New Life LIVE

New Life: Welcome to the New Life Live podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God’s word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let’s go to today’s episode.

Becky Brown: Yes, we do want to hear from you. My name is Becky Brown and I am joined today by Dr. Jill Hubbard and Chris Williams and we are going to answer your questions. But first, we want to hear from you, Jill. I want to know what’s on your mind. What are you thinking about these days?

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Oh, just all kinds of things, Becky. But what I’m going to talk about today is the idea of character development using the idea of, or the tool of, habit stacking. Our character is established by our behavior, not our ideals. True character is usually revealed by the choices we make under pressure. The greater the pressure, the more that gets revealed about our essential nature, who we really are.

Therefore, our character development happens through our habits. The good thing is that God has given us the capacity to develop character or to form character, which is that internal structure, that inner self, and it’s expressed through our long-term patterns of behavior, thus our habits. So, our habits can keep us stuck or our habits can help us move forward. Often, true change happens at the level of our habits. Our habits are so automatic that we just naturally go to them.

Hebb’s rule of neurology is that neurons that fire together, wire together. So we need to add new neural pathways, which is much easier than trying to extinguish the old ones. As we add in some good habits, it helps to drown out the negative habits and it gives us more freedom.

The idea of habit stacking is when you identify a habit that you already do and then you add another one to it. You maybe just start developing one new habit or doing one new thing a day, but you pair it with something. It can be really simple things or it can be deeper, more meaningful things.

For example, every morning when I first wake up, I have to take a thyroid pill. So I take the pill before I allow myself to brush my teeth because I really want to brush my teeth first thing. That’s how I’ve learned to take the pill because I brush my teeth. I’ve paired those habits together.

Last time we were together, I mentioned sleep. If I’m having difficulty sleeping, I pair it with a pastor’s soothing voice and I listen to something. Then I know it’s time to nod off. I often listen to God’s word while I’m getting ready for work because I have to do that. So I’m going to have something meaningful while I’m preparing to leave. Little habits add up to a lot. Think about what habit you need to add to your life to help you create change. What are you desiring? What do you want? Think about adding that one constructive habit and pairing it with something that you already do.

Chris Williams: I think that that is spot on. You’re speaking to me right now because there are two habits where I haven’t been perfect with it, but I’ve found the results have been fairly profound. I’ve always been sporadic with journaling, but I found four prompts that I do on a daily basis.

I’ve also just gotten back into moving my body 20 minutes a day, so exercise for 20 minutes a day. You’re right; I pair them with other things. My exercise I pair with time with God. Journaling is also a form of prayer but centering. Those two things have already produced so much positive result in my life.

Becky Brown: I love that. You could pair listening to New Life Live and walking. That works too. To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today’s program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

I told you that we were going to answer some calls and answer some calls we are going to do. We are going to talk with Amber who is calling us from Pensacola and watches us on YouTube. Hello, Amber. Thanks for calling and thanks for watching. How can we help you today?

Amber: Yes, I’m calling because I am very insecure of myself. I’m insecure of myself as far as I’m not married, I don’t have any children, and I feel less than a woman sometimes because everybody around me is getting married and having children.

I work at a job where I’m doing print work and working on this lady’s wedding invitations and so forth. It’s a lot. My co-worker is about 10 years younger than me. She’s getting married in April and I just feel so much of a leftover. I’m 32. I realize that I’m running out of time.

Even when I was in my 20s, I tried really hard to meet people. Sometimes I didn’t try because my mother was being very verbally and emotionally abusive. Being picked on in high school, a lot of negative things were said to me by people in high school and my mother that I would never meet anybody. They wouldn’t say it like that, but they would say it in another way that I can’t say on air because it’s very bad.

I’ve always just really fantasized about being married and having my own children, but I wasn’t taught how to value relationships. I wasn’t taught what was important in this world besides a job. I hate my mother because she didn’t teach me how to be a woman or anything like that. She was more like a bully than being a mother.

