New Life LIVE

Guest (Male): Welcome to the New Life Live podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: Hi! Can I help you? Well, I don't know if I can, but I know who can. He's right here in the studio with me. It is Chris Williams, licensed marriage and family therapist, and this is New Life Live. I'm your host, Brian Perez. 1-800-229-3000 is the number to call, and we're going to be in the studio for two hours today. We could only be in the studio for one hour yesterday, but if you tried calling in yesterday and we couldn't put you on, then call right now. 1-800-229-3000 is that number.

Chris, surely by now you're out of confessions, right?

Chris Williams: I was actually struggling to come up with a confession, but as usual, one came to mind. As a human being, I'm going to quote the late great Tim Keller. People are idol-factory machines. One of my things is I love control, and how control and self-protection show up oftentimes is in the form of judgment. I can be a really judgmental person. Everyone, for instance, who drives faster than me on the road is a maniac, and everyone who drives slower than me doesn't know what they're doing.

We can joke, but the judgments can come in these much more nasty or sadistic ways that at the end of the day, they harm us and they harm others. It's not that we don't have sound judgment. It's not that we can't call evil evil or see good and call out where good is good. It's that we don't understand our vast limitations. My little soapbox behind this is that the tree that messed everything up for humanity was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It's just this humble recognition that we as human beings have this very limited understanding of good and evil, and that's why we have scripture. That's why we have God's design, and the laws, and the prophets, and the New Testament.

I also want to take it a step further because there's this verse that really convicts me. It says, "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things." I don't think we consider that enough. This verse is Romans 2:1. It's really a warning that when we remove ourselves from grace, when we move ourselves from self-examination and putting ourselves under our own spotlight, not with condemnation but with sound judgment and grace, we lose our way. We lose our path.

One other thing I want to mention about this verse is that when Paul wrote Romans, when he wrote any of his letters, it didn't have chapter and verse. It was just one continuous letter. I think there is a huge mistake that we make in separating Romans 1 from Romans 2. Romans 1 is this long list of sinful behavior, ways in which we are way outside of God's design. Oftentimes, we as Christians have this temptation to use that to weaponize that list of sins against other people, i.e., use judgment. The irony is the very next verse is, "Therefore you have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you do that, you're condemning yourself."

One of the solutions to this I'm seeking to do today is self-examination and confession, grace, the grace of God. When we clean out ourselves, when we focus on the plank on our own, we are so much better to be a conduit of God's goodness in the world.

Brian Perez: The good news for everyone watching and listening right now is that Chris has confessed that he can be judgmental. So now that it's out of his system, he won't be judgmental when you call in. No judgment today here on New Life Live. We never are judgmental, honestly. We just want to provide you good advice and get you on the path to healing. So call in. We're going to be here for two hours at 1-800-229-3000. I see Holly and Charity coming up and so many more on New Life Live.

Guest (Male): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: Watching someone you love struggle can be overwhelming. So take the first step to help a loved one dealing with addiction, depression, or mental health by calling us right now at 1-800-229-3000. We've got Dr. Jill Hubbard and Chris Williams here for the next two hours, and we can't wait to speak with you. In fact, we're going to start with Holly in Cincinnati, who watches us on YouTube. So let's wave hi to Holly. Thanks for calling in today, Holly.

Holly: Hello, thank you for taking my call. I'm so glad to speak with you. This is a great resource to have. Some context to my question here, it's about healing from spiritual and sexual betrayal. I started experiencing unwanted same-sex attractions in my early 20s. Being a woman of faith, I wanted to commit myself to understanding what I was experiencing and aligning myself with God's design for my sexuality, but was very confused about just how to do that, how to find that support.

I was met with defensiveness when I took it to a counselor that I trusted, and he wouldn't help me know what my options really were. My family and church were not going to be good options either. So I ended up confiding this to a man that I dated. I told him about the attraction, and he said that if he heard me, he wanted to walk with me, would have this relationship with me where I could just get more clarity on what I could be attracted to. I'd never dated a man before, so was that something that was there?

