New Life LIVE

New Life: Welcome to the New Life Live podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God’s word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let’s go to today’s episode.

Brian Perez: We made it to the weekend. Hi friends, hope you have a blessed weekend in case I forget to tell you that at the end of the show. Welcome to New Life Live where you bring us your most challenging circumstances and we address them with compassion, biblical wisdom, and clinical insights. By we, I mean clinical psychologist Dr. Alice Benton and Dr. Sherry Denham-Kepper, who is a doctor of marriage and family therapy. I’m Brian, by the way. Nice to be with you today. Dr. Sherry, what are you thinking?

Dr. Sherry Denham-Kepper: I was thinking about a concept that actually already has a name to it. It’s called betrayal blindness. It’s a concept by Dr. Jennifer Freyd. She wrote a book called *Blind to Betrayal*. The tagline is "While we’re fooling ourselves, we’re not being fooled."

Basically, it’s when something happens that harms you in the area of deception, hurt, or betrayal, and you, as a coping strategy, keep the secret from yourself. You were on a show together recently and you mentioned Dr. Alice’s concept of turning a blind eye. The weird thing is that happens inside. You may think you are just not going to look, but actually, there’s an emotional form of denial. It’s not wanting to deal with it, not wanting to look, and not wanting to have to experience the ramifications. If you really did see that and let that land, your life is going to change somehow.

I went through this with Connor in my marriage. He was a sex addict and there was pornography that started in, which I think pornography is the gateway drug into all kinds of acting out in infidelity. I would ask him. I would say, "Hey, how are you doing?" There was this inside wink-wink, "How are you doing?" which didn’t really ask anything. It’s so different than asking, "When is the last time that you’ve looked at pornography?"

That is owning my words. That’s being very direct. That’s causing somebody to either be truthful with you when you ask that, or it’s going to force a lie. Either way, you’re owning your reality and you’re not knowingly or unknowingly turning a blind eye. Because I was a pastor’s wife, it meant a lot. It would have meant us having to do something with the church, our friends, and the staff that would come into our house. We prayed together. We were doing life spiritually with a lot of other people that were on our team. So betrayal blindness worked for me for about four years until I ended up becoming depressed.

It was a clinical depression. It’s like my body started saying, "There’s something going on here that you’re not looking at that you need to deal with." That was my wake-up call. That reality is what woke me up, my depression, and I started to tell some of the people on staff and a pastor that worked there. That started a whole bunch of dominoes. Again, betrayal blindness is a secret we keep from ourselves so we don’t have to deal with the reality of the harm that’s hurting us.

Brian Perez: If you’ve been betrayed, whether you’re a man or a woman, we’ve got a webinar coming up next month. I’ll tell you more about it a little later, or you can just go to our website right now at newlife.com and find out all about it. To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today’s program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live. Let’s go right to the phones here as Renee, who is in Washington D.C., is listening to us on Sirius XM channel 131. Hi Renee, welcome to New Life Live.

Renee: Hello. How is everybody doing? I am calling because I’ve decided that it’s time for me to leave. I don’t know about divorce or anything like that, but I’ve talked to a few people. Just listening to one of your previous callers, I get bits and pieces of my answer and then bits and pieces of information from you guys, but nothing has really come up with this particular one that I’ve heard. I do listen to you guys, so thank you very much.

This is my second marriage. I’ve been married for almost 30-some years. My first marriage was physically abusive. With this particular marriage, I went into it as if to say, "This is going to be the one, my friend, my soulmate, my everything." We can do things together and build together. But we have not been like that. We’re like roommates, and we’ve been like roommates for the past 20-plus years.

We went to counseling. At the time that I really felt that there was something, I would ask him what it was and what was going on. He would tell me it’s his fault, not my fault. I would ask if I said something or what I was doing. Periodically over the years, it would be more like I would come fussing, arguing, or crying. No matter what I did, it did not bring any kind of reaction. He just looked at me and didn’t say anything.

When I finally decided that we needed counseling, of course, that was during the pandemic. I had to be home from work. I just said I can’t do this. Work seemed to give me an outlet, but then once I was home during the pandemic, I just couldn't do it. We ended up going to three different counselors, even though he felt that he didn't need a counselor. But I knew I needed to do something. There’s no hand-holding, no encouragement, and no, "Let’s get it together." The trash gets taken out, the grass gets cut, the lawnmower gets fixed, but there’s no talk of us.

