New Life LIVE

Guest (Male): Welcome to the New Life Live podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's Word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: Hey guys, what's up? Brian Perez here on New Life Live, and I'm joined by Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist JJ West, who's also the presenter at our Every Man's Battle and Intimacy in Marriage intensives. In the studio, Clinical Psychologist Dr. Jill Hubbard. It's great to have you guys here on today's episode. We're going to go to the phones in a little bit and talk to Steve and Peggy, but Dr. Jill, what's on your mind to start us off?

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Well, hi guys. Good to be with you again. Over the weekend, I went to a baby shower. I haven't been to one in a while, and I actually learned something new. When it's a second baby, they call it a sprinkle. It's not a full shower; it's a sprinkle, in case you needed to be updated on that.

They were asking us to give some advice to the mom-to-be with now siblings and how to get along. A lot of us were of grandma age. I'm not a grandma yet; I'm still waiting and hopefully someday soon. I'm trying to think back to 30 years ago because my oldest will be turning 30 this year. When I was pregnant, I did a whole workshop before having a child on attachment and attunement because that was at the forefront. It still is, but that was really coming onto the scene back then and how important that is to be connected and attuned to your baby.

To hear these moms now 30 years later talking, as well as young people, and how the verbage is changing a little bit, it's now about nervous system regulation, which is similar to attachment and attunement because certainly it does those things. But we are really thinking more about how we create calm on young developing nervous systems.

Children, babies, and infants learn from their primary caretakers. We've known that for a long time. So the idea of co-regulation, which is that as we are calm and create an environment that is safe for them, they learn how to regulate themselves and how to soothe themselves. But they just don't come into the world knowing how to do that.

I kind of also correlate all of us. None of us really know how to regulate ourselves, and we co-regulate as Christians with the Lord. God helps us to regulate ourselves when we breathe Him in and ask for His help in that. As babies breathe in their mothers, the skin-to-skin contact and the rocking—I'm even rocking as I'm talking about this—toddlers, little kids, and babies need that eyeball-to-eyeball contact.

As kids get a little bit older, that contact is just interest in them, not about reprimanding them or correcting them. You really have to connect. On this show, we always talk about connecting before you correct, and that should start from day one in life and modeling what you want more of, not giving the attention just to the bad behavior, but really modeling how we comfort another when they've been hurt. Really important stuff.

JJ West: That's great stuff, Jill. I was just resonating with everything that you said. It's so important for all of us, whether we are dealing with small children or adult relationships. All of those are key points to follow.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Well, and how important grandparents are. Grandparents really can fill the gap for busy working parents.

Brian Perez: We'll be back here on New Life Live.

Guest (Male): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: Here at New Life, we constantly remind you that if you care for other people, if you're in a caregiver position, you need to stay equipped and encouraged. It is essential. One opportunity for that is happening this fall. It's called the Hope Together Conference. It's in the Dallas area, and it's three days of biblically-based training and practical tools for counselors, coaches, pastors, and lay leaders.

You can learn more about the conference at hopetogether.com. As a New Life listener and viewer, you have a special discount available when you register. Use the code NLM20. NLM as in New Life Ministries and 20 as in a 20 percent discount on general conference registration. There's early bird pricing as well that ends on July 31st, so don't wait. Visit hopetogether.com to get all the details. Again, that promo code is NLM20.

Steve in Grand Island, Nebraska, thank you so much for calling in today to New Life Live, and thanks for listening to the New Life Live podcast. How can we help you?

Steve: My question relates to how you think through an event that happened when I was 18 months old. When I hear the stories, it makes me feel not traumatized, but just not very comfortable, but I have no memory of it. The story is that when I was 18 months old, my younger sibling was born and I went and stayed with my grandparents. Probably to begin with, it was just for a couple of days, but it ended up being six, eight, ten weeks. I'm not sure just how long.

When I heard that story as a child and a couple of different times, it just didn't feel quite right. Then I've got four children and as each of those got to be 18 months old, that just came back to me. Again, I don't think it's really that traumatic to me, but it was just like, "Man, I'd never do that. I wouldn't ever just have my kids go away." My question is, when you're that young, you don't have memories of it, but something about it just doesn't feel quite right. Help me know a little bit how I could think through that and if it's something I should just forget about or whether it's something I should pursue a little more.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Well, Steve, while you may not have verbal memory of it or vivid pictures, prior to being verbal, we store everything in our body. We do have all of our memories and it's stored kind of like muscle memory. It's stored in our body. But I think there's a couple of things. One, I'm wondering, had you not heard the story, would you have the same reaction? Maybe, maybe not.

