New Life LIVE

New Life: Welcome to the New Life LIVE podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: Happy Monday, my friends. Welcome to New Life LIVE. It's also Martin Luther King Jr. Day as we honor the great civil rights leader. We're here today to talk about forgiveness, grief, whatever's been troubling you. Our panel has been specially trained to offer help and hope. My name is Brian Perez. We've got clinical psychologist Dr. Alice Benton here and licensed marriage and family therapist Dr. Jackie Mac-Harris, who's got something she'd like to share, I bet.

Jackie Mac-Harris: Yes, I do. I'd like to talk about reading. America has an average eighth-grade reading level. That means that there are some people who don't read at all because there are some people who read at a college level. So, average eighth-grade reading level and an average sixth-grade comprehension level. We don't always take the time to read. We just will take whatever someone says to us and whatever someone shares to us.

But that's a problem for us as believers because it is important that we read the word for ourselves. I know people who don't read well but who read and understand Scripture very well. So, I just want to encourage our readers to read for yourself. Don't let your Bible understanding come from the pulpit only. Yes, our pastors preach and they are well-studied, but you are getting soundbites, similar to what we get when we are watching something on TV and we just get a little clip of what the whole conversation was.

There are some reasons for doing this. It's crucial for spiritual growth, providing guidance, wisdom, and a direct connection with God, and that's what's life-changing. Your connection with God through others, when you don't have a personal relationship with God, it feels like a lot of work. It feels like you've constantly got to actively chase after God and actively be seeking relationship with him, and there's something you must be doing in order to be a good Christian when the reality is a relationship with God is all that you need.

Then the changes happen because of your openness and surrender. If you get into reading for yourself, the benefits you'll receive are some ability to better map out your life, a renewing of your mind as Scripture says, it fosters faith because you're getting to see things play out in Scripture and then you'll see them play out in life. It offers peace and it helps believers be able to rightly divide the word of truth.

When someone says something to you and says that well, this is what God says, if you don't read Scripture, you don't know if that's true or not. So, you're not actually believing God; you're believing this person. When I used to teach children's church, we had someone donate money to us and we used that money to buy children's Bibles because I believe it's important even for children to read it for themselves. If the pastor's reading that Scripture, you should be reading it as well so that you get an understanding. Direct connection with God, spiritual nourishment, guidance and wisdom, renewing the mind, strengthens our faith and hope, and it empowers action and it fuels other disciplines in our life. Please read Scripture for yourself. To do that, read—start at the beginning.

If someone sent you a love letter, you wouldn't pick out certain lines of that love letter. You would read it from the beginning to the end and maybe over and over again. That is how we should treat God's word. Apply it, depend on the Holy Spirit to speak to you, which you will understand because you're reading the word, and then speak it. If you're reading it, you can actually speak Scripture and speak life because it's in you.

Brian Perez: I was a pulpit-only Christian until my mid-twenties, and my life changed immensely when I started to understand the value of regular Scripture. But I also needed an easy-to-read translation because as much as I love the King James Version, that's a little highfalutin for my reading comprehension level.

Jackie Mac-Harris: I'm New Living Translation, I agree. Right now I'm reading the New Revised Standard Edition, newly revised. So, I'm like, okay, well, let's try this one. So, I'm reading a new version going through because I like to strengthen my understanding of who God is.

Brian Perez: Get into the word, guys, and we'll get to the phones when we come back.

New Life: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

Brian Perez: We are extremely pleased to announce that tomorrow, the one and only Dr. Henry Cloud will be answering your questions for two hours. Talk about a blast from the past for the New Life past, I should say, though he was here about six weeks ago. The door is always open for Dr. Cloud, and we invite you to join us tomorrow and call in with your questions. You got trust issues or trouble setting up boundaries? Talk to the man himself, Dr. Henry Cloud, on the January 20th New Life LIVE. Let's go to the phones now. Here is Lisa, who is in Annapolis, Maryland, watching us on YouTube. Hi there, Lisa. Welcome to the show.

Lisa: Hi there, thank you.

Brian Perez: How can we help you today?

Lisa: Okay, I first posed the question of how to handle a spouse that, out of basically nowhere, just started nitpicking, putting down, criticizing.

Brian Perez: So, you said out of nowhere. How long has it been going on? When did it start?

Lisa: I would say that it's been roughly the last three years.

Brian Perez: How long have you been together?

Lisa: Since 1989.

