New Life LIVE

Guest (Male): Welcome to the New Life LIVE podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: Welcome to another episode of New Life LIVE, another one you've never heard before. Reruns, schmeruns, we bring you at least 250 new shows every year. Download our app so you never miss one. My name is Brian Perez and I'm joined today by a couple of licensed marriage and family therapists. We've got Mark Cameron in the studio and JJ West joining us from back east. Guys, good to be on with you again today and JJ, what's on your mind to start us off?

JJ West: Well, what's on my mind is that we are getting ready for another Every Man's Battle online this weekend, this Saturday. I am excited about what's going to happen there. One of the things that we talk about at the workshop, whether it's the in-person workshop or it's the online workshop, is we talk about the fact that we need to replace this thing that we've been feeding with our addiction. We need to replace it with good things. We need to replace it with something else.

With apologies to Nancy Reagan, just saying no is not enough. We can't just eliminate the bad behavior. There has to be something that we add to it. There's a great quote by Thomas Chalmers that says, "The only way to dispossess the heart of an old affection is through the expulsive power of a new one."

The expulsive power of a new one. That's the only way. We can't just eliminate the old behavior. We need to add in new things. We need to add in new affection and specifically what we talk about is that we need to add in a new affection for God. We need to amplify our love, our joy, our affection for God and the ways we do that is by learning more about God.

Studying who he is, what he's like with us, what his relationship is like with us, how he approaches us, how he leaves the 99 to go after the one because of his great love for us. We have to continue to meditate on that, continue to learn more about God in order for our affection for him to grow so that it allows our heart to dispossess from this old affection of our addiction.

We do that over and over through studying his word. We do that over and over through getting together with others to worship, to talk about God, to pray together. We do all of those things in order to dispossess our heart from the old affection from that expulsive power of an affection for God, that we're growing that affection for God.

If that's something that you're longing for, if you're in the audience and you're saying, "I feel trapped by this thing, this habit, this identity, this thing that's been holding on to me most if not all of my life," I would invite you to begin the process of studying, growing in your understanding, your knowledge, your affection for God in order for then that power to push away the affection for this old habit or this old behavior or this old identity that has kept you trapped for so long.

Mark Cameron: I love that, JJ. I often use this quote, which is similar, from Thomas Chalmers: "The only way to break the hold of a beautiful object on the soul is to show it an object even more beautiful." That's so true. It's when we realize just what Jesus has done for us and just the amazing grace that we have.

That becomes the object that's even more beautiful to us, then that gives us the motivation to move away from these other things that are just temporary, but they have a hold on us. I love it.

Brian Perez: The one-day online Zoom Every Man's Battle is this Saturday. It is not too late for you to sign up. You can go to our website, newlife.com, or you can call one of our ministry service representatives at 1-800-NEW-LIFE and they'll get you signed up.

Women, we encourage you to tell your husband to sign up. He doesn't have to leave the house. He can do it there at the home. The 12-hour thing, find out more at newlife.com. Nina, you're next on New Life LIVE.

Guest (Male): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

Brian Perez: Let's talk to Nina, who's in Cincinnati, Ohio. She was referred to New Life LIVE by a friend. First of all, Nina, thank you for calling in and thank your friend on our behalf for having you call in. How can we help you?

Nina: Thank you so much for having me on your show. I'm grateful for this opportunity. It was also nice to listen in a little bit about the recent issue because I feel like sometimes things are connected in different ways. I'm going to just share what I'm going through. To be honest, I'm going through quite a bit and I'm going to just pull out a snapshot of it, if that's all right, in hopefully get some wisdom.

I'm struggling with a bunch of injustices where I have approached the agencies that are designed to support citizens, consumers, the CFPB, the FTC, and the credit reporting bureaus where there have been inaccuracies and slander on my reports making it hard for me to get housing. Next month, I have to leave my current shelter and I'll be out of money.

