New Life LIVE

Brian Perez: Hello and welcome to this Independence Day weekend edition of New Life LIVE. I'm your host, Brian Perez, here in the studio with Dr. Alice Benton. She's a clinical psychologist and author of a new book that you can find on Amazon. It's called 100 Days of Biblical Family Engagement. Alice, good to have you here in the studio. Also here is Mark Cameron. He's a licensed marriage and family therapist and author as well. Understanding Your Attachment Style is the name of his book. And Mark, what's on your mind? By the way, sorry about that whole thing that happened 250 years ago in England and all that. But what's on your mind today?

Mark Cameron: Have you ever noticed that no matter what your spouse does, you might find something wrong with it? Or vice versa, they find something wrong with something that you're doing. Maybe one of you is unloading the dishwasher, and instead of appreciating the effort, the other person notices the ones that weren't put away correctly. Or one of you plans a date night, and instead of enjoying it, the other one thinks about the things that weren't thought about.

When this becomes our default way of seeing our spouse, relationship researcher Dr. John Gottman calls this negative sentiment override. Negative sentiment override happens when relational hurt becomes so dominant that it just starts to color all of our interactions with our spouse. This usually happens due to a lack of relational repair because when conflict goes unresolved, the hurt from the last conflict just reinforces all the hurt in the next conflict.

And what happens with negative sentiment override is that instead of assuming the best about your spouse, you just start to assume the worst. Even neutral actions are then interpreted negatively. Kind gestures are then dismissed, and even sincere apologies or efforts at repair can be overlooked.

Every couple who is stuck has a core conflict pattern, meaning that their conflict plays out in a very predictable way. And that's due to our attachment styles. Avoiders dismiss or flee. Pleasers and victims freeze or appease. And controllers and vacillators, they either pursue or they fight. If you put any two of these combinations together, that creates the core pattern because each of them reacts in that certain way and conflict will follow that style.

Rather than recognizing it's the pattern that's damaging the relationship, partners often assume it's the other person who's the problem. And the turning point comes in a couple's relationship when couples stop blaming one another and they start seeing the cycle as the real problem. So instead of blaming one another, you could start saying something like, "We're caught in our core pattern again. This is stealing our time from connecting with one another." That simple shift will change everything because it positions you to be standing side by side against the core pattern instead of opposing one another and fighting one another.

Dr. Gottman's research also found out something else that's pretty remarkable, and that was that healthy, thriving couples maintain about a five-to-one ratio of positive to negative interactions, even during conflicts. In other words, every criticism, complaint, or negative moment gets outweighed by multiple expressions of kindness, appreciation, validation, empathy, or just even emotional presence.

So if you think about this ratio, that means if you make at least one negative comment a day, which a lot of people do, you need to balance that with 35 positive comments each week. And that reminds me of the heart of God. Romans 2:4 tells us that it's God's kindness that is intended to lead us to repentance. So one thing I often encourage couples to do is just to pray every night, even if that prayer is just, "Lord, help us see one another through each other's eyes and give us grace for one another." Because you can learn to pray together and still be on the same team even when you disagree. And I often tell people to set an alarm because that will ensure you won't forget. My wife and my alarm is 9:30 p.m. every night.

Brian Perez: Just make sure the prayer isn't, "Dear God, thank you for my spouse. I forgive them for that thing that they did earlier when blah blah blah blah blah," and then it just turns into another conflict disguised as a prayer. But if that happened, you can call us here at New Life LIVE. We'll be back with your calls.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

Be sure to tune in this coming Monday here on New Life LIVE. We've got a special show where Dr. Lee Warren will be joining us. He's a neurosurgeon, Iraq War veteran, and author of the book, The Life-Changing Art of Self-Brain Surgery. You might be thinking, "Self-brain surgery? I freak out trying to take a splinter out of my finger. What's this self-brain surgery all about?" Well, tune in and find out. We're going to talk about how thoughts can direct structural changes in the brain, and our phone lines will be open. That's this coming Monday with our guest, Dr. Lee Warren. Let's go to the phones now and we'll begin with Esther in Los Angeles, who is watching us on YouTube. Hey there, Esther. Welcome to New Life LIVE.

Esther: Hello, people of God. How are you guys doing today?