Brian Perez: Wow, a very long time. So, in all that time, he didn't have complaints or issues or there were no put-downs or name-calling or any of that?

Lisa: Right.

Jackie Mac-Harris: That's interesting. So, the nurse in me is wondering if there was a medical change that happened with him neurologically or...

Lisa: No, no medical changes happened with him neurologically, no.

Brian Perez: Do you have a sense of what changed between the two of you?

Lisa: Well, this is where it's difficult. Things have happened. We got married in '92 and then been living separately since 2006. Same house, we still share the finances, but we live separately as roommates. Separate rooms, you know, there's no marriage.

Brian Perez: Did you say since 2006 or 2016?

Lisa: 2006.

Brian Perez: 20 years. And so, are there things about the way you live that he's now judging?

Lisa: Possibly could be because I have moved forward in my life. I belong to 12-step groups and there's been major changes that's gone on with me there: physically, emotionally, spiritually. I go to church, Bible study groups, book study groups, my 12-step group, I sponsor people.

Brian Perez: Has that evolved or grown in the past three years, your work?

Lisa: No, no. I know that I had a very, very good friend that passed in two years ago, and I don't feel the same, I think, in a way. But I'm not mean or ignorant. And today was one of the—that's what prompted me to call because it happened today out of nowhere. I think he got upset today because there was something he was trying to help me with, which I didn't ask for, but that's fine, he wanted to help.

Okay, and I was just upset that I got charged a whole lot more than what I thought. It's like the labor was like, "Wow," was $150, but the part was only $25. I said, "That's crazy, isn't it?" And I go, "You told me you called in there and it was $150." I go, "Isn't that crazy? They should have told you there was an additional $25 was for the part too." And boom. I don't appreciate anything, all I do is complain, you know, I just make up lies and I just go complain. And I said to him because this is crazy, and I just said, "Well, even let's say this was even true," I said, "You don't go anywhere with me."

Jackie Mac-Harris: You took the bait. So, when he was helping you and you weren't saying he did something wrong, it sounded like you were just out of curiosity and frustration calling the situation crazy and it triggered something in him.

Lisa: Correct, because I did let him know that, because he gets off topic a lot, and I said, "We're getting off topic. I never said I don't appreciate what they've done." I said, "I've been going here for years. They know me, I know them. They're a very, very good place, that's why I go there." I said, "All I was just sharing, like, that just threw me off. I was like, that's a lot of money."

Jackie Mac-Harris: Over the years of your relationship, have you shared when you didn't like things that he had done or said?

Lisa: No, not really.

Jackie Mac-Harris: You kept it in because sometimes people don't appreciate it when we are honest with them. When we say, "You know, that really hurt my feelings when you shared whatever that was," or "That tone was hard for me to take," which is maybe a healthy response. But oftentimes when we share our displeasures, people feel like we're being negative and we're putting them down.

If we are dissatisfied with a service we receive, people feel like if we say something that we're being ungrateful or maybe taking advantage. And there's a problem there in that we have a right to share our thoughts and our processes and our needs and do it with grace and being gentle about it. But some people can't, no matter how much grace you give, no matter how sweet your words are, some people can't handle anything that isn't, "Yes, you did a good job. Yes and thank you." If it's not "Yes and thank you," you're being negative and that says something to them about them and then they react. And so, his words and the way that he is speaking to you is coming out of his frustration. You have an understanding of why that is. That's why you guys aren't together. You've lived with something going on in that relationship that says the two of you don't see eye to eye. And so, I just wonder how much of what you're feeling is coming from inside of you and how much of it is his behavior. Do you have an idea?

Lisa: I don't know.

Jackie Mac-Harris: Do you have an idea if this is... because you said you've changed a lot, you've been doing a lot of work. And so, is this reaction to the things he's saying or noticing it more now, especially since you've had the loss over a couple of years ago and have been different? Are you now noticing something that maybe he has been all along?

Brian Perez: It's kind of like, have your eyes been newly opened and that perhaps he's been critical the whole time, you're just noticing it more now as you get healthier?

Lisa: No, no. We've had situations that have definitely come up through the years. It doesn't even matter what it is. I had shared something with him that's happened to a place that I go to, and some strange things have been happening, and he goes to that same place. So, today he was commenting on it and then he started picking at me. He goes, "Well, what do you want me to do with that? What did you want me to do?"

