New Life LIVE

Brian Perez: Welcome to the New Life LIVE podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

We hope you're all having a good day so far and we pray it'll be even better by the end of our time together. My name is Brian Perez and this is New Life LIVE. Look, if you feel like you've tried everything and nothing seems to help, you've got to call us for a plan to help you move forward. There's always something you can do. Always. Licensed marriage and family therapist Dr. Jackie Mack Harris is here with us today. Happy birthday, Jackie.

Jackie Mack Harris: Thank you.

Brian Perez: And doctor of marriage and family therapy, Sherry Denham-Kepper is here too. Ladies, great to have you both in the studio today for two hours. Sherry, what's on your mind to start us off?

Sherry Denham-Kepper: Well, I was thinking about coming in today. I knew it was your birthday and I thought how many times do we actually honor people? How important it is to honor people. It's weird. We have birthdays and then people honor us this one time a year.

But I started thinking about how often we actually miss moments of just sending love, sending a word of affirmation, delighting in someone, acknowledging something good that someone did. Maybe I'm coming from a place of growing up in a home where I have something that I call wounds of omission. Wounds of omission are actually trauma events, but they're kind of the silent but deadly type.

They're the type where maybe you've grown up in a home where you weren't seen, you weren't heard, you weren't delighted in, you weren't acknowledged because there could have been addiction going on in your family. There could have been mental illness going on. You might have had a parent who grew up and was depressed and so they were so shut down that they weren't really aware of you.

You might be someone like myself who was a latchkey kid who grew up in a home where Gilligan's Island and I Dream of Jeannie became your parents. Mr. Rogers—some people talk about how important these people are. But with those wounds of omission, people kind of minimize. We often minimize these and say, "Well, it's not like I was beat. I wasn't sexually molested or anything like that."

And so you minimize what you didn't get: to be acknowledged, to be seen, to be heard, to be loved. So I just want to challenge us today to think about this new year. As we're moving into 2026, what would it look like if you were to open your eyes, open your ears, open your heart, look around, and begin to send some words of affirmation to those that are around you?

It's okay if it hasn't been someone you've talked to in a while. Might even feel weird or awkward to send them a text out of context, but you know what? We crave that. We need that. It builds up our heart, builds up our self-image, builds up our integrity and our care for ourselves. So anyway, it's the gift that keeps on giving.

Jackie Mack Harris: I love that. I have some friends that are really good at that. One of my girlfriends, Fish, just randomly will send me hugs or just randomly will say, "Just thinking about you, I love you." And it just brightens your day. We need it.

Brian Perez: I grew up with Cookie Monster, so that says a lot about me. But anyway, going by what Sherry just said, if the Lord laid someone on your mind at that point, whoever that was, it could be a prompting. So do it right now. Send them that text.

You know, ladies, I've got a statistic here from the CDC, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The rate of depression has increased by 60% over the past decade. 60% in 10 years. It could be why we get more calls here at New Life LIVE. Sherry and Jackie, have you two seen much of an uptick in your practices in the last 10 years?

Jackie Mack Harris: I've seen an increase in people acknowledging their depression because it's getting beyond, "Oh, I was down for a few days." It's starting to last longer. We are in a loneliness epidemic and that can lead to depression. We work longer, harder than we should and that can lead to chronic pain, and that can lead to depression. And so, yes, we really are and I do see it and I see the effects of it on families and on relationships. But I see people coming in and doing their work and I'm hopeful.

Sherry Denham-Kepper: I could say honestly that I've seen an uptick in the last 10 days. Think about it. This is post-Christmas. This has been a week of reflection. I don't know about everyone else, but here in Southern California, it rained for a couple weeks. I've had a number of conversations with people about how the rain felt uncomfortable, like it was inviting them into something, like they couldn't go out and distract from some of the heartache that happened during the holidays.

They were kind of more inside. In Southern California, we're used to being out in the sun and there's lots of things to do and places to go. But when you've got families and kids—and so I had a conversation this week with someone and we were talking about how, for them, they would prefer to be in anxiety in a place of fighting through something, anxiously trying to be busy and wrap and rush.

But everything really shut down and I said, "Do you think you might be depressed? Do you think you might be trying to run away from those sad feelings?" And the holiday, the way it was, only gave you a bigger envelope to have to feel that, like a crockpot of sad. I think there's people that sat over this holiday in a crockpot of sad.