But certainly, the story in telling the story to you, how old were you when you heard the story?

Steve: Probably the first time when I was younger, probably six or eight years old, and then another time probably when I was 12 or 14 years old. It just came up in a family discussion.

Steve: These were grandparents that lived close, and I saw them all the time. I had a wonderful relationship with them until they passed away, so it's not like it was a dramatic thing. When it was told, it was told very casually like, "Yeah, this is just what happened." It wasn't like it was anything other than just what happened.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Right. Back then, a lot of people did things like that in earlier generations, which we know more now. But there's also a psychologist, Gabor Maté. He's not necessarily a Christian, but he talks about when he got sent away at six weeks old because of war and he had to be separated from his mother.

He talks about feelings of abandonment, even though it was to protect him. Even though it was a good thing, he talks about having those feelings of abandonment. Your parents were handling a younger one, and they gave you to loving grandparents, but at the same time, the fact that it doesn't sit right with you, I think as a little person, you're with your primary caregivers and then suddenly you're not. I think that's very confusing.

The fact that you are aware that that's nothing you would ever do with your own kids—did your parents mean you harm? No. Did they feel it was necessary? I guess so. But I think the fact that you are uncomfortable with it is okay. Trying to remember it, you're only going to remember it by the sense of feeling a little bit not okay. You're not going to be able to go back and have actual memories that young, but I think it's good to look at that and to have to grieve it, that okay, that may have caused me some confusion when I was young. Do some writing about it, some journaling about it and how that feels, and that because of that experience, you chose to do it very differently with your kids.

JJ West: What Jill is describing is the implicit versus explicit memory system. All of us have an implicit memory system and an explicit. The explicit memory system really doesn't develop until around the age of four, five, or six. It's different for everybody, but right around the age of five is where our explicit memory system kicks in.

That's a part of our brain that really doesn't develop until that age, and so we don't have those concrete memories of what life was like. We don't remember at three years old running through the house. That's not a concrete memory. We might have stories that are told to us, and so we have some memory of it that way. We might have seen pictures or videos, but we don't have the explicit memory of what it was like in that moment at that age.

But we do have what Jill described, which is this implicit memory system. What it felt like is stored in our body and that stays with us. The fact that it just doesn't feel right when it was talked about, like something isn't quite right about that. It doesn't mean that something traumatic happened to you. It doesn't mean that you were abused by your grandparents or left on the side of the road or something like that. It just didn't feel right because you were used to your parents being your primary caregivers, being the ones that were close by. That felt safe, that felt nurturing, that felt good to you. To have that disrupted, even if they tried to explain it to you at 18 months old—how are they going to do much explaining to an 18-month-old?—it still wouldn't have changed the way that it felt.

That's the important thing, is to talk about how it felt and how it even feels now to you when you think about that. Just like Jill said, it's not going on a witch hunt. It's not trying to blame mom and dad, "How could you? I can't believe you did this." But simply to recognize that it had an impact on the way you view relationships. Steve, how and what's your relationship like with the sibling that came after you?

Steve: Oh, okay. I mean, he was and still is a very strong-willed person and made things a little bit challenging that way. Maybe that impacted some of it, I don't know. We talk on the phone regularly and get along well.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Okay, because sometimes it can feel like maybe because you were sent away because of a younger one and then that younger one takes up a lot of space, right? Or do you struggle with feelings of rejection from people? That may be how it manifests.

Steve: Yeah, probably. I mean, I'm pretty much a people-pleaser kind of person for sure. That may have come from some of that, I don't know.

JJ West: I think it definitely had an impact. It's not that that's the only thing, but it had an impact. I am curious, though, Steve. Was it ever explained to you why your stay with your grandparents was prolonged longer than was initially planned for?

Steve: Oh, if it was, I don't remember. It probably just that I had an older sister who was like six or seven years older and then a sister that was two years older. I was the third, and my mom was very busy and my grandmother had a love for babies. Knowing her, she was probably kind of insistent that, "No, no, it's fine. He can stay longer," and such. It was certainly probably both of those. My mom was really busy with a newborn and my grandma really wanted to keep me around, I'm guessing, was the two reasons. I don't know for sure; it was never really explained.

