New Life LIVE

Becky Brown: Hello everybody. It's Becky Brown. I'm so excited to be with you today. We are in for a big treat. Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. Jill Hubbard will be taking your calls today. 1-800-229-3000. I feel like I'm in the presence of greatness between the two of you because I mean you guys are like the OG when it comes to New Life Live, right?

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Well, Henry really is the OG. But we go way back.

Dr. Henry Cloud: When I heard the intro there, since 1987 or '88, actually it was '87 because I was there. I know that.

Becky Brown: And look at us now, Henry. Who would have ever thought all these years later? It's just amazing what God has done through New Life. It's amazing. Well, I'm glad you're here and I know we're going to have lots of calls that want to talk to you. But Henry, one of the things I thought about when I was thinking about what do we want to hear from Henry, and I said what do you want to talk about? And you said your life's work which has been psychology and biblical integration has really proved itself true over the years. I mean, it's pretty amazing God's plan for our life, right?

Dr. Henry Cloud: Yeah, we only know in the rearview mirror, right? What's that old saying? "We make our plans and God laughs." But we don't know the steps it's going to take. But generally, people feel like at some point you've got a life calling or life direction.

How you end up doing that changes, but my mission statement when I was 21 was I wanted to try to understand and show how the Bible can make you well instead of crazy. And it's been fun. And it actually can.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Well, and that God is the great psychologist.

Dr. Henry Cloud: Well, I wrote a book last year called Why I Believe about the whole journey, both personally and all of that. The subtitle of it was A Psychologist's Thoughts on Suffering, Miracles, Science, and Faith.

In the science section was where I dealt with all the obstacles when I came to faith that I had to find answers to. But there's one section in there that says there's one area of science where I can claim a little more expertise and that's the field of psychology and how the science of psychology proved the Bible to me over and over and over again.

How what good science does is it validates, it looks at, and examines the creation. When it does that, it finds things. I've come to love a phrase or one of my favorite verses that says exactly what the science shows. So it's been almost a worshipful experience every day of learning more about how God has wired us together and also how He's spoken to that and given us answers.

Becky Brown: It's amazing. And I think even all of the work that you've done, you're just continuing to give that hope to so many people, Henry. And we're grateful for it because we benefit from it but also just the millions of people who are looking for hope. And we know the way, right? It's great. Okay, so if you've always wanted to talk to Henry, if you've always wanted to talk to Jill, today is your day. 1-800-229-3000.

We're going to take calls for the next two hours. Sometimes we get confused along this journey. Maybe you need to get some clarity and we can help you with that. We've been helping people for close to 40 years. I don't know, Henry, is that the right date? We're going to do some more of that help right after this break.

Becky Brown: Welcome back. You've got a great show today with Dr. Jill Hubbard and Dr. Henry Cloud. Like I said in the opening, it's the OG group. So we want to help as many people as possible. If you can't call in when we are doing a show, we always offer the opportunity, but today isn't the day for that. You need to call in today.

Before we go to the calls, Henry, your work is prolific to say the least. But I said before the show I was talking to Henry...

Dr. Henry Cloud: That's why I'm tired.

Becky Brown: That would be why you're tired, yes. I mean, that's for another show. But the incredible thing is the word boundaries. I don't even know if anybody knew what that was when that book first came out. We just didn't even think, and especially in the Christian community, right? If you're a good Christian, you don't say no. And I was thinking about so many people who struggle with saying no. And I know we're not going to do the whole show with boundaries and we are going to get some calls. But Henry, what would you say to somebody who believes in Jesus, follows Jesus, they're doing their life, and they can't say no because Jesus wouldn't say no? That's what their belief is.

Dr. Henry Cloud: Well, I don't know what Jesus they're talking about, the first one. He actually said, quote, "Let your 'yes' be 'yes' and your 'no' be 'no'." So when you think Jesus doesn't believe in "no", then ask Him if you can be God and see if He says yes or no. I mean, it's built into His image.