Becky Brown: Amber, we can hear the pain and we know a lot of times the things that we’re told when we’re younger get stuck in our head and that becomes the story that we have. How can we help you the most today, Amber? What’s the best question that you want the answer to?

Amber: I’m just very insecure and envious of other women that have what I don’t have. Just a family of my own.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Amber, at 32, you are falling into what so many women do fall into because the 20s, late 20s, girls are getting married, girls are having babies, and if you're not part of that earlier crowd, you can start to feel like "what's wrong with me?" Honestly, Amber, when I first heard you talking, I thought you were at least 10 years older, 42. So I hear how down you are and how down on yourself you are.

Obviously to the rest of us, 32 is young and certainly lots of potential for having a family and getting married. It starts to go down the older you are, like mid-40s, it starts to go down. But this belief that you have—and I’m wondering how much even the stuff people said to you in high school, how much you believed that even if, again, we’ve talked about how cognitively you may know it’s not true, but in your heart of hearts, you’re kind of living out that they said you would never meet anyone.

You’re holding on to this anger at your mom, which I understand. There’s a lot of resentment there. But here’s the thing. As an adult, no matter what happened to you as a kid, it’s now your responsibility to take hold of your life and do it differently. I know that’s way easier said than done. The stuff your mom did to you was not okay and there’s a lot of hurt there that has to be grieved and worked through. But at the same time, she doesn’t get to still own you in that way.

Chris Williams: Well, and I think that that’s what becomes so difficult is that the behaviors that people show us about ourselves become the lenses in which we see ourselves in the world. So, Amber, it’s obvious that you’ve been a victim of relational and verbal abuse and that has had real impacts in your life.

I would love because here’s the thing—let me back this up a second. This is going to sound kind of mean, but it’s not meant to be. It’s just true. A husband and children will not solve your problem. It won’t do it. In fact, let me take it a step further. It’ll actually exacerbate the problem because intimacy exposes what’s already inside of us.

Now, you aren’t the problem. The problem was something that was put on you that you need to let go of and learn to work through. That’s where I can’t recommend therapy enough for where you’re at and what you’re dealing with in your life right now. The other aspect of that is I really want to encourage you to get into a women’s Bible study. I want you around other women to build intimacy and connection. Not to compare yourself to because the truth is, the three of us sit with other women who are married and have children and are just as miserable.

Their circumstances and their details may be different, but the solution to their problem was not a family. Again, I want to make also this clear: what I want for you, Amber, is a great marriage and a great family. I really want that for you. But what you’re dealing with is a primary negative belief about yourself that’s impacting everything and not having children and not having a husband is lighting it on fire.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: You’re using that as the measuring stick of you’re not valuable unless you have these things. You’re not good enough, you don’t matter, you’re less than, which is a reflection of those voices that you heard about yourself earlier in life. Therapy will help you remove those voices so when you believe something different about yourself, guess what? Other people start believing something different about you as well.

Amber: I’m in therapy now and I’m in this life recovery group with a lady here. But I still feel lonely because I didn’t get the love and affection from my dad because my mom was so selfish. There have been times where my mom would be like, "Well, why you just can't go be like other girls?" My mom started having children at 15 and I wasn't the type to be promiscuous or anything like that.

Becky Brown: Are you the first daughter, Amber?

Amber: No, I’m the youngest out of seven.

Chris Williams: Amber, I have a question. Is the way that your mom has lived her life a life you want to emulate?

Amber: No, because she’s been deceased for four years and I was pretty much with her from birth up to 28 years old.

Chris Williams: So if it’s not a life you want to emulate or follow, what’s an internal boundary? It means that then her voice doesn’t get to tell you how to live your life.

Amber: I know, she just brought me down.

Becky Brown: That’s where we want other women in your life to be able to come around you and build you up. That’s so important to do before because it’ll influence the type of person you would even pick. If you’re feeling bad about yourself, the tendency is to take anyone who’s interested instead of being more selective and picking someone who would treat you well.

