New Life LIVE

Becky Brown: Welcome everyone, it's Becky Brown. I'm your host today. Brian Price is off today, but he'll be back. Joining me today for your phone calls where you can call us at 1-800-229-3000 are the brilliant Dr. Jill Hubbard and the ever-wise Chris Williams. How's that for a great introduction?

Chris Williams: Becky, at about 5:00 this evening, can you come into my house and introduce me to my wife and to my kids?

Becky Brown: I'll FaceTime you, Chris. Listen, you know if you are listening today and you need help, this is your day to call. 1-800-229-3000. Chris and Jill will be answering your questions for the next couple of hours, but right now I want to hear what is on your mind, Chris. What do you have to share with us today?

Chris Williams: This is honestly on the fly, but I just got off the call with a church governance issue. These can be complicated, messy, and difficult. But there is a principle here that I'm looking at and working with that is almost universal. It's for all of us. The church is in a messy situation because of a lack of humility, because of a lack of recognition when something's off and something's wrong, and the ability to receive that feedback well.

The church is like a relationship. I'm using church broadly because obviously there's individuals involved in this and we're going to protect all of that, of course. But one of the things that I think harms us and puts us at liability in our relationships, in our work, and in life, is this inability to receive the truth where we're off, where we're broken, where we're not yet there, where sin may be active and sin may be real.

It's this weird thing because I always say this: God works with the raw material of reality for His redemption. The raw material is that stuff inside of us. That reality is important to come out, to show the truth, to show what it is. God's redemption, His hope, and His grace work with all of it to make something different, to make something new.

But when the initial barrier is to block it, defend it, or deny it, all of the defense mechanisms that we have, we just block out God's best and God's goodness for us. One of the main reasons that happens is because something has happened in our past that has created a wound, has created a hurt and a pain point that remains unhealed and unresolved. Pain by its nature requires defense.

So when we have this unresolved pain in our life and we are defended against it, then we can't allow the healing in. It's no secret to me why the Gospel of Luke, in the way that Luke describes Jesus's work on planet Earth, is always seeming to come with healing and forgiveness, healing and redemption. It speaks to the heartbeat of what we're about here at New Life.

If we are carrying these old wounds, if we are carrying these pain points and it's creating defenses, what we can't see is it's creating a prideful block of what's best and good. We're all human beings. We're all flawed. We all come short of the glory of God. Let's get into the specifics of what that is for our lives so God can do His work. That's really at the heartbeat of what we're doing here at New Life.

Becky Brown: And if that is a surprise to you that you are human and you have flaws, you especially need to call us today at 1-800-229-3000. Chris, I love that description. It reminds me of a child with a splinter in their hand. They don't want anybody to pull that splinter out because it's too painful, yet that's the best thing for them.

There's always something that we can be recovering from, moving to. We're here to help you today. Chris and Jill are some of the smartest people I will ever know, and they will give you so much good advice. I see that Liz is on the line right now. There's more lines open. Call us.

Welcome back. Remember, tomorrow we've got Dr. John Townsend joining us on the show as well. But right now, it's all about Liz, who's calling us from Buffalo. She listens online. Hello, Liz. Thanks for calling today. What's your question for Jill and Chris?

Liz: Hi, thanks so much for taking my call. I'll start with my question, which is what should I do, if anything, to intervene with my mom's compulsive shopping addiction? I'll give you a little bit of background. She's 81, and she's had mental health issues most of her life. I feel like she probably has some features of borderline personality disorder, although she hasn't really been officially diagnosed.

Since she's been retired, she's had a lot of time on her hands and she has spent tens of thousands of dollars on TV home shopping channels and internet sites. She's got herself into debt. Her credit cards have been frozen. But because she lives with her boyfriend and he allows her to use his credit cards, she is still spending money, paying him back.

So far, she's still paying the bills of her house. I've recently become power of attorney and I'm now monitoring her checking account and seeing all the money that she's spending. Things are being directly debited from her account and they're totaling probably at least $500 a month of unnecessary things.

Because she's on a fixed income, I'm trying to look out for her so that as her health deteriorates, we can afford to have in-home care because she's told me she definitely doesn't want to go to a nursing home. I've asked her not to spend so much money and slow down. I've actually even went as far as shutting down one of her online accounts to one of the shopping sites, which she got very mad at me about, and I understand.