I have been applying for public housing and I'm sure you've heard of this before, but there is a crisis with housing in general right now and it's even worse for those of us that may not have all of the assets needed to be in nicer accommodations. There's waiting lists. In terms of just paying outright, some of the challenge comes from the fact that Equifax and TransUnion have blatant lies on my credit report.

Whenever I write them and I'm supposed to have that right to have that fixed, I get letters back saying they can't verify my identity. I go ahead and I send new documents, a second round saying it's me. They ask what the issue is and say they didn't get it. I take it to the Better Business Bureau and they say it's not their job to do this.

I've spoken with two different law firms that specialize in consumer advocacy or consumer product law. It's very specialized and there's actually only a few in the whole country, but then they're limited in terms of what states they can practice in. They told me that they can't do anything for me. I have rejection letters from banks trying to get a loan and rejection letters from credit card companies. I don't seem to have the sort of credit that I need.

I'm working to build the credit and in the meantime, I've chewed down my savings. I've been trying to work really hard. I have had people say, "Did you go to the people in your town for shelter? Did you go to the churches?" I've been doing all of that. People have been nice and I want to give accolades to the fact that there isn't one person that shut the door in my face or said no.

But they all said pretty much the same thing, which is that this is a long process. They say you can't be coming to us when you've only got four or five months of rent left because it's too late by that point. But your life goes through trauma and you don't plan for that. I have an incredible relationship with Father God. I know Jesus and Mary and I'm a fan of the saints.

I won't go there with angels and saints, but the point being that I'm so overwhelmed because I work nonstop. Let me define work for you. Work for me is prayer. Work for me is prayer at night and in the morning and getting up. Then I'm coming to you sharing to see what you might be able to say. I am open to anything you have to say.

I'm looking for how to get my credit restored, a contact person, or someone who is going to help me because all of the agencies I've gone to, I'm getting nowhere. They say it's not their job, they get thousands of cases, or tell me to put it in the hopper and look at it again in six months.

Brian Perez: I think we're losing you there, but Mark, go ahead. What were you going to say?

Mark Cameron: I'm so sorry for this situation that you're going through. It sounds incredibly challenging and incredibly frustrating. I think we've all had that run-around before at different places or different agencies where we've got this problem to be solved that seems like it could be easy and then someone says they're going to do it and then they don't and then you have to wait on hold for another hour.

I've definitely had that happen. I'm not sure how we can help you with your credit here though, Nina. But what I would like to do is to see what level of support do you have with these injustices and these struggles? We can help you from a mental health perspective. Is there something that you can share with us that you're struggling with from that point of view?

Nina: I want to see if I understand the question. First of all, I do want to say that even that little bit of compassion helps a lot. When I'm doing the battles, the response is just asking if I've tried this or that. I'm trying and it's not working. What can you give me? How about just "I'm sorry you're going through it" because it's been months and it's tiring.

When you ask the question, maybe what I want to share is that this is pulling me away from God. When you were talking about finding something, the struggles are more than this and greater than this. It's a "my life being on the line" intensity kind of thing. I just say, "God, you tell me that you can do all things."

I've seen and witnessed you do some miracles, not just for me, but for others. I know that that's there. But then why is it you tell me that I have to leave this particular situation because they're going to kill me and there's evidence of it and the police are like, "Look, you can just get a gun and shoot them, but we're not going to get involved in this stuff."

Brian Perez: Nina, how'd you wind up in the shelter? Is that why you're in the shelter, Nina, for a dangerous situation that you're in?

Nina: Yes. My family hates me and I can't be raised to a new level if I'm near them. It's like, how come there's all these stipulations about what you can do? If God can do all things and if he loves me, then why is he making it to the brink that I literally feel sick?

I am constantly trying to get forward and it's like, "Now you got to pack up your stuff and move. This isn't— you're not going to get blessed here. I can't bless you here. This isn't the right place. It's not the right time." If you're the God of all things, what is it going to take?