Brian Perez: But your sisters did not go to your grandparents, just you.

Steve: Right.

JJ West: As an 18-month-old, you can interpret that, and as you're growing up, you can interpret that as you heard the stories that, "Oh, why was I the only one that was sent away? What's wrong with me? Why didn't all the older children go to grandma and grandpa's?"

Dr. Jill Hubbard: And yet the way you describe your grandma, it's almost like you were the special one that got to go. In her mind, she wanted you.

Steve: And as we were older and remembering going to—I was fortunate to have both sets of grandparents—this was probably the favorite one. It was always a privilege to get to go to either grandparent, but especially this one. That was a great relationship. So basically, what you're saying is a journal might help some, to just write it out in more detail and then just tell a few people the story and that might help deal with it a little bit. Again, it's not a real traumatic thing; it's just something that hasn't quite felt right in the past.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Yeah. So it's good to talk it through and process it kind of like what we're doing now. We're holding it up and looking at it from all angles and seeing that, yeah, it had an impact. Does it define all of who you are? No, it doesn't. But it did have an impact. You were also the third child, so sometimes that middle child can get kind of lost. So just looking at your childhood and looking at it now through adult eyes and making sense of it.

JJ West: I think it can also really be helpful whenever you're in a situation—you talked about being a people pleaser—whenever you're in a situation where you're perceiving some sort of fear of rejection or fear of abandonment. "If I don't give you what you want, I won't feel okay." Whenever that stirs up in you, you can recognize that, "Oh, part of this"—we don't know the exact percentage—"but a part of this is actually fueled by that initial feeling of when I was first told the story that I stayed with grandma and grandpa." That's mixed in there. It's not solely what's happening in front of me. That can help you to diffuse the situation and not feel like it's so intense and I have to have an automatic reaction to it.

Brian Perez: Steve, thanks for calling us today here on New Life Live. It reminds me of something that we say all the time. Steve mentioned right now, "You know, I don't think this is a really big deal, so but I'm calling anyway." If it matters to you, it matters. It matters to us, so call in when you've got something going on. Maybe you're stuck in something and you're trying to figure out what it could be. We're here for you. Here at New Life Ministries, lots of resources and articles on our website, newlife.com, our library as well. But if you need someone to chat with, we're here for you. 1-800-NEW-LIFE is our number.

Guest (Male): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: Let's go back to the phones. Here is Peggy in Dallas, Texas, listening on KCBI. Welcome, Peggy, to New Life Live.

Peggy: Thank you very much. I enjoy your show and have been a very long-time listener.

Brian Perez: Thank you. We love hearing that. How can we help you today?

Peggy: I am in my 70s. I've been married to the same man over 50 years. It was a very tumultuous marriage. He was involved in numerous affairs over the years, probably at least the first 20 years of our marriage and probably at least 15 affairs or more. When this all came to light several years ago—it came to light because I found out for sure, it wasn't like he came to me and divulged it, I confronted him when I had definite information.

Since then, he says that he has changed. He has gotten involved in our church. But he still has a lot of the same traits: the flirtatiousness with women, the gaslighting. We do not have the close relationship I had hoped might come out of his honesty. Then one time specifically, it wasn't an affair, but it was an emotional betrayal, a putting-down in front of friends and family, that I did file for divorce and move out.

Brian Perez: How long ago was that, Peggy?

Peggy: That was 2013, so several years ago. I have tried to keep the family together.

Brian Perez: What made you come back, Peggy?

Peggy: Feeling like he was genuinely sorry for his actions.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: This was after you confronted him. It was in 2013.

Peggy: Yes. But now the relationship is so estranged. We really have no emotional bonding. The only activities we do together is family activities and church, which he overcompensates for. He volunteers for everything just to stay busy. I mean, he's gone a lot, just like he was when he was working before he retired. Why I'm calling is it seems like we never resolve any issues. This week, it's like he almost makes me feel guilty for not having a close marriage. It seems to be my fault. There's blaming. This week he was like, "I don't even know you anymore." After 50 years of marriage, I'm not sure what that means.