But I'm concerned that the finances are going to run out and I'm looking out for her long-term. I'm trying to balance protecting her dignity and her financial independence but also looking out for her financial security. I'm just looking for any feedback you could give me.

Becky Brown: That is so tough, and so many people are experiencing things like this, Liz. Jill, let's start with you.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Liz, I'm sorry to hear this. It's so difficult because your mom's only 81. So if she's not in dementia, she's still very active. A lot of people, as they get older, if they don't get out as much and if activity declines in their life, just like all of us or younger people, this is an activity for her and it's dopamine hits. When you go shopping and you put down that credit card, it's a dopamine hit that makes you feel powerful. She's getting a lot from it and you're wanting to stand in the way of that. So of course she's going to be upset with you.

But what is either not happening in your mom's life or not happening for her internally? What is she avoiding with all this shopping? She's doing pleasure hits. What is unpleasurable that maybe your mom is trying to not look at?

Liz: Well, she does have chronic pain. She's on narcotics for her pain and there have been a lot of relationship things in her life and trauma.

Chris Williams: When we're dealing with that much internal disruption, if she is in chronic pain and if she's taking narcotics, then there's compromised cognitive abilities. She can't think clearly, but she also can't feel clearly, and there's a great disruption inside of her that she's medicating. That's really, at the end of the day, addiction 101.

One of the things is, in your desire to protect her dignity, you are actually contributing to the lack of dignity. There's a couple of things. I didn't hear you say this, but I just have to say it for my sake to remind you: the last thing you do, which is meaning you never do this, is contribute money to the problem. That's just feeding the problem, like her boyfriend's doing.

I think it's to also recognize, and this isn't good news, your own powerlessness in the situation. When we're dealing with addiction, we often look at the powerlessness of the person in the addictive process, and of course it's there. But if they're powerless, how much more powerless are the people around them? Everyone's trying to gain power over this, control over this uncontrollable situation.

I think what you're doing is good. I think as much as you legally can do to mitigate the problem is really good. I think the other aspect of this is that there may be consequences to this that you can't do anything about that just have to play themselves out.

Liz: I'm debating whether or not I... she had a talk with me after I shut the one account down and drew the line in the sand saying, "Don't do that again." But I feel like if I'm seeing money flying out of the account, what other choices do I have?

Dr. Jill Hubbard: But you're also looking at it from a very practical stance and according to you having to manage things later on. I think you have to look at and ask your mom, "Tell me why you like this so much." Get her to talk about it so that you understand it and so you can have some empathy for her. You can also say, "Mom, you've also told me that these are your desires. I'm trying to protect your future desires and so that's where I'm frustrated. How do we work together? Because in the future if you want me to keep you at home, I'm not going to be able to do that if there's no money."

Becky Brown: I'm wondering, Liz, how do you talk with your mom? Not about this subject, but just in general, what is the relationship like on a day-to-day basis?

Liz: I try to call her every day and check in and see how she's doing and ask her how she's feeling and what's going on in her life. Our conversations are usually pretty short. But I probably am guilty of talking to her around the shopping and finances with a bit of condescension, which is not helping.

Becky Brown: Your frustration and anger is coming out. Liz, here's the reality: there's so many people that are in your situation where you've got an elderly parent and it kind of sneaks up on you. In all different ways she's pretty self-sufficient and then boom, here's this real big issue. The reason why I asked what kind of conversations you're having is because you switch from the parental role to the adult friend role to the daughter role to the power of attorney role. You could lock everything down, but I think it would be better to have a conversation. I don't know how long the boyfriend's been in the picture, if he's long-term or if he's considered family. He would be in the conversation.

Liz: We were talking about sitting down, the three of us, to discuss finances just to see if she's open to that. I know he is because he contributes to the household expenses.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: He's going to need some boundaries around this as well and some understanding of how he's wanting to please her in the moment. But also Liz, you've identified you've got to work on not being condescending to your mom. She isn't your child, and you do have to show her some respect and realize that you don't really know what it's like to be in her shoes.

First you need to give care and understanding, compassion for her situation, her pain, and that this may be one of the few joys that she has to kind of escape from all of that. Give her some real understanding and then consider options so that she can still spend some, it just may not be as much.

Liz: And that's what I've recommended. I've said, "Hey, I'm not saying you can't spend any money, but can we keep this under a certain amount?"

