New Life LIVE

New Life: Welcome to the New Life Live podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's Word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: Welcome to this Good Friday edition of New Life Live. I'm your host, Brian Perez. The very first Good Friday didn't seem very good at all. Perhaps you're not having a good day. Everything seems to be going against you. People in your inner circle have betrayed you. How do you move on? Here to help today are licensed marriage and family therapist Chris Williams and clinical psychologist Dr. Jill Hubbard. Jill has something she'd like to share to start us off.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: It's Good Friday. How can you talk about anything else? I have to recall from the mouth of babes when my son was young and someone asked him about Good Friday. Very seriously, he said, "It isn't very good for Jesus today." That's so true. It was not a good day for Jesus, but that's the good news for us.

When we look at Good Friday, what's good about Good Friday? Jesus was rejected by the people he came to save. One minute they're shouting Hosanna, and the next minute they're hanging him on a cross to die. Do any of us ever feel rejected? Heck yes, we all do.

Whether it's the shunning of a friend that you thought was your bestie, or you're not invited to an event and you see all your friends on social media having attended, or a parent that abuses you or abandons you, a spouse who knows you best yet still wants a divorce, or a child you lovingly raised turns away from your values or, worse yet, keeps you from seeing your grandkids because your ideas are different than theirs—in all these ways, we can identify with that rejection that Christ felt. And yet it's not even close to what he was carrying, the weight of the world on his shoulders.

But here's our reality: our sin is worse than we realize. I know we like to sugarcoat it, but it is worse than we realize. But God's mercy and grace is greater than we can ever imagine. From our little white lies to much bigger offenses, we are all vulnerable and we all need him. Good news is Christ cares about the details. He's in all of the details. Sometimes we think, "Does he really care about my life?" Yes, he does.

Here are some of the details on Good Friday. Christ was crucified and hung on the cross at 9:00 AM and he let out his last cry at 3:00 PM. This is the same time of day that the Jewish priests for 1,500 years sacrificed lambs for the people at 9:00 AM and 3:00 PM in the temple every single day.

Then yearly, the people on Yom Kippur would take that pilgrimage to Jerusalem with their kids and their family and the perfect lamb they have kept and they would sacrifice that lamb for their individual families every year. They did these things, and then when the ultimate lamb was sacrificed, it was at 9:00 and 3:00, just as they had done all of these years. And yet so many people didn't recognize it.

So the good news for us is because God gets mired in the details, God is in the details. I don't know about you, but I want a God that's up close and personal, not one that's distant and far away. That's the God I want to serve. So thank you, Jesus. Thank you for what you did.

Chris Williams: Absolutely. It's so true that we don't sin in general; we sin in detail. We need a Savior who saves us in our details as well as saves us in our eternity. What a powerful reminder that Good Friday is.

Brian Perez: Good opening remarks from Dr. Jill Hubbard today on New Life Live. We've got some phone calls coming up on this Good Friday edition of the show. Thanks so much for watching and for listening, and we'll get to the calls when we come back here on New Life Live. Thanks for joining us.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live. We're going to begin our time on the phones with a new listener. Here's Paul in Allentown, Pennsylvania. Hi Paul, my name is Brian. This is Jill. That's Chris. How are you? How'd you find out about us?

Paul: I just happened to listen on the radio and I just discovered you today and I thought I should call. I do have a problem. It's with the lady I've been seeing for 14 months. I love her and we're both Christians. Her son has bad health and she wants to commit, but she had a horrible marriage and she's afraid of commitment. She said she can't be with me or set a date to be married or anything. She has a granddaughter that lives with her. I don't know what I should do. We have venues planned to go to that we got tickets for. I don't know if I should continue to do that because we did make a commitment to each other, but I just feel that this is just breaking my heart. I was married for 46 years. I love being married and I just don't know what to do.

Brian Perez: How did your first marriage end, Paul, if you don't mind?

Paul: My wife passed away. She betrayed me, but I stayed with her because God says don't get a divorce, but I don't want to get into that. I've had a lot of damage in my life.

Chris Williams: Paul, it sounds like you also are with someone who is carrying a lot of relational hurt and a lot of historical pain. This is not going to be good news on Good Friday, but I tell couples this, especially in the pre-marital phase: whatever you experience right now, 5X it when you get married.

