New Life LIVE

Brian Perez: Well, hello. Welcome to New Life LIVE. I'm your host, Brian Perez. We are here. We are ready to chat with you for two hours. Give us a call at 1-800-229-3000. No, don't text me. Call. People are texting me right now. No, you have to call in. 1-800-229-3000. We've got clinical psychologist Dr. Alice Benton here. Licensed marriage and family therapist Dr. Jackie Mac Harris will be joining us shortly, too. But Alice, hi. What's on your mind to start us off?

Dr. Alice Benton: Brian, I had a flurry of problems this morning. Granted, they were first-world problems, but they hit me one after another a little hard. I'll give you the partial rundown and save you the details. As I headed out to my car to come to New Life, and I had just the right amount of time to get here, I had a flat tire. My husband generously offered his car. I hop in. It's empty. His gas tank is empty!

I was trying to decide: Do I stop at a gas station or do I risk it? I hit traffic that wasn't normally there on the highway. I was speeding to try to get here on time. I pass a police officer.

Brian Perez: And you were going so fast, he couldn't even pull you over.

Dr. Alice Benton: He didn't pull me over. So, here's my question for all of us, me included: When you are dysregulated, what is your most likely unhealthy response? And I'll confess first. Mine is to lash out at my loved ones. My poor husband—he hasn't heard this part of it yet from me—but my mind starts to criticize him for having an empty tank.

How could he do this to me when he's giving me his car for the day? My tank was empty just a couple days ago, but I had good reason for my tank being empty. I can go into hypercritical, negative thinking about my loved ones, and I can lash out at them. Brian, would you say what's your unhealthy default when you're dysregulated?

Brian Perez: Mine might be panic. Because that's what I heard earlier when I found out you might be late and Jackie might be late. I'm just like, what's going to happen if I get there and they're not there yet? What am I going to say for five minutes, ten minutes, however long it takes them to arrive?

Dr. Alice Benton: And panic is one of the normal defaults. So, I'll give you four normal defaults, and I want everybody to be thinking, what's yours? Do you lash out at loved ones like I do? Do you shut down? Do you escape? A couple of the normal escapes are workaholism, overeating, alcohol, and pornography.

Because we all become emotionally dysregulated, some of us on a chronic basis, and we have to cope with it somehow. Most of us default to unhealthy coping. So, here's what I tried to do today because I recognized pretty quickly that I was feeling dysregulated. I want you to think about taking these steps yourself.

Become aware of your body and your body's reaction to dysregulation. My shoulders go up to about here, and my breathing gets constricted. What happens to your thoughts? I get critical of the people around me, certainly not of myself. And unless I control it, that critique is going to come out at least in an edgy tone of voice and a snippiness and probably some nasty body language. I can continue in a spiral in this way. It can become a vicious cycle.

What we can do to counter that is the awareness, checking our thoughts, and replacing them with some of God's thoughts. Thankfully, a Bible verse came to me: "Consider it pure joy whenever you face trials of any kind." Actually, that annoyed me more! But I thought, "All right, God, You've got something for me in this. I can't get myself out of this problem, but You can help me through it."

Then I chose to think all the positive things about my husband. He's a great man. He's helping me out. He was looking out for me today. We have to counter and choose to counter our negative unhealthy coping. It is not easy to do, but we can learn how to do it.

Brian Perez: Yeah, if it's our default mode to just drift into anger or panic or whatever, we've got to learn and maybe practice ahead of time. "What would I do if my gas tank was empty?" Anyway, we'll be back after we take a quick break. Lucy will be up first.

One of the things we say often here at New Life LIVE is that we never stop growing. And that's why we're so excited to partner with Hope for the Heart for the Hope Together Conference that's happening this October. If you are a pastor, counselor, coach, small group leader, or simply someone who wants to better help hurting people, this conference is for you.

Plus, New Life listeners receive 20% off registration using code NLM20. NLM as in New Life Ministries, and 20 as in 20% discount. Love it. Early bird pricing on top of that ends July 31st, so now is a great time to register at hopetogether.com. Again, that promo code is NLM20. 1-800-229-3000 is our number. Dr. Jackie Mac Harris is here now. Hi there, Jackie. Good to see you.

Dr. Jackie Mac Harris: Hi. Glad to be here. Good to see you too.

