New Life LIVE

Guest (Male): Welcome to the New Life Live podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: Hello and welcome to this Groundhog Day edition of New Life Live. It's a repeat of yesterday's show. I'm kidding, we didn't do a show yesterday. I'm Brian Perez, as always happy to be with you. New Life Live hosts have been through it themselves and are ready to share proven strategies. Your breakthrough begins the moment you pick up the phone. Step two is to actually dial the number. It's 1-800-229-3000.

Licensed professional counselor Laura Mangan McDonald is joining us today. You'll be hearing a lot from Laura in the next two hours and in the days and weeks to come, as we'll discuss a little later on. Also here is licensed marriage and family therapist, author Mark Cameron. What's on your mind as we wait for the calls to come in to 1-800-229-3000, Mark?

Mark Cameron: Today I want to talk about that tipping point where a relationship either deepens or it fades. All romantic relationships move through predictable stages, whether we're aware of them or not. They usually begin with this attraction phase, and that's also called the honeymoon phase. That's where it's just a season of intense passion and excitement. Investing in the relationship is very easy because we're energized by all this physical attraction and the novelty of something new. In this stage, often times we idealize the other person and we overlook flaws.

But that doesn't last forever. Eventually comes the discovery stage, and that's where the hormones then eventually fade and the person starts to become human in our eyes. Then differences start to surface because each person then starts to vie for their own needs rather than the joint needs that physical closeness was bringing them.

This isn't the beginning of failure, this is actually the awakening of reality. That moves couples then to this power struggle phase, and that's where conflict occurs through these differences. Then the unwanted core pattern between two people blossoms, and that's where two different attachment styles end up colliding and people just get into the same arguments just with different details. Depending on their attachment style, they'll either pursue with criticism, create emotional distance, or give in to keep the peace.

Those first three stages happen in every relationship, but then it's from here where the tipping point comes. People either tip in three directions: crisis, plateau, or maturity. With crisis, that unresolved conflict tests the foundation of the relationship and often marks the beginning of the end for some relationships because then disconnection happens, stonewalling, resentment. Relationships that aren't built on that accountability or commitment will end up ending there.

Others then choose or end up in this plateau phase, which is a type of commitment. At first, that can seem noble because you're just accepting the other person's flaws not because you're satisfied but because you don't feel like you can change things. But that commitment to stay in the relationship is really driven by fear of not wanting to be alone, maybe it's finances, maybe you just don't want to share your kids in custody, or maybe it's faith, it's a negative judgment for others. People adapt and then they quietly get their needs met elsewhere. That often looks like people living like roommates or then getting into addictions or affairs might start in this phase, and then that can push people back to crisis.

But then there's maturity, and not everybody reaches this. This happens when spouses use that conflict to examine their own flaws and grow. Instead of asking what's wrong with you, they start to ask what is this revealing in me. Hollywood loves to make movies about the beginning of relationships, that spark, that chase, that passion, and then the end of the relationship, the crash, the drama, or the heartbreak. But not many movies are made about two people sitting across from each other learning to listen with empathy, identifying that core pattern, and choosing growth over blame.

Someone once said that fire has two elements: that of burning and that of shedding light. So the question isn't whether there's a spark between the two of you. The question is, are you using that light to expose and address your areas of growth? Because it's easy to be drawn to someone's surface, but marriage or any lasting relationship only reaches that depth of maturity through nurtured intention.

Brian Perez: No matter what stage you're in in your relationship, you can give us a call today and speak with Mark and Laura Mangan McDonald. The phone number to call is 1-800-229-3000. If you're watching on Facebook or YouTube, we'd love to hear from you as well.

Guest (Male): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: We just heard from Mark Cameron at the beginning of today's show. He was also a guest again on today's episode of the Every Man's Battle podcast. He continued his discussion on ways attachment styles shape sex, love, and addiction. Listen on the podcast platform of your choice or at newlife.com, the New Life Ministries YouTube channel, or on the New Life app. Let's go to the phones now at 1-800-229-3000. Really quick, I introduced Laura Mangan McDonald, but I forgot to say hi to her. So Laura, hi, I'm sorry.