Ask Him if you say, "Oh, I want to go commit this terrible sin because it's going to feel good," and see if He doesn't say no or has already said no. So here's the thing when you're talking about Christians struggling and why it kind of caught on. "No" is built in from the image of God. "No" is built into every human.

If you take a baby, this is fascinating. You look at videos as they're starting to become conscious. Something that is good, David said, "God, you taught me to trust You at my mother's breast." They learn to say no. When something is good, you see their whole system opens up to it. We're supposed to engage and say yes to things that are life-giving. We're built that way.

But something unpleasant or a sound, what does the baby do? They start to do this. They turn away from it and they're nodding "no" before they ever know the word. Their system is saying no. Your immune system says no to bad stuff. Fast-forward about 15 months, 18 months, at least by the time they're two, they've learned a word for that.

I remember we were trying to teach our oldest, Olivia, to hear "no". She loved to say it too. And they learn no and they run around. "Olivia, do this now." "No." "No." It comes out so easily. I remember one day, Becky, I said, "Olivia, breathe." And she goes, "No." I just wanted to see if she loved the word.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Well, they learn "no" before they learn "yes".

Dr. Henry Cloud: They do. Their system is going to say it. But something happens. They say no maybe to an abusive or controlling parent and that "no" gets shut down. Or they say no and they get manipulated by guilt. Or they say no with their body and everything in them when they're being abused, but the power from the outside overrides their "no".

So that "no" muscle either gets conflicted or broken. It was in there. It was there all along, but it got wounded. Or sometimes you got modeled into don't say no, maybe with a codependent enabling parent with an alcoholic or something, and it disappears.

But Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost. Seeking means He's looking for your "no" muscle. Save means to heal. And lost in the Greek word actually means broken beyond repair. So a lot of people's "no" muscle is broken, but Jesus wants to seek it and to heal it and get it working to say no to evil inside or outside and say yes to life.

Becky Brown: I love it. Well, we're going to say yes to a few phone calls right now. We're going to talk with Lee who's calling us from Tucson. A friend recommended calling. Lee, we're so glad that you called today. How can we help you? What's your question?

Lee: Well, my youngest is coming home from the army to live with me and he has a lot of emotional hurts over his life and he's very sensitive to people saying things that make him feel like he's put down. So he reacts. On Sunday, he was home for Christmas and a sister told him to stop doing something that she thought was dangerous and he took offense and reacted.

Then the other siblings tried to get him to stop mouthing off, which our family never mouths off. And it just intensified it. And now his siblings, and then I finally told him, "You leave." And so he got in his car and left for the rest of the day. But then he sent mean texts to everybody that they had rejected him, that they were... anyway, he sent a lot of hurtful texts to people. So now his siblings, my family's gotten along and now they don't want to see him again for now. And they don't want to be around him and he's mad at them and it's become everybody's upset at each other.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: So, Lee, he was in the army where you're told everything to do and you have to submit and obey. But what you're saying is he's hypersensitive to any correction at all or maybe what he perceives as criticism from the family and that there's a lot of old wounds there.

Lee: Correct. And then my family says I need to have a contract before he comes home.

Dr. Henry Cloud: Was he like this before he went into the army or was he always kind of like this and could react or is this new from his post-army experience?

Lee: Well, he's reacted before but never with the mouth like he was and never as intense as he did this time.

Dr. Henry Cloud: And did the siblings get along before?

Lee: Pretty much most of the time. If he gets upset about something, he starts ranting about it. And I just stand there and don't react and let him get it off his chest. It might be an hour that he's ranting and then he's got it out and then later he'll come back and apologize to me. But because they've reacted, he won't apologize to them and it's all their fault.

Dr. Henry Cloud: And what is the age range of all these siblings that are still there at your house?

Lee: They were home for Christmas. He's the youngest, he's 26, and the oldest will be 42 soon.

Dr. Henry Cloud: Oh, but the rest of them don't live there.