And I also think there were more people that tried to run and get away and travel this holiday because I think 2025 was a hard year for many people. I'm not sure why it was hard in so many ways for so many different people, but I think when it comes to depression, I think we're afraid of feeling that sadness because I think we're afraid of what we're going to find there—that we're not going to stop crying or that it's going to overtake us.

Jackie Mack Harris: I literally had someone say that to me this week: that they were afraid that once they started, they wouldn't be able to stop. We were talking about depression and would you be willing to maybe meet with someone individually to go over that. And that's their fear. So they just would rather just leave it in the box.

They're not sure. Are we really ready to let Pandora out of the box? Because we know that once we do, she's not going to go back in there. And so he was able to say, "I don't want to feel it. I don't want to go there. And I don't want to go there because once I start, I might not be able to stop."

I was able to encourage him, though, because the only way through is through. So once you start, you are now in movement and in motion. We can get through. We can learn tools and techniques. We can address some of the things that are underneath the depression. We can make some lifestyle changes. Sometimes it's the season.

I've had a few people this season that have recognized that when the time changed and it started getting darker earlier and the days were shorter and it's getting colder, they start to feel low. They start to feel down. And then the holidays are happening around the same time. So there is a lot to kind of bring some people down. You're right, people were going away a lot this time for holidays. I know people that went on a cruise or went to Hawaii. It wasn't the same, "Let's all stay home around the Christmas tree" kind of a thing. And I also know a lot of people this year who opted out of Christmas for various reasons. They just were like, "I'm just not doing it this year." And even though they made that choice, they still struggled and had the sadness around it.

Sherry Denham-Kepper: You know one thing about depression—I know we've got calls—but one thing about depression is you can't think your way through it. You can't. You have to feel your way through depression. A lot of us want to try to just think our way out of that box, but it does require slowing down and actually allowing yourself to feel.

Brian Perez: And would you say it's also better to feel? Because if that Pandora's box does get opened, it can happen when you least expect it. It could happen in the company of people, in the middle of the grocery store, where all of a sudden a song that you hear or whatever just reminds you of something and it just—I mean, it'd be better to call into New Life LIVE.

We get people who call into the show here and we just want to hand them a tissue through the radio because we just hear their sadness, their depression. So call in today. We've got a webinar coming up for you next week, so we highly encourage you to sign up for it if you've been feeling overwhelmed or exhausted or stuck in a low place. Please know, as you just heard, you're not alone. Help is available.

This faith-based webinar is happening next week, January 15th. It's at 7:00 PM Central time and Jackie is going to be hosting it. It's called Break Free from Depression, Reclaim Your Life. It's 90 minutes of real hope, including 60 minutes of Jackie and 30 minutes of Q&A. You can ask your questions and get some clarity. To learn more and to receive a free tip sheet on depression, text the word WEBINAR to 28950.

All right, let's go to the phones now. 1-800-229-3000 is our number. To Washington, DC we go. Hi, what's your name?

Mary: Oh, hi. Mary.

Brian Perez: Mary, hi there. Welcome to New Life LIVE.

Mary: Hello. Hey, I wanted to say happy birthday to Jackie. I think she's wonderful. I'm happy every time I see her.

Jackie Mack Harris: Thank you. Thank you so much.

Brian Perez: We couldn't agree more, Mary.

Mary: Yes. Well, my question is about fear. I want to follow biblical principles and luckily yesterday I was able to, because my AA sponsor reminded me that we are peaceful people. But I needed to show up to a public event yesterday and I was very outnumbered and I was scared.

I was happy that I showed up and then I mentioned a name that wasn't being mentioned of a person that suffered very much and I got some backlash from folks. At one point, this big man was pursuing me as I left the area. Luckily someone, one of the minority people on my side of the street and the issue, he got in between that big man and me and then he escorted me safely to my bus stop when I left the event.

I'm just struggling with the idea of trying to do the right thing and not being afraid. I'm kind of immature with responding like in an adult way or responding at all to injustices or something like that. But I want to do it. It's really important to me to stand up for what I believe is the right thing. Fairness and justice and love are what I want to stand up for.