And it just goes—it's a constant. It kind of has been that way since we got together. That's why I tell him, I said, "Look," I said, "if you want to talk about what's actually going on, what truth is, then we can have a calm conversation." I said, "But you keep saying things that that isn't who I am." And I said, "Actually, maybe you don't know what to do because as hard as it is," I go, "you really don't know me. And I kind of don't know you."

Jackie Mac-Harris: So, you're just imagining the way that I was, I guess. But yet he'll support, like, there's times to say, "You have really changed." And I said, "Well, but you flip-flop. You can't say one thing and then say another. They don't go together."

Brian Perez: So, Lisa, there are a couple of guesses that we have with what's going on here. And this is pretty confusing because why that change in the last three years? Oddly, when a person gets sober or gets into recovery and starts living a cleaner life, that can be really upsetting for family members who disliked the substance use or disliked the unhealthy behavior before. But it disrupts the status quo, it disrupts the homeostasis when all of a sudden somebody gets real spiritual.

So, it could be he's reacting to that, it rubs him wrong, he doesn't like it. We know the gospel will divide families. But he might also be jealous, like, oh, you're off with a life now all of a sudden when you all have been living separated for all these years. He could also have an accumulation of hurt that he bottled up for the first 17 years and it just got to the point where it broke out three years ago, but he doesn't know how to do it in a healthy way, so instead he snips at you.

But a couple of other reasons we see a sudden change in character, it's almost always related to substance use, I'm sorry to say to an affair, or to pornography use, or like Jackie had said earlier, some medical physiological change because people just don't change out of nowhere for no reason. There's almost always a reason.

So, now what do you do about it? Well, I suggest you let him know when things are calmer, "I notice that you seem more frustrated with me lately, and honestly, even in the last couple of years. Can we talk about it? Because I want to understand." And if there's any willingness—you two have seemed to be able to keep a sort of friendly roommate relationship—if he's willing, go for that in that comfort circle style of listening. If he's not willing and he continues to mistreat you, then that's when you start to protect yourself by saying, "I don't like to be talked to that way. I'm going to leave the conversation when you treat me that way." And if that continues, then you put even more distance between the two of you, maybe even having to rearrange the living situation or the separated married status that you have right now. But try that invitation first to conversation.

Jackie Mac-Harris: I agree.

Brian Perez: All right, Lisa. Thank you for calling us today here on New Life LIVE. We recommend that you get the Take Your Life Back book from the newlife.com store. We've also got a course coming up, it begins January 29th. It's a 12-week course, one hour a week, called Take Your Life Back. You can find out more about it at newlife.com. Let's talk to Karen now, who is listening to us on Life Talk in Chattanooga. Welcome to New Life LIVE.

Karen: Thank you. It's really nice to talk to you. I've listened to your program for years and love what you all do.

Brian Perez: Thanks, Karen. Appreciate that. How can we help you today?

Karen: I'm calling about my brother. He is retired and I haven't been in his condo—he lives about three hours away—haven't been in his condo for several years because every time I mentioned the idea, he said he didn't have any place for me to sleep. So, I finally had to be there this week and he has become an extreme hoarder. There are just paths through his house and every surface is covered with stacks of things, and he can't throw anything away. He has an additional home that he's hung onto because he couldn't let go of it.

But it's become imperative for him to sell it, but he insists he has to go through everything over there and shred every piece of paper that has his address on it and in case he might find something he wants to keep. It's imperative for him to sell that home because in addition to all this, I have discovered in the last few years since we both have been retired and he's been in my home more, that he's very gullible and as a result of that, he has been scammed out of almost $400,000.

Brian Perez: $400,000?

Karen: Yes. Major parts of his retirement money.

Jackie Mac-Harris: So, in the state of California, we would call APS if someone was self-neglecting to the extent that it was harming them. Do you guys have a system there that can maybe provide him some services and so that he can get some help managing his finances? Because if he sells this house, then that—whatever he gets for the selling of that house—he now has access to and scammers then have access to. Do you guys have an Adult Protective Services organization that you can connect with?

Karen: We may have, I don't know, I'm not aware, I haven't looked into that. He has a financial advisor who finally figured out what was going on because he finally talked to me about—he's kind of been tying me around all over through years and he finally talked in circles to me about it and I asked him several times, "Are you being scammed?" "No, no." And he had a cousin that also asked him the same question, "No, no." But his financial advisor finally figured it out. I found out who his financial advisor was and called him and got the gist of it. So, we've been to him to talk about the situation. We have been to the FBI to report it and we have been to the IRS because he now owes a great quantity of taxes. And that's why he needs to sell this second home. He is functional. He takes care of himself personally. He is outgoing and doing—he's a very severe case of ADD and he's OCD. But he had a successful career.