Dr. Jill Hubbard: But she can't do that herself. So it would have to be, like you do with a kid, the card just declines or something. There would have to be some safeguards.

Chris Williams: And I think that's going with that as well, Jill, because she also has to live. Is there a way to start with, "Hey, let's make sure basic necessities are met"? Get a real clear budget around it, not to say that she can follow it, but that everyone around her has a clarity on, "Here's the living expenses, here's the ledger, here's the budget, here's the number." And then in addition to that number, here's the expendable income and the rest of it... boyfriend, if you're going to keep giving her money, we're not paying you back eventually.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: But also what other activities does your mom have or is capable of? Can she get out of the house? Can she go to things? Let's get some other things that bring life into her life.

Liz: She just isn't taking advantage of the activities that are available to her. She has a friend two doors down that goes to the senior center and she's been invited to go, but she won't.

Becky Brown: Liz, you mentioned earlier in the question that you think she would be borderline personality disorder. So there's history of some disconnection in your relationship. Are you the only child that she had?

Liz: No, I have a sister. Their relationship has been rocky. They are now talking, but in the past, they've gone years without talking.

Chris Williams: Well Liz, here's a principle I want to give you in the midst of all of this. When you're dealing with someone whose behavior is out of control and you love them dearly and you want to care for them dearly, the principle here still remains the same: because they've lost their well-being doesn't mean I have to lose mine.

That principle there is saying that whatever unhealth they're involved in, or even destruction, what I want to do as much as humanly possible is protect myself from that contagion. Her spending behavior can then impact your well-being. Therefore you'll live out of control because she's out of control. So first and foremost, what I'm responsible for is my own well-being, not the well-being of another person. What am I doing for myself in this process?

Liz: I have to set boundaries.

Becky Brown: I think that's the hardest part, Liz, because you've tried, but you're running into her boundaries of "I'm going to do what I want when I want." That's just a real hard place to be. I would also suggest it might be helpful to have a therapist be in the conversation with the three of you. Because sometimes they can manage the feelings and all of the things that come into those really difficult places. I hope something that we've said today, Liz, is helpful to you and thanks for calling.

Welcome back. You are going to want to join us today. 1-800-229-3000. We've got Chris Williams and Dr. Jill Hubbard answering your calls today. Did you know that we have an international audience? We get people all over the world that are listening at different times and we're so grateful for that. We have a caller that submitted a question and it's from Jennifer in India.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Wow, I love it. We had a caller a few weeks back from Budapest. New Life is global.

Becky Brown: So this is from Jennifer. "I'm 37 years old. I live in India. I've walked with the Lord for many years. However, I've been battling deep-rooted trauma connected to abandonment, rejection, and abuse that began in childhood. My parents divorced due to my father's alcoholism. I grew up without security, without affirmation, and without emotional covering. The rejection continued through strained relationships and later manifested in repeated toxic and abusive relationships.

Despite counseling, therapy, prayer, retreats, and medication, I'm still struggling. The most critical issue is chronic insomnia. I'm unable to sleep normally. My mind does not rest. My body does not shut down. This has taken a severe toll on my emotional, mental, and spiritual health. I recognize patterns of codependency, self-abandonment, and attracting unhealthy individuals. I've fought this for years, but I'm struggling with years of sleeplessness. I really need help from a lot of trauma. What should I do now?" That is a big question.

Chris Williams: It's a helpful reminder that this isn't just an American experience. This is a human experience. This happens all over the world. Obviously we see this in Scripture. But the pain of relationship and the pain of rupture in relationship has profound effects.

First and foremost, my heart goes out to Jennifer because she puts in all of this work and my heart breaks that like, come on, let the work work for her. But the truth of the matter is for some of this, it really is a lifelong journey. It requires staying with it on a day-to-day basis. For those of us that struggle with addiction, we understand one day at a time, and it's really one day at a time for the rest of our lives.

At first that sounds daunting. It sounds overwhelming. It sounds really unfair, too. But the more we do the work, the more we journey, the more we stick with it, we realize at the end that that one day at a time for the rest of our lives is a profound gift. It's not a curse.