Brian Perez: Doing well, thanks. How are you?

Esther: Doing good, praise the Lord. I did have a question if you guys don't mind.

Brian Perez: Please, go ahead. That's why we're here.

Esther: All right, so this is what I was thinking about today. As I was doing my stuff because I'm going to say something, I do run my business from my house. So that being said, being a woman entrepreneur and having the privilege and honor to serve others in the community and in the larger, well, actually since it's an online business, in the US. I've never had any outside the US, so it's not international, any orders yet.

But my question is this. As being a female entrepreneur, and my dad also owned a business growing up so maybe it comes in my bloodstream. But that being said, how can I represent Christ in my business? And what does that look like for a woman like Lydia in the Bible, a seller of purple in Acts 16? Like me and Lydia are the same kind of the same anointing. But at the same time, I have to represent Christ, honor my dad's legacy in already being an immigrant running a first-generation business in this country. So you could see that what he did in his life, even though his business wasn't Kingdom-minded, I could tell you what it was.

But at the same time, we always have to remember, or in my business, I always put an evangelism tool in each order so that they could get the Gospel. And that's step 10 of anybody that wants to work for me. Step 10 is evangelize the customer. So that's very important. We put a tract in every order. And it's a clothing business.

So that being said, I do believe I have competition in this field of clothing because look at Giorgio Armani. Look at all these people. These are male designers. And being a female designer, it's very interesting to see what God wants to do in the fashion industry. Because I don't know what God wants to do in the fashion industry because I didn't know I was called into fashion until I ran a clothing store from my house.

Brian Perez: And Esther, have you encountered situations where perhaps you had to choose between your ethics and doing business, or what is it that brought this question up?

Esther: Well, this question, like why God called me into business and fashion for such a time as this, is a very good question because that's what I'm asking. I don't know why the Lord called me into fashion. Is it because I live in LA? Is it because God wanted me to show widows and orphans to have beautiful clothes and fund my ministry and whatever God wants to do to promote the Gospel of Jesus Christ through clothing? But how does that? I can't see everything that God is doing in my life because I would be sitting here all day thanking Him for everything that He's doing. Each breath belongs to Him. But at the same time, these people don't know Christ in the fashion world. They're wearing clothes that is super revealing, super causing men to fall, maybe women to fall. That's not the Lord.

Brian Perez: So Esther, it sounds like you think about God frequently and you try to make sure you live out your spirituality in all areas of life. What makes you doubt that you're representing Him well as a female entrepreneur?

Esther: You know what? I'm going to say it. But I did have over maybe 40 closet partners and business partners. And one of the girls, she was like, "I'm going to need my bags back." And I'm like, "Did she follow me on IG and saw my every post was about Jesus?" And she was like, "I don't want to work with a Christian." But then again, I was following her on IG and what I found out is that she's a mom. So I'm like, obviously since she's a mom, she has some sort of idea of who God is. So at the same time, I don't want to judge anyone and make a partnership from the enemy just for a $5,000, $10,000, $20,000, $2 million business.

Brian Perez: You don't want to allow yourself to be vulnerable to choose wealth and success and fame over Christ. I've got to tell you, I already think you're analyzing yourself very well, so I don't have a lot more to add to what you're already doing. But I would say some of the best advice I got as I opened up my own business was to make God the CEO of my business. To turn it over to Him and say, "Lord, You do with this whatever You will, whether You bless me, whether You close my business."

And even to ask on a daily basis, "Okay, I get to be in charge of my time. I don't have another boss. But God, I'm going to let You be my boss. What do You want me to do today? And God, I give You permission. Adjust, change, delete my schedule, whatever You want to place on my schedule. I'm going to try to trust You in that and give this over to You." And it already sounds like you have that mindset, so I would just check that you're letting Him be the boss instead of you being the boss. Mark?

Mark Cameron: I'm going to take a mental health lens to this, Esther. It sounds like you have a lot of anxiety. You have a lot of worry about different things. Of course, running a business, there are a lot of things up in the air about how successful that can be. But I'm also hearing a lot of anxiety and worry about would your dad be proud of you, what other people are thinking about you. Where do you think that comes from? If you consider your history, where do you think that anxiousness comes from for you?

