New Life LIVE

New Life: Welcome to the New Life LIVE podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: Hope you're having a blessed day. I know I am. I'm Brian Perez, and for the second day in a row, we've got Dr. Alice Benton and Jim Burns on the show. Alice is a clinical psychologist. Jim is the founder of Homeward. If you want to put an end to your shame or learn how to be a better communicator, we'd love to hear from you. First, let's give the mic to Jim for a thought or two. Jim, what's up?

Jim Burns: Brian, first of all, thank you for what you do. I just sense since he's come on, Alice, our program is better. It's great. It's better, smoother, and funnier. It's so good to have Alice. I don't get to hang out with her as much, and I just trust and admire her and how smart she is. I always take notes on her.

We're going to talk today about doing life with your adult children. I hear so many people who call this program who have struggles with their adult children. We see a lot on marriage, but I want to give a couple of principles.

Number one is if you are a parent of an adult child, you are fired as a day-to-day parent. Parenting has to change, and that's really hard for us. The kids don't know how to be adults, and we don't know how to be parents of adults, so it's a struggle, but you have to give them the passport to adulthood.

Secondly is to keep your mouth shut and the welcome mat out. Unsolicited advice is taken as criticism. I don't know why we do this. I continue to do this with my adult children, but I want to give them advice because it's what I've done for all these years. When we give advice, they see it as you don't trust me to be all grown up.

Another principle is to be students of the culture. Your kids grew up in a different culture than you. We sometimes think that they should jump over to our culture. You can agree to disagree, but you're going to have to understand that they were raised in a different culture when it comes to really important issues like sexuality and their faith.

I'm not saying you change your values, but make sure that you understand where this is all coming from with them. As you think about the question you're going to have to also ask, are you helping or are you enabling? They'll never know how far the town is if you carry them on your back. There are a lot of people who are still carrying their adult children on their back. It might be finances or emotions.

We had our kids boomerang back to live with us eight times. I wrote a book on finding joy in the empty nest, and that lasted for about two weeks before they were back. We loved that, but we had to set up some good boundaries. We had to always ask the question of if we were enabling them or truly helping them.

The intent is always right. When your adult child violates values and strays from their faith and struggles, you can't want it more than they want it. If you're the one who's depressed, struggling, and anxious trying to maneuver that to have your child come back, you're going to have to let them sometimes learn by doing it the hard way. You can't just be a one-topic parent in this case, and you can't just go take care of them. Those are a couple of principles that are so key and critical if you do have adult children.

Brian Perez: That's the name of the book too, *Doing Life with Your Adult Children: Keep Your Mouth Shut and the Welcome Mat Out*. There is some great conversation in here on a failure to launch, the high cost of money, and when your grown child violates your values. Pick this up in the NewLife.com store. You'll also want to get Jim's other book, *Finding Joy in the Empty Nest*. It took Jim two weeks to write this book, and then that's it. We'll be back with your calls. Kaye, you're next on New Life LIVE.

New Life: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

Brian Perez: We've got some special guests coming up on New Life LIVE that you won't want to miss. Open up your notes app or get your daily planner and join us. Tomorrow, Dr. Henry Cloud joins us again. Next week on Monday, blended family expert Ron Deal will be with us. Ron is a best-selling author and licensed marriage and family therapist who can help with any question you have. If you're in a blended family situation, it'll be a great day to call in for help. Mr. and Mrs. Brady, we can't wait to talk to you about what you're going through.

Jim Burns: That dated you, by the way.

Brian Perez: Yes, it did. Kaye in Washington D.C., listening on WAVA, thank you so much for calling in today. How can we help you?

Kaye: I have already called in a few times within the last few months. I've just been going through a really challenging time. At the time, my focus was on trying to save my marriage. My husband had cheated on me, and I was still trying to save the marriage, but the day before Thanksgiving, he did tell me that he wanted a divorce.

Things have just been going very quickly, and he's been making a lot of changes to our finances and to the kids' schedule. I think he's going to try to have 50/50 custody, and I'm having a hard time letting my kids go. I'm so scared. My kids are everything to me, and it's hard to even be away from them for even a weekend. He's moving so fast, and I'm trying to catch up, and I'm just so overwhelmed.

Brian Perez: And this man you used to depend on and at one point, hopefully, could trust has completely turned. I'm sure he seems like a stranger and an enemy who's trying to steal your children from you. This is terrifying.