But with this said, my thought came to me this way for Jennifer. One of the things that is true for all of us is each and every one of us has an identity. What happens in early childhood is through mirroring neurons and relationships, identity formation happens primarily through the mirror of relationship... what other people mirror back to us about who we are and what we are. Her mirrors of relationship formed an identity inside of her that was really painful.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: They were inaccurate and inadequate mirrors. It's kind of like the funhouse or really it's more of like a horror house, you know, of these fun mirrors that are all distortions. So that she's not good enough, she doesn't matter, she doesn't have value, she's unlovable. That becomes so ingrained into our core that we need a new identity.

Chris Williams: And it's almost separate from our cognitive beliefs or our knowledge. We need that head and heart connection to then have the change. We know what's right. She's been walking with the Lord, she knows what's right, but how do you get that into the depths of your being and that little child inside of you who believes what they were taught from an early age?

I think it takes a lot of work. One of the pieces that I want to give to Jennifer today is that when we do identity work, we can't look at it as "I did it today, therefore I'm good." It has to be practiced every day. What I would do is I would just start with one tangible identity in Christ. The great thing about our identity in Christ is it is infinitely valuable and it's immutable, meaning it doesn't change.

You start with "I am a beloved child of God." Now at first it's going to feel like a cognitive exercise that doesn't move the needle at all. But I think if you spend 10 minutes a day looking at that, meditating on that, and then what you want to do is start training your eyes, your ears, your nose, your mouth, your whole body to start looking for ways in which you are a beloved child of God.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: And this is important because in doing the trauma work, there are different phases to it. A lot of times people get stuck in that second phase of just revisiting the trauma over and over and over again. You really have to balance it out with how do I live now, and how do I not take the trauma with me into the day-to-day? We need those reparative relationships that can walk beside us.

Chris Williams: Absolutely. And we have to understand that trauma comes with shame. That's what we're talking about, the identity piece, and they become the lens, the glasses that we interpret everything in the world through. It's a dogfight to put on a new set of glasses and start seeing things differently and not do the self-fulfilling prophecy.

Becky Brown: Listen, we've got more to say about that and we'll talk about it after the break because I wanted to address the sleeplessness, which is a sign of trauma.

Welcome back. I want to say one more thing about Jennifer's question from India. Talking about her insomnia, so many people struggle with sleep and we don't understand how much that impacts our well-being. As she has gone through this trauma recovery and her mind does not rest, her body does not shut down. A lot of times it's because we've disrupted what was keeping everything at bay and then we just think about it all the time. But how do we get back to restorative sleep?

Dr. Jill Hubbard: I know what I have to do. During times of great stress, when you wake up in the middle of the night and your brain's going crazy, I have to remind myself that that's not a time to make decisions or draw conclusions about anything. Then I have to park my brain somewhere. So I either have to read or listen to a sermon or a podcast or something that... and I often choose someone with a more soothing voice that I like, and that helps me go back to sleep.

Chris Williams: Insomnia has the potential to have so many different sources. What we looked at with Jennifer is that sleep is the most vulnerable thing we'll do in any given day. So when your life is marked by pain, by being in a vulnerable position... a child is in a vulnerable position. You learn that vulnerability isn't safe. You have to be hyper-alert. So resting isn't okay.

The brain actually activates more in a place of vulnerability, not less. Finding safety mechanisms and sleep hygiene... you almost have to then train yourself, not when it's time for bed, but two hours before bed to really go through that process to calm yourself, to wind down, to find myself in an ability to sleep.

Listen, it's been a Whack-a-Mole in my own life, insomnia. There are times where it's like I just, if I wake up, I call it getting pinged awake. If I get pinged awake, I'm not going back to sleep. I'm going to just get up and be productive. I'm going to do something. The other aspect of it over the last few years, I've learned to just give myself a little bit more time to get back to sleep. You've got to learn how you sleep.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: It kind of takes on a life of its own and then people get really anxious about it. But if you don't feel safe and if you don't feel like your environment is safe, then you need to have a lock on your door, you need to create an environment that feels at least safe enough. Just a reminder, Isaiah 26:3 says "You will keep him in perfect peace, he whose mind is stayed on You." That's a combination of NLT, NKJV and all the things, but it really is one of those practices where we meditate on God's word, it can help us go back to sleep.

Becky Brown: We're going to go back to the calls now. We are going to talk with Sarah, who's calling us from San Diego and watches us online. Hi Sarah, thanks for calling. How can we help you today?

Sarah: Hello, thank you. I have a friend who's a Christian and has a newborn baby and she's living with her boyfriend and just discovered he has a porn and sex addiction. What would be the best way to advise her since they're not married?