Esther: I do understand what you mean, and I do appreciate your comments and your caring concern and I will answer that question. Yes. So I do believe that this anxieties of life, I don't want them to choke the Word in my life because the Bible says don't let the anxieties of this life choke the Word that is growing in you. Just be the good soil.

But at the same time, yes, I do see that due to my cultural upbringing, I do believe that my grandma wanted me to be a doctor. My dad wanted me to be a doctor. Everybody wanted me to be a doctor. And that being said, yes, this fashion industry, why am I like that's why my heart is for healing. My heart is for nursing. My heart is still taking care of children. That's my heart. So why the Lord called me to the fashion industry at such a time as this could be opening my eyes to see how? I know this sounds like but God is in everything, so I'm going to say it so if you guys have any opinion, please do tell me. But how is fashion related to the medical field? Anybody? Or how is fashion related to these poor children?

Mark Cameron: So here's what I would guide Esther. I think there's a lot of anxiety underneath and I think that's really worth exploring because I can hear this tension between what you want to do and what others expected of you. And we have a network of counselors. Let us put you in touch with someone because I don't think this is going to be an easy answer question for you. I think this is going to be an exploration that probably takes place over several months for you. And so let us put you in touch with a counselor who specializes in anxiety, and if you're willing, I think that would be a really good growth journey for you.

Brian Perez: And Esther, maybe you've heard the story of a businessman who made fabulous pizza, but his heart was for the mission field. And so he had other people put in charge of his business and he went off to Africa to serve. He was no good at it at all. And he wondered, "Lord, here I am. I'm willing. I even have the money to be able to do this." And as he struggled with God in what he should be doing with his time, he realized, "I'm actually supposed to go back and make really great pizza and fund other people who are good at being missionaries because I'm not good at being a missionary, apparently."

I don't know what God has in store for you, but please be encouraged that if you keep submitting your will and your life to Him, He will lead you in the right direction. So maybe it's volunteering with children. Maybe it's volunteering with learning some skills to be able to serve your neighborhood, and you do that because the fashion business funds your work to be able to give more time to people in your community.

Love that. Esther, thank you for calling us today here on New Life LIVE. And now let's go to Carson in Chattanooga. Carson listens to us on Sirius XM channel 131. Welcome, Carson, to New Life LIVE. You're on with Dr. Alice Benton and Mark Cameron.

Carson: Hi, guys. Thanks for having me. I have three daughters, the youngest one is almost 17 years old. She lives with her mother. I'm divorced from the mother. And yesterday, she sent me an email and told me she believes that she's non-binary. So I need advice on how to respond to her in love and truth. So to affirm that God created her a female, but not feeling her rejected or ignored in what she's going through. She already gave me her new name that she wants to be called going forward. So that's the first step. Do I acknowledge this new name? I tend to say yes because that name is not given by God but by people, so I think that is acceptable. But the other details, how do I respond to speak the truth but keep the dialogue open?

Brian Perez: So you got this email yesterday and you haven't responded. You're just kind of waiting.

Carson: No, I needed some advice first. I have my thoughts but wanted to hear something from you guys.

Brian Perez: For sure. Mark?

Mark Cameron: Yeah, I'm glad you called in, Carson, before you responded so that you can make sure that you're doing this in a very thoughtful way. I appreciate that. Now, 17 years old, around that age, kids are still figuring out their identities. And so, of course, this is a concern for you, but I don't think it's necessarily that this is going to stick forever.

But I do appreciate that you don't want to affirm her in that she's non-binary. I think what I would do is I would invite her to have a conversation and sit down with her face to face. And then I would just have her do most of the sharing. I would ask thoughtful questions about what she means when she says that she's non-binary, and what made her come to this decision, and what does that mean for her? And how does she think that that may impact her relationship with you? And how will that change things with you?

And so I would start there. That gives you space to be able to hear where some of these influences are coming from and gives you also an opportunity to be able to formulate your opinion with her. It sounds like she knows that you are a Christian. Is that correct?

Carson: Absolutely. And I was with her when she was baptized as a nine-year-old. So she definitely has a strong foundation. But because of the whole divorce and separation situation, she's definitely messed up. And I need to add, because of a heavy case of parental alienation, the only way I can be in touch with her is through email. So I cannot do something superficial. If I respond, it has to be substantial.