It goes back to what you said, Chris, on another show where the story she keeps telling herself is not the correct story. But I also wonder, Amber, I hear that you are dealing with some depression. I hear that in your voice and I just didn't know if you've ever been treated for depression as well because sometimes our mood does inform our thoughts and our thoughts inform our mood and it’s just this cycle. With your mother being passed away, I really want you to thrive in these years and that’s going to be part of that grieving process. That’s a strong statement to say I hate my mother for what she did. That means that the energy that you could have for you and your healing is going in a different direction.

Amber: I am depressed. I’ve been depressed for a long time. When I just get sad, I indulge in food.

Becky Brown: So that’s the medicine you’re using, but I think it might be really helpful to get an assessment so that you can get some help. It’s not for ever, but you just need a kick-start. Man, so many times we don’t know that we can use that help until we get it. What the food does for you, Amber, is it shuts down those feelings. It keeps you from feeling and it kind of can be some glue that holds you together in the midst of so much pain.

Well, we are glad that you called. I’m glad, Amber, that you are getting the help that you need, but I would encourage you to start with a primary care doctor to do a complete history exam. Maybe then the next step would be a psychiatrist to get some support medically. It’s not for ever and I know a lot of people are like, "I don’t want to take medicine," but I don’t want you to struggle in this cycle for very long. I’m glad that you have that support that you talked about. Everybody pray for Amber when you think about it.

Now we’re going to go to our next caller. Gracia is in North Richland Hills, Texas. Hello, Gracia. Thank you for calling. How can we help you today?

Gracia: So my question is, how do I stop being addicted to creativity? Because I am having actual symptoms of withdrawal when I don’t do it. I feel like I’m too much while still being too little. I hate myself for being too much and too ignorant yet too small and insignificant.

I don’t know what to do. I’ve gone to my psychiatrist. I’ve been to psychiatric wards four times in my life since I was 13. I went to the ER just the other day. They said nothing was wrong. The psychiatrist said you’re just having a bad week. I don’t know what to do to get away from this addiction because I love art, I’m passionate for it, and it’s an important integral part of my life. But I’m genuinely addicted to it. I have 100% symptoms of addiction and the withdrawal symptoms. I can’t get away from it. I can’t sleep, I can’t get rest, I can’t do anything because I’m addicted. It’s like I’m on ADHD or drugs all the time and I never take drugs. I don’t even really drink coffee that much. I only drink alcohol like very small amounts, like a few sips every so often. This is an addiction; I don’t know how I get away from it.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Gracia, what do you create?

Gracia: I create everything. I create music, I create dance, I create drawings, I create paintings, I create embroidery, sewing. Everything you can think of, I create.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Does it have a manic quality to it?

Gracia: Yes, I have bipolar type one or schizophrenia, we’re not sure.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: I wondered about that because you said you’ve been hospitalized four times. Do they have you on bipolar medication, mood stabilizers?

Gracia: Yes, I have been on many, many different types of bipolar medication, including Risperdal, but I do not take that anymore. I take mirtazapine and olanzapine and I’m just... I don’t know what to do. My personal psychiatrist said we’re just going to put you on Unisom and then you just take your normal amounts like normal. But then I went to the psychiatric ward and they gave me a different opinion and said stop taking the Unisom, we’re just going to up your dose of mirtazapine and olanzapine. But the problem is that I told her I don’t have any side effects to those and the side effects of those are weight gain and sleep, but they aren’t helping with sleep because I never have manic support.

Becky Brown: Gracia, hold on. We get a break coming up and we hear the challenges that you’re facing. I hear you are seeking help and trying to do everything possible to get the relief. We want to help you in any way that we can. It just goes to show you that it is such a complex issue, but we want to have some help and some peace for you so that you can create and you can enjoy your life. We’ll be right back with the callers and we’ll continue with Gracia after this break.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today’s program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Welcome back. We are talking with Gracia. She has had a lot of challenges with finding help and getting relief. Gracia, we had just a couple questions that Jill had for you.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: I had a question, Gracia. I’m wondering right now—you’re very sped up in your speech. I’m wondering if you have times where you are not in a manic phase.