Kaye: It's just so hard. I just don't understand what's happening. It's happening so fast. I'm just so overwhelmed, and I don't know how to move.

Dr. Alice Benton: Kaye, do you two still live together, or has he moved out?

Kaye: Yes, he's still here. I think he's trying to wait until we can get to an agreement. But he just said he's not waiting for me. He just says he doesn't have any patience anymore to wait, so he keeps moving forward. I just feel so powerless.

Brian Perez: He's bulldozing you and bulldozing the kids' life and the family life. Is he divorcing in order to go with his affair partner?

Kaye: I don't believe so because from what he told me, the affair was from an escort. He didn't know them.

Brian Perez: Is part of the fear for your children that he will verbally or physically mistreat them? I understand that you can't trust him in these other areas you've described.

Kaye: I don't feel like he will mistreat them, but I feel like his family will turn them against me. My six-year-old son already told me that my husband's mom told him not to trust me right now. I've seen this with his family, which is why I've been so protective. It just scares me so much to think that they're going to turn them against me.

Brian Perez: That's an understandable fear. Will you tell us what is your support like and who are you talking with and checking in with about what's going on?

Kaye: I just opened up to my family because I can't take it anymore. They recognized that he took the kids for Thanksgiving, and it's the first time I've never been around my kids for a holiday. So I decided to let them know what was going on.

Brian Perez: And are they supportive of you?

Kaye: Yes, they didn't know a lot. I didn't share with them a lot of things because I was trying to protect the marriage.

Brian Perez: Kaye, are you getting any professional help right now?

Kaye: I was until he stopped the finances. He completely changed it, so I had to pause it.

Jim Burns: Kaye, your feelings and your emotions are good. That happens. You're grieving an incredible loss and there's fear. I totally understand that. I think you've got to make sure you figure this out, finances or not. You've got to find what I like to call a circle of support.

That means you have your family; bring them into it. You're not trying to protect him right now in terms of whatever he's done. You need your family to be around you. Circle of support also means that counselor that you were going to. If you liked that counselor, figure out another way. There's a way to do that.

Find somebody at your local church who could talk with you. Call New Life. You can get some help. You can do it on a different cost basis. Don't make that a part of it because what you want right now is to build this circle of support. So I like to say with the circle of support, you've got your family if they're willing to give you some of that support. Then find your counselor, find your church.

A church is a great place of support. That's just one aspect of it. If there's anything going on medically, then you make sure that you're getting the health needs. As you build this circle of support of a friend that you go to coffee with regularly who builds you up, who lifts your arms up and says you can do this, that's the people who do well in the middle of your trauma here.

It is traumatic. They're the people who go ahead and get that circle of support. Sometimes we make excuses that we don't have the money or the time. But what you want right now is to again build this circle of support that's going to help you be the mom.

You're going to have to learn a whole new skill called co-parenting. Nobody loves co-parenting. Make sure you listen to the Ron Deal session on Monday. He's one of my good friends. Ron talks about how you co-parent in a healthier way. Part of that is us getting as healthy as we can and being in touch with our feelings and being able to talk to people about it.

You sound like a person that loves your kids so much and would do anything for them. For their sake, build a circle of support around you. Sometimes you think that goes opposite because you say if I build a circle of support and I've got to talk to somebody and go have coffee with them, that means I'm being away from my kids. Actually, you're going to be at times away from your kids, and to have that circle of support is good.

I just highly recommend that you get back into some kind of a counseling who can help you gain the insight through the deep emotional trauma that you're going through. There are ways to do that. Again, you can call New Life and they can help you think through that if you don't have the resources or the understanding. Kaye, what you're feeling is normal and he did a really a horrible thing to be honest. He's got issues, but you can't now fix him. He's got to deal with his own stuff. Get as healthy as you possibly can.

Brian Perez: When people say they're trying to protect the marriage like Kaye said, it's not so much that she was trying to protect her husband too in hopes that things would improve, but she was also trying to protect the kids. One of them was six years old and this is going to shatter them.