Mark Cameron: Well, she's 17 right now. So in less than a year, she's going to be able to make a decision to be able to speak directly with you because she will be legally an adult. So I think you can still have this dialogue. While it will be a little bit more complicated and while it will be a little bit more delayed, I don't think you necessarily need to throw all of your opinions into one email. And I would hesitate about against doing that. I would open a dialogue and see if you can get emails going back and forth where you start to ask these questions. And of course, you can tell her your opinion as a Christian and affirm her in her womanhood. But I don't think that stops you loving her any differently. And I think if you can remain that consistent figure in her life and get to the point where you can meet with her face to face, I think that probably would be the best way to go about it.

Brian Perez: Carson, don't send that email yet because we still have to hear from Dr. Alice Benton. We'll do that when we come back from the break. Thank you so much for calling in, Carson. And yeah, if you're in a similar situation where you're about to respond to someone in this kind of a thing, yeah, maybe call us first. We'll be right back.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

We are back on New Life LIVE. We were speaking to Carson just a moment ago. And Tom, we'll get to you in just a moment, so don't hang up. But Dr. Alice, what other advice would you give to Carson?

Alice Benton: Carson, I wonder how your heart is doing. And I think you're probably pretty afraid and you've probably been worried for quite some time as your ex-wife has perhaps been alienating the kids from you. And so of course you want to quickly share your faith with your daughter to save her from perhaps unnecessary suffering.

Pouncing and correcting out of fear is the normal parental response, but it will likely shut your daughter down if you take that tact. And so I agree with Mark that having a posture of prolonged curiosity and a lot longer than you're going to be comfortable with. Everyone I've had the honor to speak with who questions their sexual identity, at first I can think, "What are you doing? How could you be choosing that?"

And if I wait and listen long enough, I have always gotten to the point of being able to say, "No wonder. No wonder that you have found this to be the safest way to show up in your world." That's not always the case for everyone I know, but there is a story of pain because of which your daughter is trying to figure out how to survive that pain. And in my experience, experimenting with sexual identity and gender identity is usually wrapped up in trying to figure out how to survive pain.

So I hope you'll listen long enough to get to the "no wonder this is what you're choosing right now." I hope you'll be open and even bring up, "Hey, how you doing about the divorce? I know it's been so hard on you. You don't hear from me as much. We don't have much contact. How are you doing with that?" Keep some of the focus on your part in what has transpired within this family. I'd be really cautious not to point fingers at your ex-wife, even though you'd probably be justified in doing so, but making sure you either don't speak of her or speak well of her if humanly possible.

This kind of situation, you really have to take a long-term approach. And so I want you to focus on building up your relationship with her. And I'm going to praise something about what you've apparently already done. She felt safe enough to tell you. That means there is some foundation there. Now, sometimes kids do tell us and they use it as a weapon, and so it might feel like she's just jabbing at you with this information. But I think she might feel safe enough to tell you.

That new name, the people in that community hold that new name as very sacred, and deciding with whom they will share it, they're usually very choosy because they are so likely to suffer rejection. I think there are situations when it might be good not to call someone by their new chosen name, but whenever I have gotten the opportunity to be close with someone who's trying to figure themselves out like this, I've prayed about it. I've asked God what to do. And I have found that using their new name allows me to be in relationship with them even if I hold a separate opinion, a contrary opinion to how they're choosing to live their life. And then what I do is I pray and wait to figure out, God, when do You want me to share my contrary opinion? And it is usually a lot later than I would have wanted to wait out of my own fear and my concern for them. I hope that advice is helpful to you. Mark, anything else?

Mark Cameron: Yeah, I think that's really good. I mean, often times we want to just do a belief data dump and we just want to tell them like, this is wrong, this is what we believe. And then every follow-up conversation becomes about pointing back to the belief data dump. And no one has ever, I don't believe, been successfully lectured into doing something willingly. And as you're saying, validating somebody's feelings and reasons and even calling them by a new chosen name doesn't necessarily mean that you are agreeing with them and it doesn't mean that you're reinforcing what they're doing. It just means that you're becoming safe to that person because you want to remain an influence in their life, especially as a parent, so that when you have that time, you can share your opinion and they will receive it. And again, it's something that's going to be done over a longer period of time, too. It doesn't mean, again, that you just wait a long time and then you do the belief data dump. It just means that as you're having these conversations, you insert different things. And I find the best way to do that is through asking questions. We listen more to ourselves than we do to anyone else. If we convince ourselves of something, even if there's evidence contrary to it, we're going to go with what we've convinced ourselves of. And so if we can ask thoughtful questions, especially to our kids, and get them to think about things in a different way and challenge their beliefs through having them essentially challenge their beliefs by asking these questions, that I think has a far likelier is a far likelier method of getting somebody to see something differently.