He kept those boundaries for a while, and then he started using my faith, my beliefs, and that isolation to control the relationship, abused me, and was pressuring me into a marriage that I didn't want. When I did get enough autonomy to break off the engagement, then I told my family what had happened, they sided with him and continued to want to support the relationship and give him access back to me and to dismiss the abuse. I've never found another person who's been through that in that specific way, somebody taking advantage of that situation. My main question today is, what does healing from spiritual and sexual abuse in this context look like? What's my roadmap?

Brian Perez: Dr. Jill, start with you.

Jill Hubbard: Holly, thank you for sharing this with us, and I am so sorry that you went through this. I think one of the things is when things happen to us, that is bad enough, but how people around us, how our family react, that causes even more damage to not have them support you and hear your cries for help. It took a lot of courage to break that off. I'm glad that you see the need for help. It is important that you find trusted people like a therapist, like a group, that you can start to share when you feel safe what happened to you, kind of like what you did with us, and are able to connect the knowledge, the thoughts with the heart, and have people sit with you in that as you grieve through it.

You will be able then to look at it in a way that helps you to grow and move on and to be able to put it in its proper perspective. So often when something happens to us like this, then it colors how we see everything in life, and we generalize that, and then no one is safe and that fear of being deceived.

Chris Williams: I think of the greatest commandment: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. Love others as yourself. As Jesus framed all of that, I always refer to that as an earthly trinity. We have a relationship with ourselves, we have a relationship with other people, and obviously, we have a relationship with God. Holly, as you have authentically sought to pursue that in faithfulness, it has been used against you. Even your own struggles in sexuality could create potentially—and I didn't hear this in your story, but I just want to highlight it—a lot of self-shame towards a part of yourself.

Then when other people use it against you or manipulate you or abuse you, that cuts off that ability to trust and enter into authentic loving relationships with others. The fact that you still have a pursuing relationship with God is a minor miracle to me. I think it's just an attribute to the strength of your faith.

Jill Hubbard: Can I add one more thing too? With the same-sex attraction, Holly, I'm thinking as we were talking, and the lack of support from your family. I see with women a lot that I have treated, it comes from a very young place and it's often a mother hunger. So something that went amiss—and we're not here to blame mothers—but something that you were longing for that somehow there was a mis-attunement.

Chris Williams: It's interesting you mention that, Jill, because part of the direction I believe here is healthy redemptive relationship. That is and I mention all three of those because it takes a focus on a redemptive relationship with yourself, understanding and rooting out the shame and rooting out the guilt and seeking to get honest and true and most importantly, loved. Obviously, that being in deep relationship with God.

I really, really want to encourage you to find, discover, pray for, look for healthy people. Especially as you were mentioning, Jill, I was thinking if she could develop a very, very healthy, strong friendship connection non-sexually with another female, it would be fantastic. Like that is so key in the healing.

Jill Hubbard: The longings are not wrong. It's just that somewhere along the line they got sexualized. So the way in which the needs were desiring to be met, that's where it went askew, but the longing itself is not wrong. We have to put it in its proper context.

Chris Williams: If you could experience—the word that we oftentimes use here in the therapeutic world is attachment—but really that just means a strong deep relationship with someone based on health. Again, pursuing that non-sexually with another person, and again, male or female, but I would really go after a female relationship.

Jill Hubbard: Like a mentor, a mother figure, someone like that who keeps those boundaries.

Chris Williams: Absolutely. Then you can work out the other deeper intimate relationships in a safe intimate place, if that makes sense. The not-so-ironic part of this is that when we're working with men in Every Man's Battle, one of the things, one of the main things that we are asking them to enter into again is building non-sexual connection, non-sexual intimacy and relational growth. When we have that foundation, our ability to self-control and control other urges and desires are, God gives us much greater agency over ourselves and the fruit of the spirit. Self-control shows up a lot more when we have foundations of love inside of us.