The other day I was bawling my eyes out. It was seven o'clock, I had done the whole rigmarole. I wrote to congresspeople. I asked and pleaded for their help saying, "Here's some of the cases, here's the things I'm working on and I can't go forward." I said, "God, what do I do?"

Mark Cameron: Nina, who's your community? Do you have a church or a group of people?

Nina: I've gone to many churches and I'm not really welcomed. I think that's one of the hardest things in the world. For a long time, I went to Catholic church Mass in the morning, sometimes in the evening depending on my work schedule, and always on the weekend. COVID hit and there was just a change. The churches in my geographic area weren't opening all the time.

JJ West: Nina, when you say you're not really welcome at church, what do you mean? What are you experiencing that tells you you're not welcome?

Nina: The priest was there at the doorway and instead of, "Hi, how are you?" or "What's your name?" or "Let me welcome you," he said, "What are you doing here? What can I do for you?"

Brian Perez: Okay, Nina, we're trying to get some answers from you. We're asking questions and it seems like you're going in a different direction. Listen carefully to what we're asking you here, okay?

Nina: I'm very emotional because I have been trying, so let me take a breath.

Brian Perez: JJ, you wanted to ask her about—

JJ West: Nina, I was just saying, you said that you're not welcome at the churches that you're a part of there. What is it that you're experiencing that tells you you're not welcome?

Nina: Typically when I walk in the doorway, there is that pushback. You know, the "What do you want? What are you doing here?" To me, that doesn't feel welcomed.

Brian Perez: How is it that you're walking into these churches?

Nina: Typically at Mass hours, so yesterday at 10:30 AM.

JJ West: Gotcha. So instead of, "Hi, welcome, glad you're here," you're getting, "What are you doing here? What do you need?" There's not a welcome is what you're saying.

Mark Cameron: I've heard you mention here, Nina, it sounds like you're Catholic. You talked about praying to the saints and angels and going to Mass. I wonder if you'd get a different experience if you tried out a different church.

Nina: I'm so glad you asked because I've been to Baptist church, Methodist church, evangelical churches. The responses are slightly different. Am I being too sensitive in wanting to come in and if I'm greeted to be welcomed as opposed to "What do I want? What am I doing here? I'm not sure that these are your people." That was the Baptist church where they said, "I'm not sure if these are your people" at this church.

Mark Cameron: Are you asking that question? "I wonder if I'm being too sensitive?" Was that a question that I heard you saying?

Nina: No, I've been asked or stated those things. I come with a smile. I come with gratitude that I'm stepping into an organization because not everywhere is mine, so it belongs to them, their community, their group, and I find it very challenging.

Mark Cameron: Here's where I would start, Nina. I would start with a recovery group because when you go into a recovery group, it's a different type of community. Everybody's there because they're struggling with something. They're all looking for help, they're all looking for support.

That's the wonderful thing that happens in recovery: even though we're all struggling and we're all broken, we're there for one another. We're walking along the journey with one another. We're hearing how each person's struggling. Just like you said, it matters when somebody just holds space for you, when somebody just empathizes with you, when somebody just says, "I'm so sorry that you're going through that. I wish I had that number for you to call to solve this credit problem, but I don't. But you know what? You're loved and cared for and you have a space here and I want to hear about your stress and give you a hug if you need it."

I think that may be the type of community that you want to first start to get into. I know what you're saying that it seems like everything is against you. I think that's part of the human experience. Each one of us at times has our story, has the thing that we go through that it feels like, "Where are you, God? I'm calling for you and I don't hear your voice" or "I'm feeling a lot of rejection right now."

We all go through that. What I would say to you is to learn to persevere and I would say look for a recovery group. We have Life Recovery Groups. Let us hook you up with one of those and see what your experience is like in there. Here's the other thing too that I would guide you on: find a couple of people— and maybe it's in this group, you'll have to build that trust first— and ask people for feedback for you because I think that we all have to do that too when we grow.

