New Life LIVE

Brian Perez: Welcome to the New Life LIVE podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's Word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

We are in for a treat on today's edition of New Life LIVE. I'm your host, Brian Perez, joined by licensed professional clinical counselor and president of New Life Ministries, not to mention a great fill-in host for when yours truly has a last-minute thing to take care of, Becky Brown.

A man you hear us talking about all the time on New Life LIVE, I know our longtime listeners know exactly who Dr. John Townsend is, but if you're new to the show, John is a renowned leadership consultant, author, and psychologist. He's written over 30 books, selling over 10 million copies, including the New York Times bestseller Boundaries series. John founded and operates the Townsend Institute for Leadership and Counseling and the Townsend Leadership Program. John, so nice to meet you. Why don't you tell our listeners about the Townsend Institute?

Dr. John Townsend: First off, thanks for being here, Brian. I feel like I'm back to the OG days where Henry Cloud and I spent a lot of time with Steve.

Becky Brown: You are the OG, John. You are.

Dr. John Townsend: O doesn't mean old, I think it means original, so I hope that's right. But yeah, we're really excited about this. The Institute is at Concordia University in Irvine, California, and we are an accredited hybrid online, mainly online, grad school where you can get one of three programs.

You can get a Master's in Counseling to get a license, or you can get a Master's in Organizational Leadership or in Executive Coaching. We just found out a few months ago that Forbes Magazine made our Doctorate in Counseling the number one in the country, not in the Christian world, but just number one for the doctorate.

Our students are all over the world, and they're getting great jobs and compassion. I'm there a lot teaching and working with a great faculty team. Actually, we're right now signing up people for the next semester. If people want to come in and apply, we always say, what's your passion? Is your passion leadership, is it coaching, or is it counseling? If you do apply with us, just get hold of the university and let them know you heard about us on New Life LIVE when we were here, and we'll waive your application fee because we are partners with New Life and it would be free to just apply.

Becky Brown: That's wonderful, John. I can attest because of my own journey through licensure, John, you have given the world the best gift through this program. I've known so many people who have gone through the program. We actually just was telling you a couple of your graduates are serving on our board. If this is a calling that God's called you to, John's program is—it's not just your program, I know—but you started the charge and I'm so glad that you did.

Dr. John Townsend: Thank you. We really want to help make the world a better place, and a lot of this started with New Life and all the years here and seeing how much people can be helped with the right kind of help.

Brian Perez: Is this for people who are currently leaders or who want to be leaders, or counselors?

Dr. John Townsend: You can become a licensed therapist, or you can become a leader in a corporate setting or a non-profit setting like a pastor or your own side hustle gig, or you can be an executive coach. So we're always in three different domains with the model that Henry Cloud and I developed many, many years ago and all the other great faculty we have teaching this stuff too.

Brian Perez: How can people find out more? What's the website?

Dr. John Townsend: Just go to TownsendInstitute.com. Something. We will look that up. TownsendInstitute.something is the web address. Mention New Life LIVE and you'll get the application fee waived.

Brian Perez: Wow, that is a great deal. We're going to be in the studio for two hours today. If you feel overwhelmed or defeated by what you're facing, pick up the phone and call us. Your breakthrough is just a phone call away. Do you need help with setting boundaries? Maybe a boundary's been placed on you and you don't think it's fair. Maybe you're a business leader or church leader who needs advice on a new venture. Call us, 1-800-229-3000. Free advice for two hours today from Becky Brown and Dr. John Townsend. One call to New Life LIVE could change everything. Let's change everything right now. 1-800-229-3000. We'll be right back here on New Life LIVE.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

And let's go right to the phones. 1-800-229-3000 is the number to speak with Becky Brown and our guest Dr. John Townsend. We're going to begin with Nancy in Paducah, Kentucky, listening on WDXR. Welcome to New Life LIVE, Nancy.

Nancy: Hi. How are you guys doing today?

Brian Perez: Doing well, thank you.

Nancy: Good, thank you. I have a question. I'll try to make it short and sweet. I have three kids. On my second marriage, I had a very bad marriage first time around, verbally and emotionally abused by my ex. The three kids suffered. Connor, my youngest, is the one that suffered the most. Now he is 22 and going for his Master's in Counseling, and we've had a strained relationship since the divorce, and that's been about 15 years ago.