Jim Burns: Exactly. A lot of times when we are talking about protecting the marriage, she hasn't given up hope that maybe this could change. At the same time, there'd be some things that would have to be dealt with with the strong side of Kaye if he's seeing an escort. Again, usually when you hear one thing, there are ten behind it. I hate to say that. I'm not trying to make light of that issue. It may not be that he had a fling or whatever. I'm not saying any of that's good, but he has to get well too. As she gets stronger, that's just only going to help the whole situation. It's interesting that he's still living there, so he probably is a pretty good dad. As much as I wish they could get back together, I don't know that that's the answer right now. I think the answer for Kaye is to get as healthy as she can possibly get. Jesus came up to a person and said, "Do you want to get well?" This is the story of a person who had been lame for 38 years. The person made an excuse. Jesus didn't take that excuse. He just said pick up your mat and walk. That meant he would be healed when he initiated the process of getting healing and I think that's important. Another time, there was a person that said to Jesus, "If you're willing, you could touch me." Jesus said, "I am willing." That's the kind of God we have, but we also have to be willing to be helped and be touched by God and all those kind of things. That's why I'm so big on the circle of support thing.

Dr. Alice Benton: Kaye, of course, you're in a state of panic and it is possible that his family will try to turn your children against you. Making sure you get to a family therapist who can work with your children is a good way to safeguard your relationship with them. Your panic might paralyze you or it might cloud your thinking, so I'd also have you talk with your physician in order to consider an anti-anxiety medication, even if just temporarily, because you need to be as clear-headed as possible.

Then I want you to contact a domestic violence shelter, not because of a risk of physical danger from your husband, but I'm concerned about financial danger. I'm concerned he might be stealing from you or writing over your rights. A domestic violence shelter could put you in touch with some really good attorneys who usually give a free consultation to start, who would be able to fight for you when you're not sure how to fight for yourself. Lastly, because spiritual warfare is real, you might get a group of believers to fast and to pray protection over your family and your children with you.

Brian Perez: So many good resources for you in the NewLife.com store. *Healing Is a Choice* is one that we alluded to because it's based on what Jesus said to the man. He had a choice. That's also the name of a 12-week course that's going to be starting next week. You can find out about that at NewLife.com.

Of course, you said you've called before, so we might have already recommended this for you. Maybe you've already signed up but the Restore: Healing after Betrayal intensive. That's happening in Dallas, Texas, the weekend of March 6th. Details on that at NewLife.com. Let's take another call. Here is Susan in Albany, New York, who watches us on YouTube. Hi there, Susan. Thanks for calling in today.

Susan: Hi, thanks for taking my call. I'm a long-time listener and supporter of New Life, so thank you all. I have gotten so much out of your program over the years. Your advice is always spot on, so I'm so appreciative of that. My question today is what should my next steps be in trying to connect with a person?

You mentioned the circle of support, which I love hearing. I'm trying to be a circle of support for someone, but it's not going exactly as planned. To give you a little background, the person is a lady that I've known casually over the years. She would come to Bible study off and on and she would share at times. I know she's gone through a lot. She struggles with anxiety and depression.

Recently I've tried connecting with her a bit more and asking her out to share a meal. Initially the response is enthusiastic, but on the actual day she cancels with an excuse. We're not at a level in the relationship where she would probably feel comfortable saying I can't meet today because my anxiety's kicking up, but her family says keep asking her.

Brian Perez: Susan, I just leave you with a question to think about over the break. Does the feeling of that push-pull in relationship from her, is that at all familiar to you with someone else in your past that you tried to connect with? Think about that to answer it after the break.

New Life: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

Brian Perez: Susan, as you know, the break is over. Alice, you had a question for her and did you have a chance to think it over, Susan?

Susan: I did. Can I respond with a question? By push-pull do you mean in my relationships do I tend to push for it and then pull for it?

Dr. Alice Benton: I'm talking more about her pattern of yes I will go, no I won't. If you experienced the hurt of that before, was there any significant relationship that treated you in a similar way to how she treats you?

Susan: Not that I can think of and I actually don't feel hurt by her response because I don't think we're at that level of friendship if that makes sense. But I'm concerned about her well-being more so that I'm again trying to be part of her circle and she has been open to it, but of late it's just been not there. I just don't know should I continue to? I left it open-ended now and said okay, contact me. I don't want to pressure her because I know what it's like to be depressed, but I also know it's not good to be isolated. That's my stance right now. I left it open to her. I don't know if she'll respond back, but should I do something more?

Jim Burns: I actually think what you're doing is exactly the right thing. My background in ministry and training people in ministry is that's what we say. A lot of times family members will say you've got to help this kid, this marriage, this, and you make the offer and they don't take it up. Then the very best thing you can say is, "I think you're awesome and I'm looking forward to one day connecting when you're ready and know that the door is always open."