Brian Perez: Peggy, thank you for calling. This is such a painful story, and it highlights something that is really important whenever we're talking about recovery of any problematic behavior in relationship in marriage. It's not enough just to change the outward behavior of whatever the acting-out behavior is. If it's alcoholism, I stop drinking. If it's drug addiction, I stop using that illegal drug or abusing prescription drugs. If it's sex addiction, I stop the affairs, I stop going to the strip club, or looking at pornography.

That's part of the equation, but it's not enough of the equation because while I act out sexually, in this case he had multiple affairs, I act in relationally. The ways that I act in relationally are the things that you talked about: withdrawn, isolating, lying, blame-shifting, gaslighting, picking fights. All of those are ways that I act in relationally by pushing others out. It's really painful, and obviously we're coming up to the break, so we'll have to talk more on the other side about what it looks like.

One of the questions I want you to wrestle with is, so he comes to you and says, "I don't know you anymore." Well, I would want to know, do you want to? Do you want to know me? Because that takes work. That takes time. That takes effort.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: I love what JJ was saying. The connection between the two of you—in an addiction, you're getting the dopamine hits from the affairs, from the flirtation. When you've been with someone 50 years, it's not the same. That's why it has to be a deeper love and a more intentional love. Otherwise, you just become roommates. We'll talk about that when we come back.

Guest (Male): Every day, we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression, all kinds of ways. Wouldn't you love to be part of a rescue team? Don't miss your opportunity to be part of something that changes lives every single day because everyone matters. Your generosity helps find them. We've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life, and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99 for the 1 is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE, 1-800-639-5433, or newlife.com/99for1. Join the mission. Rescue the one and restore the many.

Guest (Male): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: All right, we are on the phone with Peggy, and right before the break, JJ West, you asked Peggy a question. What was that?

JJ West: I asked her, since her husband said that he doesn't know her anymore, I'm curious if you've ever asked him or what you think his response would be if you asked him, does he want to know you? Also, I would add to that, do you want to be known? Because being known can be scary. It can feel very vulnerable. Do you want to be known, and do you think he wants to know you?

Peggy: In the times of our estrangement that we attempt to work on our issues, I share with him my feelings all through the years that I have felt abandoned, that I have felt betrayed and gaslighted and unimportant and unseen. I feel like I have poured my heart out to him as to what I wanted a relationship to look like. I've been very vulnerable.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: And how has he responded to that?

Peggy: Mostly at that time, one specific time that we were separated, he made all sorts of promises. "I'll do anything, I'll do whatever it takes." We've done some counseling but very minimal in proportion to the trauma.

JJ West: That ratio needs to change dramatically if there's to be not just staying together like you are in this roommate fashion, but if there's to be a renewal of your marriage, a renewal of love. There needs to be effort put in because it's not enough for him to say, "Hey, I've changed. I'm different now. I'm a new man." Great, but there has to be action that follows that. There has to be demonstrated action in the way that he relates to you.

It's not enough for me to say to my wife, "I'm sorry I took so long getting the taxes done." If I'm serious about that, there needs to be a change in the way that I approach it the next year, a measurable change. It can't just be, "Oh, I'm going to be different." I need to show that by my actions. So okay, he doesn't know you, but he could know you. Knowing isn't just, "Oh, I download facts about you." Knowing is I spend time with you. Knowing is I get to know what's important to you. That's going to happen not only through spending time together but also the two of you walking through the recovery process with a therapist who has experience walking couples through betrayal recovery.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Yeah, I think there needs to be a lot more energy put towards this marriage and doing things, working with a therapist, going to our Intimacy in Marriage weekend. Him going to Every Man's Battle. What did he do after all these affairs other than, okay, he's going to church now? I think he's still seeking the dopamine hits in the 'attaboys' from others, and that's what I was saying before. That's really hard for you to compete with, and it doesn't feel as exciting to maybe slow things down and really try to get to know another person. This is where he hits up against his fears of intimacy.

Peggy: We had an occasion less than two months ago that I was out of town with my daughter-in-law and had gone to a ladies' retreat. He had told me that he would be going to a female friend's birthday party alone. When I got back into town, he never mentioned the birthday party. I never knew if he went or not. Then when I asked him, "You never said if you went to Mrs. X's birthday party," and he got really quiet and he said, "Well, I didn't go to her birthday party, but I went to another woman's birthday party that I don't even know." He still says, "I did nothing wrong. I have nothing to apologize for."