Jackie Mac-Harris: The hoarding part, him needing someone to go through those things with him psychologically and help him...

Karen: Yeah, I'd like to find a counselor in his area, and I knew you all would be a great source for that.

Brian Perez: That's right. Thank you. I love it when our callers do my job for me and just remind all of our viewers and listeners that we are a great source for finding a counselor or finding a book to read in the newlife.com store, like Jackie was saying at the beginning of the show, that reading is so good: reading God's word, reading good Christian books that will help you grow. And we've got a lot of them there in the newlife.com store. So, Karen, stay on the phone. We want to continue talking to you for a little bit longer here on New Life LIVE. God bless you guys. Thanks for listening and watching today.

New Life: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

Brian Perez: In case you've just joined us, we're speaking with Karen, who called in for help for her brother, who's a hoarder. He's gullible, he's been scammed out of $400,000, he owes the IRS a ton of money. Man, Karen, thank you so much for calling today. What else—what other advice would we give to her?

Brian Perez: Karen, I'm wondering about his humility and awareness level. So, if you were to ask him a question like, "How would you let me help you?" how do you think he would answer that?

Karen: Well, he'd be slow about answering it, but he would come up with something. He's aware. He's very embarrassed about his situation. He won't let anybody come and do any of the repairs that need to be done because he's so embarrassed about it. He knows it's a problem. And I actually told him this week when I was there, I said, "You know, this is really a problem that you cannot throw anything away." I said, "I really think you need to see a counselor and talk out what's going on and help see if you can find out what the reason is for this." And he listened and took that from me. He didn't go negative or fight against that.

Brian Perez: Karen, he trusts you. And he let you inside the door. That says a lot.

Karen: Well, I think because of all the difficulties right now over his finances, he—you know, I had things I needed to go over. He's kept meticulous record, bank records, of these bank accounts. And so, I wanted to go through that and went through his tax forms. So, yeah, I have tried very hard to nurture and cultivate a safe, trusting relationship with him.

Brian Perez: It shows and it's bearing fruit. I think there are a couple of forms of help I would suggest you offer to him, and it's amazing that he's open to it. One would be to meet with a medical doctor. The other would be to meet with a psychiatrist or the doctor that prescribes medication for OCD or ADD. He got that diagnosis somehow, some way; someone was treating him for it.

Karen: No, nobody's treating him for it. I just know that because I have had so much experience with ADD and read on it. I've read Dr. Amen's books on it.

Jackie Mac-Harris: Well, and it sounds very much like ADHD, especially when you said he kept meticulous records because a lot of times ADHD is undercover organized. Like, if you pull the drawer out, everything's where it needs to be, but everything else is chaotic because the executive functioning parts of the brain are not online well.

Alice Benton: So, as you see the symptoms but he's never been formally diagnosed, asking if he's willing to start with a medical doctor and a psychiatrist and then the therapist. And I do suggest the medical doctor that be a priority. And I have found, Karen, that in all these situations of hoarding, there is a major legitimate emotional reason behind it. There's almost always a wound and the hoarding is a way to protect that wound from being further damaged, further hurt. It's not a technique that works well in the long run, but it is a protection from something. So, I want you to be very gentle and compassionate with him, holding that in mind that as it looks like, how could you have done this? Come on, how'd you let this get so out of control? I want you to keep a posture of there's a good reason why this has happened and we can find the way out together.

Karen: If we had time, I could tell you the reasons why.

Alice Benton: Okay, you know it. You have all the insight and awareness. What a loving sister you are to your brother. If you find that he's not as willing as he first seems, having a professional intervention might also be a step to take, but it doesn't sound like that's necessary at this point.

Jackie Mac-Harris: Well, and there is an organization in Chattanooga called Declutter Chattanooga.

Karen: He is not in Chattanooga. He's three hours away.

Jackie Mac-Harris: Oh, so he's not in the same place where you are. Okay. But if there's one in Chattanooga, there may be one where he is and so there is support. And we can help find a counselor if he'd be willing to have us help him find someone.

Brian Perez: Did you know about the hoarding before you went to his home?

Karen: Well, I was there 20 years ago. And at that time, the only thing was that where I saw some sign of it was his living room floor, there were boxes all over the living room floor. The rest of the house was okay at that time. And as I said, every time I'd ever asked about coming up, he'd just say, "Well, I don't have any place for you to sleep."

