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Announcer: Welcome to the New Life Live podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's Word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: Welcome to New Life Live. You're hearing today's broadcast because faithful supporters of the ministry believe in the importance of free professional biblical counsel. Giving that counsel today are Dr. Jim Burns, founder of Homeward, and Sherry Denham Keffer, Doctor of Marriage and Family Therapy. If you've tried everything and nothing seems to have helped, try us. 1-800-229-3000 is our number and we'll be in the studio for two hours today. Sherry, what's on your mind to start us off?

Sherry Denham Keffer: Well, I was just thinking about what you just said, that it is like free biblical therapy. I thought about how many people we know that listen and learn. Truly, this is the place to get good counsel.

As a note of good counsel, I wanted to talk about this morning about the impact of pornography. I reached out to about 12,000 females who are betrayed partners to ask them about the impact of pornography and the impact of pornography within their church, specifically what was helpful and what was hurtful. I've also done a research project looking at pornography. There is a book called What the Church Gets Wrong About Porn and How to Fix It. Covenant Eyes put it out.

There are several quadrants of impact that happen with porn. There is an erosion of identity. Whoever you were the day before you found out that the one you loved, your significant other, was looking at pornography, you might have been feeling generally okay with yourself. You might have been feeling good about yourself. But that interjection of pornography causes you to question your identity.

Shame beliefs such as, "I'm not good enough," "I'm not in control," "I can't trust anyone," "I'm not enough," "I'm not sexy enough," or "I'm not beautiful." It lacerates that identity. That is because of the post-traumatic stress that is attached to pornography use and the impact on betrayed partners.

I reached out to so many women asking them how it works for them in their churches. I think there are a ton of well-meaning pastors. But what happens without this knowledge is we don't know what we don't know. I had a number of them reach out to me to say, "I went to my pastor with my husband, and while we were in his office, the pastor was telling me, 'I understand that this is bothering you. It is more common than you think. But I think if you were to pray about it, if you were to be more sexually involved with your husband, if you were to hold his hand, or if you were to spend more time with him, I really think you can help him turn this around.'"

Here is the one who is violated. She is a victim of pornography use. She is traumatized and the pastor is telling her to hold his hand. It is crazy-making. Body, soul, mind, and spirit, there are so many impacts to this. I've named two out of the seven. If you're interested, you could read more in What the Church Gets Wrong About Porn and How to Fix It. I wrote the chapter in there about the impact of partners. Jim, I know you get this, and Brian, you get this. It is painful.

Jim Burns: When we see it with kids, it could be the issue that is going to take this generation down if we're not careful. We have got to get our arms around it. The church has to do exactly the opposite of what you just said the church is doing. It is pitifully poor. Our pastors need to be trained on it.

Sherry Denham Keffer: I would love them to be trained. When I'm at the American Association of Christian Counselors talking, I'm telling them to come hither and get trained.

Brian Perez: Amen. We will come back to your calls in a moment. To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-New-Life. Now back to New Life Live.

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This is New Life Live. I'm Brian Perez, here with Doctors Jim Burns and Sherry Denham Keffer. 1-800-229-3000 is the number to call. We started the show today with Sherry talking about the impact of pornography on women. If you are a woman affected by this, you can call into the show today. If you're a man struggling with this, we can help you as well. We have got lots of resources in the newlife.com store. We have got some intensives and a webinar about betrayal coming up next week. Call in or check out our website, newlife.com.

Let's go to the phones beginning with Christopher in Los Angeles who listens to us on KKLA. Hello, Christopher, welcome.

Christopher: Good morning, guys. How are you guys doing today?

Brian Perez: Doing well, thanks.

Christopher: I just wanted to call. Remember me, Brian? I called you guys last week regarding a therapist.

Brian Perez: Yes.

Christopher: Guess what happened last night to me? He called me and scheduled an appointment.

Sherry Denham Keffer: That's awesome. We're excited for you and cheering you on in your work.

Christopher: Thank you. It took a lot of guts and effort to go through with this. Without you guys' help, I wouldn't have done it.

Jim Burns: Christopher, it takes a lot of guts. You're right. There are a lot of people out there who say they need to go get some help, but they are not willing to pick up that phone and make that call.

Christopher: Hi, Jim.

Jim Burns: Hey. I just think you've made a great decision. You're not halfway there yet, but you're there because you made the call. There are hundreds of people who are listening, maybe thousands, who need to make a call for counsel on different levels, but they aren't willing to do it.

