you're struggling with: grief, depression, betrayal, sexual integrity. Call in. 1-800-229-3000 is our number.

Here to answer your questions, we've got clinical psychologist Dr. Jill Hubbard and licensed marriage and family therapist Chris Williams. Chris, hi. Hi, Jill. And what's on your mind to start us off?

Chris Williams: It's great to be here. Well, I have another confession. I was hoping you wouldn't. That's why I didn't set you up that way, but okay. We're ready for you, Chris. I've got all kinds of issues. We're just scratching the surface, Brian. Talk to you, Chris.

Welcome to my personal confession. I'm glad you can join us. And here's the confession today: I have suffered plenty of addiction issues in my life. I've really discovered an addiction that I've been a part of that's been a part of my entire life. It's comfort.

I think every human being is, to a greater or lesser degree, creatures of comfort. And so I love comfort. I don't like getting out of my comfort zone, and I don't like things that are uncomfortable unless, of course, I'm in control of it all.

I only say this because I believe that fear drives us in the wrong direction when it comes to purely comfort. What fear does is it moves us away from the reality of the uncomfortable life here on planet Earth. Life here is going to be uncomfortable.

As Jesus promises us, we will face trials of many kinds. Paul talks deeply in Romans about how our suffering and our trials lead to ultimately character development. Obviously, James then says, "Hey, consider it pure joy when you face trials of many kinds." Peter talks about it in first and second Peter that suffering is a way that God uses to form us and to reform us over and over and over again.

One of the primary psychological definitions is taken from M. Scott Peck, but adopted into the recovery world: addiction is a radical commitment to escape reality. That's what comfort oftentimes does for us. It gets us to escape the reality of life.

Now again, in small doses, in relief, listen, there's plenty of health around that. But for too many of us, our avoidance of the struggle, our avoidance of the realities of life, what it does over time and what it does to me is it breaks down resiliency.

When it breaks down resiliency, it starts breaking down character. If we reverse engineer that verse in Romans chapter five, then it breaks down character, then it breaks down hope, then it breaks down perseverance. Ultimately, my addiction to comfort does not build me up. It actually breaks me down.

Jill Hubbard: And isn't it living by the myth that we should only have good feelings?

Chris Williams: Yeah, absolutely. We become addicted to feeling good. The term I use for it is emotional entitlement. Addiction creates an emotional entitlement, and that is that I'm entitled to feel good 100 percent of the time. That is not life here on planet Earth.

And so there needs to be some tough love and reality, a commitment to reality, moving into reality. I believe Jesus is the Jesus of reality. If today your reality is tough and you're avoiding it, call us. Let us help guide you back into the reality where God is going to dwell. God is doing his work and there is hope and perseverance and character and ultimately his redemptive work.

Brian Perez: The number to call is right there on the bottom of your screen if you're watching us online, but I'll tell you what it is when we come back.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-New-Life. Now back to New Life Live.

Becky Brown and I were blessed to have a special guest on yesterday's episode of New Life Live, a neurosurgeon, trauma survivor, war veteran, and author of a book titled The Life-Changing Art of Self-Brain Surgery. It's available in the NewLife.com store. His name is Dr. Lee Warren.

If you missed it or you just want to hear it again, it's on our website, NewLife.com, and also on our YouTube channel. Maybe you were driving around while the show was on yesterday, so you couldn't take notes. You can do that by listening to it again. Take your notes and then purchase this book, what I like to call the life-changing art of self-Brian surgery, because I do need some things that I can change, and so can everyone really. So pick up the book in the NewLife.com store.

The number to call us for the next two hours is 1-800-229-3000. Let's go to the phones now. Here is Laura listening on SiriusXM channel 131 in Dallas, Texas. Hey there, Laura. Welcome to New Life Live.

Guest (Laura): Hi, thank you. My question is about my six-year-old grandson. He possibly has ADHD. He's very high energy, very fast, all over the place, and his parents, my daughter and son-in-law, are having a difficult time raising him. They don't know what to do.

For example, yesterday he took a brick and threw it at their dog. Luckily, my daughter saw that. But it's one thing after another, and they're just exhausted and wondering what they need to do.

Brian Perez: Laura, has there been any assessment of the six-year-old? Has he been to a child psychologist to do any testing?