We all have to say, "What's it like to be on the other side of me? What do you experience? I'm open to learning how do I grow" because we all have blind spots too. Ask if there's anything that you're doing that's limiting relationship here. I'm not saying this to disregard your experience because again, I think we've all had that type of experience where we have been rejected by others. I'm just wanting to help you persevere and help you lean into areas of growth that you may be missing.

Brian Perez: And be prepared to change too, because if somebody brings something up that might be tough to hear, you might think, "Wait, I'm not like that." Well, no, maybe you are. What might you add to that, JJ?

JJ West: I agree with that, Mark. It is important. We want to be compassionate because we don't want to be in a situation where you're blaming the victim. "Well, if you had just done this or not done that, you wouldn't have been treated that way." We don't want that.

But we do want to be open to that feedback and to recognize that if I'm the common denominator in several different interactions where I feel like I've been mistreated or not welcomed, is there something that I'm doing that may be inviting that response?

I'm not saying that I'm responsible if someone mistreats me, but is there something that I am doing that is inviting that response? Can I work on that? I need some people in my life that I trust enough to give me honest feedback and then that I can then grow from that. I can change in regard to how I'm maybe presenting myself or presenting the situation to others.

Brian Perez: Nina, thanks for calling in today to New Life LIVE. Stay on the phone and we'll put you in touch with a Life Recovery Group in your area there in Cincinnati. We just thank you for calling in today. If everybody watching and listening to New Life LIVE right now can keep Nina in your prayers, that she will find the help that she needs for her financial situation and for everything else that's going in her life.

We're going to take a quick break here on New Life LIVE. I'm Brian Perez here with JJ West and Mark Cameron and we'll be back with more of your questions here on New Life LIVE.

Guest (Male): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

Brian Perez: Mark Cameron and JJ West are here today on New Life LIVE. This Saturday JJ's going to be hosting the Every Man's Battle workshop. It's being offered in a rare one-day online Zoom format. Now, how does the online version work, JJ?

We've talked in the past about how sometimes guys may not want to go to Every Man's Battle because they're ashamed and they're going to be with other guys and they don't want to admit it. Now there's the online thing. Does it have the same results in the sense that people are not chatting with each other there? They're not forming that community in person. So how does the online work?

JJ West: No, there is still that community. The really big difference between the in-person and the online is that you don't have to travel. You can be at home. You don't have to worry about staying in a hotel room with somebody that you've never met before.

But you will still have the same format of large group presentation where I'm speaking, I'm doing a teaching session, and then there's a small group breakout session where you're processing and applying what we just talked about in the main session.

All the groups have smaller Zoom groups. You're getting to know the other guys in your group and sharing some of your story. Even though it's different than a face-to-face group, I've actually been surprised at how well these small groups over Zoom are able to build connection and are able to go very deep with one another.

It's really amazing how God uses even this truncated version of the Every Man's Battle Intensive, the weekend version crammed into one day. How well that works and how deeply and connected these men get. Then the follow-up groups are the same for those who've attended online versus those who've been in person. We still have the same Sustained Victory groups where there's weekly Zoom calls to follow up on the material and to have continued accountability and encouragement to stay on the path of integrity.

Brian Perez: Now ladies, if you are listening or watching right now and you've tried to get your husband to go to the Every Man's Battle Intensive in the past and maybe one of his excuses is, "I can't take a whole weekend off of work and travel. We don't have the money. I don't want to inconvenience you by leaving you home alone for a whole weekend."

Just tell him, "Don't be silly, dear. It's online for one day, not an inconvenience at all. Now go sign up." You can get all the details at newlife.com or you can call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. We're here to help you guys, because this is something that a lot of guys struggle with.

Sexual integrity issues maybe it's something from your past that has continued to haunt you all these years and decades later. Maybe you're a young man and recently married and you're thinking, "Wait a minute, I thought getting married was going to solve all these problems." And no, you still watch porn. You're still tempted to walk into a strip club or something. You thought getting married would solve all this. What would you guys say to that person?