Part of it is because we feel shame or we don't even want to tell our friends we're getting counseling, yet the people I know who are getting counseling are some of the healthiest people I know. There are so many reasons to not do it. One reason you had, Christopher, was that you had an experience and it wasn't good. I went to a doctor and got a checkup a couple of years ago and thought he didn't get it right. I'm not an MD, but I went to another doctor and he got it right. Sometimes we have to do that. For you to make that decision, way to go. I think it is going to be good.

Christopher: Also, I would like to mention that he said the first 50 minutes was free. He wanted to do 100 minutes in total because he wants to get to know me and get deep inside my head. He said because I am new, the first 50 minutes is free, but the second 50 minutes will be 240 or something like that.

Sherry Denham Keffer: It will probably be the best investment you've ever made. I have to say something, Christopher. It is amazing to me that you mentioned there was some abuse with your dad and your mom. Brian is having a chance to lovingly reparent you. When Jim started to talk, you recognized his voice.

That is not a little thing, Christopher. You know his voice. You've listened to him. You've grown to trust him and enjoy him. Jim is here, and he is working to kindly love and reparent you. It sounds like you've got a male therapist and I'm kind of giddy about that because I think that you're really looking for some men that have big hearts that you can respect and that they can love you back. Those are those reparative moments. I just wanted you to know how big that is.

Brian Perez: Christopher, thanks for calling into New Life Live. We will be praying for you. If you want to hear more about Christopher, he called in last Wednesday. Go back and find that on the archives. It was one of the first calls that we took, so you can listen to his story and the advice that we gave him. Thanks for calling in and following up.

1-800-229-3000 is our number and now we're going to talk to Jason who is listening to us on newlife.com in Anaheim, California. Can you see Disneyland from where you are, Jason?

Jason: Almost. We can hear it at night when the fireworks are going off. That is a good way to tell what time it is if I'm not looking at the clock. I know it's time for the kids to go to bed if I hear the fireworks.

Brian Perez: That is very true. How can we help you today?

Jason: I have an issue with one of my five children. Two of them are with one lady who I'm not together with anymore. The three younger ones are with a lady who I am still together with. Out of the first two, one of them recently decided to go to art school in Chicago. That was mistake number one.

She decided to start taking testosterone because I guess that is the cool thing to do now. She just told me via a group text with me and the rest of my family. There was no conversation or opportunity to ask her what she's thinking or why. I am trying to figure out how to deal with this because she has three younger siblings. I don't know how to even approach it because she is my daughter and I do love her, but I am not on board with this.

Jim Burns: That is a shocking experience, especially that she did it in what she felt was a safer environment by text with a whole bunch of people. But you are dad. Sometimes people will say to me that since I wrote a book called Doing Life with Your Adult Children, I should say to keep your mouth shut and the welcome mat out.

When someone is doing something like your daughter here, if you possibly can financially, I would get on a plane and I would go to Chicago. I would sit with her and I would look her in her eye and I would say, "I love you so much and I am your dad and I will always love you. However, I have some deep concerns." Without preaching at her, I would lead with love and practice kindness. I would ask her if she has thought about the ramifications.

Before you do any of that, just say you love her and care for her and ask what is going on. Be the listening dad. I would hear her story. I wouldn't try to preach at her. I would simply tell her from your view why you are worried for you. There is an amazing amount of material that you can get on what happens when a woman is taking testosterone and making some of those changes. They are making changes in their body and they are not aware of what the ramifications are long term. How old is your daughter?

Jason: She is 19.

Jim Burns: She is 19. That is the exact age where a lot of times they'll start making those kinds of decisions. That is a life-changing decision at 19. Some of the decisions I would have made at 19 would have been really dumb. She may be making a decision that she's going to regret years from now.

If she tells you she is going to continue doing it, your next move should be to say that you love her. She is doing something that you disapprove of and what she's going to want to know is if you still love her. I would still lead with love. She can always change her mind. You're going to put her in disequilibrium because you're listening. Listening is the language of love. Then you're going to present your concerns. Be prepared. Don't just do this on your emotion or it will get out of hand. Try not to get in an argument. You can still love someone and not agree with the decision that they're making, even when it is this precious daughter of yours. Does that make sense?

Jason: Yeah.

Jim Burns: It is hard because what we want to do is tell them how wrong they are and how right we are, but that doesn't tend to work with 19-year-olds. It doesn't tend to work with most people, really.