Brian Perez: Let's go to the phones. Lucy in Los Angeles. Hello. Thank you for calling. What's going on?

Lucy: Thanks for taking my call. My question is, what does it mean to be independent in relationships? I read that in one of your tip sheets, I thought, but I didn't find it.

Brian Perez: Okay. So why do you ask this question?

Lucy: I really want to understand what that means, being independent in a relationship.

Dr. Alice Benton: And Lucy, why does it concern you? Are there relationships that you think, "I might be overly dependent on these people"?

Lucy: It's not only for me, but for a close friend who I know is not at all independent in his primary relationship with his girlfriend. It's serious in his case. I would like to know for myself because I find myself thinking someone in my life is wonderful and flawless and on and on. Then when they do something that I would think was cruel or not positive, then I really go to the other extreme and reject them completely. I've been reading more about codependency and attending Al-Anon meetings. This is important for me to understand.

Dr. Alice Benton: So Lucy, you're saying that when you see a flaw in a person after maybe idealizing them, you abruptly end the relationship?

Lucy: Yes.

Dr. Alice Benton: I praise your awareness. You described that very clearly and very succinctly. Usually there's a historical root to it. When you think back to one of the most important relationships where that happened, you were sorely disappointed by a sudden bad characteristic in a person. What is one relationship that comes to mind?

Lucy: Maybe with parents.

Dr. Alice Benton: And would you describe that a little? What were your parents like? How did they treat you?

Lucy: They were very abusive. Both of them were physically, emotionally, and verbally abusive.

Dr. Alice Benton: That makes so much sense.

Lucy: I've had 25 years of counseling.

Dr. Alice Benton: So of course, when you see warning signs now in people, you might be too quick to back away from them. But you're protecting yourself because you've experienced the worst of it.

Lucy: Oh, immediately. Yeah.

Dr. Jackie Mac Harris: I love this question. So often I talk to people about being a whole self. When I do a lot of couples work, the Scripture about "becoming one," I always thought, that's such terrible math! When does that ever happen? Then Chris Williams said it's multiplication, and so now I get it. But I always struggled with it because oftentimes we come to relationships and we're not even a whole one.

That independent piece is about me being an individual, a whole individual. I'm bringing all of my parts into the relationship: my relationship with Christ, what matters to me, what I enjoy, how I view the world, how I move in the world, how I experience the world, my hopes and dreams, and likes and dislikes. My husband also brought his own set of that into the relationship. Me being independent doesn't mean that I am functioning solely apart from him in every aspect of life.

We are one in terms of this unit, this marriage. We are the Harrises. This is where we become one. But in order for us to be healthy, in order for the 38 years to actually be in existence, we had to allow each of us to be our own person. I am interested in things that he is not interested in. He is interested in things that I am not interested in. We will often come over and hang out with each other.

There was a season in our marriage that was hard, and we grew apart. I grew this way, and he grew that way. Every once in a while, he would come and hang out over here, and every once in a while, I would come and hang out over there. We didn't grow apart. We just gave each other permission and space to grow into whatever it was God was calling us to be.

God has used those differences to be a support in each other's ministries and businesses and all that. It's important to be independent in a relationship because if I don't know who I am, if I don't have a core self, if I'm not guided by what God is saying to me, if He's not ordering my steps, I am doing what I do based on what someone else wants. I'm making choices based on what's best for them and not what's best for me.

Some of us grew up in environments where we were taught that that was what a good relationship looked like. That was what it was to be good and to be kind. You do what the other person says you should do. If they want everybody to go to sleep at nine o'clock, even though you're more of a night owl, you're going to go to sleep at nine o'clock because that's love.

Well, that's not actually healthy because you're just laying there tossing and turning and oftentimes building resentment because you're doing something you don't want to do for this other person. They think it's lovely because they believe that's just how it should be. But that's them as an individual.

Being independent means I might say, maybe we go to bed at the same time some nights, but it might not happen every night. Some nights I want to stay up and read, or I want to write, or I'm working on a project, or I just really like it when everybody else in the house is asleep and I get to be up by myself. That's me taking independent time for myself.