Guest (Laura): Not yet, but she did talk to the teacher. The teacher had not recommended anything, but she asked the teacher if she should get him tested and she said, "Well, that's up to you. You could look into that during the summer if you want to." She took him to the pediatrician and he said the same thing, that they could wait and see if he matures a little bit or they could go ahead and get him tested. She hasn't done that yet. She also has a five-month-old baby, so she's been kind of overwhelmed.

Jill Hubbard: That makes perfect sense. And probably because of the five-month-old, she is concerned about what sounds like impulsive behavior, maybe some anger that he has.

But a little boy—you have boys, Chris, I had a boy—completely different from my little girl. Night and day in terms of the energy. Their bodies are very physical, they do move a lot, and that's how they first experience the world. Some of this could fall off as he matures.

But it certainly has to be guided and parameters put around these types of behavior. Yeah, it's nonstop. And so being able to help him put words to what he's feeling. Like what happened right before he threw the brick at the dog? What were you feeling? Did something happen with the dog? Were you mad at the dog? What is his perception? Was he thinking the dog would catch the brick? What is his awareness of what he's doing?

Guest (Laura): Yeah. I don't think he even had bad intentions. That's my perception of it. It's like, "Oh, let's try this." But those are good questions.

Chris Williams: Oftentimes when we see children, we want to pigeonhole it into one thing. Well, it's ADHD, or well, it's bad parenting, or well, it's environment, some sort of thing or one thing. I typically find that it's really important that you stay open to all of the things.

Yes, I do believe get him some testing, see what's going on out there. We're not looking at just a psychological diagnosis or psychiatric diagnosis with medication. We are looking at environment. We are looking at parenting. It's really important that everyone protects themselves from the shame monster. I know I talk about the shame monster a lot, but it can creep into this. Parents think that they are bad parents because their child isn't behaving properly. The child then adopts that shame: "I can't control my impulses, so I'm a bad kid."

No, this is just a thing that he struggles with that needs intervention and care. We're going to look at all of the ways in which we can intervene and care for him. Jill, I think that's really important. One of the things that helps us get all of us, adults and children, a little bit more control over our experiences is being able to identify it.

I have this little acronym called AID. It's my emotional aid. A-I-D. It stands for: I start to be aware. I have emotional experiences that I'm aware of. Once I have awareness that I'm feeling something or something's going on inside of me, then I can identify that, meaning I can name what that is, maybe even where it comes from. But at least I can identify it. And the D stands for disclosure. I can tell someone else what I'm experiencing.

What that does is, rather than being controlled by the emotional or internal experience and it making all the decisions, it slows the whole process down to help get a different part of our brain online. Now, that's a big ask for a six-year-old, and so I don't want to put all of that on him. But if the adults around him can start modeling that and if they can help him.

One of the things I think would be really important is to have a feelings chart. We have one on the side of our refrigerator. It's a magnet and has pictures of faces like emojis. The more that he can start identifying and, again, the best that he can in his little six-year-old mind and body, it just helps. It's one intervention that can help curb the impulse and help him in the long term.

Jill Hubbard: And even starting with the four basic: mad, glad, sad, and afraid. Starting with those four because he may not know the more other emotions. Starting there to get him to start to identify. It means instead of always getting mad and frustrated at him because he's throwing a brick at the dog, taking the time to sit with him. "Let's talk about what happened. I wonder what you might have been feeling. What was the dog doing?" Start doing that. Even if he's incapable of it completely, the parents are saying the words for him and he's making the connection so that he will be aware in the future. It's also teaching him we think about our behavior. We don't just react and do things without thinking. We pause and we reflect. That's important to build in.

Brian Perez: Do you think the Comfort Circle would help Laura's daughter and son-in-law?

Chris Williams: With each other, I think so. It might be a little much for a six-year-old. But them having that as a resource in their marriage because these behavioral issues have a contagion to them. What I mean by that is that it really disrupts the entire family. It can disrupt a marriage, it can disrupt parenting. That's why I start with fighting against the shame monster first. No one's bad here. We're just dealing with an issue.

Jill Hubbard: We're curious. We're trying to figure out what's going on. Like you said, Chris, look in all directions, because even look at his diet. Sometimes I remember I was trying to be a good mom, feeding my kid, getting up making these great breakfasts, only to find out he was allergic to everything I was feeding him. So you have to check all levels, all areas.