Laura Mangan McDonald: Hey Brian, I'm so glad to be here. I love hanging out with you all.

Brian Perez: It's going to be great to hear from you for the next two hours. We're going to begin our time on the phones with Sarah in Baltimore, who's got a really good friend who told her to call in to New Life Live. Thank you so much for calling in, Sarah. What's your question for us today?

Sarah: Hi. Yes, I am looking for some help. I grew up in a toxic home, toxic mother, and I am in a marriage with a husband who has been toxic with addictions to opioids and other things. It's affected my health. I've had some gut issues and health issues that I'm just trying to recover from. I'm realizing that it's just a culmination of my entire life and situations added up.

Brian Perez: How long have you two been married?

Sarah: Since 2009.

Brian Perez: Okay, so about 16, 17 years now. Laura, what questions do you have for Sarah?

Laura Mangan McDonald: Sarah, what is just overarching here is I'm hearing betrayal. When we trust someone and they are not looking out for our best interest, we're going to experience betrayal. I'm wondering, have you reached out to friends? Have you been in any type of therapy to help validate the experiences you're going through?

Sarah: For a long time I didn't because I was embarrassed, but I've reached out to friends. I have a good friend now that told me to call. Other counselors, even Christian counselors, they have told me, "Well, your marriage might end. Well, you're the better person." It's not what I want to hear. So I haven't found a great counselor to help.

Laura Mangan McDonald: Well, and I'll tell you what's going on there. We can't intellectually convince someone of what happened emotionally in an emotional wound. It just doesn't work. So I'm so glad you called in today so we can help you get hooked up with a Christian counselor that understands trauma-informed therapy.

Until then, what I want you to be able to do is to know that you're not making this up. Your body is setting off an internal alarm going, "I'm not safe." We cannot override that. That's really what makes us feel crazy is when I try to tell my body to settle down or don't worry, and it can't. God designed our nervous system to set off this alert. Does that make sense?

Sarah: Absolutely.

Laura Mangan McDonald: Okay, so I'm so glad that validates you. I would really encourage you to attend the betrayal webinar in a couple of weeks. I'll be going into all of that. Just being validated, just being able to speak what we're experiencing is 50% of our healing. I totally understand when you say you're embarrassed, and even that makes my heart sad. I think most of us have experienced that. The way I say it is a harm was done, a wrong was done to you, but you're not wrong. I hope you can embrace that. You're not wrong. There is a way here. That way is for you to honor your body and what's happening. Mark, what would you add to that?

Mark Cameron: Sarah, I'm so sorry you're going through that. I get it. You've been to counselors and that's just not where you're at right now. What are you hoping for them to be able to guide you through, and what boundaries have you put in place or you're wanting to put in place?

Sarah: I'm working on the boundaries. I'm almost done with reading the book. There's been a lot of personal growth recently. I just want to know how I can help the situation. If I'm responsible for a certain percentage of it, how can I own that and do better? How can I lead my husband more to Christ so that we can have the family that God wants us to have? I'd like my emotional needs to be met. I feel like I just constantly do a dance. I spin in circles in my head. When me and my husband argue, it's always the same stupid argument, but there's something deeper underlying that never gets resolved.

Mark Cameron: For these needs, these things that you want, these are not unreasonable. I don't think you're responsible for your husband's addiction, but you are part of a cycle. Every marriage has a core pattern that they get into. If that cycle is maintained, there's a part that we're playing to maintain that cycle. While you're not responsible for the hurts that he's doing to you, there probably are some behaviors that you're doing that for him, it's allowed. It's allowed to continue on because there's no consequences to it.

Now, I know that you don't want your marriage to end, and we don't want your marriage to end. But at the same time, there is this possibility that if you say, "Well, this is the boundary that I'm willing to set to continue living in a relationship with you," and he doesn't want to change that, then you're forced with this decision of what am I going to do. If you don't hold a strong boundary here, then that just ends up perpetuating the cycle. What boundaries have you put in place so far and what might you be willing to do?