Gracia: There are definitely times like that where I’m very calm and chill and I’m not in that one right now.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: So she does have times in between. So when she gets worried about being addicted to this creativity and when it’s non-stop creativity, that’s her manic phase.

Chris Williams: I really think so. There is something very akin to addiction, but what she’s referring to is OCD. More of a manic OCD. Well, let’s just stick with there is an obsession with creativity and a compulsion in that obsession. She feels she has to do it. She can't not do it, and when she’s in those phases, what she’s calling withdrawal is a great disruption inside of her.

Having the right label I think is important in the sense that we understand what it is. Especially when you’re showing up at the doctor and you’re wanting them to cure something that they may not quite be seeing. One of the heartbreaking things about manic episodes is a lot of people will see the productivity or they will see the speech or lack of connection to reality. What it is is your internal world has just been lit on fire and it’s pushing you in a very specific direction.

Often times what Gracia is experiencing is the fear, a paranoia fear that goes along with it. That fear doesn’t have an actual threat, so it makes one up. But it feels real to her. So the fear has attached itself to this word addiction as a reason for everything that’s going on. Whereas mood stabilization and management of the manic and the depressive episodes—and she might be more of the hypomanic where she doesn’t drop into depression, she remains more calm—but managing the mania is what’s really important here.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: And when you go to the ER, they’re mainly going to do symptom reduction. Just whatever they can do the fastest to get you stabilized. That may be a different protocol because often ERs have a different protocol than when you go in the hospital and you’re on the floor; then they have a different protocol. And your outside doctor. So if you have confidence in your outside doctor, I would stick with his protocol and see if that’s working for you. If he’s adding in a medication or upping something or changing it to help level you out during these times, then that would be worth a try.

Chris Williams: The truth of the matter is that practicing out here in Southern California, I can say that there are plenty of songs and scripts and beautiful art and beautiful creativity that have been products of manic processes or episodes. So let’s not discount the fact that the art that you’re creating can be and probably is incredible and beautiful and productive. But we also don’t want you to be tortured in the process.

Becky Brown: Which can be distressing. That goes back to the obsessive-compulsive behavior; it just drives you. But we hope, Gracia, that some of what we’ve talked about is helpful. We understand how challenging it is to get good help. We get that. But there’s one key principle here that is somewhat helpful. It’s what I refer to with people who are struggling with panic attacks or panic episodes. Panic attacks are horrible. They’re awful. They’re torturous. But there’s one good thing about them: they always end. There’s always an expiration on it. It’s the same with manic episodes, especially in Gracia’s case. Those may last a little longer than panic attacks for sure, but they will end. Again, we want treatment so you don’t have to be tortured by it forever.

Well, we’re glad you called, Gracia, and we’ll be praying for this journey. It’s really challenging when you’re dealing with lots of different things for a long time, but I know that we are learning all the time new things. So we are praying for that next step. We’re going to go back to the calls. We’re going to talk to Debbie who’s calling us from Atlanta and watches us on YouTube. Thanks for calling, Debbie. How can we help you today?

Debbie: It’s been an ongoing struggle with my husband of 10 years. We are not able to resolve conflict regarding anything that I’m unhappy about in our relationship. If I try to bring it up, he will just say he doesn’t want to talk about it or he would say he would talk about it later. I bring it up in a very calm, not threatening way. I believe he is carrying a lot of shame because of some addiction issues which come and go.

Becky Brown: Debbie, have you guys seen a counselor? Have you worked with a counselor at all?

Debbie: We worked with a counselor at the beginning of our marriage with adult children issues and that was good. But not in this second marriage, and he’s refusing to go.

Becky Brown: And his addictions, what are they?

Debbie: Alcohol. He’ll come home at night and have a couple drinks and then he’s done. And then sporadic porn.