Brian Perez: Holly, we've got a webinar coming up next month. It's called From Pain to Peace: Healing After Betrayal. It's only $24.99, but we're going to send you a registration just for calling in today to New Life Live. We think you'll highly benefit from this webinar. Betrayal can leave deep wounds: emotionally, relationally, spiritually, as you just told us. So on February 26th, we're doing this live Zoom webinar. It's hosted by Becky Brown, presented by licensed therapist Laura Mangin McDonald. It's a faith-based event that offers practical guidance, biblical encouragement, and clear next steps for anyone navigating betrayal. Anyone else, you can find out more about this at newlife.com or by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE. But Holly, stay on hold and we'll send you a registration.

Now we're going to go to Chicago and speak with Charity, who is also watching us on YouTube. Hi there, Charity. We'll wave to you as well. Thanks for calling 1-800-229-3000. How can we help you?

Charity: To give you a little backstory, I was sexually abused by my father and it was not like worst-case scenario, but there was always this weird sexual energy towards me growing up. My sister has a similar story. This happened when I was about 12 and probably from five to—I can't even remember. Sometimes I almost feel this weirdness today, and I'm 42.

I came out and told the family 10 years ago. My sister, like I said, also had a similar story. During that time, my mom was not very supportive and it was almost like she blamed me. She made comments like, "I can't even look at pictures of you when you're younger," and she said, "I thought we'd be talking about this at Dad's graveside." When we'd have family parties, and at that time my dad was out of my life, she would just sit in the corner and sulk.

I don't know why or how it happened, but my dad somehow became a part of my life again. I do not call him. He's not a father figure to me, but he comes to birthday parties or sporting events for my kids. I just kind of had a really traumatic, like a nervous breakdown. I'm in therapy and I'm bringing up all these wounds again. I'm just at a point where I don't want my dad in my life again, or at least for right now. I just again don't feel like I have support from my mom. My question really is just, my mom is in my life and I just feel like I keep getting re-hurt, or I keep wanting her to protect me or be like, "How are you doing?" and I'm just never going to get that from her. It just re-hurts me. I could cry right now.

Chris Williams: Charity, I'm so sorry because this is incredibly difficult. Inside of all of us is literally the DNA of our parents. There is at a cellular level this desire for our parents, and that's why I think our parent wounds go deeper and are more impactful on us. But we have to understand that the foundation of any relationship that has any chance at closeness starts with safety. Never forget reading Townsend Cloud's book Safe People. It was so illuminating to see what makes a person safe or unsafe. No one is going to be perfect. We know that. But there's measurements here, and if there isn't a recognition and acknowledgment of what is unsafe and actually what is harmful and damaging, then that's going to limit the closeness.

This is going back to the necessity of boundaries. Boundaries are there to protect that which is valuable: your heart, your wellbeing, your safety. The ability to not be sexualized by a parent is really important. There's somehow that where your parents independently have colluded in the harm without recognition, acknowledgment, and a need for safety. I think in that, you have two really hard choices here. One hard choice is what you're experiencing, trying to continue to pursue relationship with them and the harm continuing to happen. I think the other hard choice is grief. That is that the parents that you needed all along is not the ones you got. We're not here to pull the estrangement card at any whim whatsoever. But we are here to say that there are levels of protection and potentially boundaries that create more distance for safety to protect your heart.

Jill Hubbard: Charity, are your parents still married?

Charity: Yes, they are. They still live together.

Jill Hubbard: So your mom, there's such dissonance there for her. She doesn't want it to be true because if she accepts it fully to be true, then what does she do? Then you become the casualty in that. Your mom is really struggling too, and it's almost like you're having to be more of the adult than she is in this incident. I don't know what it taps into for her, but it also makes perfect sense that while you're in therapy, all this would be stirring up again and you would need a little distance.

Brian Perez: We've got to go to break. We are in the studio for the rest of this hour and all of next. 1-800-229-3000 is our number.

Guest (Male): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: Charity, are you still with us?

Charity: Yes.

Jill Hubbard: Charity, I am just wondering if since Dad is still with Mom and you shared with the family, does Dad admit to any of this?

Charity: No, he said he would take it to the grave.