Sarah: I don't think I've done many. I always have always said that my mom was a doormat, and I'm just realizing that I am too.

Mark Cameron: We tend to repeat what we've learned growing up, whether that's modeling from a parent or whether that's strategies that we had to develop to deal with a parent. It sounds like maybe there's a little bit of both here. You're learning from the modeling. We typically will encourage something called structured levels of separation where you might say to somebody that you're not willing to stay in the same bed as them or you might end up moving out or asking them to move out or something like that.

What happens is then that person is challenged with, "Okay, if I want to maintain my addiction, it comes at this cost." We often say in therapy that people change when the cost of staying the same exceeds the cost of changing here. Unfortunately, often that's what it takes when we don't have this internal motivation of knowing this addiction's a problem and wanting to break it. Oftentimes it's these external consequences on the outside. In situations like you, people feel very powerless and my goal is to try and empower someone to say, "Okay, what's the next step that you can do to move toward empowerment?"

It's also a process too. You can't just jump from, "Okay, we're done, I'm out of here if you want change, then I'm filing the divorce paperwork." But you may also want to think about filing some kind of legal separation in the sense of even if you stay together in the same house, at least separating your finances from another person because people who are in addiction have very short-term thinking and they're very impulsive. Just the act of doing that might end up sending a message to him.

Laura Mangan McDonald: This is something we deal with at Restore all the time. It's a common denominator there. But for Sarah to understand what she believes, like she said, she watched her mom be a doormat and she made a desire not to be a doormat. However, until she had experienced new experiences to internalize those, her internal beliefs are, even though she understands boundaries in her head because boundaries are like simple science, most people get boundaries, but we can't execute the boundary until we believe it in our heart that we deserve to execute it.

She probably feels guilty. "I need to work harder. I probably set him up by doing this." Even though you're responsible to your husband, you're not responsible for him. That's God's law. God sets that boundary up. For you to understand what do you believe, that's where a therapist can really help you or a structured type of life recovery group, a group setting where you can take these fears into the group going, "I love my husband, I want to save my marriage, but here's where I hit these hurdles." Until you understand that, you can try real hard to establish the boundaries, but you're going to default back. What is in our heart will always win. That's why the Lord tells us, "Guard our heart above all else because it determines everything we do." Does that make sense?

Sarah: Yep.

Mark Cameron: I think that's a fantastic point you're making here, Laura. That may be the place where you need to start, Sarah. It may not be setting a boundary right now in this moment if that feels really hard, but it may be processing through what happened to you when you were younger and what's stopping you from setting that boundary. That may be the beginning for you. What do you think, Sarah?

Sarah: My husband is not currently using opioids. He hasn't in seven years, but I know that he's addicted to caffeine and does use kratom. It's like a natural herb that I think is similar. He still has addiction tendencies. I feel a little bit better knowing that I guess he's not using that now. But I think a part of me has always in the past seven years since he stopped using, I just am waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Laura Mangan McDonald: Right, because you don't trust him. Your body knows, Sarah. Your body knows. Your body knows it cannot relax yet. Our body doesn't lie. Learning how to listen to our body is a whole process in and of itself. A person can stop an addiction, but stopping the addiction doesn't stop the problem of where it began. That's how we get a dry alcoholic. They may not have touched alcohol for ten years, but their behavior is that of an alcoholic but just without the alcohol.

I hear you being in this just horrible place of wanting to believe so desperately but knowing there's things that are wrong. I can tell you the greatest thing you can do to have an opportunity, your part is to do an honest self-awareness and understanding of you and how you might contribute. Your contribution isn't like you're directly negatively impacting it, but your inability to speak truth, because God calls us to speak truth, will perpetuate a negative cycle in your marriage for you to understand what do I believe to be able to stand up and go, "No, I will accept this, I won't accept that. Here's God's standards for a marriage and this is what, nothing less." That will be your greatest contribution to the marriage is truthfulness and honesty, God's blueprint.