Jackie Mack Harris: Well, thank you for being a warrior for justice and wanting to stand up for it, and for your courage. You did it afraid. Sometimes it's just scary. Whatever the thing is, whether you're going to speak somewhere or you are standing in the gap, being an ally, confronting injustice, confronting bad actors—it can be really scary. I am grateful that there was someone there to stand with you and to make sure that you got to your bus stop safely.

Sherry Denham-Kepper: Yeah, you know, Mary, I love your heart. There's actually something called an intimate justice scale. You can Google it: Intimate Justice Scale. Now what is that? It's a scale that was actually developed years ago and interestingly, it can be attached to sexual violation—not always, but it can be attached to that where you may have grown up with some kind of a violating situation that happened that wasn't spoken. It wasn't talked about. You didn't get represented. Does any of that make sense to you? If you float back when you go back earlier in life?

Mary: Oh yes. Oh yes. My parents did not protect me in a situation with a neighbor. But also, I think earlier than that, there was kind of like physical and verbal improprieties along a sexual line within my home.

Sherry Denham-Kepper: Okay, okay. Bless your sweetheart. All right. So you're loved right now in the room. I just want you to know. Our hearts are opened really big to you. So as a trauma survivor and as a survivor that not only had a violation from a neighbor and then your parents didn't protect you and there were verbal and other types of sexualized violations—all that stuff sits inside of us.

Kind of like a Coke bottle that's been shook up without the top being taken off. In my office, I actually have a Coke bottle that I have and sometimes I'll pull it out and I'll shake it up and I'll ask people what would happen if I was to take this top off. And they're like, "It'll get really messy in here."

But that's how it feels inside. There's like a buzz. And so when there is an injustice, what happens is we have a hard time deciphering through: "Should I say something in this environment or should I not?" And it can actually kind of cause us—because we've not really dealt with that earlier trauma and pain—it can cause us to be somewhat of a verbal vigilante.

Like, "I'm here and I want to call this out," which as Jackie said, it's good and brave. And at the same time, it can set us up to be in social environments where there's the reenactment. And this time, thank God that you had this person protect you. They came alongside of you, they saw you, and they escorted you. Now that was redemptive. It was corrective. God saying, "Mary, I see you, sweet one. What you did was brave. I've got you." But I want to talk about maybe doing the deeper work of your heart because there's some places in there that need to be cared for.

Jackie Mack Harris: Mary, I was listening to what Dr. Sherry was saying and it made me think of other people who I know who feel the need to intercede or to call out behaviors. There is a reason for that, right? There's history in which you felt not protected, where there was injustices. As a young person, there wasn't anything you could do about it. You couldn't say anything.

And now you've become an adult and you want to advocate for others and so you want to stand up for injustice. You're being brave by doing it and even doing it afraid. But I wonder if sometimes fear, being an emotion, is a signal. And so I wonder if you ever have times where you feel afraid and you find it's appropriate to not go because maybe the fear is telling you, "This is probably not the best idea." Can you decipher between when fear is saying, "Stop, don't do it," and when fear is saying, "Let's just be brave and go and do it anyway"?

Mary: Sometimes. Yesterday I was warned about the people on the other side of the issue. I was warned twice. But I thought it was essential to say what I said and try to get away from the big angry guy.

Jackie Mack Harris: Yeah, and you were on a bus. So it wasn't like you could jump in your car and get away. So that was even more risky. So we're really just so grateful that it all worked out and you spoke your heart and had a protector there. But for people who maybe don't have that, sometimes especially today, people are not necessarily doing well in some situations.

And so we want to be careful and be mindful and pick our battles. Because if we don't know whether or not this person is going to act out, we don't want to put ourselves in unsafe situations. So just be mindful. Pay attention to the warning signs.

Sherry Denham-Kepper: Mary, thinking back to being young—how old were you when that neighbor situation, when you were somehow violated by that neighbor, how old were you?

Mary: The neighbor situation was much later in life. I was like 11 or 12.

Sherry Denham-Kepper: Okay, but you were a budding adolescent, right? That's such a tender, tender age. You know how adolescents go through a phase where they actually can talk back to people, like they have a voice? I'm not sure if you had one or not at that age.

Mary: No.

Sherry Denham-Kepper: Okay. But if we were to give you a voice right now, what would you want to tell your mom and dad? I want you to be honest with them right now. What would you tell them about how they didn't protect you? What would you have wanted to say to them?