Jill Hubbard: Right. Because if he were willing to at least admit something, there would be—and he'd be willing to enter into a process of reconciliation with you—so that you could repair to a degree. That would be best case scenario. Otherwise, both of your parents are leaving it to you again to be the adult and to have to figure this out and go it alone. Your sister went through the same thing. Are you guys able to support one another?

Charity: Yeah, but she lives in California, away from me and away from Dad. She has small children.

Jill Hubbard: You said your dad comes to sporting events and things. I imagine you've got a lot of boundaries around your kids: Dad's never alone with kids.

Charity: Correct.

Jill Hubbard: Your sister dealt with it by just leaving. You remain. Sometimes—my book Forgiving Our Fathers and Mothers talks about some actually very severe cases, but about parents that almost shouldn't have been parents and then what we have to do in the face of that to get through it. That might be a good one for you to look for.

Chris Williams: I completely agree with that. In there you'll discover that forgiveness does not constitute closeness. It's different than reconciliation. Absolutely. I think that there is a lot of wisdom to be gained in that because your healing and your safety and health are really what's at stake here. That's the one thing that you can control and be responsible for. That's why that forgiveness and boundaries process together is really important.

Jill Hubbard: Chris, what you mentioned about grieving who they are not, exactly, looking at who they are, being realistic about what you can get from them, and then grieving who they are not and to stop hoping for it. To find other people in your life that become family. Absolutely. You don't have to discard them 100%. No, they could still be a part of your life, but you have to define very clearly what part they're going to play and what part they're not going to play.

Brian Perez: Charity, thanks for your phone call today here on New Life Live. Did you know that three of our online New Life courses begin this Thursday, and you can still get in? These courses will help you break free from unhealthy patterns and move toward emotional and spiritual wholeness. They're held for 12 weeks, one hour per week, and are led by a counselor on Zoom, providing small group community for encouragement, connection, and accountability.

One of them is called Take Your Life Back. It's perfect for anyone stuck in guilt, codependency, or unhealthy relationships. Then there's Lose It For Life, which uncovers why you have felt stuck in cycles of dieting or food-related struggles. Healing Is A Choice is for anyone ready to heal and move forward from emotional wounds, trauma, or disappointment. All these courses, like I say, run for 12 weeks, one hour per week, and they begin this Thursday. You can get all the details on our website, newlife.com, or by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE.

Guys, I've been reading Mark Cameron's book Understanding Your Attachment Style. We talk about this all the time, attachment style, here on New Life Live. But the victim, and the part that stuck out to me when I read that this morning when I was reading it is how sometimes victims will try to improve their life because the controller in their relationship is telling them that they need to improve for them, almost. So the victim is trying to—so when we offer these courses, it's so that everyone can be a better person. It's not because we want you to be controlled by the other person who's telling you that you need to improve for them.

Chris Williams: There's a both-and in what we base all of our work on. Better people, better image bearers are better for everybody, ourselves and everyone else included. I heard a participant in Lose It For Life call in a few years ago and she said, "I realized I just didn't engage in a process that lost pounds off of my body or weight off of my body. I lost weight off of my soul that was weighing me down all of these years." It's so much bigger than just diet. It's about opening up a relationship to ourselves, God, others, as I mentioned earlier, in a way that where our relationship with food and our bodies isn't controlling us. Our relationship with God and the agency, so do we get a benefit out of it? Absolutely. Is the byproduct everyone else get a better us? Yes, that's true too.

Jill Hubbard: Absolutely. I think growing too, it's one-on-one therapy is awesome and I think everybody should do it. I'm an advocate. But group process is different. It's so much more powerful. We don't give it credit. It's really a chance for a lot of growth, and that's what we all need to do, is to keep growing with or without the people around us.

Brian Perez: You can find out more. Again, these courses begin this Thursday. They are online, 12 weeks, one hour per week. The details are at newlife.com or by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE. The names of the courses again are Take Your Life Back, Lose It For Life, and Healing Is A Choice. Find the one that's best for you. We can even help you navigate which one might be best for you if you're having trouble deciding. But give us a call. 1-800-NEW-LIFE. And if you want to talk to Dr. Jill and Chris, we are here in the studio for the rest of this hour and next at 1-800-229-3000.