Dr. Alice Benton: It’s been a very cold and lonely 20-plus years. Through the counselors, did you ever find out what it meant that it’s his fault? Was there pornography, a medical issue, or substance use?

Renee: For all three of them, they would ask him what it was, and he said he didn’t want to talk about it. He was very short in his conversations. All of them ended up saying to him, "Do you know that she went through physical abuse, but do you understand that she is now going through mental abuse? You can’t see the bruises, the scratch marks, or the pain as she goes through, but there’s pain in her heart and her mind." He wouldn't say anything. He just kept saying that he didn’t want to talk about it.

Now I’m at the point where I’ve got to get out of here. I have two older grown children from the first marriage and I have one grown daughter from our marriage.

Dr. Alice Benton: Renee, I wonder when you bring up to him, "I’ve reached my limit and I need to leave or divorce," how does he respond to that? I imagine he’s still just shut down and might act like he doesn’t care on the surface. Is that right?

Renee: Each time that I’ve addressed it, he said, "Well, you do what you have to do." That’s his answer.

Dr. Alice Benton: Have you ever left before for a purposeful separation, a therapeutic separation?

Renee: No, even though one of the counselors said, "You need to leave for maybe just a couple of months. Not a divorce, not even a legal separation, but get away and give him a wake-up call just to see what would happen." I never did.

Dr. Alice Benton: What stops you from doing that?

Renee: I guess being able to pick up and pack. We’re both very active in our church. It’s small. The ministry that I do, I’d have to pack up so many things. It’s just a lot and having to answer to people. I’m afraid to let someone know. Even though some people do know, I’ve had friends and family that know from the beginning for the past 20 years and they all go, "I don’t know how you’re doing this. How are you staying in a house with someone that is not trying to nurture you?" I’ve even given scriptures. He knows the scriptures, love your wife, love your husband. He knows all of that. He is also a church school teacher.

Brian Perez: So in the small church community, it sounds like she’s saying she doesn’t want the whole congregation to know what’s going on and that’s keeping her in her mess.

Dr. Sherry Denham-Kepper: What’s the age of those students that he’s a teacher for?

Renee: Hello, I’m here. He’s a Sunday school teacher. He’s an adult teacher. He teaches other adults.

Dr. Sherry Denham-Kepper: The Bible is really clear about people being in church leadership when they’re not managing their own households. You know that passage, right?

Renee: I do. I’ve told him that. How do you teach someone?

Dr. Sherry Denham-Kepper: This is the challenge. He’s holding you hostage emotionally, psychologically, relationally, and sexually. Remember we started the show today with betrayal blindness? Girl, she’s answering my question over there. You are a sister of mine because I’m just rewinding the tape. You felt the big chip 20 years ago. You were 50.

It’s weird how we can, at 50 years old, have a lot of life in front of us and still have a lot of life in front of us at 70. But 50, you kind of are at this place where you’re like, "All right, I still got a lot of energy in me and I’m not going to give up." But you have unknowingly, because of betrayal blindness, protected him from his consequences.

Somebody said this, "Silence is violence." I want you to write that down. What he’s done is he’s told you it’s his fault. But what are you talking about? What have you done that would create a problem? You’ve had three very good counselors try to crack the code for him. All that he has to do is very simple. He’s silent. Silence is violence. It’s psychological violence for you.

There is a whole dark hole that this man has and he’s covering it up. He’s walking around teaching other adults at church. If God were to lance him open like he did Ananias and Sapphira, I have a feeling that your husband would probably fall to the ground. That’s a pretty strong judgment. Why am I being that bold with you? Because you can’t live for over two decades without offering affection and not have some other secret basement that has bad stuff in there.

Men have sexual energy. They do, Brian. Men have that, whether it’s holding a hand, whether it’s being aroused, whether it’s being around. I’ve sat with couples where there’s been decades of shutdown and I’ve looked at the husband and I said, "Men have sexual energy. I want to know where that’s going." Because your wife is starving over here and she’s been starving for a couple of decades. They don’t like it when I probe, but this is the thing, I’m right. Then we guide them in this thing called a therapeutic full disclosure and polygraph. You know what happens? I find out there’s a lot of bad acting out that’s gone on there.