Mark Cameron: It sounds like he's in some kind of recovery here, Sarah. Is he willing to go to therapy with you?

Sarah: Yes, he said that he would. He's afraid that I'll talk to the therapist separately and then they'll take my side, but he said he'd go.

Mark Cameron: That's real. Well, that's really good. It sounds like he's made a lot of recovery efforts. I guess we wasn't getting that picture at first, so that's really good. It sounds like there still needs to then have that trust part rebuilt because as Laura mentioned before, a betrayal happened, but just because the behavior stops doesn't mean that the trauma all goes away. You likely need somebody to guide you through that trust-building process so that your body can calm down and that you can learn to trust. It sounds like there is some still some level of addiction in there. I wouldn't say that caffeine is the same as doing opiates, but addiction is driven by something. It's a non-relational relief because we don't know what to do with the emotions on the inside, and so we go to a non-relational way to manage it. When we get sober, we don't necessarily solve that other part. Your sobriety just moves the problem out of the way so that we can deal with the root cause. But let us get you hooked up with a therapist.

Brian Perez: Yeah, we also want to send you a registration for Laura's betrayal webinar that she mentioned a little ago. That's coming up on February 26th. We'll give you more details about that a little later. You can go to newlife.com or text the word WEBINAR to 28950 to find out more about it. But Sarah, just for calling in today, we're going to send you to that webinar. Actually, we're not sending you anywhere, it's there in your home. We're going to come to you online. But that's happening February 26th, so stay on the phone and we'll get your information. More of your calls coming up to New Life Live, 1-800-229-3000.

Guest (Male): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: New Life's Intimacy in Marriage Intensive is coming up real soon. Laura Mangan McDonald, why do you give up a weekend and travel halfway across the country to be involved with leading this workshop?

Laura Mangan McDonald: Well, first of all, Brian, I'm honored. I'm honored to be able to speak into other people's lives because I've been there. I know what it's like to be laid flat on your back and think, "Oh my goodness." So one, I'm honored. Two, I believe in it. It's God's ways work when we work them. And I have the opportunity to witness people who come in are on the verge of divorce and their lives turn around.

Here's the beautiful thing, the overarching umbrella is people who have been married for years and want to improve. It's precious when we see people in their married 50 years and they go, "How can we improve our marriage?" So it's for them too. But we get into what the core wounds that Mark was referring to, we get in this core pattern of relating. We know that what we're talking about is not the reason for the argument, but it feels really crazy going, "How do we keep on getting here when we try so hard?" What we give them at Intimacy in Marriage is the playbook, the playbook that works. This is attachment, this is God's truth, and then we give them experiences because if we can't practice, how can I learn? I can understand something in my head, but I need a safe, secure setting to practice that in, and that's what we give them in this three-day immersive intensive. It's amazing.

Brian Perez: Now how does this help compare to your work with couples in your private practice?

Laura Mangan McDonald: Well, again, it's that group experience is a game changer. I've been practicing for 39 years and I can tell you every opportunity we can take what we practice in the therapist's office, which is great, that's very beneficial. But now let's put this in a group setting. We up the game, so to speak. We hear one, we're not alone. Oh my goodness, don't we love, I mean it's kind of sounds snarky, but don't we love when other people go, "You too? You all are experiencing trouble too?" Because what that means is there's hope. There's hope, we're not alone.

That group experience lets us know we're not alone. It's led by a licensed professional counselor or marriage and family therapist or psychologist who understands how attachment works. And then we know we're not alone. We get input from our peers and we get to practice what we're working on in where JJ and Becky and I present from the platform. It's a powerful experience, very powerful. So I send any couple of mine that I see in my private practice, I try to get them all to go to Intimacy in Marriage. It's a game changer.