Marriage doesn't solve a problem; marriage exposes the problems that are already there eventually. As heartbreaking as it is, it sounds like you guys are connected, you're Christian, there's so much that you have in common, and you love her deeply.

Paul: We really get along so well. Everybody comments that we should be married. We get along—everybody says, "Are you two married?" I said no, and they said you should be because everybody sees it. They tell her she's glowing and all kinds of her friends say, "Are you crazy?"

Jill Hubbard: But Paul, is she definitely wanting to call it quits or she's just not committing?

Paul: She wants to keep it at arm's length. She won't commit, but she wants to see each other still. I haven't talked to her in about eight days. I'm not going to be the one to call her. We're supposed to go to dinner with friends tonight and I wrote things down so I'm not going to invite her tonight.

Jill Hubbard: But 14 months—I know when you're older it's like we don't have time to waste, but that's still kind of early in the dating in a sense. Usually, a year and a half to two and a half years is optimal for getting engaged. I'm wondering if she needs more time.

Paul: Well, that's what she asked for. So I'll just go along with it. We just feel like I'm 15 again and so does she. It's incredible how I feel. It's like my first love ever.

Jill Hubbard: Exactly, Paul. But after about two years, I hate to tell you, some of those feelings will dissipate. Sure, some of that is the oxytocin that gets stirred up and the newness and all of that. So you do need to go through some difficult times together to see if you can survive past that because a lot of people hit difficult times and then they end things. So here's part of your difficult time: she has this baggage and so she's very leery about committing again. So she needs time and consistency to see that you are really trustworthy.

Paul: I understand that, sure.

Jill Hubbard: Your eagerness is understandable, but she's going to be watching you in this. So you have to kind of pair back some of that eagerness, I think, because it can look like pressure.

Chris Williams: I think in the meantime it's a good opportunity for you both to be able to focus and understand where your relational fears and hurts lie. Because that's the 5X process. The 5X principle is that any fear or hurt that I'm carrying from my past, once I get into greater levels of intimacy, i.e. marriage, those just heighten. I call them landmines inside of us. Closeness causes people to walk through that landmine and explode. That's what creates so much conflict and hurt in relationships. That's why the healing process and the growth process is so critically important. If this is what she needs, if you respect her needs but also are staying honest with yourself and what you need through the process, it will become clear on whether this thing is going to work or not.

Jill Hubbard: Right, and not retaliating against her because it feels a bit rejecting.

Paul: I understand that. Also my minister, I changed churches because I asked him about our relationship because we would hug and we'd kiss once in a while. And he said even Jesus can't help you. I'm newly saved a couple years ago, so I'm going to a different church.

Jill Hubbard: Why can't Jesus even help you? I don't understand.

Paul: Exactly. And he's supposed to be a man of the cloth.

Brian Perez: Why did he say that, though? What did you tell him that made him say that?

Paul: I told him that we wanted to travel and stay overnight, but we're going to get separate rooms. Right away he thinks the worst and he condemned us. And then he embarrassed her in front of our prayer group. We go to church three nights a week, but now I'm not going with her anymore because she wants to have some space. I thought, okay. Well, he said that in front of other people. He says to her, "Are you behaving yourself?" I said, "You should call him on that because he's acting like we're doing stuff we're not doing." I'm very faithful in my faith. So I'm very upset with him and I know he's a man of God, but you don't say things like that to people. You just don't.

Brian Perez: Well, unless it's warranted, but it doesn't sound warranted.

Paul: I don't think it is. I think he thinks it is, but it's not. He's already condemning me just for saying we wanted to go places and it was late we'd stay overnight and we'd stay in separate rooms. We couldn't even be under the same roof.

Chris Williams: Paul, is there a man in your life where you look at the way he does marriage or relationships in a godly way that you deeply admire?

Paul: Just my friend Pete. We've been friends for over 40 years.

Chris Williams: Okay. So what I would do is I would make Pete your guide in this process. Lean on his wisdom.

Paul: I have. He told me to walk away from her and not bother at all. And I don't want to do that.