JJ West: Right, because it's all the sex you want all the time when you get married, right? Not so much. All the same things that drive us to act out when we're single are still present when we get married. The shame, the hiding, stresses of life, the feelings of incompetence, the feelings of insignificance, the feelings of impotence, all those same drivers are present whether we're single or married. We have to address it no matter what. Marriage doesn't fix us, much to the disappointment of many participants, but that is true.

Mark Cameron: It can do the opposite. Not necessarily break us, but it's the great exposer, marriage. It exposes the emotional wounds and reactivity that we have when we get into relationship with a new attachment figure. When we prime our minds with porn for what to expect from our wife and then it doesn't go that way because it's not realistic, we set ourselves up for disappointment.

Having this online option is really a way to remove all of the barriers that people have. Of course, it's much better to be in person with someone, but if that's not possible, here's another option because willpower alone— many people, many men I should say, struggle with this and they just think, "I just need to recommit and not do it again. I know it's wrong." But how many times have you done that?

Willpower alone is not going to cut it because it's such a powerful force and it's a universal experience that all men struggle with. I'm not saying that all men are stuck in lust, but we all face it and we have to learn, "Do I overcome this? Do I conquer this or does it conquer me?" That only happens with structured help.

JJ West: One of the great things about the online course is we see a lot of younger men, kind of in that maybe 18 to 20-year-old range where maybe they're still living at home or still in high school but they've turned 18. Their parents aren't comfortable with them going to another city on the other side of the country and sharing a hotel room with a stranger in order to be part of the workshop. This is a way for them to participate. They still get the same experience, but it creates some safety for them to attend.

Brian Perez: This is happening this Saturday. It's a 12-hour day and includes six teaching sessions and five small group process sessions facilitated by a credentialed New Life Network counselor. You'll be able to break into small groups for a personal time of sharing there on Zoom.

You can get all the details at newlife.com or call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Register today. Again, it's happening the day after tomorrow, this Saturday, February 28th. Of course, we also invite you to our three-day weekend Intensive. That is happening the weekend of April 24th in Washington DC. Details on that at newlife.com. We'll be back here on New Life LIVE. Thanks for watching and thanks for listening today. God bless you guys, we'll be back.

Becky Brown: Hello, it's Becky Brown. I am so excited to launch our 99 for the One partner initiative. Every day we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression, all kinds of ways. It reminds us of the story in Luke 15 where the shepherd leaves the 99 to go rescue the one.

We've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99 for the One is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE, 1-800-639-5433, or newlife.com/99for1.

Guest (Male): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

Brian Perez: Mark Cameron and JJ West are here today on New Life LIVE. Tonight is our online webinar called From Pain to Peace: Healing After Betrayal. That starts at 7:00 Central. This is for anyone, man or woman, who has experienced any type of betrayal from someone they trusted. It could be marital, but it could be a business partner, could be your parents or your children. There's still time to register. 1-800-NEW-LIFE or text the word WEBINAR to 28950.

When you text WEBINAR to 28950, you'll get a link with more information and a link to register and also a free tip sheet on betrayal. If you can't join us tonight live, register anyway because the link we send you will be good for the next seven days or so. It's only $24.99 for this 90-minute webinar that includes 30 minutes of Q&A. Register right now and join us tonight at 7:00 Central. Text WEBINAR to 28950 to get started.

If you can't call in to the radio show when we're here in the studio, there are a couple of other ways that you can send us your questions. We have a dedicated voicemail line and a dedicated email address. To get that contact info, you can go to newlife.com/radio and you'll see that. Here is one of the questions that was sent in to us online in an email. It is from Jackie.

Jackie asks, "If someone is involved in viewing child porn online and downloading images, how would that individual receive counseling if telling a therapist would then be reported to the authorities and likely result in an arrest?" JJ, what do you say to Jackie?