Alice Benton: And it's important that the questions are very gentle and non-accusatory because we can really weaponize a question. Oh, there was one other thing I wanted to say and now it's slipped my mind. Carson, if you want to send me your email before you send it to your daughter, I would be glad to give you feedback about that.

Brian Perez: Wow. Okay, very good. So leave your email address with our call screener and we will give that to Alice. But thank you so much for calling in today, Carson, here on New Life LIVE. There's also a couple of articles that I want to let you know about at NewLife.com. One is called How to Talk to Teens, another one, Loving Your Teen Even When It's Hard. You can find those at NewLife.com. We'll put links to them in the show notes there if you're watching us online. We will be right back. Got to take a quick break here on New Life LIVE. In fact, Tom, you will be up next. Let me lock in Tom now so that we don't lose him. Tom, you there? I think he's there. Maybe it's just the music that's overpowering, I don't know, but Tom, stay on the phone. There you are! All right, Tom, going to take a quick break and then we'll come right back to you. All right, man?

Tom: Yes.

Brian Perez: All right, this is New Life LIVE. I'm Brian Perez here with Dr. Alice Benton and Mark Cameron and we want to talk to you, too, so we hope you can call in here at New Life LIVE.

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To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

All right, let's go to Tom in Melbourne, Pennsylvania, listening to us on NewLife.com. Hey there, Tom. Where is Melbourne exactly? Roughly.

Tom: It's about 45 minutes from Philadelphia.

Brian Perez: Oh, okay. Got it. All right, so how can we help you today here on New Life LIVE?

Tom: I'd like to know what I should do. I've been in prayer sometime. I've been seeing this lady that we're both saved. She's been saved longer than me. And she lost her husband years ago, about seven years ago. And I met her at my church and we really get along really, really well. And we go to Bible study together and we spend a lot of nice time together. And she has a son that has some illness and he lives with her and she's providing for him. And I'd like to be married to her, but it seems like the problem she has is she's caring for him and she said we just can be friends and just leave things as they are. And I just want to know what I should do because it's breaking my heart.

Mark Cameron: What's breaking your heart, Tom? Her taking care of her son or her not wanting to be with you?

Tom: No, no, I'm all for that. I'm all for that. It's just that I just I'm just worried that I'm going to lose her.

Mark Cameron: In what way? That she'll find someone else?

Tom: In just in every way. I mean, I think if it comes push comes to shove, she's going to take him over me because that's her son and I'm only her friend. And if that's the case, I've been praying to God every day to give me guidance and that's what I should do. I don't want to forsake her and start seeing someone else because because of how much love I have for her.

Brian Perez: And do you think you could not tolerate just being friends? It's either a romantic relationship moving to marriage or you'd need to close the relationship?

Tom: Well, we don't we don't have any any romance at all. I have to ask for a hug because she's so standoffish because a friend of hers told her that we shouldn't hug or we shouldn't kiss or anything like that. It's not what Jesus wants. So she's abiding by that, and that hurt my feelings, too. I wasn't doing anything wrong that I thought was wrong in God's eyes. Maybe it was that we kissed, but it wasn't it was like a friendly kiss, it wasn't anything romantic, that's for sure.

Brian Perez: And because she does not want it to turn into a romantic relationship, which you want, do you think you cannot and should not just be friends with her?

Tom: I don't know what to do. I sometimes I think I should just let God decide because He put us together and and we enjoy each other's company so much. She's so uninhibited. She's always poking fun at me. We play simple things, simple games and stuff. But she's always touching me and poking at me and and saying funny things and we just get along so well and we match up so perfectly in so many things. It's just incredible. I think He put me in her life at this time for me and for her and I to be together. I really do.