Chris Williams: Here's what I would do because I can hear there's a lot of anger underneath all of this. You're carrying a lot. And so I would also, Paul, just really highly encourage you because there's a lot of unmet needs inside of you that is driving a lot of frustration, maybe some hurt. Get into some individual counseling on and I would recommend a male, but I would really just work with someone who can help you become a little bit more relationally healthy by recovering from some of these old wounds that you're carrying and frustrations.

Brian Perez: Thanks so much for calling in today, Paul, from Allentown, Pennsylvania. Good hearing from you there. Hope to hear from you again soon. Our website, by the way, is newlife.com. Since you're new to our show, you can go there, find out all about us, catch up on past episodes, see what courses and webinars are coming up. Thanks so much for calling in. Now let's talk to Jane, who is not far from Allentown. Well, I don't think it's that far. I don't know. They're both in Pennsylvania. Jane listens to us on newlife.com. Welcome to the show.

Jane: Hello. Thank you. We've had a break with our son and daughter-in-law and his rather large family. They live on the opposite coast pretty far away. So they would come and visit for weeks at a time usually a couple times a year. We have several things that are theirs, and I don't feel at peace. I want to get them back to them. They have broken off all communication with us. Five or six years ago, they broke off completely with her parents also. I'm concerned for one thing about the grandkids and having these broken, safe, trusting relationships.

I wondered if through an agent, maybe a lawyer, if I could have someone else get in touch with them and say, "Here's a list of things we have and we can arrange for you to have them," so the kids will at least maybe it's a way to reach out to them. I sent them a box which ended in a parcel because we had an Amazon list with them for like 20 years and they took that totally away so we can't really send them gifts or have really any communication with them.

Brian Perez: So Jane, five years earlier you're saying they broke off with your daughter-in-law's family. And do you know why they did that?

Jane: Honestly, I'm not a professional, but my daughter-in-law has a lot of narcissistic checklist items. And possibly they weren't useful anymore. Possibly they didn't like being criticized like at all, like you eat too much sugar or anything. They just jettisoned them and same with us.

Jill Hubbard: You probably thought it wouldn't happen to you, that it was just them. Or maybe you did.

Jane: We also have two daughters and we all live on the East Coast. And even our one grandson has said we're like the only family they had out here really. This happened as we were on our way out there hopefully to help them out. That was my goal. And my daughter-in-law exploded on us, more my husband, I guess. And as it's happened before, I just waited a few days and sent an email and ended up a conversation with her and said, "Thank you for reaching out." And it's absolutely true that as we were leaving, I was thinking, "I never talked to her about this." It was the first hour of a 40-hour trip is when we heard from them. I don't speak well.

Jill Hubbard: That's okay. So it sounds like they're hypersensitive and anything that they don't like, they go all or nothing. And daughter-in-law is very explosive. And your son, does he just follow his wife to survive?

Jane: I think he had to. We knew because he had doubts before they were married. And he's somebody I knew once he got married, he was going to be married. Like I said, along with their things, I have like notebooks that he wrote scriptures in. We're all Christians.

Jill Hubbard: So Jane, let me address that because the focus now is on these things that you have. And they're not asking for these things, but you have them. So I'm not sure if you're wanting to get rid of the things to give them a message or are you wanting to use the things to somehow make contact, as if maybe that might open a door?

Jane: We have games like video games that they cultivated and collected and stuff. There's a box of those that can be valuable. And I didn't know if them because I know there's a lot of anger that gets fomented out there.

Brian Perez: Jane, I think the question is, are you trying to like you guys are moving and so you're trying to get rid of things in your house or are you using it to contact them?

Jane: We're not sure, but we are packing.

Jill Hubbard: Oh, you're moving. Okay, because I was wondering why are you focused on their things? If they're not asking for them, just hold on to their things. We'll find out when we come back because it is break time here on New Life Live. We're speaking with Jane in Philadelphia. There are so many ways to listen to New Life Live nowadays. You can even watch us on Facebook and YouTube. Check it out, newlife.com. Bookmark our page and check back often. We'll be right back with Jane and we've also got Ann and Cheryl coming up, so stick around.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live. Licensed marriage and family therapist Chris Williams, what would you say to Jane?