Guest (Male): Today's podcast is brought to you by Club New Life supporters who give a monthly donation because they want to continue to offer help and hope in these very, very difficult places. To find out more about Club New Life, you can go to our website, newlife.com, or call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. If you're new to us, we drop an episode every weekday. We would love it if you would rate or write a review, which helps more people discover help and hope and helps us share wisdom with as many people as possible. Now let's listen to our counselors as they help people walk through life's hardest places. To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: When individuals and families reach out to New Life searching for answers, healing, and the reassurance that they are not alone, it's your financial partnership that allows us to meet them where they are and provide real solutions. We are so thankful whether you give online at newlife.com, or by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE, or by texting NLM to 28950.

We're hosting a special New Life Zoom gathering next week on Tuesday, February 3rd, at 7:00 PM Central Time. This is for our partners of the ministry, people who believe in and financially support what God is doing through New Life. Our friend, Dr. Jim Burns, will speak on estrangement and Becky Brown will be sharing some exciting things coming in 2026 and how people can be more connected to the mission of the ministry. If you'd like to join the Zoom gathering, call us today for details at 1-800-NEW-LIFE. And remember, your generosity changes lives.

1-800-229-3000 is the number to reach us in the studio today, and now we're going to talk to Marilyn in Columbia, South Carolina, who's watching us on NRB TV. Welcome, Marilyn, to New Life Live.

Marilyn: Hello there. Thank you for taking the call. Can you hear me?

Brian Perez: Yep, loud and clear.

Marilyn: Great, thank you. Yes. I'm wanting to figure out how to help my daughter who's 46 years old and she's basically given up, quit. She's a full-time employee, but she rarely gets to work much now. She prefers the bed, just lay there. She's overweight. She's depressed a lot. She had tried to harm herself several weeks ago before Christmas and went to the hospital herself, which was good. I didn't even know about it till after she was in there several hours, and she revealed to me that she thought about hurting herself, she's been that depressed.

I think some situations orchestrated that whole scenario with her, like a mental breakdown. She had lost her dad about a year and a half ago. She's still grieving him a lot. A sister, half-sister, her dad, who was my former husband, passed first, and then a half-sister passed, and her uncle passed. She had a major surgery after all of that, which she's still not fully recovered physically, having some issues. She just hasn't been able to cope. She's the only daughter because my son passed away from COVID in 2022.

Jill Hubbard: Her older brother passed as well.

Marilyn: Her older brother passed in all within the last five years or so. She made a major move three years ago, too, and that wasn't very pleasant because I have a brother who is intellectually disabled and she doesn't help with him a lot. She just withdraws. She withdraws to her bedroom day and night, and night is day to her, on social media during the night.

Jill Hubbard: Does she live with you, Marilyn?

Marilyn: Yes, she does.

Jill Hubbard: She lives with you and sent herself to the hospital and you didn't even know?

Marilyn: I didn't even know until she texted me, "I'm going to the hospital." So I'm waiting for some kind of report and I text her and ask what's going on after several hours. She said, "I lied to you about why." Because she did say, "I was going because I had a cough," so she did lie about that. We thought she was sick with a cold or some flu or something. But anyway, she said, "I was thinking of harming myself." She said, "I'm going to be here overnight." And then I did get the call from the hospital staff because she allowed them to call me and talk with me. It was just, it kind of knocked me off my feet. Of course. And was there any follow-up for her after the hospital? She gets therapy, but I think it's sporadic because she's out of work so much, just resigns herself to the bedroom. Even during the wintry storm that we've had, she could work at home, but she wouldn't even she said she's not working today, she needs to rest. So the depression is severe.

Chris Williams: Marilyn, we need to look at this as one, it's very reasonable what she's experiencing. When we look at the compounding nature of the grief and the losses that she's experienced, it is incredibly significant for you as well. I'm really impressed that you're functioning as well as you are. When we look at your daughter right now, though, we need to treat it more severely than it's being treated, meaning that she is in a life-threatening condition. Without an official diagnosis whatsoever, we're looking at some sort of major depressive disorder.