Lee: No. But the one that is the oldest said maybe he won't come home for his vacation next time if he's living with me. Because the last two days he was home twice a year for two weeks usually, once in the summer and once at Christmas.

Dr. Henry Cloud: The oldest?

Lee: Yes, the oldest. And I'm pretty sure they both have Asperger's. And the thing is, so the older one, the last two days when they were both here, they made sure they were not out of the room at the same time, the bedrooms that they were staying at. They didn't... and so the oldest one said, "I don't know if I'll be able to come back if he's living with you." But I want healing.

I want to find... the oldest one said years ago, "I need counseling but I can't afford it," but I'm willing to pay for him to have it. I just would like to see my family go through counseling and get healing from all this, and especially my youngest. I don't want him to feel rejected.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Is he willing to go for counseling?

Lee: I don't know, I haven't talked to him.

Becky Brown: And is he back in the house now and you guys are back to normal?

Lee: No, he's finishing up getting out of the army. He's finishing his processing. I don't know if he's coming back this week, next week. He didn't know how long it would take him to finish. But he's due to get out and he's trying to get everything finished.

Becky Brown: And what I'm hearing you say, Lee, is that your family feels like it's falling apart and you've been trying to hold it all together and you need to know how to go forward with this. Because you obviously could get a counselor with everybody together, but I think what you're wanting for Jill and Henry to answer is how do you deal with what you're seeing in front of you because you can't control all these parties.

Lee: Yeah, and what do I... they want me to have a contract and I need to know what to write down, how to word the contract so that...

Dr. Henry Cloud: Contract for what?

Lee: Well, like for when he comes home. Like I say, "You're now an adult, you're going to pay rent and you need to get a job. No sitting around doing nothing, you're going to get a job." And also I want to say, "I would like you to get counseling while for your wounds of the past."

Dr. Jill Hubbard: And Lee, are these the things that you want? It sounds like you're getting a lot of input from your older children and so you're kind of the pawn, the broker in the middle, negotiating this deal for them. And how's that going for you?

Lee: But counseling I've added too.

Dr. Henry Cloud: Okay, so let me tell you one thing about the contract first. What a contract is, it's an enforceable document of expectations. And you need a contract, but it ain't just with this one. You need a contract—this is your house. And we're going to make some rules of this is the vision for my home.

My home is a peaceful place where people have control of themselves. Not just army boy, but everybody. And it'd be my friends, it'd be guests. You're a guest, you don't live here. And I just allow certain things in my home and I don't allow other things. So I'm going to hold everybody to the same standard.

And when someone's upset, they have options of ways they do that, but here's what's not allowed. And anybody that can't do that, I'm going to ask you to leave. I wouldn't single him out. God doesn't say, "I'm going to make a contract with Joey but not with Tom about the Ten Commandments."

You've got to figure out what is your vision for your home and what do you expect to happen in your home. And that's got to be shared with everybody.

Becky Brown: And I sounds like... wait, Jill, hold that thought because we're going to go to a break. Right after this, we'll conclude that conversation.

Becky Brown: Welcome back. We are talking with Lee who's got a family that's having a little bit of problems. And Jill, you were just about to give us some incredible tips.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Incredible, yes. So Lee, I like what Henry is saying because it puts you back in charge of your home. You get to say what happens in your home. But instead of a contract, I would call it an agreement.

And you can write it out. And then with your son who's living with you, you have some expectations. "So son, this is what I'm expecting when you move in. What are you expecting?" And so you maybe have an amendment with him, like a separate thing because he's actually living there.

But I would write it all out for yourself so you know it's clear. And you can send it to each of your kids. And that says you're valuing all of their input, but they don't get to be in charge of what you do. And there's certain things that you want and I love that it's required of all of them when they are in the house.

Dr. Henry Cloud: That's right. Whenever I do accountability structures, first of all, there's mutually agreed upon expectations. "Can you agree to these?" Like Jill said, "What do you expect from me?"