It's not about you on this one, it's about her. It's too bad because sometimes people, especially people who have some depression going on and some anxiety, it's more about what they're going through. But you can't force yourself upon her. Periodically, does she go to church with you? Are there times when you just see her or do you have to always make a call?

Susan: I do not anymore because she switched churches.

Jim Burns: Because that's a more natural thing where you go, "I haven't seen you for a while. How are you doing? That coffee date's still always open." But I think you've done it spot on. Not only we were teasing you about the music came on you stopped and all that, but I think you're actually doing what you're showing her love and care, but you're also respecting some of those boundaries.

Again, if she was suicidal, if there were some other things like that, then we have to kind of barge in. But in this case it doesn't sound like that's the case. Maybe she needs a circle of support but she's not doing it the right way. You're not responsible for her making those good decisions. You're a servant. You're serving her by saying I'm available.

I actually think you get the gold star from New Life for doing what you're doing. There are other people who need that and would probably accept your deal. I'm not saying you move on, but even in the Bible it talks about if somebody doesn't invite you in, then kind of dust off your shoes and keep going.

That doesn't mean that you leave her, but it does mean that if she doesn't want the help, you can't give it to her and you're not responsible. I know there's some family members who are tied in there and they're probably hoping that you're the answer. But if she's kind of flaky on that, and there could be good reasons, but because it's multiple times, if it was just once then I'd say then ask again. But if it's multiple times that she does that, then she's saying to you I'm not ready.

That doesn't mean that she doesn't like you or she won't come back. I've had things where I remember saying to somebody when I was pastoring in a church, I said, "My door is open at all times, but I'm not going to hassle you here," because they kept doing the same thing. Three years later I get a call saying, "Is your door still open?" And my door was. We had a good conversation. We actually then moved it into a more relationship like you're probably looking forward with her. But it took them three years. I would have done it in three minutes because I thought they needed to be together with me, but they don't. They'll do it on their own time and a lot of times it's delayed.

Dr. Alice Benton: Susan, did she ever ask you to stop pursuing her?

Susan: No. As a matter of fact, she's very thankful and appreciative, but yet it doesn't materialize or hasn't so far.

Dr. Alice Benton: Does she remain heavily on your heart and mind like you kind of can't get her off your mind?

Susan: Yes, pretty much since the beginning of the year.

Dr. Alice Benton: When that happens, I have two guesses. One is God keeping her on your heart and mind for a reason, or going back to is there some historical reason for you, some unfinished business in another relationship. Even though nothing came to mind yet, and it may not apply to your history, it may then apply to God.

I was thinking as you were talking about several clients I have worked with who are so depressed they can't show up at a restaurant. Sometimes they can't answer the phone. And yet they're so lonely and they desperately want a Susan to be reaching out to them from time to time. If it doesn't cost you and it doesn't hurt you when she rejects you, I want you to ask God if he wants you to still pursue her from time to time. You might tell her you can say no and you can also tell me if you want me to still stop and I would stop.

Lastly, if she's in a very deep level of depression, I'd hope you'll recommend to her family to contact us so we can get the family in touch with an interventionist so that they can bring them around and equip them of how they might try to break through to her too.

Brian Perez: So good, Susan. It was great speaking with you today on New Life LIVE. It is break time once again. Ed in Boston, we're going to talk to you in just a moment here on New Life LIVE.

New Life: Today's podcast is brought to you by Club New Life supporters who give a monthly donation because they want to continue to offer help and hope in these very, very difficult places. To find out more about Club New Life, you can go to our website NewLife.com or call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now if you're new to us, we drop an episode every weekday. We would love it if you would rate or write a review, which helps more people discover help and hope and helps us share wisdom with as many people as possible. Now let's listen to our counselors as they help people walk through life's hardest places.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE. The Intimacy in Marriage weekend is coming up February 13th in Orange County. It's where couples come to experience serious breakthroughs and growth. After learning information as a group on topics like attachment styles, how your family of origin impacts your marriage, and ways to build sexual intimacy without shame or insecurity, you'll apply the information in therapist-led process groups.