Brian Perez: It's happening Valentine's Day weekend in Orange County, California. There's still time for you to sign up. You can get more details at newlife.com or call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. One more question before the break here. This is happening Valentine's Day weekend, how appropriate. But let's talk about what true intimacy is because first of all, it's not just about physical intimacy, it's about all kinds of intimacy. It's not like a Hallmark movie or anything like that. I think people watch those shows sometimes and they just think, "Oh, that's what I want my marriage to be, that's what I want my relationship to be." Can it be like that? Mark, what would you say?

Mark Cameron: It's interesting that you bring that up because that is often what we think about when we think about intimacy. Sometimes people will sub the word intimacy for sex, and so they think, "Okay, we have a lot of sex, that means we're intimate." Or intimacy is us snuggling on the couch and watching movies together or going and having fun. Often times you'll see that in shows like The Bachelor or The Bachelorette and that's what they're doing.

But as I was speaking on in my opening here, true emotional intimacy really happens in negative emotions, in connection with that, connection with sadness, with fear, with overwhelm, being able to know that I have someone here who can walk through these difficult things with me and they're going to comfort me, even in repair. After we have a conflict, being able to seek repair and at Intimacy in Marriage, we teach this process through something called the comfort circle, learning how do we learn to listen to one another with understanding, how do we empathize and validate, and how do we explore. When we do that, that's where we actually build this deep emotional connection. It's not necessarily in the fun thrill-seeking stuff.

Laura Mangan McDonald: Right, exactly. When I know I'm accepted and loved on my worst day, that is the greatest freedom we can experience this side of heaven. A truly intimate couple is both people are welcome to the relationship. I can bring all of me, you can bring all of you, neither one of us have to decrease in order to connect. My desires, my regrets, my fears, everything in me is accepted by you. That to me, that is the greatest freedom that we can experience in a marriage. All of me is welcome, all of you is welcome. But we have to learn how to do that because that's a taught emotional intelligence. We don't just, we are wired for it but we need to be taught how to do it. Due to our attachment injuries, that's where we get in the core pattern of relating and we hide parts of ourselves for fear of being harmed.

Brian Perez: So if you and your spouse are stuck in conflict, you're stuck in like a roommate situation, if all you ever do is argue it seems, we can help you at the Intimacy in Marriage intensive. It is happening February 13th through the 15th in Orange County, California. Still time for you to sign up. Just visit our website newlife.com or call 1-800-NEW-LIFE and we'll get you all the details. Again, that's next weekend, Valentine's Day weekend here in Southern California. More of your calls coming up at 1-800-229-3000. This is New Life Live.

Guest (Male): Today's podcast is brought to you by Club New Life supporters who give a monthly donation because they want to continue to offer help and hope in these very, very difficult places. To find out more about Club New Life, you can go to our website newlife.com or call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now if you're new to us, we drop an episode every weekday. We would love it if you would rate or write a review, which helps more people discover help and hope and helps us share wisdom with as many people as possible. Now let's listen to our counselors as they help people walk through life's hardest places.

Guest (Male): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: We love hearing that New Life Live makes a difference in your life. Here's what Jim shared. "I truly, truly treasure the wisdom I gain from listening to New Life Live on Sirius XM channel 131 and YouTube. I'm not the person I was five years ago or even two years ago," says Jim. "Not only am I a better father, husband, and friend, but my relationship with Jesus has deepened." Your generosity helps assure we can continue helping people like Jim grow in their relationship with Jesus and with others. Every gift helps. You can give online at newlife.com by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE or by texting NLM to 28950. Your generosity really does change lives.

1-800-229-3000 is the number to call us today in the studio. We're going to be here for the next 90 minutes and we'd love to chat with you. We've got Mark Cameron here, also Laura Mangan McDonald. We're going to talk to Patrick in Pensacola who's listening on WEGS. Welcome to New Life Live, Patrick. Thanks for calling 1-800-229-3000.

Patrick: Thank you. Appreciate you taking my call.

Brian Perez: Of course. What's going on?