Brian Perez: Yeah, that was when you mentioned that, that's what got me thinking that maybe you didn't know that he was a hoarder until he—

Karen: I knew that's why he was saying that. And he had told me that it was worse. He's talked to me about it. He knows. He said how it used to be, and I then mentioned how it was, and he said, "Well, it's worse. It's worse." And I said he's embarrassed about it, he knows it's not right, but he just can't seem to deal with it.

Alice Benton: Karen, you said you know why his life got to this point. If you just named one of the historical traumas he went through that might have led to this, what would it be?

Karen: Oh, well, our mother's marriage to his father—he's my half-brother—was a chaotic marriage for years.

Alice Benton: I think that's wise to point to that, because when there is chaos in our own life, in our home, in our possessions, or in our emotions, it means there's been chaos on the inside, and likely we grew up with it too. So, you're just—you are the, I think, divinely appointed half-sister to him or stepsister to him because you have the love but you're also bringing truth and you see that he can't stay in this, but you have awareness and compassion. Thank you for being so good to your brother.

Brian Perez: Karen, God bless you. Thanks for calling into day.

Karen: All right, thank you very much for your time.

Brian Perez: All right, of course. We are here five days a week to talk to you guys about whatever it is that you're going through. We are New Life LIVE. If you've never heard of us before, you can go to our website, newlife.com. We've got so many resources there, so many workshops coming up, so many webinars. Jackie just did one last week on depression and, yeah, we just so appreciate you guys who have been with us from the beginning and for recommending us to your friends. And then when you call in and ask us your questions, we are here to give you great solid biblical advice. We'll recommend books and other resources and, of course, that you get into a closer relationship with the Lord. So, thank you so much for being with us today on New Life LIVE. We will continue the conversations. Stephen in Dallas, you will be up next when we come back from the break on New Life LIVE.

New Life: Today's podcast is brought to you by Club New Life supporters who give a monthly donation because they want to continue to offer help and hope in these very, very difficult places. To find out more about Club New Life, you can go to our website, newlife.com, or call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now if you're new to us, we drop an episode every weekday. We would love it if you would rate or write a review, which helps more people discover help and hope and helps us share wisdom with as many people as possible. Now let's listen to our counselors as they help people walk through life's hardest places. To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

Brian Perez: An new episode of the Every Man's Battle podcast dropped today. You'll hear JJ West and Doug Barnes continue their conversation about the role of empathy in sexual integrity recovery. Find it on your favorite podcast platform, at newlife.com, on the New Life Ministries YouTube channel, and now on the New Life app. The podcast is a great encouragement for men in recovery but does not replace doing the deep work with a therapist over the course of a weekend at the Every Man's Battle workshop. Registration is still open for the next workshop, which is this coming weekend. It starts Friday in Orange County. You can get all the details at newlife.com. I've had many spouses complain to me, "It seems like my partner is incapable of empathy." If you have heard that, been accused of that, or felt that way yourself, please listen to this podcast. You will learn so much. Again, it's at newlife.com or on our YouTube channel or wherever you get your podcasts. It's called Every Man's Battle. Let's talk to Stephen in Dallas, Texas, listening on KWRD. Hey, Stephen, thanks for calling in to New Life LIVE.

Stephen: Hello, how are y'all?

Brian Perez: Doing well, thanks. How are you?

Stephen: I'm doing great. Just enjoying this weather here in North Texas. It's cold, 90 and then like 20 one day. It's like it doesn't know what it wants to do.

Jackie Mac-Harris: Ours is flipping back and forth but not that bad. We're more 50s to 80s.

Stephen: Yeah, you don't know whether to wear shorts or hoodies.

Brian Perez: We wear two tank tops when it gets really cold, you know. How can we help you, Stephen?

Stephen: So, I guess to just jump the question right out there since there's a lot of background story to it, the main question is—and I want to try to make sure I word this right and it not sound mean or bad—is the fact that if you're in a relationship where one wants to stop the marriage and one doesn't. But at the same time, it's been going on for over six months now and there's looks like promise at times and then sometimes absolutely none, which then there's been lawyers hired and papers served but no court appearances yet.

But at the same time, I don't want to say manipulation or being used because I firmly want to and I still believe that my incoming money is ours because it's my wife and I want to make her happy and I want to support her in every which way there is. But it's sometimes, no matter how hard I pray about it, I have conflicting stuff going on and it's hard to see how it's like wanting one thing in one hand and then wanting this whole other thing in the other hand: to support and financially but wanting isolation in this other side, but there's no compromise there to even trying to heal.