Becky Brown: Hello, it’s Becky Brown. I am so excited to launch our 99 for the 1 partner initiative. Every day we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They’ve been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression—all kinds of ways. It reminds us of the story in Luke 15 where the shepherd leaves the 99 to go rescue the one. We’ve seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99 for the 1 is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE or newlife.com/99for1.

Welcome back. We are talking with Debbie who’s calling us from Atlanta. This is a marriage struggle, which we hear about so many times, but each one of them has its own complexity. Before we left for the break, Debbie was talking about how they can’t have conversations that are meaningful and problem-solving without a big conflict. Chris, you want to start?

Chris Williams: Debbie, you had mentioned his use of alcohol and porn. Let’s just recognize this. There’s no ability to resolve conflict because the conflict is already resolved inside of him. Any conflict that he experiences will be resolved through the use of a medicator. You’re probably right in saying that he deals with a lot of shame, he’s dealing with a lot of internal struggles inside of him.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Basically he can’t tolerate it. You keep trying to open up the conversation and his MO is to shut everything down. Because when you resort to these solutions, your goal is no pain, no conflict. It’s not "let’s work it through." So you guys are at completely different spots.

Chris Williams: So the point of all of this is that to try to resolve conflict in the midst of these active addictive devices is kind of a fool’s errand. It just doesn’t work until the addictive issues are addressed.

Debbie: The alcohol is like maybe just two drinks just to kind of get when he comes home from work. So it’s not like he’s sloshy drunk or anything, but he’s definitely altered. He is altered. And the porn use is not all the time. He’ll say I’m not doing it right now.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Debbie, it doesn’t matter because the addictive brain is still in that mode. It’s still not free of it. Frequency doesn't matter and he is having two drinks every night. He’s self-medicating daily.

Chris Williams: The point of that is simply because you’re participating in the minimization of the addictive process and not understanding what’s really going on. Because those two drinks have already significantly decreased his ability to engage in authentic conversation. Doing that over time, we’ve got to look at it as there’s a continual diminishing. Same with porn. He may be doing a great job of managing the unmanageability of his addiction and that gives the facade that it’s not that big of a deal, I can still function. But the truth of the matter is when it comes to authentic intimacy, functional addict or functional alcoholic is not a thing. It’s a mythology; it doesn’t exist because it blocks the ability to relate in a deeper, intimate way.

Debbie: I’ve done a lot of listening to podcasts and learning all about both of those things. So my struggle now is—and this is the first time I’m standing my ground and not caving—because he’s not in that, he is an amazing husband in so many ways, but I want an intimate, authentic, truthful relationship. When I’m standing my ground now, so it’s been miserable for a while, as far as sleeping with him because I do have a fear he’s going to do other things if I’m not sleeping with him. But I’ve said if you’re not going to look me in the eye, if you’re not going to have kind words, then I’m not going to sleep with you. But this is what I need from you. And he’s not able to do that. But how long or how does it just get worse? Or he gets worse? I’m trying to set a healthy boundary and I am working towards maybe doing the intensive. I’m looking into that. I’m not letting it go this time.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: I think that’s good. Instead of bringing up the actual content of the conflict, you have to step back and you have to start talking about talking. I notice when I bring something up that you want to shut it down. I’m fearing that you’re maybe receiving it as criticism. He’s hearing something that he can’t tolerate and so he shuts it down. I’ve listened to how to talk to them and make them not feel inadequate. It doesn’t matter. He’s resistant to even have any conversation and then he’ll say, "Okay, I’ll talk. Let’s sit down." And it’ll be on Saturday or it won’t be when he’s had anything to drink. He doesn’t drink all the time, it’s just in the evenings. Very functional, very fun in general, but he absolutely shuts it down and says we don’t have a problem. There’s no problem. I know that’s not true. I said, "You don’t have a problem. I do."

Becky Brown: Debbie, how long have you been listening to us?

Debbie: Since my son was 36. On and off. I mean, I have several people I listen to.