Brian Perez: Would it help for Jason to show his daughter videos? There is one gal named Chloe Cole who went through the whole process and then just regretted it.

Jim Burns: I think what we do on something like that is we don't start with that. I would suggest that Jason watch her on YouTube first.

Jason: I've seen that.

Jim Burns: Since you've seen that, I would get that kind of information. I would also get some of the medical information. There are many interesting things happening right now. I got my PhD in Great Britain, so I have a lot of British input. Britain went strong on this and now Britain has almost totally backed off. Even the secular world has deep concern. You're not just doing it from a Christian point of view. I would make sure that she got some of the latest scientific information. If she was open to it, you could provide biblical information too, but don't preach.

Jason: That would be a non-starter. I am actually part of the secular world, but I still have common sense, fortunately.

Jim Burns: I understand that. One of the things that I find is that parents preach to their kids too harshly sometimes. You seem to be the kind of person that has the spirit within you to listen and care and show your concern. I can list 35 things that are super dangerous with her jumping into this at age 19. My daughter got a tattoo at age 19 and she told me the other day she really regrets doing that. She just didn't like what she said on the tattoo. That is a minor thing. We're talking about changing the body inside.

Jason: Biologically, what are the top three concerns just so I have some points to look into?

Jim Burns: That is a great question. Number one, my concern is that we all have an identity and she's changing the identity that was her God-given identity. When you become a new gender, there is much more involved in it than just rebelling against the culture. Secondly, I am concerned about the medical repercussions of this. On third, I'm going to give it to you after the break.

Sherry Denham Keffer: You guys do that all the time. Jim is good at cliffhangers. I have a cliffhanger on your cliffhanger. Jason, you are in my inbox right now. I personally know how painful this is, so we'll care for your heart when we come back.

Brian Perez: Jason, hang on. Everyone else that is on the phone right now, stay on hold. We'll get to you in just a little bit. We're going to be here in the studio for the rest of this hour and all of next. Grab an open line at 1-800-229-3000 to speak with Dr. Sherry Denham Keffer and Dr. Jim Burns.

Cliffhangers galore today on New Life Live. Jim, let's hear your cliffhanger and then we'll get to Sherry as we continue talking to Jason.

Jim Burns: Jason, you did exactly what you're supposed to do. You asked three questions. I am not the expert, but here is the third for me. What we're beginning to see in research is that testosterone changes people also mentally. We're beginning to see that people put drugs in their system that they shouldn't be putting in and it is causing them a deep angst, anxiety, and depression.

We're seeing more suicides and things like that. I am not trying to say that is your daughter, but that is happening on a scientific basis. We have to be careful about that. You don't want to freak your daughter out by leading with that, but it is true. You want to get some of that research just to see how it changes the brain structure. Sherry?

Sherry Denham Keffer: Speaking of gender, I think there is a ton of gender confusion out there. There are many more choices than when I was growing up. Like a Coke machine, kids come into the world and they start going to school, being a part of social media, and talking to friends. There are choices that they're making about their gender.

Some of them are transitional, and some end up becoming more permanent. I hear your heart. The thing I want to care for you with right now is to acknowledge that what is staring you right in the face is grief. It is the sadness, the emotions, the hurt, and the fear around what your daughter is choosing to do.

My brother committed suicide five years ago. My niece told me last Christmas, the year before this one, that she was going to be starting to take testosterone. She shared it with me at a big family gathering for Christmas. It was a little bit of a drive-by. She shared it and didn't really want to talk about it, but she just wanted me to know.

This Christmas I went home and my niece now has a beard growing. I can't even tell you the heartache as I'm watching this precious young lady. I remember her growing up. She told me probably a decade ago that she was gay.

I would want your heart to go in as open as humanly possible to begin to explore the why behind her taking testosterone. Jim is 100% right. If you lead with trying to fix her, it is going to shut her down. You won't really hear about what else is in there or what is going on. She's going to know if you're judging her, and there is a whole world out there that will embrace her.

I want you to have the first seat to be able to hold on to her. That is where I'm at with my niece. I told her I'm never going to not love her. Transitioning is a much more common thing. As parents and family members, we are tempted to pull away. My niece has a beard and she's around my younger grandnieces, so you can feel very protective. I want to appeal to us because the Jesus I know went among the people and stayed connected to people when they were in transitions. I am sorry it is hurting. I hope that you will continue to move forward and love your daughter as you explore what's going on.