Right now you could say there’s intimacy anorexia. That’s a term out there and you’re experiencing intimacy deprivation. On the surface as Christians we’re like, "Well, is that grounds for divorce?" He’s put you in a hostage position because he’s not being honest. So I think the hardest thing for you to do is what I had to do with Connor. I had to tell. When people choose to say they don’t want to talk about it, that doesn’t render you powerless. It just means that you have to make choices with somebody who’s choosing to deceive you and not tell you what he’s doing that’s keeping you so disconnected from him. It’s not okay.

Dr. Alice Benton: Renee, I’d suggest having a conversation like this with your husband. "I wish we could repair our marriage, but you haven’t been willing to open up and I’m at the end of my rope. I need to protect my heart from your withdrawal, so I’m going to be taking space away from you. If you decide you’re willing to really work on us, start individual therapy and have your therapist give me feedback after you’ve had a good number of sessions."

Then, Renee, you’ll strategically decide how to scaffold boundaries. It may start with emotional distance from him, sleeping in a different room, going to stay somewhere else, or being polite but not having ongoing conversation with him. You have all these reasons why it’s really hard for you to leave the house, so I would try scaffolding boundaries first under the guidance of a skilled therapist. We can connect you with someone in our network because sometimes a man like this does start to change when he starts to lose you. But he’s got to lose you in order for us to see if that would help.

Brian Perez: Even though he told her, when she said "I’m going to walk away or divorce," he was like, "Do what you have to do."

Dr. Sherry Denham-Kepper: He’s in the victim state. He just went to "victim," "do what you’re going to do." He’s manipulating you. It’s putting the responsibility on you, which we always have 100% responsibility, but he’s like, "Okay, I’m going to be a victim even though I am doing something. I don’t want to talk about it." That’s a victim. He’s not taking responsibility for himself. Elleryn, I think, is the woman you’re talking about. I hope you listened to that show, but Elleryn, she gave you hope because that woman decided that she didn’t want to be held hostage anymore.

Brian Perez: And the thing about Elleryn when she called on Wednesday’s show, she was already divorced and uncoupled. Renee is just trying to figure out if that is what she needs to do. We’ll be back on New Life Live.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today’s program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live. Renee, if you’re still on hold, stay on hold because we’re going to connect you with a counselor through the New Life Network. It would be so good if you and your husband could attend the intimacy and marriage intensive that’s coming up in just a few weeks, two weeks from now. Today is the last day to sign up for the early bird discount and we think that even you could benefit from this. You and your husband, despite everything you’ve gone through in the last 20 of your 30 years married, there is still hope.

Dr. Alice Benton: Something that happens in those groups is that other men show what confession can look like and how healing it can be. That modeling can sometimes break through to a man like your husband, Renee.

Dr. Sherry Denham-Kepper: I know this changes direction a little bit, but since she’s still here, can we just ask her what she thinks since we both said a lot?

Renee: Yes, I’m still here. I wrote down "Silence is violence," the dependency, and betrayal blindness. I’ve written on a small little piece of paper that I’ve been writing on. One thing that I did do, and this was just on this past Friday, was another conversation that I had again. I said, "We’ve done this, we’ve done this," and I’ve gone through the whole thing. That was when he still said, "Do what you have to do." I had to cry while I was on hold, but I am feeling strengthened. I do want to be connected to the counselor because I’m not sure if he’s going to say, "Okay, well, let’s see if we can try again." I don’t think he’s going to do that because out of the three counselors that we had, he still refused. He doesn’t want to go. He’s definitely not going to go to a counselor.

Dr. Alice Benton: The big difference may be if he loses you at some level. That might change his stance and that’s what you need to see. I’m so hesitant to recommend divorce because it’s always disruptive. Sometimes it’s the lesser of the two evils that you’re facing, but I’d highly recommend trying the different levels of separation first before going towards a divorce. I’m pretty literal on the Bible’s stance on those two situations where divorce is permissible. We don’t know whether or not they apply to your situation, so proceed with caution.

Dr. Sherry Denham-Kepper: I think that’s why there’s something called a legal separation. A legal separation is not a divorce. It’s basically a hard line in the sand that says, "I’m very serious. Yes, there’s going to be some financial ramifications here." Sometimes it takes that. You start with the boundaries like Alice layered in, but eventually, like that, it might just disrupt the applecart enough so that you can clearly see what he’s willing to do or not do. We’re praying for you. I’m glad there were some tears. I’m glad we came back to you so we could hug your heart post-your tears. We’re with you. We’re for you.

Brian Perez: Keep Renee in your prayers, everyone. Let’s talk to Gil, who is in Long Island, New York, and he listens to us with Alexa. Thank you so much for calling in today, Gil. How can we help you?