Chris Williams: The last thing I would say with this is that the care that they need—Laura, thank you so much for being such a good grandparent and jumping in and supporting them the way they need it. As parents and the kids as well, they're just going to need as much healthy, loving support as they can get right now.

Guest (Laura): I think that's wonderful and I think all of y'all are wonderful and the show is also awesome. You're doing God's work.

Brian Perez: Thanks, Laura. God bless you. Thanks for calling into New Life Live at 1-800-229-3000. And if you do want to get those books that I mentioned, they're in the NewLife.com store: How We Love and How We Love Our Kids.

1-800-229-3000 is the number to call us for the next hour and a half or so. Ryan, hi. Hi, Ryan, it's Brian. You are in Asheville, North Carolina, and you just found out about New Life Live. Who told you about us? How'd you find out about us?

Guest (Ryan): I was just listening on the SiriusXM app, and I just started listening after the program that's on from 12:30 to 1.

Brian Perez: That's right. Don't touch that dial. That's good stuff on channel 131. How can we help you today?

Guest (Ryan): I was asking about my 18-year-old son. He grew up in a Christian household where we homeschooled him, brought him to church. The whole love of Israel was also instilled in him by not only me—when I got saved, I fell in love with Israel as God says, the apple of his eye—and just taught him how to honor Israel. The churches that we attended over the 18 years did the same thing, always honored Israel.

The last six months to one year, he has completely talked now in family circles. Even at events, he'll talk bad about Jews and some conspiracy things about Israel that I don't uphold to, and it breaks my heart. I didn't know if you had any suggestions on how to go about those conversations because they do come up every time we're together. He doesn't live in our house at this time, but when we get together for family events, it surely comes up.

Jill Hubbard: Is he away at school or where is he living?

Guest (Ryan): He took a gap year, so he is actually living in an apartment.

Jill Hubbard: You raised him the way you wanted him to go, and we do know that kids, as they become young adults, they have to make their own way. That separation and individuation that needs to occur, and sometimes it can occur in ways that are quite disturbing. It can look like they're completely going in the opposite direction of everything that you taught them.

For some, it's like coming full circle. They almost have to go in the opposite and come back around and then settle and make decisions for themselves because just to stay with what mom and dad believe and taught, sometimes they lack their own voice and their own conviction.

My prayer would be that this is part of him finding his own conviction. And so, but it's a wild ride for you. Your job is to not get reactive or angry about his exploration but to be curious and to listen. So, I hear that you have some new ideas and some different thoughts. Tell me about that. What are you thinking? How does that compare to what you were taught growing up? Where did things start to change for you? Help me understand.

If you cannot be reactive, you can earn his trust where he will maybe talk out loud with you based on the relationship that has been there. You want to also hear him—I always say you want to get them saying what they think out loud because then they have a chance to evaluate their own thoughts and to really articulate and to see how it sounds in the face of people who aren't necessarily agreeing with them. It's a hard thing. Hang in there with him.

Brian Perez: Do you think the Comfort Circle would help Ryan's daughter and son-in-law with him learning it?

Chris Williams: With each other, I think so. It might be a little much for an 18-year-old. But them having that as a resource in their marriage because these behavioral issues have a contagion to them. And what I mean by that is that it really disrupts the entire family. It can disrupt a marriage, it can disrupt parenting.

That's why I start with fighting against the shame monster first. No one's bad here. We're just dealing with an issue. Jill mentioned it earlier in the show, get into his world through curiosity. What's he experiencing?

Jill Hubbard: Looking in all directions, look at his diet. I was trying to be a good mom, feeding my kid, making these great breakfasts, only to find out he was allergic to everything I was feeding him. You have to check all levels, all areas.

Chris Williams: Thank you so much for being such a good parent and supporting them the way they need it. As parents, the kids as well, they're just going to need as much healthy, loving support as they can get right now.

Brian Perez: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-New-Life. Now back to New Life Live.

Alright, let's go back to Ryan. Quick question for you, Ryan: is your son learning this stuff on a college campus, or is he watching certain YouTube videos or following certain influencers? Has his friends changed? Has he stopped going to church? What else is different?