My husband would never have gone to school at night online. For me, it made perfect sense because it's my favorite time of day. But I got to independently do that. Being independent in relationship doesn't mean being contrary. It doesn't mean being opposed to your partner. It just means you have a core self of your own and your wellness is not necessarily contingent upon what the other person thinks or wants.

Dr. Alice Benton: And Lucy, the way you protect yourself when you see those flaws in other people, that is so wise when you have parents like you did. And yet you may now cut good people off too quickly. My prescription for you is that you would allow some people that you know to be safe—imperfect, but willing to talk about their imperfections and work through them—to provide reparative experience.

When a flaw comes up, you can say, "Ooh, that hurt. I need to talk about that" with someone who will say, "Oh gosh, I didn't realize I did that. Let's talk it through." Sometimes we can only find those people first in a therapist that we pay to help us through, or in a group like our New Life groups, which are all over the country. Then we learn to live in the gray area with people.

People aren't usually all good or all bad. There are exceptions, and your parents may have been primarily bad as they were horrifically abusive.

Lucy: Those are lots of good points.

Dr. Alice Benton: Even you can say that for them.

Lucy: I've thought about it. I worked on it.

Dr. Alice Benton: Well, 25 years in therapy. I would say that the Lord calls us to have healthy dependence on other people while also working on some good self-sufficiency. I think about Galatians where we're told, "Carry your own load." That means I am supposed to be independent and responsible to a certain extent. But we're also told, "Carry each other's burdens."

Those sound contradictory. My understanding is that the load is like a backpack. I can handle a backpack. That's my everyday stuff that I need to work on. But the burden is something much bigger than a backpack. It is when I hit up against—my mother-in-law is in hospice right now, and our family is stretched too thin, and we need help. We need prayers and meals.

That is when we put the call out to other people. I would guess that you probably tend more towards isolation because people are so unsafe because they're all imperfect. But Jesus showed us that we need a little circle of people around us, like a Peter, James, and John, so we can say, "I'm in agony right now, and I really need you to stay awake and pray with me." So Lucy, how is all this sitting with you? What are you thinking and feeling?

Lucy: I'm glad I asked the question because everything that you said shed some light on that statement. I appreciate your input.

Dr. Jackie Mac Harris: Dr. Alice mentioned how sometimes we're carrying each other's burdens. There is Scripture that says that we can stand alone, but it's much easier for us to be dominated and overtaken when we stand alone. There are times where we need others. When we stand with others, then nothing can tear us apart. It's a balance.

I think it is important to be an individual and to know who you are and to have a sense of independence in life in order to grow and be healthy. But also, we were created for relationship, and so we need one another. It's not good for man to be alone.

Dr. Alice Benton: So Lucy, I would challenge you. I want you to think about two people who have hurt you in your life and think about whether one of them might be the safe enough kind of person that they might actually be repentant if you gently, lovingly pointed out how they hurt you. That has the possibility of a reparative experience.

As we get really strong in assertiveness, sometimes we even have to tell a person that they've hurt us, even though we know they're not going to take it well. They are probably going to lash back out at me. But I'm going to stand up for myself. I'm going to say it anyway. When they lash out, that provides the information of, "Oh, you are not safe for me to let my guard down with."

So I'm going to have to distance and guard my heart from you. Maybe I'm still in relationship because you're family, you're my boss, or you're my coworker, but I need to act differently in relationship with you because you don't have the humility that makes it a safe relationship.

Dr. Jackie Mac Harris: And for the friend that you're concerned about: one, hopefully they get to hear this show. But also, be willing to let them share with you and being a safe place. If you're fearful that maybe they are completely overtaken in a relationship and have lost themselves in some codependency, be in prayer for them and with them and be a safe place so that they can come and share.

Then you can hold a mirror up for them. Oftentimes in therapy, what we do is we just reflect back what people share in a way that they can use. So being a safe place where that person can go when they do feel like, "Well, I wanted to do this and they forced this," or "We were fighting about these things," then you might be able to shed some light for them or hold some safe space. Maybe invite them to listen to the show.

Lucy: That's what I have done. I have done that, and I haven't given them all the information when I'm working on this stuff. So I thank you. It just confirms my feelings and what I'm going to do for them, and it helps me as well.

Brian Perez: That's great. Did you have a closing thought?