Chris Williams: Well Jane, there is so much pain and heart and quite honestly, there's a lot of chaos in this situation. We're trying to get a handle on what's going on. But here's what I know: it sounds to me like your daughter-in-law is not a relationally safe person. Part of her reactivity and her dealing with difficult situations—and mostly the difficulty within herself—is to cut off other people. And that's really painful. What pains me is that your son seems to have gone along with all of that and maybe doesn't have the backbone or doesn't want to deal with the consequences of it.

Jill Hubbard: Well, he's living and sleeping with his wife, right? So it's survival when you have a hypersensitive wife.

Chris Williams: So Jane, unfortunately, we can't do anything about son or daughter-in-law as painful as that is. But inside of you is also a lot of anxiety and chaos. And we're hearing like you're making these decisions of like sending them stuff that they've never asked for. That's what I don't want you to do because that's going to backfire on you. That's going to feed into whatever negative narrative they have about you.

And so what I would really, really encourage you to do is that this is a deeply painful experience that I want you to be able to get into your own work. Get into therapy and understand how is this impacting you? How is this affecting you? And how eventually do you become a little bit more of a safer person?

And I'm a big believer in this: every single one of us has a safety or comfort magnet in us. And we're gravitated towards safe or comfort. Now sometimes the magnet's broken, don't get me wrong. But when we become a safe person, especially for our children, they gravitate to that over time. And so that's what I would look at is Jane, what's inside of me that has is disrupted, that is has made me unsafe for myself or other people and how do I become a more relationally safe and healthy person?

Brian Perez: Jane, what do you think of what you've heard?

Jane: Yeah. So I'm not what?

Brian Perez: Was it not what you thought you'd hear or?

Jane: Well, no, no, no. I go over and over all of this. Like I said, my girls knew and they said they have just kept telling me that it's not my fault just because patterns that these people have. And I can be whatever. Like I said, and it's doesn't go anywhere.

Jill Hubbard: Well, it's so frustrating and so, so destructive and painful when young people choose to deal with parents this way and cut off relationships of grandkids. I can't think of anything hardly more devastating relationally. And so obviously you continue to pray for them and pray that those walls will soften.

If you are moving—and that's a piece we learned after we'd been talking a while—and you don't want to throw the things away, I'm wondering even about—and Chris, what do you think about this?—of maybe Dad—let's take Mom out of the picture because unfortunately, we women can trigger things that we don't mean to trigger, especially for sons.

And maybe Dad writes a letter and you send it and just say, "We wanted to let you know we're moving. We have some of yours and your kids' things. Do you want them?"

Chris Williams: I think that's a great idea. I really do.

Jill Hubbard: And just keep it really simple and practical. Not like we're trying to use this to get back in with you, but it's just a practical request. And certainly, you know, times when there's like a loss in the family, major loss, often that's when families will reconnect. So if there's any way to get any information, do that. If there isn't, maybe you store the things, you pick out the best things, you store it at one of the sister's houses until they ask for it. And I think it's okay to reach out periodically to say, "Still here, praying for you guys whenever you want to reconnect. We're here and we would love to hear what we could do to re-engage in relationship with you."

Chris Williams: I think that's really good because in keeping it as really short and simple as possible—don't go on and on and on.

Brian Perez: I would say on that initial letter too to maybe put a date on, you know, "We're going to be moving, so if we don't hear from you by April 30th" or whatever because otherwise, it kind of keeps it open-ended. And if they don't reply back right away, then you just have your plan B that it goes to another relative's house that has the room for it and maybe you pair it back a little bit. And you don't make that a monumental issue.

Brian Perez: All right, Jane. Thanks so much for calling in today here on New Life Live. We're going to send you a registration to an upcoming webinar that we've got on April 14th. It's called Freedom from Fear and Anxiety. Everyone else watching and listening, you can find out more about that webinar by texting the word WEBINAR to 28950. Jane, thanks for calling in today. We're going to hear from Cheryl and Ann when we come back here on New Life Live. God bless you guys. If this is your first time listening and you have no idea who we are, go to our website. We've got so much information there at newlife.com. We'll be right back.