Mary: I would have wanted to say, "I understand, Mom, why you hesitated, but I'm angry and it really hurt me and it really damaged me." And I think my mom had a similar growing up experience because of some inconsistencies I've seen over the years. My mom is resting at peace now, but yeah, it's with me. It's going to stay with me, I guess. It is a big deal.

Jackie Mack Harris: Mary, I want to kind of step into Mom's shoes for a moment and let you know that I believe if she were able to hear you say that, that she would want you to know that she's sorry she couldn't have been there and done more. And she's sorry she didn't know then what she knows now. And as she sees that that hurt you, she's just grateful that you feel like you can share that now and you have a voice now.

Mary: I know that she loved me.

Jackie Mack Harris: And that she loves you. Yeah.

Mary: Yeah. She was a great mom in every other sense. I'm so grateful for her.

Sherry Denham-Kepper: So this is what I want you to do. I want you to stay on the line and we're going to connect you to one of our New Life counselors in your area because this is what I want you to unpack. I want you to unpack the anger and the hurt. Because sometimes we let our parents off the hook. We're like, "I understand they had their issues." But until we actually go deeper and give ourselves the voice to talk about how that hurt you, and without protecting them even though she's not here anymore—you're not in trouble. People often feel like if I talk smack about my mom or dad now, I don't know, I'm doing wrong. I feel guilty. But that's part of our healing: to be able to speak truth to power in love. And you can do that, Mary.

Brian Perez: Mary, thank you so much for calling in today to New Life LIVE. And yeah, stay on hold and we'll put you in touch with a counselor in your area there in Washington, DC. We've got Doctors Jackie Mack Harris and Sherry Denham-Kepper here for two hours.

Call in and tell us what you're going through, what triggers you're dealing with. Whatever it is, we can help you here today at New Life LIVE. And if you're watching us on Facebook or YouTube right now, thanks for watching. You're welcome to call in too.

As I mentioned just a few minutes ago, you can also leave us a voicemail or send us an email. And if you go to our website, newlife.com/radio, that's the page that will show you how to get in contact with us. So we're going to listen to one of those voicemails right now and see what Jackie and Sherry have to say to this caller.

David: Hi, my name is David. I'm calling to seek advice as to whether I should help out with my daughter and my son-in-law's marriage. I had called in probably 25 years ago dealing with a spouse with BPD. I ended up getting full custody of my children. There was narcissism, paranoia, delusion, disassociation going on with my ex-spouse.

Now my daughter is exhibiting the same traits as her mother, unfortunately. And my son-in-law—although there's been an estrangement because of lack of communication and long-standing divorce issues—my son-in-law has reached out to me asking for help. He's broken. He is basically myself where I was 25 years ago.

And I need to ask if I should be offering advice or offering information or staying out of it completely. I'm getting different counsel from different people with various answers. How much do I help? How much do I not help? Do I help at all? Do I definitely help? I have lots of information for my son-in-law as far as BPD, PAS, HAP, disassociation, PTSD that my daughter's probably been experiencing from the high-conflict divorce and the BPD mother that she had who is still alive. Looking for some godly counsel. Appreciate your help.

Jackie Mack Harris: Well, that's a hard place to be. I wonder if David is in therapy himself and I wonder how his son-in-law calling him up is bringing all of his stuff up. I also, as a parent, I hear the, "I want to help my son-in-law," but this is my daughter. And I'm sure that what he is thinking he will need to tell his son-in-law could end their marriage. "This is what I did. This is what I experienced."

And so I think it's a hard thing to have someone else tell you if you should do or not. And so it's something I would work through in counseling because I would want to weigh my "why." What am I doing? What am I sharing? And then also, maybe the help is in helping the son-in-law get counseling. Maybe you don't help with giving advice, but you help by saying, "Hey, maybe try Intimacy in Marriage."

And then he's surrounded by professionals who can then guide him. By inviting him to try therapy, individual therapy, and then that therapist can help him walk through what he needs to do so that way Dad is being there and being supportive and not saying, "Well, I can't help you" and washing his hands of it. But he's saying, "I don't want to give any advice because it's not my profession. I want to stay in the father role, so I'm here, I'm a voice, I'll listen, but let's see if we can find you some professional help."

Sherry Denham-Kepper: Oh, I love that. You almost took my words out of my mouth, Jackie. I was sitting here in the daughter's position. I was wondering what she would feel if you, David, were to talk to her husband and innocently—and that's why you're calling us saying, "Give me some wisdom."