Dr. Alice Benton: I just want to acknowledge that it's so much easier said than done. I was hurt by a family member recently. It took me four days to bring it up because I'm scared, and I don't think they'll take it well. But I'm practicing assertiveness, too. I'm practicing healthy dependence but also assertive independence. So Lucy, I'm in the struggle and in the fray with you.

Brian Perez: "I don't like confrontation!" That's that line from that Toy Story movie, I think. But yeah, if you don't like confrontation, you can call in. We'll show you how to not confront people in a bad way. But we've got to get these things out. We need to be able to tell people how we feel, not just keep it inside. 1-800-229-3000.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE. We've got another round of New Life courses beginning in just a few weeks. We offer three courses, and each one is an hour a week for 12 weeks.

The titles are: Lose It For Life, Healing Is A Choice, and Take Your Life Back. These are faith-based, counselor-led courses, and they meet on Zoom. You'll experience small group community for encouragement, connection, and accountability, and you'll grow stronger, healthier, and more confident in your daily life. Once registration closes, you're going to have to wait until 2027 for the next round. Sign up now. If it's on your heart, don't wait. You can get all the details at newlife.com or by calling us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE.

Dr. Alice Benton: Brian, when I was telling Lucy to have those reparative experiences, the best place I know to find those kind of people—imperfect, wanting to grow, and wanting to work on repair—has been the New Life groups and the New Life intensives. That's where I found my spiritual community.

Brian Perez: Now, I want to touch on something you mentioned a little ago, Jackie, and then we'll go to the phones at 1-800-229-3000. I think you were saying if you're not a whole person... I know a guy who has always wanted to get married. He's about my age, just a couple months older than I am. He hasn't found "the one" because other friends of his are like, "Dude, you're too picky."

There's that, but then there's also when you're looking at yourself and you're like, "I'm not even whole," like you said. Should we put off finding relationship or something until our lives are perfect? I mean, that's never going to happen.

Dr. Jackie Mac Harris: I don't think we should put it off until our lives are perfect, but I do think we need an awareness. Many of us don't have that opportunity before we end up getting married. It's the iron-sharpens-iron thing. We don't even know our flaws until we're in that kind of intimate relationship and now we have this mirror put up to us all the time.

Then, oh my goodness, have children! Do you have a mirror up then! It's a floodlight on the flaws. So I don't necessarily believe you have to hold off. But if you are finding that you are getting to later and later in life, never been married, and can't seem to find "the one," you have work to do. We're all created for relationship. No one's perfect, not one.

There is something in you that believes that there is a person out there that is going to make you feel the things that will then say, "Okay, this is it." You're giving all that power and responsibility to another person to make you feel enough or whole or happy. I think that right there is a sign that you should be meeting with someone. You're going to then bring somebody else into your unhealthiness. If you were to find the perfect person, they stop being perfect as soon as they say "I do" to you, right?

Brian Perez: Yes, I was going to say that! If you find the perfect church, it will stop being perfect as soon as you walk in the door, right? Whatever you bring is going to change things up. I believe in systems—if anything in a system changes, it impacts the entire system. A relationship is definitely going to do that.

That friend would benefit from doing their own work and getting to know themselves, and then doing the whole—there are safe ways to do these multiple dates a month, like getting to know lots of people. Join some groups. Find lots of opportunities to meet different people as you're doing your work on yourself. People who are older who are looking for partners would have a better chance. Also, we have some rigid thinking about what that needs to look like, and therapy can help with shaping that.

Dr. Alice Benton: And please don't use the excuse of "it's too late for me." I've worked with some fabulous 80-year-olds who decided, "I'm going to make the most of the time that I have left."

Dr. Jackie Mac Harris: Absolutely. I actually have a friend right now who is in her late 70s and her and her fiancé are about to get married. We're all happy for them and shocked. They're both great people, both widowed, and they have so much in common. God's brought them together at this late stage in their life and they're having a great time and they want to do it together.

Brian Perez: 1-800-229-3000 is our number. And do my eyes deceive me? No, we have a call from Budapest. Zabi is watching us on YouTube. Hello. Thank you so much for calling in today.

Zabi: Oh, hello. Thank you for taking my call.

Brian Perez: Yeah, great to hear from you. How did you find out about New Life in Hungary?