Now that he's in counseling, he thinks he knows it all. We go back and forth. My thing is, how can I respond to him in love, in a Christian manner, because I feel disrespected when he comes back at me saying things like, "You're the one that needs healing. I'm the child, you need to comfort me." I know it's all the things he's learning in his classes, right?

Dr. John Townsend: Well, no good class teaches a 22-year-old that they need to be reparented by their mother. That didn't come from the school. But anyway, continue.

Nancy: I just don't understand that. And then he tells me, "You need to go back to your childhood." I said, "I had a very happy childhood." I wanted to say I had a perfect childhood and then I met your father, but I would never say that to him.

I'm in a really good marriage now, very loving and godly husband, and it makes my husband upset when my son talks to me the way that he does. I've never felt respected from my three kids because of the way my ex talked about me in front of the kids. I want that relationship restored. My son wants the relationship restored, but I feel like he judges me, thinking that he is over me spiritually, mentally, every way. So that's my dilemma in a nutshell.

Becky Brown: Nancy, I'm wondering first of all if you've done any personal work and healing, because the way that you're approaching this, you have a good desire to have connection, but there's this old wound from your ex-husband who's the father of them, and then this dialogue that's always going on inside of your head of, you know, "if you only knew."

Your 22-year-old son is kind of calling you out, but he doesn't know the whole story. But I wonder, Nancy, have you done any personal work healing?

Nancy: Oh, yeah. Hugely. I'm completely worked through my ex. That was a long time coming and a long time healing. I'm completely over that. But yes, I still see a counselor as of even yesterday because I had this same question to him. My girls are different. They call me every day. They don't think I'm perfect, they know I've made mistakes, but they know I've done the best that I could as their mom.

Becky Brown: I get that. The reason why I asked you about doing your own work first is because when you're describing the interaction that you're having with your son, there's a lot of reactivity that's happening as opposed to just being able to hear him and not engage in trying to set the record straight about all the things. But to describe the way that you want to have the relationship, it's going to come from what you will accept and won't accept.

This sounds very interesting, like you said, John, for a 22-year-old to talk like that. There's a disconnect in what he's learning as well. But I want you to be able to move into a responsive stance as opposed to reactive. John, what do you have to say about it?

Dr. John Townsend: First off, Nancy, sorry about that. I mean, it hurts when an adult child does what they do, and I can hear it in your voice. I have a little system that I use in these situations that I want to share with you, if that's okay.

It comes from the idea of humility and vulnerability, and it won't be easy, but it works probably 80% of the time when we have an estranged or attacking or critical or canceling adult child. You take the initiative, don't wait for him to come and say you're an awful whatever. You take the initiative and you say, "I am glad you want to get closer to me and you've said that, and I do too. I want to take the first step, and here it is."

"I want some time with you where I'm going to bring an 8.5x11 legal pad and a pen. Sweetheart, I want you to tell me everything that you are estranged from me about, what you don't like." Apparently he's pretty good about that already, but I want him to get that, as Becky said, not in reactivity where it hurts you and wounds you, but where you're just sitting there kind of calmly saying, "I'm going to write down everything you've got against me."

"And what I'm going to do, and I'm not going to edit and say, 'No, that can't be true' or 'You're distorted there.' No, you just say, 'I'm listening. I've got some clarifying questions, but I'm going to get the list.'" And it might take an hour. You've got to be strong. You're going to have to have a lot of support behind you.

Then you say, "Now when I do this, if you're up for this, I'm going to go away for about a week or two and do my own thing and pray and bring this to my counselor. Everything that you've got in here that is true, that I need to change, I will change, and I will commit to change. Then I want to have another meeting where I can say, 'Okay, I've done my work, and see what you think.'"

One of two things will happen, Nancy. One will go, "I've got a mother I never thought I had. This is wonderful, and I need to repent and I need to change." Now that's a home run. Or he may say, "Well, that's not enough." And then that's when you say, "Well, I'm glad we know that. When can we see a couples counselor?" Not a married couple, but a mother and an adult son counselor, because it's just gone beyond my realm of competence. Then he has to have skin in the game too. This works a lot.