JJ West: She's not wrong. That would indeed happen if this person goes to a licensed therapist. They are required by law— they're called mandatory reporters. Just like teachers and medical professionals, if part of what comes out in that encounter is that there is harm or danger to themselves or someone else, or if a minor, an elderly person, or a disabled person has been or is being abused, including sexual abuse— child pornography would be a form of sexual abuse— then yes, that has to be reported to the authorities.

That doesn't mean automatically though that you shouldn't seek help because sometimes the consequences that you walk through are part of your healing path to recovery and to getting free from this thing that keeps showing up in your life again and again. We sometimes use the language of addiction. Someone may be addicted to child pornography, but having to walk through the consequences of dealing with the legal issues that come with that may in fact be the part of the process that gets me to move from addiction into recovery.

Mark Cameron: That's really along the lines of what I was going to say. There's a lot of tension in this question because I get it. Especially if this is Jackie's son or if this is Jackie's husband— she obviously wants this person to get help, but not have to face the legal consequences. But if this person cannot stop doing that, they may need to be held accountable for exacerbating these crimes because child pornography is a crime.

If they can't stop, sometimes the accountability piece and the consequences is really what ends up saving us in the end. Like I said, there's a lot of tension in this question, Jackie. But I would encourage you if this person is not getting the help or if they're not able to stop, then sometimes an intervention is necessary in this type of case.

JJ West: It really comes down to which prison is better. If in fact it gets reported and they have to face some sort of legal consequence— maybe they actually have to go to jail— is that worse than the prison of addiction to child pornography? It not only is affecting that person's life— again, it might be Jackie's son or it might be Jackie's husband— it's not just affecting their life, it's also affecting the lives of those around them. It's affecting Jackie in some way.

It's certainly affecting the lives of the children who are the victims of the child pornography to begin with. It really comes down to which prison is actually worse. I would argue that the prison of addiction and the ripple effect in terms of how it's impacting other people's lives is actually far greater than the potential prison of having to go to jail as a consequence of my illegal behavior, my criminal behavior.

Brian Perez: I notice here on New Life LIVE sometimes when we talk about pornography— child porn comes up every now and then— that there's a term that's used. It's "using" porn. It's not just watching porn. There's a difference. It's like when you say that somebody is taking drugs or you say that they're using drugs. Pornography is just like that. It's an addiction that some people see as harmless. But why do you say it's not?

JJ West: We have to understand that neurochemically, it's operating very similarly in the brain to other drugs of choice like maybe marijuana, cocaine, or alcohol. Bottom line, great resource is Wired for Intimacy by William Struthers. The subtitle is How Pornography Hijacks the Male Brain. You can actually take out pornography and put in whatever your drug of choice or whatever your acting-out behavior is. Whether you're into strip clubs, massage parlors, affairs, or whatever, it all operates neurochemically the same in our brain.

There's this flood of chemicals that happens when we are engaged sexually in some way, whether we're actually engaged with another person or we're engaged through the viewing of pornography or through strip clubs, massage parlors, or whatever. Whenever I'm engaged sexually, there's a whole host of chemicals that is flooding my brain and it has the same impact on me as something like cocaine or alcohol where I'm experiencing— especially dopamine. There's a whole bunch of chemicals that are released, but dopamine's a main one.

Dopamine does a lot of things in our brain, but the two that drive these behaviors are it drives novelty and it drives satiation. Satiation's a big one. That sense of go get satisfied. No matter what, go get satisfied. It's when you get that taste for your favorite snack food and you have to have it, you have to go get it. That's dopamine flooding your brain. It operates the same with pornography. When I start to view pornography just a little bit or when I start to use it— to use the terminology you talked about, Brian.

When I start to use pornography, I'm already getting that dopamine hit in my brain and the more I look at it, I'm getting greater and greater amounts of dopamine to the point where my brain starts to now exchange intimacy for intensity. I'm looking for that flood of dopamine rather than the eye-dropper amount of dopamine that my brain was originally set for in terms of sexual activity with my spouse. My brain— I'm actually recalibrating my brain to only respond to this flood of dopamine. It's very similar that it takes more and more of the same thing in order to try and reach that same high. I build up a tolerance, very much like I build up a tolerance to alcohol, marijuana, or cocaine. I can do the same thing with sexual behavior.