Patrick: Well, I wanted to call in and I want to let people know in the area about the New Life Recovery meeting we're going to be having at our church. But I also want to mention the benefits of being in a recovery group, a biblical recovery group. I think the best way I can state it is from my own life is that I've been an avid Bible reader for years and I've always studied the word, never had a problem. But it wasn't until I started to get into recovery and allow God to come into that room, into that wound that I was struggling with.

The thing I love about the recovery, now that I've been doing it, is that God will come in in the most gentle way and He will bring about healing. It's not instantaneous, though I'm not saying He couldn't do that, but it's a process. I have found that He wants us to allow Him to come in and bring that healing. It's made all the difference in my life. Especially this past year, I got even more serious about it with the New Life Recovery Bible. God's been working in my pastor's heart and in mine and some others and it just so happens on February 25th, we're going to be starting a New Life Recovery group. We're already registered on your website for Wednesday evening and it's going to be at Myrtle Grove Baptist Church on Lillian Highway in Pensacola, 6 o'clock. We're really excited because we're seeing God just bring everything together. So just want to share that and I hope people in the Pensacola area will be listening to this.

Mark Cameron: We love that you're excited about recovery here, Patrick. Sounds like you've been on a journey yourself. What was the turning point for you and if you're willing to share, what you're recovering from?

Patrick: Well, I grew up in an alcoholic family and I went into the Navy and I realized that all that dysfunction, it affected me in a big way as far as low self-esteem and all that. I've always been codependent and struggled with various things. There was a lot of stress in my career. I served 20 years. When I went through some stressful times, I started looking for a recovery group, some sort of support system.

When I got to Pensacola in 98, I found a couple of them. Most excellent way and celebrate recovery. And then when I learned about New Life, I liked how you guys approach everything, not just addiction, but all kinds of issues that people are struggling with. I have a mood disorder, but I'm treated by the VA so I'm really fortunate I have medical care, but not everybody has access to that. I find that very sad. God's been good. A couple of years ago, I would have been so ashamed to even talk about this. But what I can't believe now is that He is using me to reach out to other people.

Mark Cameron: That's awesome and that's what the power of group does is we get to share with other people and realize that we're not alone. Then we get to learn from the benefit of people who might be a little bit further down the journey with us. As we share, as we open up, it reduces that shame and we feel like we have a community and we have support. Like you're saying, our Life Recovery groups aren't just for if you have an alcohol addiction or if you have a pornography addiction or a drug addiction. It's for codependency, it's for anyone who's struggling and who wants to recover. I love that you're promoting that.

Laura Mangan McDonald: Yes, I love that you kept on. Galatians says, "Don't give up and grow weary. Keep on, we'll see a harvest." And you kept on. When we grow up in an alcoholic family, our attachment is ruptured and we learn negative coping skills. Those coping skills is what kept you safe. We have to respond in this maladaptive way in order to survive. We learn to read signs, people's facial expression, their jaw clenching. We learn to listen to how a door shuts, how a plate's put down on the counter. Your body encoded all of this for your survival. Do you relate to that?

Patrick: Oh yes, I sure do.

Laura Mangan McDonald: Right, so see, that was part of your survival. The biggest thing is overarching was relationships are not safe. I can only present what I think you will accept about me and then that's how I keep safe. Well, what does that do? That negates our authenticity. It negates God's, the Ephesians 2:10, how He authentically knitted us together in purpose and play. But we don't know that, we're just trying to survive. But what I love is your being courageous, not giving up. Where we heal is in community, period. We can know everything in our head, but they didn't practice this in community. So you are doing this in community and that's where we have the, "I'm going to practice a little bit at a time bringing more of myself and letting you see more of me." Much like Mark referenced to this earlier, as you see me, I'm accepted, right? And then I gain from confidence to show you more of me, and that's authenticity. It's a beautiful, beautiful thing. I'm excited for you.