Nancy: I love that. I love that. I am willing to do whatever it takes to restore our relationship. Whatever. I love that idea. Thank you.

Dr. John Townsend: If you're willing to take a few hits and keep a tough skin, good things can happen.

Brian Perez: That's the tough part. Just to be able to listen to this conversation for an hour and not say anything like, "Wait, wait, no, that's not true." Instead say, "Okay, how do you spell that?"

Dr. John Townsend: That's perfect. But it requires a lot, but it's really effective because then people go, "Okay, you're not telling me and dismissing me and editing me. You're saying I'm in your well and I get it." Whether I agree or not, whether it's true or not, I'm going to write it down and process it.

Becky Brown: Yeah, and it also gives you clarity as the listener to hear what's the story in his head. You can't defend yourself against something that you have no idea what their thought process is. But you're also not going to—I love what you said, John, about you don't want to say, "No, that's not true." You just say, "Okay, I hear what you're saying about me and we'll get through it."

Dr. John Townsend: That's the way it works. I got a lot of this from Proverbs where it says a person's heart are deep waters, but a person of understanding draws them out. Your son, for right or wrong, needs to be drawn out. Don't let him abuse you. Abuse is not okay. He can be critical, but not abusive. When we draw somebody out, it builds a spiritual bridge in between us and them, and all of a sudden the defenses get less.

Brian Perez: All right, Nancy. So get yourself a legal pad, a couple of pens—two pens just in case one runs out of ink because that's the worst thing when you're writing. Legal pads are on sale at Staples this week. How do I know that? I don't know.

Okay, let's take another call. This is Robert in Pennsylvania, who's listening on his phone. Thank you so much, Robert, for calling in to 1-800-229-3000. You're on with Dr. John Townsend and Becky Brown. Go ahead.

Robert: Yes, good afternoon. This is Rob. My question is how do you deal with vulnerability, loneliness, and being inferior? These are some of the things that I'm battling. I also wanted to say that there was someone on yesterday, I believe it was a woman, and some of the things that she went through, I'm kind of at the same place as far as being abused, being rejected, betrayal, being bullied.

I didn't even go through school, but I'm trying to finish up my education now because I go to—I'm in a program now. But like I said, the loneliness, the being vulnerable, and the being inferior, like feeling inferior around other men. I see other men that are prospering, doing well even close to me, married, got a wife, got kids, and I'm like the underdog.

One of the things that I know that I did and I know I shouldn't do anymore is that I went and got on a dating site and social media, and there was actually someone that I fell prey to—it was nothing but a scammer. I realized that that's not the way to go. I have to trust God he's going to send me somebody or I'll just be single and, you know, otherwise.

But the vulnerability, because of what happened to me growing up and so forth—the inferiority, I'm sorry. The vulnerability is the other thing I mentioned. And I think the last thing I mentioned was the loneliness, yeah. And that goes with all these dating sites and stuff.

Brian Perez: Fear, insecurity, and vulnerability.

Becky Brown: So, Rob, you're looking to be in a relationship, but you're trying to overcome the insecure feelings, the being taken advantage of, and then history in your life. Is that right?

Robert: Yeah, because I grew up being bullied and I went through a lot of abuse, betrayal, a lot growing up, went through all that stuff. And I feel inferior around other men because, like I said before, I didn't finish things I didn't do in my life and I just feel so inferior now. I get so much rejection from women, even Christian women, so yeah.

Brian Perez: All right, Becky. What would you say to Robert?

Becky Brown: My first question is, I hear Rob that you're saying that you're doing some classes, right? Is that what I heard you say?

Robert: Trying to improve myself, yeah.

Becky Brown: And are you doing that in group or with one-on-one counseling?

Robert: It's just a one-on-one person that I meet with, yeah.

Becky Brown: Well, I would say, along with that, one of the things that we talk about all the time is to be in community, to have those connections. It would be really important for you before you even get into a romantic relationship is to have your team around you. John, you wrote the book on this, People Fuel, and I think that that would be a prescription for what Robert's going through.