Mark Cameron: All addictions create cravings and withdrawals for us and as JJ's saying, dopamine is value-neutral. Meaning that we can get a dopamine hit from something that is healthy for us, like exercise, and we can get a dopamine hit from something that is harmful for us, like cocaine. It doesn't differentiate between the two. But we do get desensitized and we do need these greater levels to get the same level of stimulation. It's not just harmful for ourselves, it's harmful for other people.

When we're looking at pornography, other people are being exploited, especially in Jackie's question with child pornography. This isn't somebody who can consent to doing what they're doing. It's exploitation of them. It's not a harmless activity, pornography. All kinds of people are being harmed by it. Even if you are not directly harming that person, you're indirectly harming that person. As Christians and what we believe, this is not somebody's self-worth. We know that God has designed us to be loved for who we are, not what our bodies look like.

It shapes our brains in all kinds of ways neurobiologically and continues us in a sin mindset.

Brian Perez: So what was the name of the book again? Wired for Intimacy?

Mark Cameron: It's called Wired for Intimacy by William Struthers. It's a book that we recommend at the workshop every single month that we do the workshop.

Brian Perez: It's also available for purchase in the newlife.com store. So check it out. Again, it's called Wired for Intimacy. We'll see you tonight at the betrayal webinar that is coming up at 7:00 PM Central. It is not too late for you to sign up. You can text the word WEBINAR to 28950 to get a link to sign up and we'll also get you a tip sheet on betrayal. Then the Every Man's Battle one-day Intensive is happening this Saturday. Details on that at newlife.com or by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE. We'll be back here on New Life LIVE. Stand by.

Guest (Male): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

Brian Perez: Would you tell someone about New Life? Everyone knows someone who's struggling with something and New Life is here with faith-based critical help for the difficult things of life. If you haven't downloaded our mobile app, do it today so that you'll never miss an episode of New Life LIVE. You can join us on the app each weekday at 10:00 AM Pacific Time, 1:00 PM Eastern, and you can also catch up on any episodes that you might have missed.

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To become a 99 for One partner with a monthly recurring gift of any amount, visit newlife.com/99for1. Thank you for whatever you can do. Your generosity changes lives. I'm Brian Perez here with licensed marriage and family therapists Mark Cameron and JJ West. We all know the Bible verse in Philippians 2:12: "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling." Now we also know that that verse is not saying you are working for your salvation. We know that already, right?

I want to ask you guys to paraphrase Philippians 2:12 when it comes to marriage. Instead of "work out your salvation with fear and trembling," how would you fill in the blanks? Work out your marriage with blank and blank. What do you guys say?

JJ West: Wow. That's a great question, Brian. I'll go back to something that I share all the time whenever I'm doing premarital counseling or especially if I have the opportunity to officiate a wedding. I'll talk about how marriage is a cauldron. The way cauldrons work is you have all these impure metals, these precious metals, but they're impure and you apply heat and all the impurities rise to the surface so they can be skimmed away.

That's what marriage is. Marriage is this cauldron where all this heat is applied. You're living in close proximity to this other person who knows you better than anybody else on the planet and you know them. They can press your buttons in ways nobody else can. It allows you to see your impatience, your stubbornness, and your selfishness in ways that you would not otherwise. So you work out your marriage with humility and perseverance.

Humility is that I'm willing to look at my own brokenness. I'm willing to look at my own faults. I'm willing to admit them and work on changing them. Perseverance is that I have the long-haul view. I'm not demanding instant change from my partner or from my spouse, but instead I have the perseverance to watch as God is working in their lives to change them and to make them into what he designed them to be. I can't demand instant change from them. I need to have perseverance. So I would say humility and perseverance.