Brian Perez: I remember our first caller today, Sarah. She said that one of the reasons, one of the things that kept her from sharing what was going on in her home life was the embarrassment. I think that's what keeps a lot of people from going to a therapist one-on-one, but going to a group and telling other people, strangers, what you're going through, that can be terrifying for some people.

Laura Mangan McDonald: Terrifying for most people, because it's amazing how God designed our nervous system. It is like we don't teach a baby to cry, we have a sensation and that sensation goes into an emotion, right? And so what happens is all these implicit memories are things that were downloaded in our early life when we grow up in that type of rupture. It's saying stop, don't do it, not cognitively but like we can have like really try hard but then our body says no, you are not safe. So until we get somewhere where someone can validate our experience and go, "I see you, I hear you, and I understand you," then we begin to kind of peek around the corner and go, "Oh wait a minute, you're talking about how I feel. I'm going to practice coming out a little bit more here."

Mark Cameron: What's good about recovery groups, though, is the ground is level for everyone. It's not like you're going and talking about your issue in front of your church. Everybody who's there is coming to share about something that they are struggling with. Oftentimes we can think what I'm struggling with is worse because we focus on our own shame, but everybody in that group is likely experiencing the same thing. It just takes that bit of courageousness, that courage just to go and just to open up and share. That's how we overcome the power of shame. Shame makes us want to run and hide, but confession is the antidote to shame because it brings it all out there and then shame loses its power over us.

Brian Perez: So Patrick, once again, what's the name of your church in Pensacola?

Patrick: Myrtle Grove Baptist Church.

Brian Perez: And those meetings will begin on February 25th. If Pensacola's way too far away from you because you're in Pennsylvania or something like that, you can go to our website newlife.com and you can find a Life Recovery group near you. You can also get information on how to start a Life Recovery group maybe in your church. Again, go to newlife.com or call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. 1-800-229-3000 is the number to call us today.

Guest (Male): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: You may have heard me mention that Laura Mangan McDonald's going to be quite busy in the days and weeks to come. We talked about our Intimacy in Marriage earlier, that's happening Valentine's Day weekend in Orange County, California. Laura's also presenting a webinar titled "From Pain to Peace: Healing After Betrayal" and that's for men and women on February 26th. You can text the word WEBINAR to 28950 to get more details as well as a free tip sheet. About a week after the webinar, March 6th through the 8th, Laura will be leading the Restore Healing After Betrayal workshop for women in Dallas, Texas. You can find out more about any of these at newlife.com or by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Let's go to the phones now. Here is Paula in Washington, D.C. Paula, thanks for calling 1-800-229-3000. You're on with Laura Mangan McDonald and Mark Cameron.

Paula: Hi. Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for taking my call. I'm calling about a situation where you're in a marriage, but it's not really a marriage. We're roommates and neither one of us wants to be in the marriage. When we took the situation to the church, we were told by the pastor that we cannot leave, like we can't separate because my thing was I wanted to move out, let's just separate for a couple of months because previous to that I wanted to get a divorce. But the pastor said that that's my lot in life is to be, I have to suffer and endure. I'm telling him that this is not mentally a good place for me to be. I need to change my scenery. But what do you do when the pastor is telling you that you have to stay?

Mark Cameron: Paula, you said that neither of you wants to be in the marriage. Can you tell us a little bit about your marriage and why neither of you wants to be in it?

Paula: We just don't like each other. We've been married it'll be 24 years in May. At some point we did, but we're both military retirees. At some point he just shut down. When he shut down, we went through and we understood our attachment styles is he's avoidant and I'm a vacillator. So when he shut down, it makes me want to pursue him more and that's annoying to him. So we've come to the point that it's just not working. The communication's not there. There's no physical intimacy. There hasn't been anything in months. We're in separate rooms of the house. We have an adult child at home and a 16-year-old. My thing was I was just trying to tough it out until my 16-year-old graduates next year. But I just I'm in a place where I just don't want to be in that environment anymore. It's not healthy for me. I literally can't say anything to him and he doesn't want to say anything to me. It's like he comes home and not only does he avoid me, but he avoids our daughters. I don't like that. Feel how you feel about me, but still engage with them. They don't deserve that.