Becky Brown: The reason why I’m asking that is because one of the tools that we talk about on here all the time is the Comfort Circle from *How We Love*. What it helps give structure to is the deep abyss that it feels like for your husband. Even though you say that you’re ready, you may not be as ready as you think you are. What I would suggest is to get a copy of *How We Love*; it’s got a Comfort Circle in it.

The challenge with couples in this situation is you don’t know what’s going on in his brain. You don’t know what he’s reacting to. You’re trying to control something that you can’t even see. We see this so many times with couples where we’re shocked at what is keeping the communication at bay. It’s because we can’t be mind readers. Your intentions are good, but then there’s this transactional thing that kicks in for your relationship. I know that he says he doesn’t want to do therapy again, but I can’t stress it enough. We’ve got great counselors in your area that can help you with that.

Chris Williams: I want to drive the crisis again. Debbie, there’s so much that I hear inside of you. You’re trying to control the uncontrollable. You’re trying to manage his unmanageability. But what you’re not doing is helping yourself. Because when he says we don’t have a problem and you say I do—no, if it’s your problem, it’s a problem. So the point of that is that I want you to get into your work. If he’s not going to do the work, you do the work. The work looks like that continuing aspect of: here are the things that work for me in the relationship and our marriage, here are the things that don’t. I’m no longer participating in the things that don’t.

With addicts, I would love for you to hear my boundary, but unfortunately you’re going to have to feel my boundary. It’s not until they feel the boundary that they feel you being like, "Hey, I’m not doing this." You’re trying to create the safest conditions possible for your husband to engage sexually with you. No, that goes the other way around. He’s doing nothing to create the safety for you. So you end up over-functioning and he gets to under-function and it keeps the problem alive until you say "no more."

Becky Brown: Here’s the thing about that, Debbie. If you are using your sex life to get some sort of behavior from him, that also is something that you have to work on because that’s not what that’s supposed to be. That’s supposed to be the culmination of safety and connection. What’s happened in your marriage is it’s off the rails right now. It’s manageable, obviously you guys have figured that out, but I think that there are so many things that are possible here. But it’s going to take some big steps in a different direction.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: And his resistance is often fear. He’s scared to do it differently when this works.

Debbie: Well, right. He says then—that’s when he brings up the divorce thing or that’s when he brings up that I’ll have an affair.

Becky Brown: He threatens you. We don’t have a whole lot of time, but Debbie, you need to go to our Intimacy in Marriage intensive. But in the meantime, we’ve got to get you with a counselor. I think that she needs to go to Restore. I really do. I think that Restore is the place to start here because it opens her eyes to what’s really going on. We’re glad you called, Debbie, and sorry that you’re going through this, but there is help. There’s hope. You’ve just got to do things just a little different than what you’ve tried on your own.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today’s program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Welcome back. You know, if you are stuck in addiction or grief, anxiety, broken relationships, you’re not alone. Obviously we hear that all the time. Do you know that we have New Life recovery groups globally? We have over 750, I think, globally. We have groups that meet in Denmark. If you need a group, we have people that are working every week to connect people because connection, redemptive relationships, is part of what we do here at New Life. Give us a call, go to liferecoverygroups on newlife.com and you’ll see where they’re all located. I just can’t say enough about being in community. That’s one of our core beliefs, our core values here at New Life and we’ve been helping people get connected for many years.

Right now we’re going to go back to the calls and we are going to talk with Jay. Jay is calling us from Bayfield, Colorado. Thanks for calling, Jay. How can we help you today?

Jay: I’ve been divorced for about five years now, five to six years. And I started dating this girl. She’s younger than I am, but I just feel like I don’t know how to explain it. It’s like today, I was doing a job for her and she didn’t call to tell me about the parts and stuff and she got with someone else. I just feel like she’s not really putting me first and I think that’s a problem because she has told me in the past that if she gets mad at a guy in a relationship, she just goes somewhere else. So that’s got me concerned too.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Is she mad at you?