Mark Cameron: Now I gotta change my answer because I also was going to say humility as part of it. I'll change it to add something different. I was going to say humility and intention. But I'm going to change it then to personal responsibility and intention. JJ's so right. We do need to look at ourselves. We need to take responsibility for what do I bring?

Marriage is the great exposer. It exposes all of this stuff inside of us. A marriage is two histories coming together. Two histories of experiences combining— and I wouldn't even say combining, I would say colliding or crashing together. All of my expectations and all of my past hurts colliding with my spouse's expectations and their past hurts. You guys know and many other listeners probably know that I take an attachment-based approach.

I look at a marriage as that collision, which creates a predictable core pattern depending upon your attachment style. Then you need to have intention to be able to go and fix that. Good marriages don't happen by accident. They happen on purpose. Nobody ever falls into a good marriage. You don't find a good relationship, you cultivate a good relationship.

That takes the intention and so you've got to be able to understand these things about ourselves. Self-reflection: how do I handle stress? What are my reactivities? How is my past influencing my present and how's that influencing my expectations on my spouse? Then how do I do the repair work? It's not enough just to know diet and exercise leads to physical health. I've actually got to go to the gym. I've actually got to eat right. I've got to choose my portion sizes. I've got to have impulse control and regulation. We mess up at times. We need to go back and we need to repair. We need to say sorry and that's where the humility part comes into it also.

We also need to learn how do we have conversations where each of us get to share and express our opinions without being defensive and shutting the other person down. That's where the part about how we handle stress comes into it also. Can I learn to regulate and self-manage so that I don't become reactive and basically destroy with my words or with my actions?

Brian Perez: Is it ever too late to understand your attachment style and to change your attachment style? Somebody listening might be in their 50s, 60s, or 70s. They're like, "You know what? It's too late. I'm set in my ways. This is who I am. This is who I'm always going to be. My spouse better just put up with it because I'm not going to change." What do you say to that person?

Mark Cameron: That would be a sad state of affairs. That would be like saying that then we can't go through the sanctification process. The sanctification process is the process that we go through where we become more holy, more like God, and more like Jesus. We can all grow.

If we become resigned to "well that's just who I am, deal with it," okay, but then you have to— if other people aren't willing to grow or if other people aren't the way that you'd like them to be— then you have to accept that maybe they're just going to— maybe you just have to deal with it and that's just the way that they are. Typically our expectations for others can often be different than the expectations that we have for ourselves.

The fantastic news about the gospel and about attachment science— and again, attachment is all about how God created us— is that we can change. We can rewire and we can form new neural pathways to become more secure in ourselves and more secure in our relationships with others. But it takes all of these things that we've talked about: personal responsibility, humility, intention, vulnerability, and a great amount of effort to walk toward healing.

JJ West: It takes out the last part of the verse, Philippians 2:12, that you referenced, Brian. It starts off with "work out your salvation with fear and trembling," but it concludes with "for it is God who works in and through you to work out his good pleasure." We don't take the approach of "Oh, I'm just too old, I can't change, I'm too far gone."

No, God is at work, working my salvation out in me. God is able to do far more than I can ask or even imagine. So yes, there can be change, even for old people. I'm going to turn 55 in a couple months. I'm still learning and I'm still growing. I'm loving Mark's book because it's challenging me to let go of some of these unhealthy patterns and move into earning that secure connection that Mark talks about. We have to remember that God is at work in us.

Brian Perez: Mark Cameron's book is called Understanding Your Attachment Style. It is available for purchase in the newlife.com store. There's also an audiobook version where Mark reads it himself. Read the title, Mark.

Mark Cameron: Understanding Your Attachment Style: The Path to Overcoming Unhelpful Patterns and Building Healthy, Secure Relationships.

Brian Perez: You can hear that voice reading the book to you. Check that out. We'll talk to you tomorrow, guys, here on New Life LIVE.

Guest (Male): Thank you so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to newlife.com to find out more information. Thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing and we're so glad you're here.