Mark Cameron: That does sound confusing, Tom, because it sounds like she's giving certain signals to you by spending time and touching your arm and laughing with you and things like that. It sounds like it's a little bit beyond friends. There's some flirting going on here. I don't I think God in in this situation, I think God allows us to decide. He gives us free will. God allows us to he allows us to choose who we want to marry. He doesn't impose that upon us. Now, it is a little bit of a confusing relationship. How old are you guys, can I ask that?

Tom: Yes, I'm in my early 70s and she's a year older than me.

Mark Cameron: Okay. And I do know this that when people get into about their 70s and their 80s, relationships become heavily about companionship. And so it sounds like she's a she's a good life companion for you. But but you're looking for something a little bit more than that.

Tom: Yes, I am. I love being married. I was married for a long time. And I had an issue with my wife, she betrayed me, but that's another story. But I stayed with her, I didn't throw her away. And she did suffer for it, and that's damaged me, too.

Mark Cameron: Yeah. And I wonder if you have a fear of abandonment or a fear of rejection, which is

Tom: I think I do. I think I do.

Mark Cameron: Where do you think that comes from? Is that from your previous relationship or does it go beyond that? Is there a deeper history behind that?

Tom: No, that's just this is just from the previous relationship. It hurt me so deeply. And Jesus did tell me prior to going forward with her that she wasn't what I thought she was. And we knew each other from when we were young, and I didn't listen to God. And He gave me three signs, and I should have listened to them and I went against what other people told me not to do. And I paid a terrible price for it. I'm still paying it.

Mark Cameron: I'm sorry to hear that. I think one of the best things that we can do is to learn to do our own growth work. It sounds like there's a lot to unpack with that previous relationship. And I wonder as you start to unpack that with a wise counselor, if there'll be roots to your history from your childhood for how expectations and emotional triggers and wounds that you took into that marriage too with you. And I think if you learn to heal those places inside of yourself, then it will be easier to let go of this relationship if she doesn't want to move forward with you because you'll be able to heal some of that fear of abandonment and fear of rejection.

Tom: Well, one thing she did tell me, it's one thing she did tell me after we were together for four and a half months, we were at a place and some lady said, "You two are so cute together holding hands and stuff." She said she said in front of that lady that "I love him." And I just wanted to be friends. I never expected that. And she said it twice. Now when I confronted her with that, she denied it vehemently and said we're only going to be friends and wrote me a letter. So I don't know what's going on with her. I mean, that really I was happy just being friends, and then it changed everything and threw it on its head. So now I don't know what's going on with her. I mean, I don't know what to do.

Mark Cameron: It's very confusing. But what you may have to do here, Tom, and this is the hard part, is you may have to distance from her. Because if you have expectations of greater levels of intimacy and she doesn't want to do that but then she's giving mixed signals, it's hard to spend time right, it's hard to spend time with somebody and not bond with them, especially if you've got a great attraction to them to not then want to long for them.

Tom: Yeah, that's what she does with me. I mean, she's always calling me and say, "What are you doing? Why don't we get together and do this or that?" So I think she is invested in it quite deeply for her, and I think I am too. So I'm just going to let God take its course and see what He figures out for us because I just I'm just not ready to pursue anybody else and I don't think she is either. So I just hope that she's going to see what He guides me to and gives me the wisdom to make my decision.

Alice Benton: Tom, I hear some patterns in her behavior. I think that she struggles with avoidance, denial, and possibly outright lying. And I'm a liar in recovery myself, so I can relate to her in that. And if she is not even willing to admit that she said "I love him" in front of you, you were there and she's denying it. There are some character issues on her part that I don't understand either. That's mysterious. I wonder why she did that. I usually lie in order to people-please. I don't want anybody to be bothered with me.

And perhaps she does love you, but she's realized she's too caught up with her son, she doesn't feel like she can bring a romantic relationship into that relationship for caring with her son, which is also confusing to me. But she gives her whole life to her family all the time. They're always tugging at her. And I know my friends have said, "You know, you're so giving and you're so good to everybody, and you put everybody first." And they said, "So we can see that she's, you know, that she we don't think she loves you as much as you do, but we're not going to go against that because we can see that how she is with you sometimes."