Brian Perez: Jason, thanks for calling into New Life Live. To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-New-Life. Now back to New Life Live.

Mark your calendar for February 28th. That is next Saturday. That is when our Every Man's Battle workshop is being offered in a rare one-day online Zoom format. It is a 12-hour day that includes six teaching sessions and five small group process sessions facilitated by a credentialed New Life Network counselor. You'll be able to break out into small groups on Zoom for a personal time of sharing. You can get all the details at newlife.com. Register today.

1-800-229-3000 is the number to call us today in the studio. We're going to be here for the rest of this hour and all of next with Doctors Sherry Denham Keffer and Jim Burns. Let's talk to Alvin in Virginia who listens to our podcast on Spotify.

Alvin: Thank you.

Brian Perez: What is going on?

Alvin: I hear a lot of terms you guys use like counselors, therapists, and coaches. I'm currently seeing a counselor, but I don't know what those other terms are like clinical therapist and stuff like that. Sometimes I feel like I need to see the whole gamut.

Brian Perez: Is there a super therapist who does all the clinical psychology and the licensed marriage and family therapy?

Sherry Denham Keffer: We will definitely answer your question. But what is it in you that feels like you need to see the gamut? Where do you feel stuck? Tell me where you're stuck.

Alvin: One thing I'm stuck on is I'm looking for that magic bullet to fix my marriage. I've spent a lot of money on different things. Maybe I'm not finding the right person to tell me what is going on inside of me that makes me look for that.

Sherry Denham Keffer: That makes sense. It is so hard when you're in a marriage and you experience that one of the two of you is a harder change. Can you just let us in on where you're stuck in your marriage? What's happening?

Alvin: Right now we're stuck because I'm listening to you guys a lot and seeing where I am. I am mad because I feel like my wife is stuck in anger toward me. I know you guys have the thing coming up in March.

Sherry Denham Keffer: Restore is for betrayed partners. So there has been some kind of betrayal in your relationship.

Alvin: It is all on my part. I was trying to get my wife to go so she could understand what she's feeling and kind of help her, but she doesn't want to go. I listen to the Every Man Battle podcast. There was two different podcasts, one on how to get through when the betrayed person is stuck and another on how to go through when the betrayer is stuck.

I am trying to learn how not to expect things but to be more patient. A lady called last week and she was saying that she was a vacillator and a controller. I'm trying not to be that. I've gone back and forth with wanting the marriage and wanting to let it go. I'm all over the place.

Sherry Denham Keffer: I'm a betrayed partner and so I get your wife. I often say that as betrayed partners, we are like doves in the cleft of a rock. We've been wounded. That comes from the pornography or whatever the sexual acting out is. Because of that shame, we sequester ourselves and we don't want to come out. We don't want to talk to anybody because we're feeling bad about ourselves. We're feeling confused about the relationship.

There is all this eroding of whoever we were prior to the impact, so it is a complicated post-traumatic stress. I wrote a book called Intimate Deception: Healing the Wounds of Sexual Betrayal. I would love for you to get a copy of that. One thing I really love about you, Alvin, is that you're a learner. I get why you're feeling like this is way too much work. But I want you to know your wife is in an emotional wheelchair right now.

She's been hit by a Mack truck and she's in an emotional wheelchair. She might look the same, but she's not. This doesn't mean it is a mortal wounding, but betrayed partners have to get on our own gurney in a hospital and get healing. Because of the shame we feel, we tell our partner to go get the help.

Dive into Every Man's Battle and get my book. I want you to become intimately acquainted with the impact because you'll have more compassion for how you can help her heal. In the couples work that I do, when the partner who betrayed can actually help the one that they betrayed heal, it is a whole different level of change.

What's happening is normal. I want you to do your work. Get to Every Man's Battle and read my book. Hang on to your marriage right now because she is trying to hang on to you and the marriage even though she's shut down. Jim, thoughts?

Jim Burns: That is great insight. You called asking about counselors, coaches, and therapists. In some ways, you just got coached and counseled by a therapist. You want the whole gamut. Definitions are just definitions. If you ask a therapist who is going to do long-term therapy, they're going to have a different style than a coach. But it is more about style. Some of my best counselors are books. I picked up Sherry's book, and that book was great. She counseled me before I knew her.