Brian Perez: And Stephen, are you the only income earner?

Stephen: No, and that's another deal of it. Is like that part of the income she completely separated it from everything. Like she doesn't do anything toward any utilities, any bills, nothing, zero, zilch. And but I—it's not an issue in the way of financial problems. But it's—I feel in my heart that sometimes I'm hindering for her to see some of the things that she's not going to have because she's getting the best of both worlds.

Brian Perez: Like your provision is keeping her from the consequences of the divorce that she's already begun.

Stephen: Yeah, and because I want her happy, but I just feel like if I do say something and try to stop anything, then it's going to flare up the divorce thing and push it through. And because I'm a firm believer that obviously supernatural things can happen and prayer and God will stop it. I mean, I was not a good person, so I led up to this, but it takes both of us. I do understand that. I was not, like, physically, nothing like that. I was just not an emotional supporter for my family, not there, and I was very loud, angry all the time. But I feel that I have really accepted the Lord for everything and there's a difference this time around, if that makes sense.

Jackie Mac-Harris: Have you done therapy?

Stephen: I see a counselor every—well, try to every single week for myself. And I have discussed this matter once on this part, but this is something that's fresh that's been eating at me over the last week is reason why it's kind of fresh. And I just heard y'all's program for the first time yesterday.

Jackie Mac-Harris: Well, welcome. Glad to have you. And look at that, you just heard us yesterday and called in already. We love it.

Brian Perez: And then there's people that have been listening to us for 30 years and have never called. Which is fine, we're not judging. Just keep listening.

Stephen: Well, I was so against counseling and that's something I didn't like when my wife tried to do it. But I got a whole new perspective. I mean, the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, I mean, I don't even hardly cuss anymore. I try not to at all. I don't get mad about anything lately. I get upset, my feelings hurt.

Jackie Mac-Harris: But you don't respond the same way. Did you used to have like rageful outbursts? Like yelling and screaming?

Stephen: Well, what I found out that I did was I got really aggressive, angry, loud, and verbal, quick, fast to shut it down. Because I hated arguing. I hated it because I've seen my parents do it for so many years as a kid. And I didn't like it, so I felt like I needed to stop it immediately and that's the way that it got stopped was by doing that, but I was emotionally also breaking down my kids and my spouse.

Jackie Mac-Harris: Yeah, you were stopping yourself from hearing what they had to say and making them feel like what they had to say wasn't important to you because it caused you pain.

Stephen: And that's why they never would open up to me. I mean, they quit—they would not talk to me at all.

Jackie Mac-Harris: It wasn't safe to talk to you because every time they go to talk to you, if it was something that made you upset, then you'd shut it down and feel like, "Well, this is going to turn into something" because you're flooded. Are you—you said that you're in counseling. Have you been dealing with this issue in counseling, your divorce? Are you walking through the divorce and maybe the anger management stuff with your counselor?

Stephen: Yes. And that's why I think when I first accepted starting to walk back with the Lord and read my Bible daily back in July, you know, at the first couple months, I could still tell it was me being selfish. It was all me trying to do it, me, me. But the last three to four months, there's been a massive change. I mean, it's like the Holy Spirit grabbed a hold of me and I—and I just—it's a difference, a massive difference.

Brian Perez: And Stephen, how long have you been married?

Stephen: 11 years in August, this past August.

Brian Perez: And so your kids are little.

Stephen: He's ten. We got six kids, we got a blended family, but we got a ten-year-old together.

Brian Perez: And so you know that three to four months is a very short amount of time for her and for your children. It's like nothing compared to the years that your anger was so big and so scary. And so it's everything for you that you've had a great three to four months, your life has changed. But it's a drop in the bucket for her; she might not even notice.

Jackie Mac-Harris: I was going to say, they probably don't even feel it because the change has happened internally for you. And it's a beautiful thing, but your change doesn't affect them yet.

Stephen: Yeah. And see, at first I was trying to push the change on them like in July and August. But then something just woke me up one day and it told me, "Quit doing this. And what are you doing? You need to focus on yourself. You're worried about how they see you. Focus on you and your relationship with God." And that's where I did, and I didn't say anything.