Guest (Ryan): He didn't learn it on a college campus. We assume it's online influencers. I've said that to him and then he usually says that I'm brainwashed by MAGA or something as a Republican type voter. He just says, "Well, you're just brainwashed that Israel can't do anything wrong" or something like that.

I explain to him, "You might not agree with the government of Israel, but there's still something we've taught you about honoring the people of Israel because that's where our Messiah came from." I point to prophetic examples as well in the Bible in Ezekiel, things like that, about how God honors people who honor Israel and talks about how Israel's going to come back around to Christ. I mention these things.

Jill Hubbard: And he listens. So you guys are able to have dialogue about it.

Guest (Ryan): He is, but then we end with "you're brainwashed." He'll say that in front of others as well, grandparents, in-laws, son-in-laws, and things of that nature. So it's just alarming. But I will definitely take your advice in terms of just asking him where he got that information from.

Jill Hubbard: Well, and if I'm brainwashed, okay, then enlighten me. Help me understand.

Chris Williams: This is very common because the truth of the matter is that there's many different perspectives on what Israel means in Christendom. In the whole world of Christianity and theology, is Israel a location, is it a representation of a people, whatever it may be. There's a lot out there.

Having a deeply held conviction about one or the other is not a bad or wrong thing because where I go here is like if we have all of these litmus tests for relationship based on theological interpretation, we get into some pretty relationally dangerous territory.

I can't speak to all things theological, but I can say to relationship: we want to stick with relational characteristics. You may disagree with me, you may think the information I'm getting is not accurate, but let's talk about when you say brainwashed. That insinuates that I'm not a thinking, functional human being with agency. Can we use language that is more respectful, that is more honoring in the midst of our differences?

Ever more in our world today, and I do believe it is absolutely fueled by social media, is that we are creating unending lists of litmus tests of whether you're in or you're out. No wonder why everyone's out because everyone feels isolated because no one can meet all the litmus tests.

What I mean by that is now if you believe this particular thing, you can't be a good person. We get stuck in this horrible judgmental binary. What we want to come back to is: what are the relational characteristics, especially that Jesus points out? Are we patient, are we kind? Do we honor each other? Do we hold respect? Do we let our love be sincere, as Paul tells us in Romans? Those are the aspects, especially in family relationships, that I want to encourage families to hold highest. Hold highest the relational-characterological attributes because the one eternal attribute that is clear in scripture is love. Love not as a sentiment, but love as a really hard work that doesn't end this side of heaven. It's going to cause us to be refined in our character, in our connections over and over and over again.

Jill Hubbard: If the debate about Israel is just going round and round, then don't keep going down that path. I think it's about, regardless of what we each think about Israel, let's just talk about how we treat people in general regardless of their ethnicity. What is the standard for that? Because people do get polarized and then feel entitled to treat people horribly, and is that ever okay?

Chris Williams: There was something near and dear to my heart in this particular thing. I remember being in Israel on a New Life trip. We took a tour of the Holocaust Museum there, and it just kind of walks you through the entire experience. One of the things that hit me hardest there, that really honestly shook me to my bones, is that that whole movement of eliminating a group of human beings from the planet started with dehumanizing that group, almost animalistically dehumanizing them.

And that's where I'm like, oh man, evil dwells in that place. Going back to: hey, we're all image bearers. I'm not saying we're all saved, I'm not saying we're all right. I'm just saying that there is inherent value as human beings and that is a starting point that now all of the characterological aspects of health and relationships and scripture now make sense based on human beings are inherently valuable.

Brian Perez: Ryan, thanks for calling us today on New Life Live. We've got to take a break. 1-800-229-3000 is our number, and we're going to talk to you next.

Every day we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression, all kinds of ways. Wouldn't you love to be part of a rescue team? Don't miss your opportunity to be part of something that changes lives every single day because every one matters. Your generosity helps find them.

We've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life, and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99 For The 1 is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-New-Life, 1-800-639-5433, or NewLife.com/9941. Join the mission. Rescue the one and restore the many.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-New-Life. Now back to New Life Live.

Alright, let's go back to Ryan, and we do have some other calls coming in as well. 1-800-229-3000 is our number. For our previous caller Ryan, we would recommend that you get the book When Your Adult Child Strays by our good friend Dr. Jim Burns. It's in the NewLife.com store.