Then the next one is "what then". What do we do if these expectations aren't met? And that's where you kind of specify there might be a warning, I might ask you to go calm down, or I might send you to therapy, I might call 911, however bad it gets. So you kind of have some sort of track what they can expect if they don't fulfill it.

But on the other side, what I would do is I'd sit down with him and I'd say, "I'm so glad you're here. Thank you for your service and I know you went through a lot. You're hurting in some ways. And I would like for you to go get some help and I'd be willing to help you to find that and help you begin to be in that process and support it."

And I'd do that in a time when this isn't happening. And then when I'm talking to him about the expectations, I would ask, "So what are we going to do if you find that difficult? I'll work with you, but if you find it difficult to contain yourself, then I'm going to have to require that you become able to do that, and that's where counseling would kind of probably have to be part of the picture or some way for you to be able... I don't want to put expectations on you that you can't do, but I want to be able to help you try to be able to do them because we want to work towards healing."

Then you can figure out the rest of the way. And with adult kids—I hate that term—living at home, sometimes you do let them stay there for no rent in the service of something. Sometimes when somebody graduates and they come home, they've got a season. It's in the service of saving money so they can make a down payment or so they can go to school. Or they do pay rent. The point is that everybody here contributes in some way. So none of us live here for free. My five-year-olds didn't live in our house for free, they had chores. So everybody's got to contribute and that way you're getting a culture of this isn't mom just enabling everybody.

Becky Brown: You know what's interesting about... I also don't like the term adult kids, but what do we call them? But this is a family structure that's being corrected. They have names? Oh, really?

Dr. Henry Cloud: Yeah, they have names.

Becky Brown: But I think we hear so many times that families are blowing up, there's estrangement. And it doesn't always happen parent to child, however old the child is. But what Lee has described is a family that's going to estrange and it seems that the son is the lightning rod for the reason. And there's deeper reasons than that.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Right, but she's also naming two of the sons, the oldest and the youngest, with Asperger's. So they're going to not always sense things correctly and be reactive. So when there's only one of them, it sounds like it's calm but with two of them, there are fireworks.

Becky Brown: We all have work to do, that's for sure. Well, thank you, Lee, for calling. We'll be praying for a great resolution.

Dr. Henry Cloud: You know, there's an old term in the family therapy world since I was in college and it's called the "identified patient" or the scapegoat. And a lot of times when a family is broken, there's one person that turns into the scapegoat or gets blamed or they become the patient when really everybody's got issues. It's just the gravity and the physics flow down in this direction.

Becky Brown: All right, well, thank you, Lee. We'll be praying for a great resolution. We're going to go back to the calls after this break and we're going to talk to you, Kate. So hold on, don't go anywhere. You know, a lot of times that's the way that happens, isn't it? That we hear the music and then we can't do what we want to do.

You know, we have been helping people for so many years and in a couple of weeks, we're going to help a whole lot of couples at our Intimacy in Marriage Intensive. I want you to be there if you're married and you need help in your marriage or if you haven't done any work in your marriage in the last few years, decades, maybe ever.

Join us in Orange County. It's going to be the weekend of Valentine's Day and it may be the very perfect Valentine gift that you could give your spouse. And join us there. We're going to hear from JJ West, Laura-Lynn McDonald. We're going to help you get some clarity to set your marriage in the right direction. We'll be right back after this.

Becky Brown: Welcome back. Before we went to the break, I was telling you about the Intimacy in Marriage that's going to be in Orange County. And I forgot to mention that we have an early bird discount going on that ends January 30th. So you can go to newlife.com or you can call us and find out all the details there.

But we're going to go to Kate, who's been waiting so patiently. She is calling us from Dallas and listens on the internet. Hello, Kate. Thanks for calling. How can we help you today?

Kate: Hi, everyone. Thanks for taking my call. I've been listening to the OGs for almost 30 years. I really feel blessed today to be able to get on.