Zabi: It's a long story. I've read the books from Henry Cloud and John Townsend, *Boundaries*. I started doing some research on the internet, and I got to this radio. This was like 10 years ago.

Dr. Alice Benton: Zabi, that's the same way I found New Life. I found their book in the library, had never heard of New Life, but I liked what I was reading. So I also went for that pearl of great price and found New Life.

Brian Perez: And now she's sitting in the pearly white chair. Well, Zabi, we're almost coming up to our break, but we do want to talk to you. What is the main question that you have for us today, and then we'll get into the details when we come back?

Zabi: I've been dating my girlfriend for two years. We are in a breakup standby situation. I have this terrible feeling when I'm next to her. She's very wealthy. She has her own business abroad. I just couldn't find a job in that country. A lot of my savings went out because I was going to her without a job, using my money. I'm just thinking I might have done something very, very wrong in my past.

Brian Perez: Got it. We're going to take our break now. We'll be right back to you on New Life LIVE.

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To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE. All right, let's go back to the phones now. We've got a call from Budapest in Hungary. Zabi is calling in, watching us on YouTube. Thank you so much for calling in, Zabi.

So you've explained about this girl that you're dating and she's got her own business and she's very successful. You've basically drained your savings account to be able to visit with her and everything. What is it that we can help you with?

Zabi: I was searching for a job in Switzerland. I didn't have any success with that. I was taking risks and refused job offers in Budapest just to spend more time there and involve myself in the job search. It just didn't work out. After two years, she is upset that I didn't propose to her. I'm without a job and my self-confidence is quite low. Seeing how successful she is is a terrible feeling. I'm happy for her, but still, how will I achieve something similar?

Dr. Jackie Mac Harris: I imagine it's tough to want to propose to someone when you don't have a job. You don't want to make that next step when you don't feel like you can really contribute much financially. Is she feeling that same way? Have you told her that this is the issue?

Zabi: Yes, and she said that this cannot be an issue. If I really want to be with her and marry her, then I would have proposed and finances shouldn't be an issue. But...

Dr. Alice Benton: Does she want you to share in the success she's already built in her business so it doesn't matter to her that you don't have the same financial stability you used to have?

Zabi: This is about how I feel as a man. She purchased a house in Hungary and she invested a lot in that house, and I just couldn't contribute to that financially. It's embarrassing for me.

Dr. Alice Benton: And she doesn't have a problem with your financial situation. It's not problematic for her, but of course it is for you.

Zabi: In a way, yes. She said that this is very problematic that after two years I am not working. She said that maybe I am too lazy and don't want to work, since she is wealthy and maybe I will get along and do nothing all day. On the other side, I'm thinking, how could I have done such a thing, like taking such a big risk without a job? I have some savings, but still, I'm just playing with my retirement or with my financial stability.

Dr. Alice Benton: Zabi, which one of you put the relationship on hold, and why?

Zabi: She did it because she said she's 36 years old, she wants to have kids, and time is passing by.

Dr. Jackie Mac Harris: What is the question we can answer for you today?

Zabi: What can I do to get rid of this terrible feeling of worthlessness when I see her success? In her life, everything is going well. Like now, she's buying her third house. She has customers and clients and money is floating in. I'm now struggling to find a job here in Budapest. To see someone so successful is very terrifying for me.

Brian Perez: This is a strange question, but would you consider working for her? Is that an option even, or...

Zabi: I wouldn't do that. She proposed this, but let's keep it like she is my girlfriend and I am her boyfriend. Let's not make this an employee/boss thing. She has a very strong personality. I don't know if that would work out.

Dr. Jackie Mac Harris: So you're now looking for a job in Budapest, and you said you had turned down some opportunities in the past while you were trying to find work in Switzerland?

Zabi: At least 10 job offers.

Dr. Jackie Mac Harris: Have you reached back out to those opportunities to see if there's anything available now?

Zabi: Yes, I'm active, writing to HR personnel, applying, and sending CVs. I'm just thinking how to solve this financial gap. I'm just thinking, will I ever reach that level? Because as a man, I want to provide for a future family and I see an example in front of my eyes. It's possible to own your house and have even three apartments.