Mark Cameron: Why does he avoid them? Have you guys made the kids pick a side?

Paula: No, we don't encourage the kids to pick a side. He just doesn't interact with anybody. He just wants to shut down. He doesn't hug them, he doesn't do any of that. It's like he doesn't have any emotion.

Mark Cameron: Does he admit that he's an avoider?

Paula: Yes.

Mark Cameron: And he understands how his avoidant attachment style was formed?

Paula: I don't know if he understands totally how it was formed. He doesn't want to acknowledge any of that. He says that that's a blessing for him to be even keel like that. I'm like, "Dude, God gave you emotions." He thinks being overly emotional is too much for him and so he told me this past weekend that I'm just too much.

Mark Cameron: So he doesn't actually admit that he's an avoider. He admits that he can be avoidant, but he doesn't see that as a problem, which is very common with people who have an avoidant attachment style because it continues to serve a purpose. As you said, you guys are both ex-military and there's probably a lot of trauma in there and being avoidant keeps that trauma at bay. Really, it's a self-protective strategy. It's very sad though because whenever we have an insecure attachment style, even if we get out of the relationship that we're in, whatever relationship we get into from there, we can expect to have the problems that that particular attachment style has.

So even if either of you get out of this relationship, he's going to be avoidant in the next one and you will be a vacillator and you'll pursue in the next one unless you both choose to do some recovery efforts. Now, as we were talking about, we've got Intimacy in Marriage coming up next, not this weekend, next weekend, the weekend of Valentine's Day. Would he be willing to come, even if you present it as a last ditch effort to come and engage in this process?

Paula: Well, as embarrassing as it is, we attended the Intimacy in Marriage conference in Washington, D.C. last year. I think it was towards the end of the year last year. We went, it was amazing, and we were off to a good start, but now we're back to square one again.

Mark Cameron: Do you have a therapist, a couples therapist?

Paula: We do not.

Mark Cameron: And that's probably what you need then and that's why now I'm understanding how you can recognize the avoidant/vacillator dynamic. You probably need somebody to help walk you through that process. I'm going to let Laura jump in here because we don't have a lot of time.

Laura Mangan McDonald: Paula, I just want to know I hear you and I hope we talked maybe at the last Intimacy in Marriage. If you remember, I am a vacillator in recovery. However, I say that I am a certified avoidant specialist because I'm married to one. If anybody understands the pain of when you're looking at someone and it feels so exposed to go, "I need you to see, hear, and understand me," and they look at you like a deer in the headlights, it's hard not to take personal what feels so personal, right? I know you know what I'm talking about.

That's the crazy-making switch every time because you're going, "You hear me, I know you hear me, but you won't respond to me." That inside of us can feel like a young little girl going, "Why am I not good enough for you? Why aren't you seeing me?" So here's the thing. I'm so glad to hear that you related to the Intimacy in Marriage. But like Mark was saying, we only retain new information for 30 days and then if we don't put that into use, it's out. So it's crucial, here's the good news, you can have that, we can put the jumping cables on again and get a connection, right? But then you will need to do the recovery work. I'm a vacillator in recovery, my husband's an avoidant in recovery and so on.

But there's your promise. But right now, what's been replaced instead of doing the new experiences, you're having what's called justifiable resentment. I get you, I hear you. It's frustrating. There's nothing worse than being in where you're supposed to be the safest and you feel the worst and most ignored right there under your own, you're under the same roof. That's horrible. But you going somewhere else in another relationship is not going to change it. I call it different face, same place. Because we go where we go. So this is an opportunity. Finisher strong, and you know that in the military, right? And I'm wondering if things really didn't fall apart when you got out of the military. Paula, thanks so much for calling in today to New Life Live. Stay on hold and we'll put you in touch with a couples counselor because we think this is what you will need to go forward in your marriage. We think there is still hope for you and everyone else listening.

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