Dr. Henry Cloud: You must be approaching 42.

Kate: That's why I like you, Henry. Well, I believe my son has some issues with alcohol and potentially maybe Adderall mixed in there. I have confronted him on this and now I'm like public enemy number one. So our relationship is very strained and he tends to be very angry at me and will lash out on me and start fights. He'll say things but then he never wants to come around and say like I was out of line. He just brushes everything under the table.

And I'm trying to help him, but now I feel like he's pushing me so far so that he's not accountable to me. I don't know if that makes sense.

Becky Brown: Kate, how old is he?

Kate: He's 32 and we live very close to each other, next door. And I watch his children. And it's just very hurtful because we've been so close our whole lives. My family, kind of like your last caller, is so close and this has been causing a problem. But there's a lot of background to it.

But he got very angry at me because one day he had called and he had ripped me up one side and down the other about an issue with the children, but he was actually drinking that day and it wasn't even making sense. So then after that, he had asked me to do something and I told him, "I'm reconsidering my offer on that because I don't appreciate the way you treated me and I would appreciate an apology. But more importantly, I'd like to see this behavior change because I'm noticing a pattern like this."

Well, then he got so angry at me, came over, said, "Oh, you're manipulative, you're controlling, you're this, you're that." And I just don't know where to go because my heart is I want him to get some help with his drinking, but he's not seeing it as a problem yet nor is his wife. They tell me, "What is it to you if I want to have a drink?" Well, I just see that it's not working in their favor anymore.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: So the wife, does she also drink?

Kate: No, she does not. Oh, she doesn't. But she doesn't see his drinking as a problem. I think she sees it's a problem, but that she doesn't see it that way.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Well, Kate, I think it's usually not the best idea to engage and argue with someone when they're drinking.

Kate: I have a father who was an alcoholic and died from it. So I know... scary for you. He wants... yeah. I don't want to see him going down that road.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Of course not.

Kate: And so the strange thing is he doesn't think I know that he's drinking, but I know he's drinking.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Well, you're probably a little more hyper-attuned to it because you grew up with that.

Kate: Right. So then I'm trying to find a balance. Is it my problem? Is it their problem? I'm not really sure because maybe I'm having a little higher expectation in that area.

Becky Brown: Wouldn't you both say that there's a problem because the adult is yelling at the other adult? Isn't there a problem if somebody's yelling? The way he's treating her I think is a problem.

Dr. Henry Cloud: Well, the first thing I wanted to understand was their response was, "What's it to you if I have a drink?" Are you like a "you don't want to be around anybody that has a drink" or are you talking about that his behavior is clearly intoxicated behavior? Where's your line?

Kate: I'm not... I don't swing that far. I actually used to enjoy drinking here and there. I have friends that socialize. I'm not like, hands down, no alcohol. But I'm watching a behavior happen when he's drinking that's really not good.

Dr. Henry Cloud: Well, you've got a big obstacle here. And the obstacle is that if somebody's got an addiction or substance problem or anything like that, it's generally the people that are most affected by that that feel the need for something to be done about it and not only most affected but also have some sort of a leverage, what they think or want matters.

The one closest to him, his wife, doesn't think this is a problem. So what you're trying to do here is you're trying to have an effect of a behavior change where you have very little leverage and you've got more powerful forces within his immediate system than you have available to you.

He already knows that you see this as a problem. I would probably not lead with that. I'd put that aside for a second. The problem here is his behavior when he's with you. That's really what you can most effectively have a chance at impacting. And I mean, it could be the alcohol, it could be that, who knows what's causing it.

But and I wouldn't begin with a confrontation. What I would do is I'd begin in the way I think the Scripture tells us to begin and that is that we start with affirming the relationship. "For God so loved the world," okay?

Dr. Henry Cloud: And I would start with, "Joey, I love you and I love the times we used to have together and I want more of those. It's broken down. We're kind of broken now. And I just want to hear from you, how do you think we got here? Tell me what's going on."