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Right. But anything that would cause doubt or lack of trust based on his history, he doesn't get the same latitude he once did as if none of that had ever happened. He has to go above and beyond to make you feel secure. That kind of slippery behavior—maybe technically he didn't do anything wrong, but why was it kind of on the sly? Why did you think it was one thing and then it was really another thing? Then he never told me. He was very deceptive. He never mentioned it. He never said, "Oh, by the way, that party wasn't—it didn't pan out. It was for Mrs. Z's birthday party. And yeah, I went." And I'm like, "Who is that?" This is also someone you don't know.

Peggy: I know the name. I do not know her.

JJ West: So why would he be going to a birthday party of someone you don't know? Is this perhaps somebody at church that he knows?

Peggy: No, she is not at our church.

JJ West: I agree with Jill. It's not so much like he has this new rule he has to follow where he's not allowed to go anywhere without telling you first, like you're his mommy and he's a little boy. It's really about his role, his desire to make you feel safe because he has a track record of making you feel unsafe. Now I want to do whatever I can to help you feel safe and secure in the relationship. Part of that is in me saying, "Hey, by the way, I went to XYZ party, but it turned out to be a different group," or "That didn't work out, so I didn't go." Or I tell you ahead of time because that helps you feel safe. Not because it's a rule I have to follow, not because I'm getting permission from you, but because it's the loving thing that I do to care for your heart, which I've damaged in the past.

Peggy: I tried to explain that in somewhat those same words and it just makes him angry. He gets very angry.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Because he doesn't want to have to be accountable to another person. But marriage is accountability. It's partnership.

JJ West: Peggy, did he—I assume Jill is correct—that he never went to an Every Man's Battle intensive when the affairs came out. Did you know about or attend a Restore workshop for yourself?

Peggy: I did. I went, yes.

JJ West: Good. What was that experience like for you, just to be in the company of other women that understood what you were feeling?

Peggy: It was very humbling to realize how many women this has happened to and the story could have been my story exactly.

JJ West: This illustrates an important point. You're responsible for your recovery. You can't wait for him to decide he wants healing. You can have healing on your own. Now, I hope that he decides that he wants to be part of that process too and that your marriage can heal, but you're not dependent on him deciding to pursue you and have a much more open and honest and invested relationship. You can pursue healing for yourself and your own heart regardless of what your husband chooses.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: But also let him know, if he does want to know you, then you need an atmosphere of safety. You need to feel safe with him. Trust is built through consistency: being consistent, words and actions matching over time. Being able to see that, that will make you feel safe. That's the investment it takes because you can't prove a negative. I can't prove that I didn't cheat on you, I can't prove that I didn't do something wrong at that party. What I can prove is the positive: that I am in communication with you, that I'm invested in the relationship, I'm spending time with you.

Brian Perez: Peggy, so many resources for you and your husband, both individually and as a marriage team. We'll tell you about them when we come back here on New Life Live, but we do have to take a break now. Thanks so much for watching and listening and be in prayer for Peggy. This stuff happened years ago, but it's still going on in her mind. Yeah, and in different ways it is. We'll be back on New Life Live.

Guest (Male): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: For Peggy, whom we were just speaking with a moment ago here on New Life Live, there's the Intimacy in Marriage intensive. That is this weekend. It starts tomorrow in Washington, D.C. Then also for your husband, if he were able to attend the Every Man's Battle intensive, the next one is happening August 7th and the early bird rate for that ends tomorrow.

You also mentioned that you attended the Restore workshop. That's coming up in November, but we've got something similar coming up next weekend, August 1st. It's a Saturday, it's a four-hour online gathering, and it's for women who've experienced betrayal in their marriage. I mean, you know the pain goes far beyond what most people can see. The confusion, the fear, the loneliness, the constant questions. You might be wondering if you're overreacting or if you'll ever feel safe again.

That's why New Life created Rescue: Your First Step Toward Healing. It's led by Licensed Counselor Laura Mangin McDonald. She'll be leading this special online experience designed specifically for women impacted by betrayal. Laura not only specializes in betrayal trauma professionally, but she's also walked this journey personally. It's a four-hour event. You can get all the details at newlife.com and sign up for it. It's happening August 1st.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Brian, it's saying it's a first step, but I think it's also like a tune-up for people, too. You've gone to Restore and you've learned a lot, but now you need another little shot in the arm.