So we're giving you some wisdom. Because you could have innocently responded to him very quickly and given him the laundry list of pathology like you did with us. And in doing so, like that being disseminated, you can't take it back. But then kind of in a way putting your daughter in a box.

And so now your son-in-law has got some very strong feelings about some pathological words or very strong diagnostic words where he isn't having to sort out what's going on in their marriage. And it's true. You can have a borderline mom or dad for that matter, but you can have somebody who is in that category and because of all the chaos that is a part of their internal world because of untreated trauma—borderline personality disorder is untreated trauma that flows into a family system around attachments.

And so there's triangulation, there's sleight of hand, there's fear of abandonment, there's all kinds of anxiety. And so you can have a kid that grows up in that environment and takes on that anxiety and also has some fears of abandonment. But to know, if I was your daughter, to know that you would have put me in the same box that you put Mom in, it could blow up our relationship—you and hers—in a way that who knows if that could be repairable.

So empowering him, your son-in-law, in maybe paying for some sessions. You want to love them? Love them financially by saying, "Let me gift you guys with X amount of dollars to get into some help" so that they've got a third party that is not you.

Jackie Mack Harris: It's such a tough question. I'm a mother-in-law as well and if my sons-in-law call me with questions, I can answer the questions. But really all I can offer is, "Man, that's really hard. Have you talked to your couples therapist about that?"

But I can be Mom and be there and be loving and available with an ear for all four of them. But that's really all I can offer because even as we were raising our kids, we didn't want to be put in the middle of things or we didn't want to be played on either side. So we'd always say, "Did you ask your father?"

We needed the kid to get both perspectives. And so I try to do that same thing. "Here's what I have. Maybe talk to Dad and see what his thought is." But really we're just providing comfort because we can't fix what's happening inside of them. I won't intentionally do therapy. I was going to say I won't do therapy, but then I heard my kids say, "Can I have Mom Mom and not therapist Mom?" Oh, I guess sometimes it does slip out.

But we want to be able to be there for both of them and I love what you said because I would be devastated. I think I would be devastated if I learned that my mom or dad said those things about me to my partner without talking to me. So just having the conversation, being available for both of them just for them to vent maybe and then guiding them towards some help I think is really an important thing for them to do. And there may need to be some family therapy for Dad and daughter. She might have some things that she still needs worked out and so does he. So maybe they could work some of that out together.

Sherry Denham-Kepper: You know what's so good about that? I think about Mary's call where she felt unprotected. That's how we started the show today. And I imagine, David, that your daughter has felt unprotected by you. Now you might go, "What are you talking about? I was just trying to keep my own nose above water." But again, with someone with borderline personality disorder, because of their untreated trauma and the triangulation and the chaos, kids can get caught in the crossfire and it might have felt lethal for you to protect your daughter from an emotionally charged situation. She might have felt missed. And so you're right. She might have some things that need repair with you. And that might be a beautiful way for you to step in with her and not to go back and pathologize her mom, but to just say, "How did you feel? Did you feel safe or unsafe with me?"

Brian Perez: David, thank you so much for leaving us a voicemail. You can do the same thing. All the instructions are at newlife.com/radio. You can also send us an email that way, but we prefer to speak with you. So call in to 1-800-229-3000. That's the number that we're going to be at for the rest of this hour and all of next. We've got licensed marriage and family therapist Dr. Sherry Denham-Kepper here and licensed marriage and family therapist Dr. Jackie Mack Harris.

I mentioned just a few minutes ago you can also leave us a voicemail or send us an email and you can get the instructions on how to do that on newlife.com/radio. So I'm going to read one of those emails now and see what Sherry and Jackie think. Catherine sent this in: "I can't let go of feeling it was my fault that my son died by suicide. What else can I do? My 22-year-old son committed suicide in 2011. I've had depression for 40 years. Sometimes my meds worked, sometimes they didn't. I live daily with the realization that I gave him depression genetically. I've had many hours of counseling, but I still feel like it's my fault. So now I just live with it until Jesus calls me home. I have depression, anxiety, schizophrenia, and I'm bipolar. To me it's easy to see that he caught it from me. What do you guys say to Catherine?"