And see if he can begin to open up about that and you begin with hearing that first instead of changing him first because that's never going to work usually unless you're a cop with a badge and have leverage to throw him in jail, which doesn't, you know, whatever.

So I would start there and then I'd ask him, "Let's figure out a way forward. What do we want from each other? What's the relationship like that we want?" And if you're ever going to have an effect on the drinking, I think you've got to start with building trust.

And then you can have some expectations like Jill was talking about on the previous caller. "If we have a conflict, I'd like for us to talk about it. I don't like getting yelled at." And work on that first. And if the drinking is a problem, if it's a problem, there are going to be consequences that fall into his life and his marriage and his job. He's not listening to confrontation, people listen to consequences.

Now, if he starts to bring that into your home, that's where you can have limits and say, "You know what? I don't like to be yelled at and I don't like this. I'd be glad to talk about this stuff. And if we need be, let's go make an appointment with a counselor that can help us." But you can have the limits on the behavior that you don't want. But I would start with trying to build the bridge back first.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Yeah, I think that's a good place to start, Kate. Don't focus on the drinking. And I would even at some point admit to him and maybe even apologize for focusing on his drinking because you have no control over that.

And I would share with him your upbringing has made you fearful about that. And that it scares you because you don't want that for him, but you realize that you are extra sensitive and that it's really his choice. He's an adult. And at the same time, what we're not saying is allow somebody to destroy themselves because extended family, families ultimately if this gets whatever, extended families do come together and deal with the drinking. It's just right now I'd try to build that bridge first.

Becky Brown: That's right. Well, we will be right back after this break with more wisdom from Henry and Jill. Welcome back. I want to say thank you to each and every one of you who give financially to support New Life. You are making a difference in the lives of so many people and it may be your life that changes the most because of your generosity.

You are helping us reach out to so many people. We are having a special event for our recurring givers, also known as Club New Life, on Tuesday, February 3rd at 7:00 PM Eastern, I think that is. Nobody correct me. But anyway, you're going to hear a special message from Jim Burns who you hear hear here all the time. We'll have a time of Q&A. If you want more information, you can call us 1-800-NEW-LIFE or go to newlife.com and we'll give you the information.

But right now we're going to go back to the calls. We are here with Henry and Jill, the OG. I was told, Henry, I should have said that you are an acclaimed leadership expert. And you are. You've done so many things. But I just don't want to dismiss the fact that you have impacted so many people's lives not only through your writings but your teachings and your commitment to God in everything that you do. And I just want to say thank you for everybody who's listening right now because I know that they have been impacted by your life. So thank you, Henry.

Dr. Henry Cloud: Thank you.

Becky Brown: Now we're going to go to the calls. And we're going to talk with Lucy, not your daughter, but another person, Lucy, who's calling from Peoria and she listens on the internet.

Dr. Henry Cloud: Okay, you opened the door. Everybody's got to go wherever you get your music, go look up Lucy Cloud. She just released a new EP and look up the song "In Every Sort of Way". I would start with that, that's my favorite on there.

Becky Brown: I love a proud dad moment.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: I do, I love it.

Becky Brown: All right, well, Lucy in Peoria, I don't think that's your deal. But hey, we're glad you called today. How can we help you, Lucy?

Lucy: Well, I listen to your podcast every morning and I love it. I've been listening for years and I value your what you guys have to say. So I have a question. I have a 13-year-old son that will be 14 this year and I feel his dad is coercing him to come live with him. He told me a long time ago that when he was... "my dad said when I was 14, I'm going to come live with him."

And last year... I'm sorry, I'm so nervous. My heart's pounding through my chest. Oh, that's okay. Last year, my son was diagnosed with ulcerative colitis. And this past weekend, he was mad at me and couldn't give me a reason why. But he gave me a reason, he told me he didn't want to live. He didn't deserve to live.