In that, it can be on its more severe cases and extreme levels life-threatening. So if we were to equate this to a cancer, we would be getting her to an oncologist, we would be getting her into chemotherapy, whatever the appropriate treatment for that is. Now, again, I think it is difficult, even more challenging because of maybe her resistance to the treatment and her sort of tap out and giving up. But if we frame this in a way that whatever it would take for her to get to an oncologist and get to a treatment for cancer is the similar approach that we'd want to take with her major depressive disorder.

Jill Hubbard: And the fact that she took herself to the hospital gives me hope because she saw that it got that bad and did something. So as much as she's giving up, she's not giving up 100%. So short of it being a disaster, let's put some things in place. Let's get her to a psychiatrist. If she's going to therapy sporadically, is the therapy helping her? How could we up that? With major depression, the last thing people want to do is get out and start moving and do things. They want to hide and isolate, but it's the very thing that helps them. So anything that can draw her out and start getting her to engage with real people, not just online, is going to be helpful. And with a psychiatric eval, they can give her medication that can help to lift the mood and give her some of that energy.

Marilyn: And she's taking medication. I don't know exactly what kind because she's not willing to share much with—well, she leaves it out, I should have really looked at it closely and asked her about it, but there has been tension with it too. So I try not to rock the boat to the point where it may be screaming, yelling, or crying. I'm really trying to keep it at bay.

Jill Hubbard: Sure, but I think, Marilyn, she lives in your house. To say, "Sweetheart, I'm concerned about you. How can I help? How can we do something different here that would be effective for you?"

Chris Williams: Marilyn, I'm going to give something for you. There is a program called GriefShare that's in a lot of churches. Again, I have no idea if it's in churches in your area, but I know they have GriefShare all over the country. I want you to look up that program, GriefShare, see if there is a GriefShare group in your area that you can get to because you've experienced a lot of loss. I think the other aspect of it, I have no idea if your daughter would be willing to do this, but if she'd also be willing to go there with you. Sometimes as a shared experience, as a relational experience, people can be more likely to go.

Jill Hubbard: That way you're focusing on the grief and the loss and not where her life is at right now.

Brian Perez: We've also got Life Recovery Groups that might assist you, and some of those meet online. So in case there's not a church in your area there in Columbia, South Carolina, that offers these, then look ours up. They're called Life Recovery Groups. You can find out about them on our website, newlife.com, or by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE. But Marilyn, stay on the phone and we'll help you with that.

We're going to be in the studio for the rest of this hour and all of next. So do call in. We've got Jim, Sally, Patty, Maria all coming up, so stay right here on New Life Live.

Guest (Male): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: Back to your phone calls in just a bit, but first, Chris, a great reminder for Marilyn.

Chris Williams: Yeah, I would be remiss if I didn't mention this because GriefShare is a great resource and opportunity. However, we have, I know of something that is available to everyone that we offer here in-house at New Life. You had mentioned it, there's these three courses, they're launching Thursday, two days from today. Marilyn, let's strike when the iron's hot. I would recommend for Marilyn, Healing Is A Choice. But to be honest, all of these are going to address certain areas of our lives. Lose It For Life could be appropriate for daughter, but again, Healing Is A Choice or Take Your Life Back. If you're out there and any of these calls resonate whatsoever with you or what you're struggling with or you're looking for that new start, you're looking for that breakthrough, it's two days away. Let's jump online and jump in. It's only an hour a week. It is accessible, and I love that about what we're offering here.

Jill Hubbard: Absolutely. I think growing too, one-on-one therapy is awesome and everybody should do it. I'm an advocate. But group process is different. It's so much more powerful. We don't give it credit. It's really a chance for a lot of growth, and that's what we all need to do is to keep growing with or without the people around us.

Brian Perez: It's not too late to sign up. Go to newlife.com or call 1-800-NEW-LIFE for all the details. And now let's go to Patty, who is one of our monthly supporters. Thank you, Patty, for calling in today from Northern Virginia.