And my kids and other people recognized it and said, "Hey, Dad's acting weird. He's different." It was a good kind of weird. And I've recently asked them straight to their faces and I said, "Listen, I don't want to get complacent ever again because we get blinders on, we don't realize what we do." And I asked them, I go, "So, have y'all noticed me? Have I reacted bad to you guys lately, yelled?" and they said no. They said that you've been kind. You've—now when there's something that happens, you actually talk calmly, don't get loud. You handle it different. So, they've made it clear to me that they seen a change, and I was like, "You know, that made me feel good." Because I'm not trying to show people and point it out there and boast about my changing. I'm trying to—I'm still building my own relationship because I've still got struggles that I'm going to God about every single morning now and night and throughout the whole day.

Brian Perez: And yet you also feel an urgency that as the divorce process is midway, you wonder, "But how do you get my wife to see the better man that I am today?" So, we've got more for you about that. And part of it's going to be making amends and showing, not in your words so much as in your actions, the kind of man that God's helping you to be now. So, Stephen, congratulations on the last three to four months of growth. I mean, that's awesome. But like Jackie and Alice said, you know, considering you guys have all been together for 11 years, I mean that three to four months isn't a whole lot of time. But keep going, don't let that discourage you. We've got more words of wisdom for you from Jackie and Alice when we come back here on New Life LIVE. So glad you found us, brother. Keep on listening to this radio station because we've got more for you in the next several years.

New Life: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

Brian Perez: Do you have a few more minutes for us, Stephen?

Stephen: Yes, sir.

Brian Perez: Oh, good. Go ahead, Alice.

Alice Benton: Stephen, I'm of the mind that there are still amends to be made here. And so, as I think you were wondering whether or not to pull back funds because she is pursuing a divorce, I think, unless God tells you otherwise, I think you're in a period of doing everything you can to show the kind of man that you've become. Now, I hope she has the patience to wait and see that, but you have to be braced that she may not or that it may take longer for her to come to believe it.

But one way to help the process along is to ask if you can talk with her. You're mainly going to be her listener. And I'd have you tell her, "I need to admit I mistreated you our entire marriage and you tried to get us to help and I wouldn't go. And so, if you want to leave now, you have the reasons for wanting to leave and I put you in this position. But I do want a chance. I want to fight for our marriage. I want to fight for our children. And I am a changing man and I want to show that to you. Not just tell you, but I want to show it to you. Would you, would you give me some time? Would you come to some therapy with me so that I can prove that to you?" If you were to ask that of her now, what do you think she would say?

Stephen: She would say no. I have asked her that of recently whenever I came to a different type of communicative person where I'm calmer and I'm more of—I'm able to listen now. Now we've had some good conversations, but she said that it's just one of those things that it's gone too far to where she's not in a place to do it because she's going to counseling as well.

Alice Benton: So, then I would take her no, and I would fast, pray, keep doing your weekly sessions, and maybe even attend group. If you were with a group of men, like one of our New Life recovery groups, because even though she said no, she's still there and I think you have a chance to show a difference in your behavior. That "no" might change because of what you're doing spiritually and in your sanctification work, what you're doing on the side.

Brian Perez: I'm glad the communication has improved, Stephen, but I think what you guys are alluding to is the Comfort Circle, where he needs to be more of a listener. And we're not saying that you're not, Stephen, but give a brief overview of what the—maybe you two can even model the Comfort Circle right now.

Jackie Mac-Harris: The Comfort Circle is a great tool. It's a way to hear a person's heart and self-regulate at the same time because often when people share that they are dealing with something, it's causing them stress, something in the relationship or something their person has done, the other person doesn't like hearing it and we get reactive.

And the Comfort Circle keeps the listener regulated because you've got to read this script and ask these questions and remember what they're saying. And so, going through the Comfort Circle allows one person to have the floor and the other person to dig in a little bit more in a way that most of us aren't typically doing. We're not conditioned to ask someone, "Tell me three feelings that you have, three emotion words that you have because of this issue," and then to ask where that shows up in the body and how it feels and does it change your breathing or anything. What were the consequences? What was the behavior that happened because you were feeling that way?

These aren't things we think about when we're sharing with someone something that's frustrating us. We don't tell them, "Yeah, I was—when you let the trash can overflow, I felt disrespected and then I left the house and I didn't want to talk to you for days." We don't give space for that, but the Comfort Circle makes room for it.

And then it goes as far as to even look at history. Let's talk about a time you've experienced this in the past. Tell me a story about when you felt these same feelings. And then that usually opens up something for people to look back in their history and go, "Oh, well, when I was a child, I was in charge of trash, that was my job and I always got in trouble because the trash was always overflowing even though it wasn't my fault and I felt very much like nobody cared."