Hello, it's Becky Brown and I am so excited to launch our 99 For The One partner initiative. Every day we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression, all kinds of ways and it reminds us of the story in Luke 15 where the shepherd leaves the 99 to go rescue the one.

And you know, we've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99 For The One is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we can continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE or newlife.com/9941.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live. This weekend we're celebrating the eternal hope that the death and resurrection of Jesus provides for each of us. But right now we're here in a broken world and sometimes things hold us back from living in freedom.

If you feel trapped by past pain, toxic relationships, or patterns that won't break, the Take Your Life Back 12-week online course will help you break free from what's been holding you down. Whether it's codependency, guilt, regret, unhealthy boundaries, or emotional wounds, you'll rediscover who you are in Christ. It's time to reclaim your future. This course begins the first week in May and you can get all the details at newlife.com.

Got some phone calls to get to, but first I think Chris wanted to mention something.

Chris Williams: Yeah, I think Jane brought something up in her painful experience that I think is really important to address because you know we're here researching it as much as we can and yet we see this common occurrence happen with ghosting or estrangement. And that is the way I like to say it is someone gives us blank pieces of paper to write really bad stories on. And we write really bad stories about ourselves, really bad stories about other people, but because it's blank we don't have the facts that we need, we don't have the storyline, we don't have the character development and it creates so much internal chaos inside of us to try to figure out the un-figure-out-able. So Jane's experience unfortunately and painfully is common in the sense that when you're ghosted you just go into chaos.

Jill Hubbard: Yeah, it does cause a internal spiral, I think, for people because I mean for us moms who are so connected to our kids and right, wrong or indifferent parenting doesn't just stop because they became an adult. And already like Jane with a son, already you have to take the back seat and become female number two when they get married. And then to have your child cut off all contact—huge fear, red flags, and over-examining probably and having to learn to step back and it's abrupt letting go. It isn't the gradual letting go that we envision that we envision as healthy. It's an abrupt just tearing.

Chris Williams: Well, and in that rupture, what I'm hoping to communicate clearly is not that if I go get help in the rupture that I'm at fault or responsible. It's no that I'm carrying pain and this confusion that I need clarity and healing for.

Jill Hubbard: Right, and that we can't control other people as you said. We do have to take a step back and even if our part is very small in that, we look at that, right? Where did we overstep boundaries and not that it would have caused it to not happen, but at least we gain clarity.

Brian Perez: Let's talk to Cheryl in Oklahoma City, who listens to us on Sirius XM Channel 131. Hey Cheryl, thanks for listening. Thanks for calling. How can we help you?

Cheryl: Thank you. I have a problem. My husband and I have taken over guardianship of two of our youngest grandchildren because our granddaughter was raped by her stepbrother. Well, we're in a different state than they are. He's in a different state than what the kids are. Well, last night the younger brother, who is eight, went across to play with the neighbors and they were all having a good time. Right before bedtime, I got a text from the mother and he had told her children about this rape. I don't know what to do because now he can't play with them and I don't know that I trust him to not tell everybody about this and it just crushed his sister. And I don't know what to do.

Jill Hubbard: How old is he?

Cheryl: He's eight years old.

Jill Hubbard: So he's processing. He's unfortunately taking this information that is overwhelming for him, not knowing what to do with it and he's sort of just processing out loud without proper boundaries. And we don't want to shame him because he has a need to talk about what has happened to his family and to make sense of it. And so it's just like when kids are little and they are discovering their bodies, we put parameters around that so that they know where it's appropriate and where it's not.

And so this is an indication that probably grandson does need a place to talk about it. So it might be a therapist, but it would probably start with you and your husband, Cheryl, just sitting down to him and asking him about what he thinks about what happened to his family. How does it make him feel? And just get him to talk about so you have a sense of what's stirring inside of him. And then to let him know that he can talk about it with you guys at any time and that it's important to bring these kinds of feelings to trusted adults. That his friends have probably not had this experience and they don't know what to do with it. And so we bring this to trusted adults in our life and we sit as a family. Because see part of when bad things happen, that's not the worst of it for a kid. The worst of it is something bad happened and then nobody ever talks about it because, "Oh we don't want to upset them, we don't want to stir it up." So the kids are left alone to try to process this. So Cheryl, as painful as this is for you and what happened to your daughter, you've got to now you have a responsibility with these kids and you've got to make room for them to process what happened at their level.