Dr. John Townsend: Absolutely. Is it Rob or Robert? Robert, right?

Robert: Robert.

Dr. John Townsend: Yeah, I really think Becky is guiding you the right way. There is community and then there's crazy toxic people. It sounds like you're still—not only did you have some tough stuff back in the day when you were young, but it sounds like you are not around some really supportive people. Give us a one-sentence description of the people that you allow in your life. Do you have several people that want Robert to win?

Robert: There was only a couple in my life, believe it or not, and they mentored me years ago. This was a long time ago.

Dr. John Townsend: No, I'm asking about right now. Right now, as we speak, we're going to get a break. We're thinking about you, but I'm asking about right now. Just how many? Like three and they're great people, or I've got nobody great? Really quick.

Robert: Nobody great.

Dr. John Townsend: Becky picked up something. We'll help you on the way back.

Brian Perez: Robert, thanks for calling in today to New Life LIVE at 1-800-229-3000. Stay on the phone because we're going to continue to speak with you. We've got lots of other callers. We've got Missy, Mary, Laura, Linda, Sarah—so many calls. I'm so grateful that we're going to be in the studio today for two hours to take your calls, to try to help you in whatever situation that you find yourself right now in life. We've got more open lines so call in to speak with Dr. John Townsend, our special guest, and Becky Brown. 1-800-229-3000. We'll be right back.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

And back to Robert in Pittsburgh who called us at 1-800-229-3000. Dr. John Townsend, you asked him the question.

Dr. John Townsend: Yeah, and I asked about how many good people who are on your side and want you to win are around these days, and you said not a lot. So here's the prescription, Robert. We go to our Bible. Are you a Christian? Are you a man of faith, Robert?

Robert: Yes, I am.

Dr. John Townsend: In Ephesians, it says that we grow—because you said I want to grow, I don't want to be so vulnerable, I want to be not feeling insecure. We're talking about growth. That's change into a guy that you're not yet. Ephesians says in chapter 4, it says that by speaking the truth in love, we grow each other up.

Becky mentioned the book that I think might be a good one for you. It's called People Fuel that I wrote. But what I want you to do when you get off the phone, do you go to a church?

Robert: I haven't joined a church, but I attend. I haven't joined any church, you know.

Dr. John Townsend: Attend or whatever, as long as your butt's in the seat. I want you there because I want you to go to the pastor there and say, "Do you have a place to where men can be mentored? A place where good men who want to give back, who've gotten success in relationships, success in jobs, success in marriage, and I just need a mentor because I don't have good rules. I've had some bad stuff in my life."

Get with whoever the pastor says. If it's a good man who's safe, who understands, and who can give you the sort of advice you need, that's the first place I would start, Robert.

Robert: Can I elaborate on one other thing before I end? I do remember seeing a psychologist a while back and they said my IQ level was low, but I'm trying to improve myself now. I wonder if maybe that's maybe why I'm not having success in relationship as far as with the opposite sex because my IQ level being low and then things happened to me growing up and so forth.

Dr. John Townsend: Possibility. But you know what? People can overcome. I mean, if we've got a low genetic IQ, it's just the way it is, but people can feel secure with a low IQ. My son works with people with Down syndrome as one of his things he does, my son who has been working with them for many years, and they have great lives. So let's don't let that stop you.

Brian Perez: Robert, that book is called People Fuel by Dr. John Townsend. So check that out. Thanks for calling into New Life LIVE at 1-800-229-3000.

If betrayal trauma is part of your story and you haven't gotten help, you may be drowning in shame, feeling crazy, insecure, or not good enough, questioning everything you thought you knew about yourself and your relationship, or struggling with triggers that make normal life feel impossible. Life can be different. There is hope.

New Life's Restore Workshop has helped thousands of women find healing. Sandra said this after attending: "I came here broken, doubting my worth and myself. I'm leaving with tools, empowered, looking at myself the way God sees me. I am glad it all came out so I could find healing from things that happened to me even as a child. This is one of the best things I have ever done for myself."

Becky, we've got another Restore weekend intensive for our lady listeners coming up, don't we?