Here's what one attendee told us: "I was completely shut down and had lost all hope for our marriage. Our patterns owned us. We couldn't break the cycle. But the Intimacy in Marriage weekend has redeemed us. I now have hope for my marriage." This can be your story too. Get all the details at NewLife.com and let's get you a discount. Register by next Friday, January 30th, and you'll get the early bird rate. Here is Ed, who listens to us on Sirius XM channel 131 in Boston, Massachusetts. Hey, Ed, welcome to New Life LIVE.

Ed: Hi, thank you for taking my call and thank you for everything that you guys do. My question today is I need some direction and guidance with regard to a family issue and my 33-year-old daughter. My wife and I are empty nesters for many years. We have two daughters. Eight years ago, my oldest daughter married her high school sweetheart. They dated for seven years.

Last year, my former son-in-law quit the marriage. He decided suddenly within about a month and a half that he was done. As things came to light, we find out that it was an abusive relationship verbally, emotionally, and sometimes physically. This came to light when she started counseling with her pastor and his wife. Fast forward past the upheaval and the hurt and the betrayal.

A few months ago, my daughter began dating a man that we believe to be a Christian. It seems like a completely different situation. To a degree she seems completely swept off her feet, but I'm struggling with a number of issues in terms of moving forward as a father. Prior to that she was under my roof, and then there was kind of like that counsel of authority that we had that relationship and she willingly was under that, but now we know so little about this guy. He is a foreign national. He doesn't have his green card. He does have a work visa that expires in two years. I've got a thousand thoughts that are just swirling around in my mind and I just don't know how to navigate and to move forward.

Jim Burns: Is your relationship with her good? Would she go out to coffee with you and does she like spending time with you as the dad?

Ed: Oh yes, very much. In fact, we went out to eat just the other week and she shared a little bit more about him.

Jim Burns: What I find is exactly that. I would up the ante in terms of just spending time with her because you're going to get some of those questions answered and you're not going to like all the answers, possibly, but maybe you will. The more a dad and a daughter can have when she got married those years ago, you had a different role in her life.

Today you're more parent to adult child and so your role is one to be her advocate, to show love and care and support her. It's to ask those important questions if she's willing to do it. I wouldn't dump if you have a hundred questions; I would do that over several coffees and meals. But as long as your wife feels this is okay and others feel this is okay, I would up the ante. I think she needs you and obviously you can help her.

But don't make it just the dad now. You have to reinvent your relationship with her. Her job is to kind of figure this one out and it sounds like she is swept off her feet. All of that sounds maybe okay, but I find that daughters especially with their dads, they want their dad's input. If she's willing to give you some of that information, then I think you're on your way to a healthy change in the relationship.

That's again what my suggestion is: be in relationship with her more than ever. I have adult daughters and once a month I go on a date with them. It might be breakfast the other day with one of them and I get all kinds of info. Other times I do it and all we talk about is snowboarding and I want more. But you just build into it. They need to know that you're safe, that you're there, and they want your advice, but let her ask for that advice more than you just dump on it. Does she live in your home?

Ed: No, she's out on her own. She has her own career.

Jim Burns: Right, because sometimes it's those spontaneous things that happen when she's in the same home, but since she's not living in the home, you have to be more intentional. "Honey, where you live, I'm going to be there on Tuesdays." I had a meal weekly with one of my daughters as an adult during a tougher time in her life. She knew I had an agenda. I hid the agenda; it was in my top pocket in a note card.

One day she said to me after six months, she goes, "I know you got something, I don't know where it is, it's probably in your pocket or something, but I know you have some questions, just lay it on me." She's the one with a master's in clinical psych and I was caught. I wanted to go, "No, no, well, okay I do," and there were five questions.

Write questions out ahead of time. "How's it going?" Then the other thing I would say is get to know that guy. If she's willing, then you and your wife spend some of that hard-earned money taking them out for a meal and enjoying each other and really getting acquainted because the way you're going to get information is by spending time with them.

If she asks, you have that opportunity. "I see a yellow flag because of this. What are you going to do when the not the green card but when the work permit is done in two years because he's going to have to go back?" Typically that's the case unless he's going through a process. Asking those kind of dad questions are okay, but I wouldn't do that from the beginning because you don't want her reeling from you pushing too hard. Spend time. You get the info. It never hurts. If my kids are willing to spend time with me, then I'm going to spend time with them because I'm going to learn all kinds of stuff that sometimes I don't want to hear, but I'm still going to have to learn those things.