Jay: No, I don’t think she’s mad at me.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: And are you guys dating exclusively?

Jay: Yes, we are.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: So when you say she got with someone else, in terms of the work that you were going to do for her, like she hired someone else to do it?

Jay: No, she just asked somebody else about the job instead of letting me know what was going on. Maybe I’m overthinking it, I don’t know.

Becky Brown: She wasn’t trusting your judgment. She needed more info herself. Is that how you were feeling?

Jay: That’s what I felt. Yes.

Becky Brown: And she didn’t say that to you, Jay. She just went and did this. I think there’s a big red flag here when she says, "When I make up my mind, I just go away," or if she gets mad, she just told you who she is. I don’t know how long you’ve been dating, but that is a red flag for me all the way around.

Chris Williams: What she’s really saying is I don’t do conflict.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: And I base everything on my feelings.

Chris Williams: On the surface, Jay, I would definitely tell you you’re overthinking this one. She got a second opinion, who cares? You don’t want your own ego to get in the way of I’ve got to be right and in control of this situation because it’s my expertise or I want her to think that I’m this great expert on the subject. But underneath it, it feels like you’re calling today because there’s a trust issue in the relationship. Would you agree with that?

Jay: Yes.

Chris Williams: What do you distrust in her?

Jay: For one, what she has said to me, what she has told me.

Chris Williams: You might want to believe her in that. The foundation of any relationship, any significant relationship, has to have the rich, firm soil of trust that’s built over time. If it’s not there, you’re going to have toxins in the soil that undermine the quality of relationship the entire time.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: And Jay, I think what you heard in her getting the second opinion is her lack of trust. Then she’s telling you her exit strategy when she no longer trusts. Her lack of trust is causing you to not trust her. How long have you been dating her?

Jay: We haven’t been dating that long, probably a couple months.

Chris Williams: So here is what I recommend. I recommend that you use this as a trial relationship. Practice relationship. Jay, what I would love for you to be able to do is get clear with yourself of what your issue is. "I’m worried about this or I fear this in our relationship," and see if she can engage in a deeper conversation and an authentic conversation around your fears. See what comes out. Is she able to acknowledge or move into them and talk through them, or does she deflect, does she kind of deny them or move off or get upset?

Dr. Jill Hubbard: You have to in some ways be willing to lose this relationship because either way, you may lose it. That’s why we’re saying it’s a practice relationship because this is a good stress test. It’s like we’re getting to know each other and dating’s new for me, I realize I’m having some feelings that are coming up and some fears and thought it would be good to talk about them. What do you think, girlfriend? Most of us really like to be able to go deeper sooner and it’s usually we’re waiting around for the guy to finally click in and be willing to go there.

Becky Brown: Jay, you need to get curious. You need to share your feelings, but just get curious. This conversation is about finding things out, not resolving the thing. A lot of times that happens. Don’t fix this; just go. You’re looking for clues, you’re looking for signs. This is the direction I need to go in to be vulnerable. And I love taking the risk because you have nothing to lose at this point. If you lose this relationship because you’re curious, you’ve actually gained a future without this struggle over and over again. If she leaves, it isn’t because of you. You’re trying to relate and engage and believe me, there’s a woman out there that will love this.

It’s true, Jay. Well, I’m so glad that you called today and we’ll be praying for your bravery and your curiosity. That’s what we do here every day at New Life. We are praying for you all, the listeners, those who support us. If you haven’t supported us yet, I want to invite you into being part of what God is doing through New Life. It helps so many people. We’ve heard from so many people today across the country. People need to know that they are loved and that there is hope for whatever challenge that they are experiencing. We believe that God’s truth is the central point for all of that. We’ve been doing it for close to 40 years and we plan to keep doing it. Thank you, Chris. Thank you, Jill. Thank you, listeners. Join us next time. You can forward this to your best friend.

New Life: Thanks so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to newlife.com to find out more information. And thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholness and healing, and we’re so glad that you’re here.