Gil: Well, I’m blind and visually impaired and I also suffer from ringing in my ears for a long time. As a result of that, I learned to read the Bible in Braille in '91 and I got saved in '92. I play the piano. I live in a nursing home right now for the past couple of years. I like the word that you used not too long ago, "lifegiver," and I want to be a lifegiver. I love that. I’m going to use that a lot now. It’s so encouraging. Like the Bible says, "Let us encourage one another and all the more as you see the day approaching" as we read Hebrews 10:25. I don’t want to be left in a shelf. How can I be used of the Lord to reach people here in the nursing home with the gospel? Most people are not interested in the Bible and very few are. How can I be a lifegiver?

Dr. Sherry Denham-Kepper: Do you play hymns?

Gil: Yeah, I play my favorite, "God Is So Good." I taught myself by ear.

Dr. Sherry Denham-Kepper: Do you know what’s crazy, Gil? My mom had a spinal cord injury, so she is in a wheelchair. We can’t lift her, so she went into assisted living. You know what I notice about everybody’s brains? They fire up when they hear music that they recognize. I honestly, Gil, think that if you were to go in and you were to play these hymns, you know what’s going to happen? People are going to start singing and worshipping because their brains remember the hymns, so many of them. I would have you start with your talent that you already have and see if the person who’s there, the director in charge of activities, would allow you, as one of the folks there, to just do a 30-minute or 45-minute time during the day.

Gil: Yeah, I’ve done that sometimes. They have me do that sometimes.

Dr. Sherry Denham-Kepper: That is sharing the word. But what doesn’t seem enough about that?

Gil: Well, I just want to make a difference in people’s lives not only for time but also for eternity. I want to get people saved, born again, filled with the Spirit of God. I don’t want to be in a shelf. I really want to be used of God because Jeremiah 29:11 says, "For I know the plans that I have for you declares the Lord, plans to prosper you, not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

Brian Perez: And we’re going to talk to you in the future in just a couple of minutes here on New Life Live, but we’ve got to take a break right now. Stay on hold, Gil. Today’s podcast is brought to you by Club New Life supporters who give a monthly donation because they want to continue to offer help and hope in these very, very difficult places. To find out more about Club New Life, you can go to our website newlife.com or call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now if you’re new to us, we drop an episode every weekday. We would love it if you would rate or write a review, which helps more people discover help and hope and helps us share wisdom with as many people as possible. Now let’s listen to our counselors as they help people walk through life’s hardest places.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today’s program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live. Let’s go back to Gil who’s in Long Island. He wants to know how to be a lifegiver in this nursing facility that he’s in. He knew who to call, New Life, because we’re all about giving life, new life. So what else would you guys recommend to Gil?

Dr. Alice Benton: Gil, I’m curious. Who told you you were put on a shelf, or at what points in your life did you feel like you were?

Gil: I don’t know, I remember my pastor saying that years ago and it frightened me a little bit, but I know he wasn’t directing it to me. So I just said I hope I never end up in a shelf. I just hope that God will use me as a springboard or an opportunity for sharing the good news of the gospel through music or through memorizing scripture.

Dr. Alice Benton: What was one of the most difficult times in your life when you weren’t able to be involved in an activity you wanted to be a part of? Maybe because of blindness or whatever other reason held you back from it?

Gil: Basically when they have games like Bingo and stuff like that. Usually they have Braille sometimes, but they didn’t have it because I didn’t come on time exactly. So I remember feeling left out even though I stayed in there for a while and stuff like that. I just felt like I wasn’t producing fruit talking to people about God because a lot of people are not interested per se. But another song that I love to play that I taught myself how to play is "Silent Night." That’s a song that’s familiar to some of the people even though it’s not Christmas. I celebrate Christmas 365 days a year. King David says in Psalm 119:71, "It was good for me that I have been afflicted that I might learn your decrees." If it wasn’t for the ringing in my ears, I wouldn't be reading the Bible or interested in God’s word and music and all of that. Even though I’m suffering, I’m thankful to the Lord that I have a gift that I can use to touch people’s lives. I love that word lifegiver.

Dr. Alice Benton: Gil, it’s palpable that you want to help and serve. You’re putting a smile on my face as I’m listening to you and I think you have that effect on a lot of people. But I know that when you’re trying to save them, save their souls, and they reject it, then it can feel like I’m not producing enough fruit here. So I want to recommend that you try three different things. All these three things are for the purpose of evangelizing, but they don’t look like it on the surface.