Becky Brown: And this is the father of the baby?

Sarah: Yeah, the father of the baby.

Chris Williams: Well, there's a few different things. I think most importantly to start off with is that you mentioned that she has a newborn. So there are so many different factors playing upon her life right now. Being a new mother is its own... it's not even a full-time job, that's such a misnomer. It's an all-time job. It's an all-encompassing job and that's where you need and want your energy to go. Even hormonally, we're wired that way.

If he has this addiction, most likely it's on fire right now because all the attention is going to the baby and no attention is going to him. I think the most important thing is for this friend of yours, Sarah, to understand the impact that his addiction is having on her. One of the things that happens in here is that we participate in the addict's defense mechanisms like, "Oh, it's not that big of a deal," or take it to the bank, he's minimizing the thing.

He's minimizing his behavior and creating an alternate reality to keep it alive. It's easy to participate in that because she has so much going on, she's like, "I don't have time or energy to address this." But understanding that this addiction is deeply impacting his ability to show up for her and for their baby, the ability to provide the most essential part of his role, and that is trust and safety. He's breaking trust and safety.

So the clear boundaries that she needs is like, "This doesn't work for us. Hard stop." There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. So here's what I need you to do to get into your healing and recovery if we have any shot of being together.

Becky Brown: I'm wondering, Sarah, do you know if they have other people, like does he have any men in his life that can speak into this new role as a father?

Sarah: She's an older mom, so this isn't her first child. She has grown kids. So she already knew the right questions to ask and of course when he said he didn't have an addiction, she believed it. She was able to set boundaries once she found out and said, "Well, you need to go and tell a man at church and then you need to tell me who it was that you did that with." He did do that and he's been going to groups and he's been more active in church and he's doing the things. But it's kind of hard because they're not married, so it's not like you can say you should split up or...

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Yeah, but if she's involved in church, why are they living together? There's a certain dependency there and they've had a baby together. Those are good things she asked him to do. It'd be really great if he could go to Every Man's Battle. We have an online version this week. But I think it's also, okay, you've allowed this person in without the proper boundaries. It may be he's got this sexual addiction, but she's also has some boundary issues herself in her walk. That's a hard thing to say to a friend, but it may be that they need to live separate while he's working out this problem.

Becky Brown: Up until this point, whether they were married or not didn't really matter because now they have a child. Why does marriage all of a sudden become the line? They're living like they're married. I think the reason why I asked about the other men is because I think that's a very powerful tool, and also some internet restrictions in your house.

Chris Williams: Here's the tragic mistake I see over and over and over again. Steve used to quote this from Scripture: we take deep wounds with superficial cures. Sexual addiction and pornography addiction are really, really strong, complex psychological mental health issues that when we look at it, it kind of drives me nuts, guys, because I'm always just like, well, we just kind of need a little bit more male accountability. Trust me, that is not going to work. That is a fool's errand. It's not saying that that isn't part of it. That is one of the many different aspects of the process.

Again, it's what I love about what we do here at New Life. Because when a guy goes into Every Man's Battle, he will get a firehose of information in that 48 hours, but he'll also get the tools and the follow-up that as I mentioned as an addict, one day at a time, every single day. You can't just be like, "I met with this guy once a week and therefore it's cured." It does not work that way. It never works that way. I just want to be adamant about that to make sure that we're not again doing a fool's errand on a really important issue.

Becky Brown: I'm glad you called, Sarah. I would encourage her to say you need to go to Every Man's Battle this Saturday. It's online and it'll be the next step in the right direction.

Welcome back. I want to do a big call out right now for our 99 for the 1 family, those people who are giving on a monthly basis to help us do ministry. Literally every day we get calls from people who are looking for help. We get calls both on the show as well as to our ministry office and people are in hurting places. We can direct them to counselors, we can direct them to workshops, and you can be part of what God is doing through New Life by joining 99 for the 1.

Every dollar makes a difference and maybe today is the day that you join what God is doing through New Life. I just can't say enough thanks to those who are part of it already, you are making a difference in the lives of so many people.

Now, we're going to go back to the calls. Right now we're going to talk with Celia, she's calling us from Alpharetta and listens on SiriusXM. Thank you for calling, Celia. How can we help you?