So I don't know. I'm just going to see what God has. The love she's able to give you is limited. And it's confusing to say, "I love him," to hold your hand and to touch you a lot. That all speaks to me as much more than friendship. So she's confused herself and she's sending off signals that are adding to your confusion. So I'd have you think about this. Can your heart tolerate friendship? You sound like you're in turmoil and maybe even a little agony. I don't know if that's too strong of a word. But if you continue in this level of questioning and wondering and rolling it over in your head, then I would say your heart may not be able to tolerate the level of love that she's able to give you. So having a really direct conversation with her at some point about "What is it that we want out of this? Are you solid on we can only be friends and that's it and nothing else ever?" And I might even have a therapy session so that a counselor could help draw out of both of you what it is that you want, pointing out these confusions and helping you to come to a conclusion. But she has told you and I think you should take her at her word right now: "I only want friendship with you." So you get to decide, Tom, can you tolerate that?

Tom: Yes, I've I've had an opportunity to see another lady, but I stopped because I felt so guilty about it. So that's that's gone, that's not going to come back. I know that for sure.

Mark Cameron: Well, and that's where, Tom, I think doing some of this deep personal growth work can help you grow in that area to be able to let go of this friendship or expectations for a greater relationship if it's not going to happen because you're just going to be stuck in longing and you'll be in this turmoil as Alice is saying. And that's not healthy for you.

Tom: No, it's not because I've I've had so much sorrow in this relationship that it just gives me such pain. But thank you. I appreciate it.

Brian Perez: Thanks for calling. Yeah. All right, everybody watching and listening, pray for Tom that he will have wisdom in how to continue pursuing this relationship and maybe that this his friend will soften her heart and that she'll stop lying and everything else. Yeah. We'll be back.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

Yes, back to New Life LIVE. Thanks so much for joining us today, whether you're watching us online or listening on the radio or on a podcast. Want to let you know about a couple of, no, actually three, not literally a couple, a couple and a half, three New Life courses are beginning the week of August 10th. They are live, online, faith-based experiences that tackle issues like shame, codependency, food issues, and more with biblical truth and practical tools.

They're led by licensed Christian counselors and coaches. They're small group courses that give you teaching, interaction, and a clear next step toward emotional and spiritual freedom. You can explore the courses. They are once a week for 12 weeks beginning the week of November 10th. Find out more about them at NewLife.com or by calling us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE. You will definitely benefit from taking one of these courses. If you've taken one of the courses in the past and now now's your chance to take another. Again, the details at NewLife.com or by calling us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE.

And everything we do here at New Life is because of your generous financial support and your prayers as well. We so we are so encouraged when we hear that you guys are praying for us. And we also encourage you to pray for the people who call in to the show and they express their deepest sorrow and confusion and disappointment, and we are here to guide them. And we ask that you continue to pray for them as well.

But if you can support us financially, you can do that online at NewLife.com or by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE or text NLM as in New Life Ministries to 28950. Thank you so much for whatever it is that you can do to support us financially. We've got a webinar coming up, too. Dr. Alice Benton is hosting it. It's on grief. Want to tell us a little bit about that, Alice?

Alice Benton: Of course, grief touches everyone's life eventually. But if you enter into what's called prolonged or complicated grief, you can feel imbalanced, paralyzed, and even frozen in the grief process. And the timing of grief is individual. Everyone's life is can be turned upside down through the initial period of grief.

But what we are concerned about is when you feel like you cannot process through the grief and still continue to live your life. And so what we'll be teaching in the seminar are things like how to allow yourself to be angry, to be upset, to let tears fall. It's actually a skill to be able to do that, and it's counter-cultural. We're supposed to be strong and tough and just get things get through it.

When people ask how you are, the correct answer is, "I'm fine." And so our culture is set up to actually stop the grieving process, to short-circuit it. And what you'll learn in the seminar is how to move through it in a way that helps you to access grace, to get to acceptance, to find a new meaning in your life through whatever loss you have been through, and to re-establish a new purpose. And that's the desire that God has for us.

It's kind of like in our phone call with Tom just now. There are ways that we can get to a healthy detachment from the losses that help us to know they're there, we don't deny them, we're able to process that sorrow and anger I mentioned before, but we're also able to continue on with our life while accessing some serenity and some joy. Much easier said than done, but we will help you get closer to it.