Dr. Alice Benton: Ed, can you forgive yourself that you didn't see that abuse coming from the high school sweetheart and that your daughter couldn't tell for such a long time either?

Ed: I struggle deeply with that.

Dr. Alice Benton: To be her protector and an obviously concerned and involved dad, and this man fooled everybody. You knew him for seven years and that he could treat your daughter like that and you all weren't aware of it and you couldn't be aware of it. That must have rocked you and rocked your sense even of yourself and yourself as a father.

Ed: Absolutely.

Dr. Alice Benton: And I would think it might leave you hypervigilant, especially when there are more obvious potential problems. He's not a citizen, he has a work visa, how can we really know this guy? It must make it that much more difficult to want to trust or even want to know this new man.

Ed: Very true. I've practiced some avoidance behavior as a matter of fact.

Dr. Alice Benton: You have avoided time with him or getting to know him.

Ed: Yes, they have not pushed for us to get to know him and I shared that with my daughter that this is very hard for me. I don't want a repeat performance of what has happened and she gently took my hand. This was over dinner at our house and she said, "Dad, when you're ready, we'll move forward, we'll take that step, but we're not going to push," which I appreciated, but at the same time I don't want to wind up being complacent and just say hopefully maybe it'll go away because it's probably not going to go away.

Jim Burns: She said when you're ready. Ed, go meet him. Take the nudge; she welcomed you. Again, you may not like what you meet. That's always a possibility, but you can't make decisions in some ways or even help without getting to know this gentleman. So that's what I would do. I would meet him.

Dr. Alice Benton: Ed, if you can be the kind of man who's willing to be in recovery because you've got hangups like we all do and you're willing to talk openly about that with your daughter and with her new boyfriend, you are setting the model for what she can and should expect. I think a person's willingness to be in recovery is one of the best signs of being a safe person and becoming an even safer person, so be that, hope for, and expect that for your daughter.

Brian Perez: Ed, there's a great book that we talk about all the time, it's by Jim Burns, *Doing Life with Your Adult Children*. It sounds like you've already got a great relationship with your daughter, but it can always be strengthened. Pick that up from the NewLife.com store and thank you so much for calling us today here on New Life LIVE. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll be back with more on New Life LIVE.

New Life: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE. The amazing God-honoring work we do at New Life is thanks to you, our generous donors. You're joining in what God is doing through this ministry when you make a gift of any size.

You can give online at NewLife.com or by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE or text NLM to 28950. Your gift helps provide counseling, workshops, radio shows, and digital resources that meet people where they are, helping them take their next step toward healing and hope. Again, go to NewLife.com, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE or text NLM to 28950.

When you're on NewLife.com, you can also find the ways that you can get your questions to us in case you can't call us when we're here recording in the studio. You can leave us a voicemail; you can send us an email. Those last two ways are great, but they're not as much fun as speaking with you, but we get it, you may not be able to call in when we're here. Here is one of those questions that was submitted online. It's from Mickey.

Brian Perez: Mickey writes: "What is the next step after I had an affair many years ago that my husband keeps bringing up? I've been listening to you for many years on and off. Thank you so much for what you do. I met my husband 38 years ago and we have now been married for 27 years. During that time we spent about six years apart, two before our marriage and four after.

In those years of separation, I made mistakes and had an affair. When we eventually began living together in the U.S. after time apart, I chose to be honest with him about what had happened. I told him the truth and gave him the choice. If he wanted to let me go, I would accept his decision. He chose forgiveness and together we committed to building a future.

Since then we've moved forward raising two wonderful children, they're 20 and 16, we've built our careers, recently bought a home. His forgiveness meant everything to me and I've lived with deep gratitude dedicating myself fully to our life together. Yet, even though I have remained faithful and devoted, whenever challenges arise in our relationship, he sometimes revisits that past mistake. He brings it up in hurtful ways, asking why I did what I did 25 years ago and saying it made him look bad in front of others.

We've never addressed this issue in a joint therapy session. Both of us see individual therapists. I invited him to join me in a marriage therapy session, but he declined. After a painful two-hour conversation where he blamed me for ruining his life, I'm now left wondering what the healthiest next step should be." Alice, what say you to Mickey?

Dr. Alice Benton: Mickey, I want you to check if you have the strength to be a listener to him yet again. He has unresolved hurt and that's not all on you. I think you have done a very good job of remorse and repentance, but his hurt may not have been listened to enough. He shouldn't be bringing it up to you in this unproductive way that he does, but one thing you can offer him is to be his comfort circle listener, which is that structured listening technique that comes from the *How We Love* book.