Dr. Alice Benton: Zabi, when you wonder how to get rid of the feeling, I think two things at least are drawing you into this horrible feeling you have. One is the comparison trap. You are setting her as the standard for your life. I probably would too if I were in your shoes. But that may not be God's plan for you to reach that level of business success. It is great that she has it.

But also in the comparison, I think you're believing a lot of lies about yourself. The lie might be you are too lazy and you are just going to ride on her coat tails. But you're giving us all this evidence that you're a very hard worker and you are qualified. 10 different jobs wanted you, and you chose to sacrifice that to build a relationship with her.

When we get stuck in comparison and we find ourselves falling short, we start to believe negative things and exaggerated things that are usually not that true about us. All of us have a lazy side, so maybe there's a little bit of truth that sometimes you're lazy and don't always work as hard as you could.

I also suspect there's some history here that predates her. Maybe you were compared to other people, perhaps by your parents. Somebody took you into unhealthy comparison when you were young. Probably somebody was too hard on you and told you things that weren't true about you. Does that fit, and does anybody come to mind?

Zabi: Yeah, my sister. The teachers were telling me my sister was better at French and English and she had better grades than me. My father did the same thing. Yes, this comparison was present in my life. But this doesn't change the present reality that I have savings, I can maintain myself independently for four months, and after that, if I don't find anything, I will need to go back to my dad. This is the harsh reality.

Dr. Alice Benton: I see what you're saying, that that history doesn't change the current. But the comparison and these overly negative beliefs about yourself are fueling how you're thinking and feeling about your girlfriend. It could be dictating your actions in a way that is not healthy.

For instance, you may be looking at some things in a way that doesn't quite fit the reality, certainly about yourself. I think you're believing you're not as hard a worker as you are. You already have savings and you haven't dipped into them? That tells me you have some financial savvy that a lot of people in this world don't have.

I don't want to jump into comparison there either, but I want to praise the fact that you have a lot of skills and talent, but it's hard for you to believe that about yourself. Even though this seems like it doesn't fit the relationship with her, I would recommend that you make sure you're in therapy working on the comparison and how that affected you with your sister and with your dad.

It is influencing how you make decisions about your girlfriend in a way that may not be best for you in the long run. It's strange, but repairing those unfinished things from the past is what helps us to have a clearer view and better decision-making in the present.

Dr. Jackie Mac Harris: You had amassed enough savings to have gotten through two and a half years. You're capable. But it is the thinking that is your problem—this thinking that you're unworthy because you're not as successful as she is. That's because you've been being told that your whole life. You have to go do work on that if you want that thinking to change. Therapy is the way to go about it.

Dr. Alice Benton: Because then that will help you decide: Is this a good relationship worth pursuing, or are there too many complications and this isn't going to work out for us in the long run? I don't think you can make that decision until you get better clarity about the kind of man you really are.

Brian Perez: So yes, he should go to therapy. It might take a few weeks or months, maybe longer. What's one quick thing that maybe he could do?

Dr. Alice Benton: Tell your girlfriend: "I'm realizing some of this is about me. It's about comparison. I'm going to go do some work on this so we can figure out whether we stay in a standby, break up, or keep working on this."

Brian Perez: All right. Well, we'll be back on New Life LIVE.

Quick shout out to our "99 For The One" partners. We are so grateful for you guys. You're the community of monthly givers whose faithful support helps assure that our phones are answered and that help is available when desperate calls are made each day to New Life.

We've carved out time to gather with our "99 For The One" partners on Zoom on August 11th at 7 p.m. Central Time. Alice Benton will be discussing the challenges of living in a screen-saturated world, and you'll hear from Becky Brown, President of New Life Ministries, and others on the New Life team.

If you aren't yet a "99 For The One" partner, you can sign up today. Visit newlife.com/9941 for all the details. Any amount, large or small, monthly, is what it takes to be a partner.

Back to the phones now. We'll be here for two hours, by the way. So after this hour is done, you can call in next hour as well. You can change your name if you want. Just call in because you need help. 1-800-229-3000 is our number. Here is Jane in Washington D.C., who listens to us on Sirius XM, Channel 131. Let's find out what Jane says.