Chris Williams: And I think getting him into a good child therapist because they're so skilled. Because he may not know how to open up about it. He may not know how to talk about it. He is blurting it out, but it could be unsafe with adults because we don't know what his experience has been. But regardless, in addition to creating that safe space as you mentioned, is to reiterate if you can get him in with someone that could help and guide this would be super helpful.

Jill Hubbard: Well, and I think someone could teach all of you: how do we talk about something so horrible? Right? And you all need to learn that. So I think that would also too to the neighbors and all of that, to let them know we realize he's dealing with it and he doesn't know how to deal with it. So these are the steps we're taking. So we just want you to know that that we're sorry that your kids were exposed, but we're going to get him help so he has a place to talk about it.

Chris Williams: And here's the boundaries that we're putting in place as well.

Cheryl: So how do I deal with the sister? She was crushed when he because she said, "Nana we came down here so nobody would know."

Chris Williams: So she's carrying the embarrassment and the exposure of that is really painful for her.

Jill Hubbard: She needs therapy for sure, but some family therapy so that we can properly put this thing in its place. Because being able to really help her work through and offload the shame of what's happened to her is really important. But also safety, safety, safety, safety. Well, and so they came to you guys so nobody would know, but that also creates a climate of secrecy and shame and kind of reinforces that. So some people do need to know.

Cheryl: Their mom and dad is going through a divorce and it it just I mean we brought them down here basically for their safety.

Jill Hubbard: Well, yes for that. But your granddaughter doesn't want anybody to know the story because it's so painful. So we need to help her with the painful story so that if people know, she doesn't carry the shame of it. Bad things happen and that's also again really I can already tell by the eight-year-old has never learned boundaries. So he's spilling out everywhere, you know. And so this is where good therapeutic responsible help can really help grow them.

Boundaries exist to protect that which is valuable. And so but when you have people that don't have their own personal value or value system, then their the boundaries become very difficult. And that's where healing growth and boundaries all work together. And I think getting them into some therapeutic support and help would be great.

Brian Perez: Is there ever an age that's too young for therapy? Because some people might think eight years old.

Chris Williams: Well, I think the better question is making sure that we have people very skilled at the age in which they go to therapy. A good child therapist is really important.

Brian Perez: Cheryl, thanks for calling in today too to New Life Live and everyone watching and listening if you could keep Cheryl's family in prayer. I mean that's a horrible situation that they've had to endure and now the granddaughter's reliving it because of what just happened and now the neighbor's kids and everything else. So just keep them all in prayer.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live. Through your financial support you are instrumental in providing life-changing resources that not only meet immediate needs but also sow seeds of everlasting change. Every gift makes a difference and you can give online at newlife.com, by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE or by texting NLM to 28950.

To make a difference on a monthly recurring basis you can become a 99 For The One partner. You can learn more at newlife.com/9941. Thank you for whatever you can do. Your generosity really changes lives. Now right before the break we were speaking with Cheryl and just a tough situation.

Jill Hubbard: Yeah, and I just wanted to clarify because once in a while I don't hear who the exact players are. And so Cheryl, I was thinking it was your daughter who was raped which would be the kids' mother, but the guys are telling me it was 12-year-old granddaughter. So of course you want even more so to protect a child and she deserves privacy and brother really betrayed that unknowingly really betrayed that. So by all means she needs to be in therapy and be really supported about this.

Chris Williams: Well, and I think as painfully as we experience child abuse in many different forms, when that happens to a child there is many things that happen, but two primary things is that the world now is unsafe. And so what they need beyond anything else is a safe world to come around them and care for them.

The other thing that's taken from them is the word I use is agency. It's the ability to make something of myself and the world around me is like their ability to make a sound decision is often times taken from them as well. They start distrusting themselves. And so helping them get that safe place where they're able to express themselves, work through it, also work some boundaries around that again to protect the sanctity of the person and the situation.

Jill Hubbard: Right, because granddaughter really needs to feel like there are adults in the room who care and that are going to step in and keep her safe, not that she's a pariah that needs to be avoided. That would be very sad.