Celia: I was calling to give an example of a good way that I get back to sleep either if I can't fall asleep or if I've woken up in the middle of the night and can't get back to sleep. I had a therapist years ago tell me to say the Lord's Prayer 10 times, and you start out at your normal speaking speed and you slowly get slower saying it each time until by the time you get to 10, you're saying it really slow and really impactful because you're taking your time.

Your brain literally doesn't have time to think about anything else. It doesn't have time to think that you're awake and you should be asleep and you're getting up in a few hours. When she first told me, I thought this is never going to work. After doing it, I can tell you it puts me back to sleep every time.

I have a son who has struggled with addiction and there were times when I couldn't fall asleep or I couldn't stay asleep. When I started doing it, I would start out saying, "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name," that speed. By the time you get to eighth or ninth time, you're saying, "Our... Father... who... art... in... heaven... hallowed... be... Thy... name." And you're really just thinking about that, and I'm telling you it worked. So for all your listeners, I hope it helps them.

Becky Brown: I love that, Celia. And how's your son doing now? What's the rest of that story?

Celia: He is four months clean and sober as of February 2nd. It's a journey. He's been dealing with this for years. So God has him and I know that, and he is finally leaning into the God side of it, not just going through AA and living in the community where all of them are recovering. It's just a blessing when he calls me and says, "Oh, this happened today and it was such a God thing." I love that he recognizes it's not a coincidence. The world likes to call it a coincidence, but we know it's a God thing. I just found you guys. I just stumbled upon you guys about three months ago just scrolling through Sirius. So now you guys are some of my favorites.

Chris Williams: Celia, I want to point out something that's really important. It's about how God has designed our brain. In the lower part of our brain, what's called the autonomic nervous system or even a little bit deeper than that, our limbic system, one of its primary jobs is life, to keep us alive. One of the things is that it looks out for threats, it looks out for danger.

That part of the brain operates at about 4 billion bytes per second. Then we have this other part of our brain called the prefrontal cortex, which is sort of like I like to refer to it as our God brain. It's our best ingenuity, the place where we best connect and create. That operates at 4 million bytes per second.

So let's put that in miles per hour. The lower part of our brain to keep us alive operates at 4,000 miles an hour, and the part of our brain that operates in best operates at 4 miles an hour. So we can feel inside of us that anxiety is fast and furious because it is fast and furious.

In repeating the Lord's Prayer and slowing it down is so genius because it's calming that anxious part of us, that obsessive part, the fast and furious part of us, as well as obviously grounding us into God and in His life and His care and His will. That slowing down of the brain I think is really, really important. I always like to quote this movie, profoundly philosophical and deeply spiritual movie called "Cars."

Doc tells Lightning McQueen something really profound that is so true in the way that God has designed our internal world. He says, "If you want to go faster, you have to learn how to slow down." And I think that that is true in insomnia. It is typically a process where our brain does not know how to slow down. So slowing down is really important, grounding ourselves in safety.

And listen, for those of you out there that are struggling with addiction, addiction and sleep do not go together. Addiction and crashing go together, but addiction and rest do not go together. A heart caught in addiction doesn't have the ability to rest.

Becky Brown: I'm glad your son is four months into his sobriety and his clean time. We all will be praying for him. But you have just given hope to so many moms and dads who are loving their adult sons and daughters through addiction and the struggles that go with it. We see addiction affect so many people and it takes their lives. It literally does. But you have experienced this new chapter and we'll be praying for a long-term result, that he will find his new life. And we're glad you found New Life and we're glad you called today. Thank you so much and God bless you.

It just goes to show you that you never know who's listening who will be encouraged. I love that Celia had already gotten some insight from a counselor that she had worked with. Listen, we've been doing this for close to 40 years and we're not stopping now. You can reach us at 1-800-229-3000 to ask your question here on the show. You never know how one piece or the whole question is going to impact someone's life. As we close out, Chris, give us a quick verse or something to send us on our way today.

Chris Williams: I think a quick verse is "Seek peace and pursue it." It's one of the themes that I saw popping up today is that we're trying to find a place to rest, we're trying to find a place to be safe, we're trying to find the peace of Christ. It is a muscle that needs to be exercised, not a happenstance that is accidental. So seek peace and pursue it today.

Becky Brown: I love that. Thanks, Chris. Thanks, Jill. Thanks, listeners. Call us at 1-800-229-3000. We'll be here. Thanks for listening and we will help you along the way.