Becky Brown: We do, March 6th through 8th, and I can't encourage you enough. I just spoke with someone this morning who this is part of her story, and she is in that state of denial where you cannot believe, you asked all the right questions, you thought you had done all the work, and yet here's what you're dealing with now.

I want to encourage you, if this is part of your story, your healing is just in front of you. It is part of what we do at New Life. We want you to take a step into something that you may think, no, nothing's going to help, I'm stuck this way. But the women that go to Restore, I know, I've talked to so many of them over the years, they are free.

When I say free, I don't mean the marriage ended or anything like that because there's lots of different outcomes. It really is understanding what happened to you and how to move forward and to have a community around you that's going to spur you on and help you feel connected when so many things can help you feel so isolated. We want you to be there. So join us in Dallas, March 6th through 8th.

Dr. John Townsend: Guys, can I say a word about that? Having been around the New Life workshop model for many, many years, it's the best thing out there. People actually experience miracles, breakthroughs, transformation, freedom, closer to God, closer to people. It is a wonderful, wonderful and effective program. I highly recommend it.

Brian Perez: Well, we're going to quote you on that, John. Feel free. That's next weekend, March 6th through the 8th in Dallas, Texas. You can get the details at NewLife.com or by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE. It is for women.

Guys might be thinking, "Well, I've been betrayed too. I wish you would do something for me." Well, for you, we do have something tomorrow. This is for men and women. It's a webinar, and you can get the details about it by texting the word WEBINAR to 28950. I heard how many people have signed up for this so far. It's mostly women. I don't know, maybe guys are thinking that it's not for them, but it is, right Becky?

Becky Brown: Yeah, there's actually we do have a segment of the attendees that are men, because we're not talking about how betrayal hits all of us at some point. It's not just betrayal with a husband or a wife. It's also, people have experienced betrayal in relationships where somebody, whether they took money from you or maybe they said something that was not correct and you trusted this person and you think, "Well, I don't know what to do. I don't know how to move forward."

There are some basic things that if we have a clear understanding of how betrayal affects us, we can have incredible freedom and healing. We want to invite you to the webinar too.

Brian Perez: That is tomorrow at 7:00 PM Central Time. You can get the details at NewLife.com. You can register. It's only 24.99 per person. If you're thinking, "Oh, I've already got plans tomorrow," register anyway because after the webinar's done, we're going to send you a link where you can watch the webinar on your own time for about a week or so. So just register right now before you forget. Go to NewLife.com, call us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE, or text the word WEBINAR to 28950 and we'll send you the link. You'll also get a free tip sheet when you text WEBINAR to 28950.

More phone calls coming up. 1-800-229-3000.

Becky Brown: Hello, this is Becky Brown. I am so excited to launch our 99 for the 1 partner initiative. Every day, we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression, all kinds of ways, and it reminds us of the story in Luke 15 where the shepherd leaves the 99 to go rescue the one.

You know, we've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life, and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99 for the 1 is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE, 1-800-639-5433, or NewLife.com/99for1.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

Brian Perez: Every day, so much gets done here at New Life, and not just here on the radio and podcast. It's all because of the gifts made by you, our generous viewers and listeners. Becky, we often get calls on New Life LIVE from longtime listeners, first-time callers. I'd love it today if we could get some longtime listeners, first-time donors. What do you think?

Becky Brown: Oh, I 100% agree with that. I want to invite you, if you have benefited from hearing from us and have been part of the ministry, well, take one more step and be part of helping others find new life. We just started our 99 for the 1 partners where you can give on a monthly basis and it helps us do so much. The subtitle to our 99 for the 1 partners is "Rescue the One, Restore the Many," and that's what we've been doing for close to 40 years. There's somebody that needs help and hope today, and by participating in your generosity towards the ministry, you're being part of what God's doing through New Life. I want to invite you to be part of it. You can go to NewLife.com. Brian, I'm sure you have all kinds of ways for them to give.

Brian Perez: I do. NewLife.com/99for1, or you can call 1-800-NEW-LIFE or text NLM to 28950. Thank you so much for whatever you can do. Your generosity is changing lots of lives.