My husband told me recently, "You haven't been listening to me very well lately." I thought on the inside, "What? I'm a pro. I am such a good listener. What is he talking about?" So I didn't really believe it, but there could be a grain of truth to it. After I had calmed down a little bit, I went back to him to say, "Tell me about the times I haven't been a good listener to you and I just want to hear."

I listened to him in the comfort circle where you reflect back, you say okay I heard you say, you do not defend yourself, you do not justify what you did, you just draw out your spouse's pain. Often that pain is not just about us and the accusation they made. It was about my husband's father not listening to him and his other family members struggling to be good listeners to him.

It was partly me because sometimes I'm not a good listener. But by drawing out his pain in that proactive way, he was able to talk with me without being too angry or too accusatory and the comfort circle helps us to have a more regulated conversation about a very trying topic. Now when I hear things like, "You ruined my life," that's a very large statement when seemingly you all have reconciled fairly well.

I imagine that statement belongs to some other people, not just you, and to some other failures in his life that he has not processed through. So if you can go in with a humble spirit knowing your infidelity did hurt him deeply and he hasn't recovered from it, but that's probably not all that's stirring in him.

On the other hand, if he continues to only bring it up in hurtful ways, it is okay to limit how and when you're willing to listen to him. You might say, "I am willing to be your listener if we do go into a couples therapy session or if we just stick with this comfort circle. But if you bring it to me with a loud voice and with swearing and with these big accusations, I can't be a good listener. So if you do that, I'm going to have to pause you and walk away, but if you're willing to do it in this safe way, I will be your listener."

Jim Burns: The good news is he stayed with you even when he knew this and he says he's shown forgiveness. The not-so-good news is that he hasn't dealt with it himself. Alice called it unresolved hurt and that's exactly what's going through and so he's got to do the work.

Now you said he's in therapy and so I hope he's getting the help he needs. It's been a long time. Obviously when someone has an affair, when someone breaks trust and you did that in a separation type situation, it is something that affects them, but it shouldn't be continuing to go on. So I don't think he's done the work he's needed to do. You can't be the person to point the finger out at him, your finger just going you're wrong.

However, you invited him to join you with your therapist. You may want to try going to his if he's been talking about it because maybe he feels more comfortable in that setting. Somehow that conversation you're a part of it, but you're not the only part.

He has a pattern right now that in his pattern is I bring that up because I'm always going to win the argument. I'm just going to my pattern is we're in trouble or we're having a conversation and then I'll bring it up and break you down. He's got to learn that and his therapist might be able to get better insight when you're there to say here's my remorse, here's how I feel, here's what he said, here's what's going on.

Actually without trying to sound like you're better than him, it really is important to be able to say I'm just trying to get my hands around it. Somehow when he brings that up, his love tank is not full. I don't know what that means and I don't think you're all responsible for that, but you want to find out in your mind if there is a pattern when he brings it up because he doesn't want to deal with his issue.

His love tank again it's not all about you, but his love tank may not be full. He's got to get through there or he's wearing a very heavy loaded vest that he's not able to to get past or he has a weight on his shoulder. I'm not saying it's easy, but he's got to do that work too. It sounds to me like you're doing the work; I appreciate you doing that. But you guys probably could really use some couples therapy and do that delicately.

Dr. Alice Benton: Check, Mickey, whether or not you sometimes dismiss or minimize his pain. "That was so long ago. I thought you said you already forgave me. I haven't done anything since then," because that will keep the wound open and alive. You might ask him, "How can I rebuild trust and what do you need from me to be able to decrease the hurt you feel?"

And then Mickey, check your own phone use. Are you connecting with males with male friends, with ex-boyfriends on screen? Are you doing anything that would cause him suspicion and fear?

Jim Burns: I like what you said, Alice, because for Mickey she's got to be able to deal with her own because she's dealt with it. It's for and we do this as Christians sometimes. Well I'm forgiven, I'm fine. The other person takes a little longer. This is too long. He needs to get the help, but we do have to be careful that we go well I'm fine, why aren't they fine? You see this a lot with substance abuse people that they go get the help and now it's the person who was the co-dependent who's now going crazy on it or something.

Brian Perez: Mickey, thank you so much for sending in your question. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

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