This weekend is going to be a game-changer, a life-changer for lots of guys, a turning point. We are so excited for the guys who are going to be at the Every Man's Battle weekend workshop intensive. It starts this Friday. These are men who realized, "This isn't who I want to be," men who are tired of the secrecy, of the patterns they can't break, and of the disconnect it creates in their life, their relationships, and their faith. Men who will learn that they were never meant to fight this alone.

Still room for you to join these men at the Every Man's Battle workshop. It's this weekend in Washington, D.C. You can get the details at NewLife.com. If finances are holding you back, you might qualify for a need-based scholarship. You can find out more about that when you call 1-800-New-Life.

If you want to talk to Dr. Jill Hubbard and Chris Williams, it's a different number: 1-800-229-3000. Here is Martin in Fredericksburg, Virginia, listening on WAVA. Welcome, Martin, to New Life Live.

Guest (Martin): Hey there. First-time listener. I was just passing through and heard you on the radio. I'm at a pretty low point because last night I had an altercation with my dad. Him and my mom were alcoholics growing up. He still is and he was drunk last night. She died of her alcoholism about 10 years ago. He's remarried since then.

I wonder if the altercation would have happened if I was in a better position. I have a lot of shame attached to that because you mentioned comfort earlier, and I've been in a dead-end job for 10 years that can go nowhere and is barely supporting me. It's really not supporting me, and I think that's part of the argument we had is some of the support he's given me and his frustration with me.

I'm just wondering what I should do. If I should stop trying to reach this ideal that I've been failing to reach for a decade now and shift gears and, in a way, do the comfortable thing and do something closer to the job I'm in now, which would probably be nursing. I feel like I could maybe get to a comfortable living situation if I just shifted gears in that direction.

Chris Williams: Oh, Martin, my heart breaks for you, man, because you have grown up in a system that, unfortunately, has trained you well. It's trained you well mostly through confusion. When we're in relationship with a person active in addiction, especially active in alcoholism, you're relating to the intoxication or the impacts of intoxication most of the time, and the thinking in between.

Oftentimes a person that's caught up in that has a lot of anger and has a lot of shame or defenses, definitely defense mechanisms. My guess is that a lot of times—again, we're sweeping with a broad stroke here for sure—but the alcoholic tends to go one of two directions when they're confronted with something. Nothing is their fault, or everything is their fault. You can't win either way.

Guest (Martin): I think my mom probably went in the other direction.

Chris Williams: They fall on this horrible thing of, "Woe is me, I'm responsible for all the problems in the world," and then you feel like you have to take care of them because they feel so badly. The other thing is that if nothing is their fault, then you feel bad about yourself. But the reality of a situation or the reality of the relational truths are denied. That's where the confusion comes in.

Oftentimes in those situations as well, you feel like you've got to take care of everyone else's feelings and everyone else's expectations except for your own. So let me ask a simple question. Martin, do you like nursing?

Guest (Martin): If I didn't like helping people, I wouldn't have been doing what I've been doing for 10 years, which is pharmacy technician. There's no up for me. There's no beyond being the lead, there's nothing as far as more money. But maybe that's why I'm telling myself, and it's just that I've been comfortable and didn't want to move. I'm not sure.

Chris Williams: That confusion, that ambiguity around your own wants, your own needs, tells me a lot. You never had permission to think your own thoughts, feel your own feelings, have your own desires, and pursue your own pursuits. That's what happens when we are adult children of alcoholics.

That's a term I want you to get very, very familiar with. It's called ACA. There is a whole program around that, and that's one of the telltale signs: there is this denial or even this numbness to our own internal world, including our desires. We carry this fear around about ourselves around the entire time.

Jill Hubbard: In fact, the big book of ACA is really good, packed full of great information, Martin, if you could get your hands on one.

Chris Williams: If you'll notice internally, you probably carry what I call a lot of question marks in your heart, question marks in your mind. Everything's a question. "Do I do this, or do I do that?" When you start working ACA recovery, those question marks turn into periods. You get a complete sentence. Eventually, you find the exclamation points, and those are really fun—the things that God has designed you to do, the things that you pursue through belief and resilience and purpose.

The restoration of the self through that process, I think, is really important. The last thing to say is that this is a harsh way to say it, and I don't mean to be demeaning or diminishing towards your dad. I just mean this about getting engaged with conflict with people who are under the influence or caught up in these processes.