Put all this energy you have into that. But there is no such thing as a magic bullet. Before freedom comes pain. The only way you can get to freedom and a better marriage is to have to work through that pain. That is why I suggest that you get a therapist. If the therapist you have right now isn't working, find someone who can help you work through that.

Sherry Denham Keffer: I am a certified sex addiction therapist and a certified partner trauma therapist. I would suggest you look for a CSAT. We have some on our New Life team. That is the type of therapist that I would definitely have you go to. That is the specialist who I think will help you most effectively.

Jim Burns: That's right. It is like going to the specialist because you have a specific injury.

Brian Perez: Alvin, thanks for calling in. We'll be back on New Life Live. To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-New-Life. Now back to New Life Live.

We mentioned so many resources during our call with Alvin. We mentioned Dr. Sherry Denham Keffer's book called Intimate Deception. It is available in the newlife.com store. We also talked about the Every Man's Battle podcast. We have also got the Every Man's Battle one-day workshop next Saturday, February 28th.

A couple of days before that, February 26th, we are having a one-day webinar for anybody who has been betrayed. Alvin, you said that your wife may not want to go to the three-day weekend that's happening in March, so maybe she'll sit down for this 90-minute webinar. You can get details about that at newlife.com or text the word "webinar" to 28950. The week after that, March 6th through the 8th, is the intensive for women. It is happening in Dallas. You can call 1-800-New-Life.

Let's go back to the phones now. Here is Judy in Fort Lauderdale. You can call 1-800-229-3000 too. Judy, welcome to New Life Live. Hello.

Judy: Hello. I have been married for 30 years to a wonderful man who has Asperger's. He gets obsessed with things. For the last three or four years, he's been very obsessed with end-time events and has set a date for when he believes the Rapture is happening. The problem is I don't want to hear about that anymore.

We have a good couple of days together and then he's back into the obsession. He hands out cards to everyone he meets. Plus, he's a handyman and he's got high energy, so I can go days without having any time with him whatsoever because he's just so driven. My heart has been hurt badly over and over again. A few weeks ago, I told him that I was just not going to get involved with him emotionally anymore. I feel like I'm hardening my heart to him. I am acting like a loving wife, but I am not emotionally connected to him at this point.

Jim Burns: You said you've been married 30 years, so you've been with Asperger's for 30 years. Has it gotten more obsessive? This is an obsession. If you have Asperger's, he's probably had many obsessions. Does he get past them sometimes? Has he gotten help from anybody?

Judy: He hasn't gotten help. We've gone through a number of obsessions. He just said to me he has never been happier. We were reading about love languages, and he said he has never been happier than he is now because September is when he's believing the Rapture's going to happen. He says every day September gets closer. His happiness is in his belief in the Rapture happening. He hands out these cards constantly wherever we go.

Jim Burns: He must be a good handyman because some people wouldn't want to hire him back, but he must be good. He needs to have someone who totally understands Asperger's in a professional capacity who can help him figure out how to calm this down a little bit. I strongly urge that you go get help from a therapist and then maybe he will come along. This isn't helping your marriage. He's going to have to think about what happens after if the Rapture does not come back in September. My suggestion would be that you get the help first and figure out with that therapist how to invite him into this conversation.

Sherry Denham Keffer: Judy, I'm aware of how much shame and embarrassment you must feel to have your husband out there handing out cards and talking about this obsession. The National Alliance on Mental Illness is called NAMI. They have a tremendous amount of free resources and support groups for wives like yourself.

You have been an amazing wife. Hard isn't even the right word. It is distressing. Unless you have someone in your life with Asperger's who's doing this, you don't really get it. But the significant other bears a heavy burden. We are here for you. Stay on the line and see if we can't get you connected with one of our counselors.

Brian Perez: Many people call us when they're overwhelmed with things like addiction, broken marriages, depression, or confusion. Our monthly 99 for the 1 partners make it possible for us to respond to these callers immediately. 99 for the 1 partners help New Life offer counseling, recovery, and hope every single day. I want to invite you to become a partner to be part of something lasting. Get the details at newlife.com or call us at 1-800-New-Life.

We're going to stay in the studio for another hour, so keep calling to talk to Doctors Jim Burns and Sherry Denham Keffer. Anisha and everyone else on hold, stay on hold. We'll be right back on New Life Live.

Announcer: Thanks so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember we have resources and workshops online for you at newlife.com. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing and we're so glad that you're here.