And he's never talked like that before. He always wants to see his dad and his family, but doesn't want to see my family. And I have documented so many things over the years of what his dad has done that my son has told me. And my son doesn't tell me much anymore because he says he wants to keep the peace. And I try not to say anything bad about his dad, but I think his dad says a lot to him about me. So I was... I called in to ask for a counselor and Kay wanted me to talk to you guys, so here I am.

Dr. Henry Cloud: I love that she did that. I was a little unclear. He wants to go live with his dad. That's your ex?

Lucy: He is my ex, we've been divorced since my son was five years old and he's now 13 going to be 14 this year.

Dr. Henry Cloud: Okay. And before we kind of give thoughts, a lot of times it's really important to know what kind of rock or sand somebody's standing on. What's the divorce settlement custody, what's allowed, not allowed, dictated, mandated? How does that work?

Lucy: Well, we have shared custody and during school, he's supposed to come here on Tuesdays. His dad won't let him come here on Tuesdays. He does the summer thing which is Wednesdays. And then he'll pick him up early, which he's supposed to pick him up after work, which he doesn't work much. So he picks him up in the mornings instead of at 4:00 or 5:00 in the afternoon. And so he's not going by the agreement that we had. He does what he wants, exactly.

Dr. Henry Cloud: And what's been done about that?

Lucy: I haven't done anything because I'm afraid if I do anything that he will take it out on our son and say more things. So I just kind of let it go. But this last weekend was very disturbing when he was talking about he doesn't deserve to live. And he's never been like that before.

Dr. Henry Cloud: That's the thing. Before you solve any of these other problems, that's the one that's got to be addressed first. And so that should be a co-parenting problem, right? You and your ex should figure out what are we going to do for our son who is obviously struggling.

Dr. Henry Cloud: And secondly, I'm sure you know this, colitis is so well-documented the flare-ups and all that can... stress doesn't cause the disease or the problem, but a big, big factor in how it plays out. So his mood disorder, whatever that might be, and this colitis are related as well.

So I would get him... I would intervene and get him treatment in counseling immediately, especially when you hear something that sounds like that. That's number one. Now hopefully, if you can engage that in a co-parenting way where the counselor's working with both of you, that counselor's going to really get into y'all's dynamic and how he's behaving because the kids get in played out a pawn between the two of you and a good adolescent counselor is going to go after that.

So that's probably the best strategy even to solve all these other problems.

Lucy: Well, I need to get myself into counseling and I've tried several times to get him into counseling and his dad will cancel the appointments because he'll think something's wrong with him.

Dr. Henry Cloud: Well, something is wrong right now. Exactly. Exactly. Now you might need to find out the legal standing that you have to require what. That's why I began with that and go back to talk to your lawyer as well.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Well, and you might even start with the medical doctor and ask for a referral from him. Get him on board with recommending that the son go to counseling. Because it sounds like Dad is constantly fighting you. So anything you do, he's going to go against. So you need other people that are recommending this for son in terms of his treatment.

And I'd be curious too when he says he doesn't deserve to live. This isn't "I don't want to live," this is "I don't deserve to live." And I really wonder what that's about. I might ask him about that. "What do you mean by deserve? Tell me more."

Becky Brown: Well, what we do know, what we do know is that time is of the essence for him and you can't wait, Lucy. And so we will get you connected with somebody that can help your family. It's so hard when we're in those stressful situations and then somebody needs immediate help and your son does. We're grateful that you called, Lucy. Hold on and we'll get you directed to a therapist.

We only have a few seconds before the end of the program, but we are going to continue to take calls for the next hour. 1-800-229-3000 is your way to talk to Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. Jill Hubbard. We are so grateful that we have the opportunity to connect with people wherever they are. So if you are in a struggle, give us a call. 1-800-229-3000. For the rest of the resources, you can always go to newlife.com. We've got some incredible ways for you to take the next step in your life. To experience a new life. Thank you, Henry. Thank you, Jill. We'll be right back after this.