Guest (Martin): I could tell when I walked in that evening that trouble was brewing.

Chris Williams: He's angry and you're in the way. You want to learn how to set boundaries, strong boundaries, including the external boundary that if you're intoxicated or if you're in an angry place, in a rageful place, I'm out. The internal boundary is whatever you have to say to me means nothing. All of the manipulative aspects that go around that, you have to protect your internals from.

Jill Hubbard: The hard part is if you're wanting approval from your dad who probably hasn't been able to give that consistently, and you feel like you've disappointed him, and you've also disappointed yourself, it hooks you. Your first clue when you walk in and you know, and you've probably, Martin, how old are you?

Guest (Martin): 32.

Jill Hubbard: At 32, you've gone round and round with your dad enough to know how the arguments start and where they always end up. Learning from that experience and circumventing it. "You know what, Dad, I was just stopping by for a quick minute. Let's pick up this conversation tomorrow. I gotta go."

Remove yourself, Martin, before it starts hooking you in and you go down your own spiral of shame and bad feelings. Then it's confusing, like you were saying, Chris: whose desires are these? Are they mine? Are they Dad's? Maybe you like being a pharmacy tech. I don't know, is that what you like to do? There are lots of options, but it's you knowing who you are, what you want apart from Dad.

Chris Williams: Living for your dad's approval is going to be a fool's errand the rest of your life. It's not going to work.

Guest (Martin): I just need to be okay. I need to have a living wage, and that is not where I'm at right now.

Jill Hubbard: That's true. You're 32 and if you're still dependent on Dad, which lots of young people are, especially in this day and age. But yeah, you're right, you do need a living wage, and there is a reality to your fully grown up when you are self-supporting. It gives you the emotional separation you also need.

Brian Perez: Do you think Martin would benefit from the Take Your Life Back book? We have that in the NewLife.com store and, Martin, we also have a 12-week course called Take Your Life Back. It begins in August, so plenty of time for you to sign up. It's 12 weeks, one hour a week. It's about taking your life back.

Here you are telling us all these things. It's not a mistake, it's not a coincidence that you happened to find us today. First-time listener, you just happened to tune by on your radio and there we were. Not only were you listening, but you called in, you were prompted to call in. So it's time for you to take your life back, man. Thank you so much for calling today. Find out more about the other courses that we're offering in August as well on our website, NewLife.com. More calls coming right up.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-New-Life. Now back to New Life Live.

If you're watching us on Facebook or YouTube right now and you're wondering why Dr. Jill Hubbard's voice changed—no, it's me, it's Brian. I'm over here on the other side. We're fixing all that, don't worry. Chris Williams is here too.

Thank you so much for watching and listening today to New Life Live. 1-800-229-3000 is our number. We've had a couple of first-time listeners, first-time callers today, and it's because of your support to this ministry that we can stay on the air on radio stations all over, including SiriusXM.

Thank you for your financial support. You can support us online at NewLife.com or by calling 1-800-New-Life or by texting NLM to 28950. Thank you so much for whatever you can do. You can also become a monthly supporter. That's called the Club 99 For The 1 partners. Thank you again for your generosity. Back to the phones now, and where is—there she is, Tiffany in Texas listening on KWRD. Welcome to New Life Live, Tiffany.

Guest (Tiffany): Thank you so much. I'm not a first-time listener. I love y'all. I've been listening for years. What prompted the call was hearing how wonderful that grandparent was earlier. I'm like, oh, I just so desire to have that said about me.

My daughter's been very sick and had to endure three emergency surgeries back-to-back. So I know she's trying to do the best she can. Her husband has really worked hard trying to reel in their 14-year-old son who is autistic, he's high-functioning, he's genius—and I'm not just saying that because he's my grandson. He is off-the-charts smart.

I have to remind myself that sometimes he struggles to read the room. Being 14 as well is a difficult—you're not quite grown and you're not quite he. He's trying to find his place while he's trying to get noticed and be at the jocks' table at school.

I shared with him—he loves chess, so we connect over chess. I wish I could say I'm this great chess player. I will share with parents out there: no-stress chess is the way to go. You draw these cards and they tell you about the pieces and what that piece can do. So my grandkids think I'm a genius.