Becky Brown: Brian, I want to say one more thing. I know I got to host yesterday, but I'm going to jump in here and I just can't say enough gratitude towards Dr. John Townsend. I know John, you have changed my life personally because of the work that you've done through New Life many years ago. You are the OG.

But also because of so many people I know across the country who have participated in the Townsend Leadership Program as well as the Counselor program and the PhD. From a professional standpoint, because I had to go through all the schooling and the licensing, your program stands the test of time. You're CACREP accredited, the regular person doesn't know that means anything, but whenever I talk to somebody who's seeking this career for their life, it's part of what has to be done. You have shown excellence. John, how can people be part of what you're doing?

Dr. John Townsend: Well, first they got to have a passion. They got to think. I always tell people, what when you were six years old, what were you into? Well, some say, well, it was the kids that were hurting and maybe felt disenfranchised. They came to me for some reason. I didn't have any answers, but they came to me. Well, sound like a counselor to me.

Or some people would say, you know, you always encourage me, you make me feel like I can do the thing. I can be on the baseball team, I can ask that girl out. Well, you're a coach. Or the person that says, hey, you be the leader of the hockey team or you be the person who's in running dance. Well, that's leadership.

Find out where God put that inside you and then you develop it and then you call us. Brian's already asked me what the address is. It's TownsendInstitute.com. Just say I'm thinking about a future. Remember, it's not about education. Education is a way to opportunity to be who God meant you to be, to take the ceiling off. This might be your time to say, I want to be something different. If that happens and you call and you say, okay, I got this from New Life LIVE when I was talking to John and his friends, then we'll waive your admission fee.

Brian Perez: I love that. TownsendInstitute.com. We solved problems all the time here at New Life. All right, back to the phones. 1-800-229-3000. Donna in Philadelphia, who's watching us on YouTube. So let's wave hi to Donna. Thank you so much for calling in today. What's your question for Becky Brown and our guest Dr. John Townsend?

Donna: Hi. Well, thank you so much. It is the privilege to be on real-time with Dr. Townsend. It is a blessing. I have been so blessed by his books, and in particularly, Boundaries in Marriage. Let me just tell you a little bit about myself. I've been married for over 40 years, and my husband, I'm a believer, my husband says he's a believer, but he doesn't go to church so there's a question there.

He's a good provider, he's meticulous in all that he does, but in my observation, he lacks empathy. Sometimes it's all about him. He wakes up, he's always happy. I have a melancholy personality, so if I'm in a bad mood, he usually gets me out of that negative mood. And that's a good thing.

But it seems like he's also a controlling person. He likes to micro-manage me. I could be doing a cleaning task and he says, "Oh, you can do that a better way." So I'm constantly trying to improve myself, but he's not. He thinks what he's doing is the right way and that's the only way.

So my question is, and the reason why I love your books is that you use Scripture in order to validate your point. But there's a chapter in the book that is how do you work with a spouse who understands and values boundaries and how do you work with one who doesn't? When my husband triggers me—and he knows how to play some triggers into my life—how do I respond? Because I'm used to responding no matter what I try to do and how many times I'm reading the books and trying to do the right thing, he knows how to trigger me and I always respond negatively. So I want to find something I can do when I hear it and I know it's coming up, I'm going to respond negatively. What can I do? A-B-C in order to get out of that space.

Dr. John Townsend: A-B-C. Let's think A and B and C, Donna. You want something that you can probably apply right now to get out of this problem. The A is don't wait till the next time he triggers you. Then we get—I loved when Becky started the show saying watch out when you're reactive because then you're in your amygdala, we call it amygdala hijack, and then you're in fight or flight, you're crazy, you're reactive, you're hurt. Nothing really good happens then.

When he triggers you, it turns you back into your three-year-old Donna, and nothing really growth-producing happens then. We want you to take the initiative in a conversation. I'll call your husband Sam. You go to him and say, "I want better for us. By the way, Donna, you listed a lot of things he does, and this is not about how to change a personality overnight."

I want you to kind of think about one thing he does. Instead of "you don't have empathy" and "you don't go to church" and "you're controlling," nobody's going to like that. But if you say, "When you say certain things, I don't know if you mean it or not, but I want it better when you say something that is an ouch to me, I want us to be able to talk about it."