Jane: Yes, I'm calling about my grandson and actually my daughter and husband's dynamics with him. He is four and a half. He has a little brother, three. My daughter and her husband are just not on the same page. They're not a united front in helping him resolve conflicts. Shuts down and holds the whole family hostage with his actions. He just responds with "no, no, no, no, no." There's no timeout, even after timeout he can't handle stuff.

Dr. Jackie Mac Harris: Jane, can you give us an example of a time he holds the family hostage with his actions?

Jane: Okay, so for instance this morning, my daughter was trying to feed him breakfast and she cut the French toast the long way, and he just melts down. You just cannot bring him out of the meltdown. It takes 30 minutes for him to kind of get over it. We're all sitting there offering anything else to help him, and everything just stops.

Dr. Jackie Mac Harris: He can't make the transition.

Jane: He cannot make the transition. If you're going to put him in timeout, she tries to say, "Tell me how you feel" and all this stuff, and it just doesn't work. What's happening with the adults? When he's upset, what are the adults like?

Jane: She tries to be empathetic with him, but he just keeps yelling back at her. Usually if my son-in-law's here, they both just drop everything and try to get him out of whatever funk this is. He cannot transition.

Dr. Alice Benton: Jane, is your son-in-law equally as empathetic and gentle with the attempts as your daughter is?

Jane: Yes.

Dr. Alice Benton: Oh. But you said they're not on the same page. So where is their disagreement that affects the boy?

Jane: They'll argue in front of the children. It's almost like who's going to be more empathetic or who's going to get him resolved. They don't react together as a team.

Dr. Jackie Mac Harris: So does it look anxious and messy and they're dysregulated?

Jane: Yes.

Dr. Jackie Mac Harris: Did your daughter have any challenges growing up with anxiety?

Jane: This is the older son, and he was very shy. My daughter was the same way, but I didn't say, "Oh, you're shy, you're shy, you're shy." They both have said this as a way to be empathetic. "We can understand you're shy." So I kind of think that labeled him.

Dr. Jackie Mac Harris: I want you to pause for a minute. You said you didn't acknowledge your daughter's shyness, and she is doing that. You didn't say it because you didn't want her to walk around with that label, but she has done that. She's done it because it wasn't done for her.

When you watch how she's parenting, and it's so different than you would have done with her, she's responding the way she is because she didn't get it. Yes, it's hard, but he's four. He's learning. What he needs is everybody to have the patience to help him learn how to make the transitions. That's going to take some time.

He doesn't know how to do it the other way. The big feelings that he has inside, he has parents that are giving him the room to have those feelings. They probably need to do some work of their own because he has those big feelings because they have them. They probably are Gen Xers. They are probably the generation of kids who it didn't matter what you felt, you did what you were supposed to do.

It looks really different to the parents of those kids because we're moving differently because we didn't like how it felt when it was us. You've got to give them some space. You should probably go take a walk when it all happens. That's why I was saying, what's the energy of everybody in the room? Everybody's feeling everybody's energy, even if we're not saying anything.

If it's upsetting to you, then you've got these two parents both competing to show you that they're a good parent and to control the situation. You walk away because it bugs you, and that's fine. You let them help him learn how to regulate his emotions, but they all have to learn how to regulate their emotions and co-regulate.

As a grandmother, I would recommend family counseling. Even though it seems like this is taking so long, 30 minutes is not that long, and he is still learning. Hopefully over time and consistency and teaching him how to use choice, this diminishes and he learns how to navigate his emotions better. Right now, it's all still really new and these feelings are bigger than he is.

Everybody telling him it's fine just have it this way doesn't do any good because his brain has already seen, "Well no, it's supposed to be cut this way." Children are not manipulative. Being spoiled is something people say, but really, I think we're trying to teach our children to manage the world differently than we did because where we are right now isn't working.

That means those of us who are uncomfortable with the immediate obedience not being present are going to have to go do our own work as well. Him just snapping to and behaving appropriately because it's what all the grown-ups in the room need says what he's feeling right then is less important than everybody else's comfort. We've spent generations comforting people other than ourselves, and then we end up unhealthy adults. My hope is that everybody gets in some therapy and gets the support that they need.

Dr. Alice Benton: I would have the family consider: Are any of them highly sensitive people? Are any of them on the autism spectrum?

Brian Perez: Thanks so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember, we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to newlife.com to find out more information. Thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing, and we're so glad that you're here.