And so, now you see it coming together. The young part of you is responding in the present to the present situation, but it's because of this old historical wound. And now the listener, the partner, has an opportunity to offer comfort and care and compassion. I personally, in the Comfort Circle experience, saw my husband differently in that moment when I could see the nine-year-old version of him struggling with that. So, now the situation happens, he doesn't react because he now sees the nine-year-old. I don't react because I see the nine-year-old and more often than not, I'll do the thing because I'm thinking of caring for the little boy. And so, I love the Comfort Circle. I think it gives the speaker an opportunity to be heard and the listener new insight to their partner and an opportunity to show grace.

Brian Perez: So, Stephen, if Jackie and I play this out just a little bit for you, and if I was your wife and I responded to that invitation that I worded for you, I might say to you, "You burned me out. I tried so many times to get you to see what was happening, you would just blow up every single time. So, I don't trust you and no, I'm not going back to therapy with you."

Jackie Mac-Harris: I hear what you're saying. Can you tell me what that makes you feel? Can you give me some emotion words?

Alice Benton: I don't even know that I want to tell you, but scared. I'm scared to be in conversation with you, so I don't want to go into therapy.

Jackie Mac-Harris: It's a scary thing. When you think about how scared you are about this, what would you say it is? How high, how deep? On a scale of zero to ten. Zero, not scared at all, ten, I've never been more terrified.

Alice Benton: 20.

Jackie Mac-Harris: That's a lot. Does it show up in your body in any way? Like, how is it affecting you? Is it affecting you physically or mentally?

Alice Benton: Neck pain, back pain. I feel horrible.

Jackie Mac-Harris: It's just impacting your body. What about behavior? What happened when—when I responded that way and made you feel scared?

Alice Benton: The kids and I would go hide.

Jackie Mac-Harris: And the consequences of that is what?

Alice Benton: I'm not going to therapy with you.

Jackie Mac-Harris: And that's how we got here. Have you ever felt that feeling before, that feeling of being scared, maybe not listened to?

Alice Benton: Yeah, you know my parents were loud and my past marriage was really rough, which is why I hoped and thought you were going to be better than that.

Jackie Mac-Harris: Yeah. How much would you say, thinking about that, how much would you say your problems, the feeling of being scared, how much of it is based on what's going on between us and how much of it is based on the past marriage and your childhood?

Alice Benton: I want to say 100% you. But as you ask the question, it's probably more like 70/30.

Jackie Mac-Harris: It's still something. There's still something there. What would help? When you feel this way in those situations, what do you need from me?

Alice Benton: I need space. I need to see that you can be quiet and not yell at all of us and scare us.

Jackie Mac-Harris: You need space. So, when you're trying to share your feelings and I get all riled up and scary and loud, and you start to feel it in your body, even if it takes you back to thinking about the past, what you need from me is for me to be quiet and safe. Creating that quietness would create a sense of safety.

Alice Benton: That's right.

Jackie Mac-Harris: I can do that. I'm learning. I'm learning to do that. Can I ask one thing? In the time where maybe I—something happens, it catches me off guard and I maybe start to raise my voice, can you ask me for a do-over? If you start to feel scared because of how I'm responding, can you just say, "Hey, do you want a do-over?" That will remind me and get me back as I'm—as I'm learning, because I've got to practice this. But I understand what you're saying. My behavior has caused you harm. It has scared you and made it hard for you to talk to me and the best thing I can do is to soften and be quiet when you're trying to share with me.

Alice Benton: I'm hesitant, but I'll try.

Jackie Mac-Harris: Thank you. I appreciate that.

Brian Perez: Notice in all that that the listener, Jackie, was not accusatory. "Well, the reason I do that is because you do—" nothing. It was just all about listening. So, Stephen, thanks for calling in today. There's a book in the newlife.com store called How We Love, the details, the Comfort Circle a little bit more, and it will definitely be helpful. And we also encourage you to continue doing your own work. Keep reading your word as well. Thank you so much for finding us. Thank you for calling into today to New Life LIVE. And thank you all for financially supporting what we do here at New Life. You can give towards our mission, towards our work, by going to our website, newlife.com. We'll talk to you tomorrow here on New Life LIVE with our special guest, Dr. Henry Cloud.

New Life: Thanks so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember, we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to newlife.com to find out more information. And thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing and we're so glad that you're here.