Very simply, he may not just be aware. He may go, "I didn't know I said that when I said that your makeup wasn't good and then you got your feelings." We call that walking over landmines in somebody's head. It's nobody's fault. There's some hurt or trauma from the back and all of a sudden it gets you hurt. But it's good for a spouse to know what the landmines are.

So you say, "Well, I have a sensitivity to X. Something about my appearance or something about the way I raise kids or cook or whatever, and I'd like to have that when I can say to you, 'Can you be aware of that?' and if it happens can I just say 'Ouch, honey,' and you say, 'Well, yeah, just say okay, tell me another way to say it.'"

If your husband's a good man, and I kind of like it that he—if you're melancholy and he brings you up, he's got some good stuff. 40 years says something too. So we're not talking about a really bad guy here. We're talking about a good guy who's got some glitches. Just say, in this area, it would mean a lot.

Then say the following to him, and this is a tough one. "And what can I do with the things that I do that bother you? Tell me one thing I do that alienates you, that hurts your feelings, or that just kind of pushes you away, and I want to be better than that too." Now you guys are lockstep in a good marriage and saying, "Oh, we're listening to each other again." That's kind of A and B. I don't have a C, but I think that's A and B. Becky, do you have a C?

Becky Brown: I can, yeah, I absolutely can do C. Get curious, Donna.

Dr. John Townsend: Oh, and she puts the C on there. I didn't do that. That's so Becky Brown. You know, that is leadership right there.

Becky Brown: Thanks, John. But literally, Donna, one of the things that I was thinking is when you said you're melancholy, you're the happiest melancholy person I think I've ever heard. So I wonder, when you think about a long-term marriage—I've been married almost 42 years myself—there are rhythms that we get into that we get complacent. There's another C.

I want to encourage you to get curious as opposed to, like I said earlier, don't defend. You've got to be open in order to address the issues. But man, John, that A, that'll preach for a lot of people. Don't wait for the trigger. Recognizing that you have triggers, that's power because then you can work on your own triggers. It's not the buttons that they push, it's the fact that you got buttons that you don't know can be pushed.

Brian Perez: He pushed the music button. It's time to go to break. We'll be back on New Life LIVE.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

1-800-229-3000 is the number to call us for the rest of this hour and all of next. I'm Brian Perez, here with Dr. John Townsend, our special guest, and Becky Brown, the president of New Life Ministries, who's a licensed professional clinical counselor, and we are speaking with Missy, who is in Sacramento, listening on NewLife.com. Hi there, Missy. Thanks for calling in today.

Missy: Hello. Thank you for taking my call.

Brian Perez: Of course. How can we help you? What's going on?

Missy: Three years ago, my step-daughter told my husband and I that our 15-year-old grandson wanted to transition from being a boy to a girl. We were told that we could not have a conversation with him about it. We were required to call him by his new female name and use the proper pronoun, "she," in order to have a relationship with her and her son.

So we agreed to the name and the pronoun and we have maintained a relationship with the family. But my daughter—my daughter at the time had a five-year-old daughter who idolized our grandson and she did not want to have to explain what transgender meant to a five-year-old. So she stepped away from the family, which caused a lot of resentment with my step-daughter.

About three months ago, we had a heart-to-heart with my step-daughter, and I just told her how I felt, that I was concerned about all the hormones and if he ever wanted to have a child later on in life that that might not happen, and felt like he was too young to really know. I was just being very vulnerable and said I pray every day that this grandson would be the man that God has created him to be.

Brian Perez: So what's your main question for us, Missy?

Missy: That set off a firestorm in the family as being intolerant, bigoted. The whole family has cut me off. They do not want a relationship with me anymore.

Becky Brown: Missy, it's so hard when these—I mean, they're really new conversations in these last few years in the culture we hear more and more about this. It's hard to speak your truth in an effort to draw closer, but the hard part is that it's not what they want to hear. I commend you for saying what you needed to say.

The challenge is where do you go next? I'm kind of curious as to how long there has been estrangement and was there any—like you say the whole family, are you just talking about your step-daughter and that side of the family, or are you also talking about your daughter? When you talk about family, who are we talking about?