Brian Perez: Get all the details at newlife.com or call us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Whether you call or go to our website, maybe send us a financial contribution. Any gift, large or small, whether you do a one-time gift or you become one of our 99 for the 1 partners, we are greatly appreciative of whatever you can do. You've heard all the calls that we've had this week of people hurting calling in and sharing their stories with us. We want to be here for them when they call in. Sometimes they call on behalf of a friend, like in Jay's case. Jay is in Northampton, Massachusetts. Welcome, Jay, to the show.

Jay: Hello. My situation is I have a friend and I'm worried about him going into sin. He's in a relationship right now that's breaking up and the situation is really complicated. They had an open relationship at one point, and that was not very good with the pastor. He's spoke to people and I'm just trying to find him the right path to go down and not be looking for women of the night, as you might say.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Is your friend talking to you, Jay? How much influence do you have?

Jay: He's communicative, but he breaks down. He's of Japanese descent, so he's very polite and doesn't like to speak about such things.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: But you're worried about him acting out. Has he had a history of that?

Jay: Yes, he has had a history and that's what I'm worried about. He did go to a sexual anonymous group for his problems.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Whenever there's a relationship ending, while extremely painful, it is an opportunity to do some work on ourselves and to look at what went wrong. What was my part? How can I do it differently next time? How can I learn from this and not waste the experience but grow through it? Certainly not being isolated, not returning to old habits, getting a support group around you of supportive friends that he can fill his time with along with continued recovery support.

It's hard when it's a friend because you can't make them and people's pain seems to rise above all logic. So they may agree and say, "Yes, that's reasonable," but it's that middle of the night loneliness and that ache.

Jay: He actually ordered a doll, I'll put it that way, that worries me very much.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: So he has a hard time speaking of these things, and yet you seem to know a lot about his life.

Jay: He sort of can't hide it at points and that's what makes me worried. It's like he's living two lives almost. He confesses some things to you but then the other side of him takes over. It's kind of like admission to guilt and he's almost giving himself penance in a way privately. I just didn't know if there was any certain verses of the Bible that might help him out.

JJ West: Jay, I don't know that there's specific verses that are going to use this as a magic formula or secret sauce that's going to transform him. I wish that there were. I could make a fortune if I could find those verses that you just read them and then boom, you're magically transformed. That doesn't really exist.

What does exist and what's really important is the fact that he has some people in his life like you, Jay. I love the fact that you care about your friend. Now you can't do the work of recovery for him. You can't fix, change, or control others. You can't make him behave a certain way, avoid sins, whatever. What you can do is be a good friend who comes alongside him and says, "Listen, I love you, even if you make terrible, disastrous choices. I love you. You're my brother. I'm going to walk with you. But I love you too much to not say something."

"In the past, you've made some decisions that were painful, destructive to you, to relationships. You're going to take you into the next phase of life, whether that's another relationship or singleness or whatever. You still take you into that next phase of life. So as a loving brother, to be able to ask him, what kind of man do you want to be? Do you want to be a man who pursues integrity, or do you want to be a man who continues to find solace for your shame, from your pain, in your sexual acting out, whatever that looks like?"

And to say, "Listen, I want to be a resource for you. So if it is 3:00 in the middle of the night and you're thinking that you want to get online and look at something or go to a strip club or call a prostitute or whatever, I want you to know that you could reach out to me. And more importantly than that, I want you to know that you could reach out to God. There is a higher power, God, who wants to restore your life to sanity and not continue to live in the chaos because we know where that leads."

Yeah, for a little while it feels good, but in the end, it never feels good. In the end, I just feel more shame, more brokenness, and more despair. The fact that you're in his life is important. Know there's not going to be a verse that magically wakes him up and goes, "Oh, I can't do this anymore." There's certainly the whole of Scripture that tells us that God's ways are better than our ways, God's thoughts are better than our thoughts, and that the path of sin leads to destruction. There's a way that seems right to us, but in the end it leads only to death. That's Proverbs 14:12.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: And Jay, ask him, what are the feelings that feel intolerant? Because that's where his impulse control is weakest. What feels so intolerant? Have him admit those things to you because that's part of melting away the shame. God bless you guys. Thanks for watching and listening.

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