One is to get curious about your fellow residents and to ask about their life stories. The second is to share your testimony, which you’ve been doing with us, so I know that comes naturally to you. And the third is to show them God’s love while not yet quoting scripture to them. Which is tricky, but I think that a good knowledge of scripture and that awesome ability you have to quote verses, it can be overwhelming for some people who don't have that full attraction or they don't have their feet in the faith yet. And so I would be cautious not to lead with the great verses you know, but rather lead with listening, lead with showing them your love, and when the time is right, share your testimony and see if with that angle you get a different reaction from people.

Gil: Like it says in James 1:19, "Be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry." So it’s good to be a good listener as well.

Dr. Sherry Denham-Kepper: I love Dr. Alice. Every time I’m on the show with her, she is probably the most practical of all of us. You could take all of us put together and then there’s Alice who gives you real-life steps. Can I add one thing to your list of three to make it a four? I can’t tell you how many tragedy sites I’ve been to where there’s been a flood or there’s been a hurricane and I’ve been out as a responder to assist. People in nursing homes are in a place in their life where everything has changed. There’s so many needs. There’s a lot of loneliness.

The fourth thing I would add would be one thing. I would just ask people, once you’re curious and you find out a little bit about them, even before you share your testimony, ask them, "Can I pray for you?" I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been turned down because it’s rare. People are like, "Well, yeah." Can I pray for you? And then to keep it a simple, loving prayer. Not to go into the four spiritual laws and how to come to know Jesus necessarily, but to start praying for their heart. My dad worked in a nursing home and he began to pray for people and he led people to the Lord, but he entered through love and through praying for them.

This is like little trivia. I was looking at the clock. I was in seminary and I decided to do this thing while I was taking a class, I think it was on service. I decided to go into a home, assisted living home, and I decided to wash people’s feet. That’s all I did. I brought this little thing. I had to check with the people at the front to make sure they’d let you do this these days, but I lived in Whittier, California and I went to a nursing home. I said, "This is what I’d like to do." And they were like, "Why do you want to do this?" I go, "I just want to serve and I want to love people and I’m not sure how to do it, but I just thought if I could just wash their feet."

I had a line of people. They would sign up because they wanted to have their feet washed because they don’t even have people that touch them often. I took their little socks off and I’m telling you, these poor feet, some of them were purple, some of them were... and I couldn't do cutting their nails and all that. They wouldn't let me do any of that. But I put some really beautiful, nice-smelling soap in the water so the room was fragrant and I just started with warm water washing their feet and then I had to sanitize everything for the next person. Just touching them and doing it where I had permission, washing their feet, opened up a lot of conversations for me to have. Weird how people, I call it like going through the side door. Instead of going through the front door and bringing the Bible verse, it’s like going through the side door and doing the Bible verse.

Brian Perez: Gil, I also want to encourage you that you’ve just provided life to everyone listening and watching New Life Live right now because they see you in the situation you’re in, you’re in this assisted living facility, and you want to share life with other people. When we can grow from self-centeredness to other-centered, which is very difficult to do, that God fulfills our desire for contentedness and purpose. We think if I get what I want for me, then I’ll be happy, but it is not true and the famous and the rich tell us that. But it’s the ones who serve like you, Gil, that do feel and can feel those moments of joy and contentedness because that’s really what we were made for.

Thanks for calling in today, Gil, to New Life Live and we’re going to pray for you that the Lord will open doors, side doors even, to help people there in the nursing facility that you are in. God bless you, brother. This is New Life Live. I’m Brian Perez here with Dr. Sherry Denham-Kepper and Alice Benton and your gift to New Life helps carry hope to the hurting, meeting real needs with real help right when it matters most. You’re joining in what God is doing through this ministry when you make a gift of any size. You can give online at newlife.com or by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE or you can text NLM to 28950. Thank you for whatever you can do. Any gift matters.

Brian Perez here with Dr. Alice Benton and Dr. Sherry Denham-Kepper and if you missed the beginning of the show today, good news, we archive all of our episodes on newlife.com, on YouTube, on the New Life app. Sherry started today’s show by talking about something called betrayal blindness. The "From Pain to Peace" webinar is coming up in just a few weeks, February 26th. If you’ve experienced betrayal through a spouse, partner, parent, friend, or someone you deeply trusted, you know it’s one of the deepest wounds a person can experience. It can make you feel confused, angry, numb, stuck.