Missy: It's my husband's side of the family. My step-son, his sister, brother-in-law. It's a small family on his side, but yeah.

Becky Brown: Okay. And then did they say anything about "in order for us to be together again, XYZ has to happen"?

Missy: No, they didn't. No. It was only one F-word. So that was it. My husband's trying to repair the relationship with his daughter over there, but no one wants to talk to me. That's fine for me right now because I feel like I need to protect myself from their anger right now.

Becky Brown: Well, Missy, what you're talking about is grief. There's a big loss that's happening. It's like a ripple effect. First loss was this decision on the part of the transitioning, and then the confusion that comes from trying to understand, and then being vulnerable enough to say what you needed to say but then being rejected because you were vulnerable.

There's sadness that goes with all of that and there's not an easy fix. I wish there was, but if there was I would tell you. But the first step, I think, Missy, is for you to grieve. There's a part of me that wants for you to send an email to the group just saying, "I'm so sorry for expressing myself and I hope someday that we can be a family again."

Do you see how that's all neutral language except for just recognizing I've hurt your feelings in some way? It doesn't negate what your truth is, but so many relationships we move to estrangement as opposed to resolving the fact that we're going to not agree on a lot of things and we're going to try and stay in relationship along the way. John, I would be interested to hear what you have to say.

Dr. John Townsend: Yeah, our heart goes out to you, Missy. You love your family, you're trying to do it God's way, and then really bad stuff happens when you bring up some concept or principle that people don't like, and I'm sorry. That just has to be a wound.

I was thinking about—I really like Becky's plan. I would probably put a piece into her equation a little before that, and that is I think you're wounded. What that means is you kind of said clearly, "I've just been so hurt by their anger, I don't know if I can do this." And what you can't do, you can't do. We would never send you back in the fire.

The Bible talks a lot about strengthening each other and comforting, like 2 Corinthians 1 says comfort each other with the comfort we've been comforted. I think you need a season, I think you need a timeout, and a good timeout, not a mean timeout. I think you need a timeout with some people and say, "I've just been sort of in a war zone and I need to know that I can get strength from you and acceptance. I've got some grieving to do."

Take some time with some good people in your life—therapist, pastoral counselor, friend, mentor, who cares. But say, "Because I want to go back in there and then do the right thing and I am too beat up and my skin is too thin right now." So get the comfort and help and strengthening and empowering that you need.

Then, I love Becky's plan when you go back in and say, "Sorry it went wrong," and I would probably add to that, "Tell me what it takes to relate to you guys again." It might be, "Well, just use the pronouns and accept that." You can say, "Can I accept without agreeing? I have to say that." And people say, "No, you must agree." Then I go, "How do I do that?" But if they can accept the fact that you disagree but you're doing it because you love them and you'll use those pronouns, that doesn't solve all the problems of the other kid, and that's a whole other conversation, but it gets you back in alliance where you need to be.

Brian Perez: What do you say to somebody who disagrees with what you just said right now? That "no, I will absolutely—I can't, I would never use those pronouns."

Becky Brown: Well, I think there's a way around that particular part of the problem. I've talked to people in this very situation where they just don't use those—they just change their sentence structure because their goal is to stay in relationship. We are in relationships with lots of people who we don't agree with a lot of what they do. But for whatever reason, we have influence in their life.

It's harder to love people that don't completely align with us, but yet that's what we're called to do. I know there's people that are going to call us and go, "Becky, you're approving." No, I didn't say approve. I just said holding space. Holding space.

Dr. John Townsend: Great answer.

Brian Perez: Missy, thanks for your phone call today here on New Life LIVE. Don't let people you know struggle alone. Tell them about our radio program, about our podcast, about our YouTube channel, our website, NewLife.com. We've got so much going on.

We're going to stay in the studio for another hour, so if you're on hold right now, don't hang up. We're going to get to as many calls as we can and we're going to keep the phone lines open. So if you want to call us at 1-800-229-3000, please do. Dr. John Townsend from TownsendInstitute.com has been our guest, Becky Brown as well. God bless you guys, we'll talk to you next time.

Thanks so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember, we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to NewLife.com to find more information. And thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing, and we're so glad that you're here.