Brian Perez: Oh, thanks for the tip. No-stress chess. Sounds wonderful.

Guest (Tiffany): We were playing that and I'm just trying to connect with him, and I shared with him that we have to be careful because distractions do exactly what they're designed to do: they'll distract us from what matters. I said, "Well, let's look at chess. Look at all these pawns and how many they are and they're fodder. They're easily discarded. They can be considered worthless."

I said, "But a knight, let's look at that knight. Let me give you an experience when Nana was in school. I had an opportunity—I didn't realize it at that time—but there was a kid, a fellow classmate whose parents were progressive. This child learned differently and looked a little different, but she was an only child and her parents didn't want her streamlined in the special education. They wanted her to be life-integrated in with kids of general ed. Unfortunately, that put her in the crosshair of bullies and they would do mean things to her.

One day they did a very mean thing to her in front of me, and I knew that was wrong. So I stepped forward and I told them to stop. They had put ketchup on a Kotex and put it on her shoulder and were all standing around making fun of her. I took that off and I threw it away. I shared I grew up with three brothers, I knew how to take care of myself and they knew I knew how to take care of myself. So no one messed around with her in my presence."

Brian Perez: Really quick, Tiffany, because we're running out of time on today's show: what is it that we can help you today with your grandson?

Guest (Tiffany): Well, I shared with him that if we're not careful, our actions can make us look like worthless pawns. Two days later, he's mocking me, he's been very disrespectful. I'm just trying to acquiesce. So I said to him, I was very surprised at his behavior. I said, "Your behavior makes you look like a worthless pawn. Why are you doing that?"

He went to my daughter and said, "Nana called me a worthless pawn." She's not spoken to me. It's little texts here and there, and that's it. So I've educated myself on "be careful." I understand the cancel culture now. I just want to make sure I'm doing this right. I pray for him, I welcome Jesus into recovery and resolution in our relationship. But I'm also concerned with me because I am what, avoidant attachment? And I'm like, if my good enough is not good enough, I'm ready to step away from this. I love my daughter, will always love my grandson, will always, but I'm tired of chasing.

Chris Williams: Tiffany, let me jump in on something here because this really stood out to me: the statement that our behavior can make us a worthless pawn. I'm thinking about that from the 14-year-old's perspective. That could be a very dangerous, damaging, and shameful type of message. Our behavior can tell us that we're off, but our behavior doesn't make us worthless.

Guest (Tiffany): Correct. I hear you.

Chris Williams: You're telling a story and it's sort of an analogy that you're using to teach and guide and you're using a great metaphor using chess and stuff like that. But if he's sensitive, which it sounds like he is because if he already feels different from just the way that he is wired and then his behavior then also makes him feel like unworthy, less than, then as Grandma, you're the last thing you ever intended to do is have him feel bad about himself.

Exactly. But what I want to encourage—because that's also where that "not good enough," that attachment thing comes in—when we do the hard work of discovering and cultivating and embracing God's inherent value inside of us and inside of other people, we can address behavior from a different aspect. Behavior in which people are ridiculed hurts and it's mean and it's not part of God's design. And then moving into—again, he may have some of those relational barriers with his condition—get into his world through curiosity. What is he experiencing? Is Grandma the safe place where I can just kind of be myself? And what I would encourage is an opportunity to go and repair the comment that was made.

Jill Hubbard: As smart as he is, he may be genius, but being on the spectrum, he takes things concretely. And so what he is taking it to mean—I don't know what the history is with your daughter and for her to just believe her son flat out without checking it out with you, I wonder about that. But to maybe say to her, "You know, I was trying to be helpful and give him a metaphor that would make sense to him, and I think the words I used were probably not the best choice with further reflection. I realize that maybe it meant something different to me than it meant to him." And so to ask for that opportunity to repair. Clarify because I think you heard something that I wasn't intending.

Chris Williams: In the atmosphere of cancel culture or I would say high avoidant behavior is that if I'm offended I can cut people off. If I've offended somebody, in a world of rupture we want to be people of repair. Let's get into the repair and that teaches really good relational behavior.

Brian Perez: Tiffany, thanks for calling. We're going to be here for another hour. Thanks so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to NewLife.com to find more information. And thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing, and we're so glad that you're here.