New Life walks with people through their pain toward real healing. On February 26th, New Life will be hosting a live Zoom webinar called "From Pain to Peace: Healing After Betrayal." It’s hosted by Becky Brown and presented by licensed marriage and family therapist Laura Mangin-McDonald. This faith-based event offers practical guidance, biblical encouragement, and clear next steps for anyone, men or women, who are navigating betrayal. If you’d like more information on this webinar and a free tip sheet on betrayal, you can text the word WEBINAR to 28950.

Here’s a question that was sent in online through newlife.com/radio from CJ in Illinois who writes: "What can I do to stop being affected by profanity? I’m dealing with an aversion to profanity, which affects my daily life. When I go out in public, I use noise-canceling headphones or earbuds to prevent hearing profanity. I struggle with it also from a moral reason since profanity is a sin. I’ve heard of exposure therapy, but I honestly don’t want to force myself to listen to those words. Can I learn to stop responding as I have? My responses are not too extreme, but I’m still terrified. What can I do to help myself to want to work on this? I want to be strong for my future spouse if God wills me to get married." What do you guys say to CJ?

Dr. Alice Benton: Oh, CJ. Hearing that you’re terrified and have to protect your ears when you go out, I’m concerned for the level of anxiety that you live with. And so if I got to work with you, I would dig into the fear and I would ask you what are you worried will happen if you hear profanity? Do you think it’s a sin to hear it? Are you worried for the people that are swearing? What are you afraid will happen to them? Because it sounds like it gets you deregulated. And although I also disagree with profanity and I don't want to be around it, it seems like the possibility of hearing it dictates some things about your life. And so that and the fear of it have a lot of authority and power over you. I would imagine there’s a very significant history. Maybe there was someone in your life who used a lot of profanity, mistreated you, made you feel unsafe in a variety of ways. And so I’d also want to process through related history.

Treatment for anxiety, treatment for the history that’s related to your worries about profanity, I think would help. Exposure therapy is a process of desensitization where you are taught both calming and coping techniques to regulate your body and little by little you face some of the things that you’re afraid of. Usually you start with just imagining the things that you’re afraid of while calming your body down and then you pair it with higher and higher levels of exposure until you can be exposed to your fear and still stay regulated. So it may be helpful, but try these recommendations first.

Dr. Sherry Denham-Kepper: I think this has mostly to do with your brain. Dr. Alice, when you were talking about the anxiety, there’s some people’s brains that their brains not only are in anxiety, but it’s like their racecar anxiety. It’s turned up very high where these brains become uber-focused on one thing that is distressing to them. And so then what happens is your brain requires some type of action or ritual in order to try to combat that anxiety.

I think you may have one of the subtypes of OCD, obsessive-compulsive disorder. I just want to give you some information to probably look into and the subtype is actually called scrupulosity. There’s nothing wrong with you. There is a brain inside of you. You have an amazing heart and you want to be in a relationship. Yet there is a brain inside of you that is turned up really high on issues when it comes to religion or profanity, moral things, right or wrong. And so learning, getting specific treatment from somebody who specializes in OCD and somebody who specifically understands how to treat scrupulosity will probably be a faster track for you.

I’ve got an OCD place near me called Gateway OCD Clinic and I refer a number of people there because they’ve got things called acceptance and commitment therapy. They have a whole array of tools that are used specifically for your brain type. I might be able to drop a pebble in your pond and it might take some months or even years to try to get some headway, but when I refer them out to Gateway, people get on a healthier trajectory much quicker. And so I want to make sure they’re in the best care.

Brian Perez: CJ, thank you for submitting your question to us online at newlife.com/radio. We’ve got a few ways that you can submit your question either as an email or as a voicemail in case you can’t call in when we are here in the studio recording shows. Home school moms, you learned a new word today for your students, scrupulosity. You can use that in your spelling test or your vocab or whatever, see if your kids can use that word in a sentence. It’s spelled S-C-R-U-P-U-L-O-S-I-T-Y. Anyway, thanks for joining us today. We’ll see you at church on Sunday and then we’ll be back with you on Monday here on New Life Live. Dr. Sherry Denham-Kepper and Dr. Alice Benton, always great to be in the studio with you guys. Can’t wait to do it again. We’ll talk to you all on Monday here on New Life Live.

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