Brian Perez: That's happening on July 16th. So text the word webinar to 28950 and we'll text you back a registration link as well as a tip sheet on grief. So again, that's two text messages to send us today. One is webinar. The other one is NLM. Webinar is to find out more information about the webinar happening July 16th, and then NLM is to send us a financial donation. And the number to text to is 28950. So thanks again and we'll see you there on the 16th. But going back to our previous call with Tom and how grief and everything else is that underlying, he may not even notice it. But what would you say about that?

Mark Cameron: Grief is so complex because of these varying different stages. Thankfully, they've been identified as denial, bargaining, sadness, anger, before we eventually get to acceptance. And so I think for Tom, I think Tom was in a bargaining stage of grief. He was wanting to to continue on for the hope of maybe she will be there for him, maybe she'll change her mind, when she was giving him this clear message of "I just want to be friends." Well, I say clear message even though it sounds like there were a lot of mixed signals going on, but she was saying "I just want to be friends. I don't want to go any further."

And this is why grief is so hard because when we're in grief, we just want to get out of it. And when we share grief with other people, it's hard for them to come into our grief with us and they often just want to move us out of it very, very quickly. But we have to go through the stages of grief to really be able to get to the other side. You can't just jump out of it. You have to move through them. And so if somebody in your life is going through grief, I encourage you to try and sit in that discomfort with them. It's really difficult when somebody is in one of these stages, especially a sad stage. And what really they need from you is just presence most of the time. Just comfort, just presence, just some empathy with what's happening.

And typically if you do that long enough with somebody, they'll reach the other side. But often times we do need and that's why grief groups are so helpful, because you you are in in a community, a mini community with other people who are going through some of the same things and so they can validate what's happening with you, they can sit with you, they can tolerate the the pain and the longing and the sadness and the anger because they're going through it themselves.

Alice Benton: I hit a pocket of unexpected grief over this weekend. And I don't cry very frequently or easily, but I was talking with my husband about a big disappointment where I thought God was going to show up in my life in a particular way and He didn't. And as I was talking, I said to my husband, "Oh, I think I'm going to cry about this." Because I have learned that rather than when I have that crying sensation, I used to try to shut it down. "I don't want to cry, I don't want to lose control, I don't want the puffy eyes and the runny nose, I want to just be tough and move on."

But I value my tears, especially because they don't come frequently. I know it's a stress relief. And if I warn the people around me, "I'm going to cry. Would you just listen? Would you just be here with me? And please don't try to change my mind too quickly." Because our loved ones want to say, "It's okay! You don't have to be disappointed about that anymore. Remember all the good things that God did?" That is true and there's a time for that. But when the grief is actually coming up, the most helpful thing is, "Tell me more. Wow, that must be tough. I can see your tears. You can keep crying with me." Because that helps us to release what was locked inside and through that grief process, we can get back to a point of serenity again. But it's by allowing the grief, not short-circuiting it.

Brian Perez: Grief is like being on a freeway and you're with a friend who knows the area and says, "Hey, we're stuck in traffic here. Why don't you just get off here and we'll," because they think that they know a better, quicker, faster way to get to the place where we're not sitting in traffic anymore. So it's kind of the same thing with grief, would you say?

Alice Benton: Don't get off that highway too quickly.

Brian Perez: Yeah, just stay with it. Stay with it. So sign up for this webinar by texting the word webinar to 28950. And something else that we offer here at New Life, we can help you find a Life Recovery group. If you are ready for real recovery and not just the willpower, "I think I can, I think I can." No, no, you need real recovery. We have over 735 recovery groups. That is no exaggeration. We have counted them all. And they offer Christ-centered 12-step community to help you break free and grow. You can find a group meeting in person or if you want to do one online, you can do that too at NewLife.com or call us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE and we'll show you the process and we'll help you find one that you can connect with.

But God bless you guys. Thank you so much for joining us today on New Life LIVE. Have a great weekend, 4th of July weekend. We'll see you at church on Sunday and then we'll talk to you again here on Monday. For Dr. Alice Benton and Mark Cameron, I'm Brian Perez. God bless you guys and we'll talk to you next time here on New Life LIVE.

Guest (Male): Thank you so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember, we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to newlife.com to find out more information. And thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholness and healing, and we're so glad that you're here.