Patty: Thank you for taking my call. I have heard heartbreaking calls on your show. I have called in with very serious situations emotionally. This is not like that, but it could turn into a family explosion, so I thought I will call in about it. My granddaughter will be getting married over Memorial Day weekend, and boy, is it fancy. Sounds like one of the royal weddings over in England, really fancy. My grandmother helped raise me and she was a lady of the depression, so we never wasted anything in our household. Turned me into kind of a hoarder now, which I've got to watch that.

Anyway, my son and his wife are very hard workers who are successful. My son has his MBA and a very high position with a well-known company. His wife is a principal who just over the holidays got her doctorate in education. Very successful, making decent money. I don't care if they spend it on their daughter's wedding. That's not what this is about. It's about my family of origin when I was growing up up in northeastern Pennsylvania. I don't recall ever going to a family function where the Williamsons were not there. They were extended family, always at our family events and we at theirs.

Now back to my son and my daughter-in-law. They have two daughters, the younger one's getting married this coming Memorial Day. The last one got married last Christmas, a year ago. Beautiful wedding. This one's going to be wow. I called my son and he says, "Do you have anybody for our guest list?" I said, "Oh yeah, of course, the Williamsons because they're my closest extended family." And I was told, "Mom, Sarah doesn't know those people, so they're not getting invited." Well, I really want them to be there.

The other wedding has come and gone. With this weather that we're involved in, we've been calling each other and checking up. My cousin from my extended family called yesterday to check up on me. I also live alone since I've become a widow. So my cousin Jeannie and I spoke. Her family's feelings are hurt.

Jill Hubbard: Patty, this is such a hard thing. Like you said, these are your close family members. I'm wondering how much your son was involved with them and now it sounds like his kids are really not involved with this side of the family. Weddings are a tricky thing. They're such a happy event, but it brings up all kinds of emotion for all kinds of people. I know young people getting married don't always understand. It doesn't sound like decisions are driven by the pocketbook like they are for so many young people, but it sounds like they are making decisions and prioritizing the niceties of the event and not including as many people. More and more people are trying to scale back in terms of special events like this. Nonetheless, I can understand how it would be hurtful to you. You can be honest with your cousin. If I were planning the wedding, you would be there, and I'm so sorry that they haven't gotten to know you like I have over the years and haven't invested in that. Sometimes we have to accept no at times. We can't always have it exactly the way we want it.

Chris Williams: We don't want to let that define us in terms of our value in any way, nor do we want that to define other people as well. Villifying the family is a really easy thing to do here, and that's what I want to caution against. Really here, I think we've got to control the meaning, the meaning we place on these things. I can see both sides. I can see, "Hey, I'm not close with these people and it's going to be such and such dollar per person." There's a limited amount of space. In this limited amount of space, we have to make really hard decisions of who's invited and who's not. It always hurts most of the time as human beings to be uninvited to something or to not be invited to something.

What I mean by that is we've got to be really careful about how much emphasis we place—what does this mean about me? What does it mean about them? We could get really judgmental. It could cause way more division than it needs to be. I like to put this in the category, if possible, of disappointment. It is disappointment. It is a bummer I'm not invited, or it's a bummer these friends of mine aren't invited. And we can all get over disappointment. We can all put it in that category of like, yeah, I can be disappointed and I can move on and I can understand and I can do both.

Jill Hubbard: Yeah, and we don't want to let that define us in terms of our value in any way, nor do we want that to define other people as well. Right. Villifying the family is a really easy thing to do here, and that's what I want to caution against.

Brian Perez: Patty, thanks for calling in today to New Life Live. That's it for this hour, but we're going to be in the studio for another hour. So if you're on hold right now, stay on hold and we're going to keep the phone lines open for you guys to call in to 1-800-229-3000. Remember, if you ever miss a day of the radio show, we've got the New Life app, newlife.com, youtube.com/@newlifelive. Subscribe to the podcast. So many ways to listen nowadays and to watch as well. God bless.

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