Jackie Mack Harris: Catherine, DNA is interesting, isn't it? And so what if the possibility is that it was inherited because it's encoded in your DNA and you've decided that you'll have to live with that? Can you forgive yourself? If you're choosing the belief that this is something that he had because I had it, is there room for forgiveness?

Is there room for grace and mercy for yourself? And if it was passed down to him, I wonder if it was passed down to you. What was your childhood like? Did your mom or dad have depression or any of those other mental health challenges? Our DNA is a historical record and so everything just gets passed down, what's coded in our DNA is there.

But it isn't always expressed. There's a thing called epigenetics. When something is coded in our DNA—say for instance, schizophrenia—my biological father was schizophrenic and he died by suicide. So it's coded in my DNA to have mental illness, to have schizophrenia, to lean towards suicidality. But often it doesn't get expressed because something has to—a key has to come into contact with that coding.

And so a virus, trauma—something happens and then it's unlocked. And so it's very possible that while yes, it was coded in his DNA, it wasn't actually something you did or said that caused his depression. However, it's coded in his DNA. And so I go back to what I said at the beginning: grace. Can you forgive yourself for being a person who carries depression in their story and for the fact that that impacted your son? Because all of us as parents have to deal with what we left to our children.

My children are going to have to deal with anxiety and ADHD and who knows what else. And so what I do is I love them. I love them through it. We talk about it. What they see in me they have permission to speak on so that they are learning and growing individually in how to navigate and manage their anxiety and ADHD on their own for them, for their life, for their bodies. But we just don't close the door to the conversation. And I have had to be okay with the fact that it's coded in our DNA, it's in our story, but that doesn't dictate how we live our life. There are so many other factors. And so, Catherine, I just hope that you're able to find grace for yourself and forgiveness for yourself as you've settled on this idea and this belief that it was because of you that he had the depression that led to suicide.

Sherry Denham-Kepper: I didn't know that about you, Dr. Jackie. About your epigenetics with that. I too come from a family where there's severe mental illness. When I was in the womb of my mom, my grandfather killed himself. So there was suicide when she was pregnant with me. I have three uncles: there was jail time, child molestation, arson, and murder. This is coming down my mom's side of the family. So that's a lot of mental illness.

There was addictions, alcoholism. My brother five years ago, Christmas actually, committed suicide. And that was such a heartache, to have that happen like this is your son and it was my brother. So it's very close to home. Even though I was in my mom's womb, this was my brother, time with him.

And I had to wrestle through my own feelings around what I could have done or didn't do. I mean, I'm a therapist. How can a therapist miss her brother's suicidality? So it would be easy for me to take on the responsibility for that. And I have a niece who is depressed—my brother's daughter.

So I can see the genetics. But let me say this, and you might not be able to absorb it, Catherine. While you have the genes and the DNA just like Dr. Jackie and I have talked about, you are not responsible for somebody's choice on whether they took their life or not. That is an individual decision that everybody gets to make. And I had to release myself from that debt, from that blame, from taking that on because that would be lethal for me. Now if I was there with my brother and I was the one that killed him, okay. But mental illness does not equal responsibility of why someone takes their life.

Jackie Mack Harris: I agree. Can you explain why is it that, like in your case Sherry, where you were in the womb when this happened—so you didn't see this, you didn't know none of that happened—so how did it affect you? Or your mom's as she was going through carrying you in her womb, how did that affect you?

Sherry Denham-Kepper: They've now done studies where they look at even in utero how anxiety can be passed into that little growing baby because of what happens in a mom's life while she's carrying you.

Jackie Mack Harris: Even to the egg and the material used to create an embryo is in the bodies of the babies. And so when you're in your mother's womb, whatever is happening is happening to you, too. And whatever has happened is coded in the DNA and we just are passing that down generation after generation. And so we're finding that like people who were a part of the tragedy and horrors of Auschwitz or Armenian genocide—those things are passed down.

We started to see medical problems in three generations. In four generations we started to see psychological problems from people who were in their mom's belly when they escaped or were born from their father decades after he had been hidden somewhere. And so it stays with us.

Sherry Denham-Kepper: So even though I have a core of anxiety and it makes sense why I got it, I'm still responsible to manage it and heal and do my work.

Brian Perez: You know, so often we tell pregnant women "stay away from drinking" and everything, but if there's anxiety going on, call us. We want to talk to you today. Thanks so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to newlife.com to find out more information. And thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing and we're so glad that you're here.