Chris Williams: Well, and there's multiple traumas going on here. The family's breaking up, they're away from their friends, they're away from what they've known, they're in a new world and that 12-year-old girl and that 8-year-old boy need a tremendous amount of support.

Brian Perez: What do you do with the neighbors right now? All of a sudden their kids come to them and say, "Hey guess what little Johnny just told us this." The parents went to the other parents and said hey this is happening but just how to navigate that because first of all the trust that these kids had to tell Mom and Dad, hey here's a story we just told. They could have kept that to themselves but they chose to tell.

Chris Williams: The mess of trauma keeps going. It expands. I use the word contagion. And so the contagion is spreading and these families who are exposed to this information reasonably want to protect their own children. I think it requires adults getting in the room and just talking through it. Now that's easier said than done because we're all going to carry our greatest fears and our greatest frustrations around these particular things and that's where a lot of communication could get broken down. But if there's a way to reasonably talk through this: here's what's happened, here's what we need, here's what all the children need in this moment to move forward. We may have different ideas but ultimately it goes down to the parent deciding what they need best for their own children.

Jill Hubbard: Yeah, and definitely communication with the neighbors. The adults without the kids need need to talk it through and not just, okay now we don't want to play with you anymore and leave it at that and so then again there's shame. I have to avoid these people and they avoid her. But I think when you talk face to face it breeds some understanding and some hopefully some compassion.

Chris Williams: Well, and I like the advice that you gave, Jill. I thought it was really wise of for the grandparents to take a proactive approach to say, "Hey here's what's happened." And if you do what I call the "both-and" approach: I understand and it makes sense that you would take this stance, and can I give you a little bit of context? Giving you context doesn't sound like a defense; it just sounds like a greater sense of understanding.

Brian Perez: But if that is the ultimate consequence, if the kids can't play with each other anymore, I mean you just leave it at that if that's what that family decides?

Jill Hubbard: Well, I think that's in the therapeutic process. Hopefully those neighbors would be more compassionate and could become part of her support team now that they know and understand the context instead of being afraid. But if they can't go there, that's part of in therapy the grieving that not everybody understands, but that again this isn't something that makes granddaughter bad. Or grandson for saying. Grandson is just very naive and full of his feelings and not understanding.

Chris Williams: And I think one of the things because I think that's important question because one of the things is that we get into a lot of scarcity meaning this: if I can't play with those kids then the world of friends is locked out for me. I'm like no we got to stay open to other options and other opportunities as we're going through this process. So maybe unfortunately the consequence or the response from this situation prohibits them playing together for the time being.

Jill Hubbard: I hope not. I hope those parents are more mature than that because this young girl needs to see that she's okay and that people will understand and love her and will help keep her safe. Not that she's a pariah that needs to be avoided. That would be very sad.

Chris Williams: I would hope so too, but I'm saying if they don't, then the world is full of people. And we got to open up other options for them to be able to.

Jill Hubbard: Well, and the lesson is not everybody is the same. Just because one person pushes away what they're afraid of doesn't mean everybody will. And so you don't want granddaughter to generalize and feel like everybody now is unsafe and I have this hidden shame because there's something wrong with me.

Brian Perez: Well, thanks so much for joining us today on this Good Friday edition of New Life Live and it is a special weekend, Easter Sunday just around the corner. They say this is one of two times every year when people are very open to attending church. So invite someone. Maybe you yourself haven't been to church in a while, perhaps ever since COVID, but you've been feeling that nudge in your heart to get back with God's people. Or maybe you've never even been to church and have no idea what it means to have a personal relationship with Christ. You either stumbled upon this radio station or you listen to this show because you like the advice and encouragement you hear. Well, let's change that right now. Call us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE and ask for, "How do you turn your life over to God?" We'll send you that free of charge. And be sure to bookmark newlife.com. Check back regularly for details on all the ways that we are here to walk with you toward your new life. Don't forget our webinar coming up on April 14th. It's called Freedom from Fear and Anxiety. You can sign up for that today. Just text the word WEBINAR to 28950 and we'll send you a link as well as a tip sheet on anxiety. God bless you guys. We'll see you at church on Easter Sunday and we'll be back with you on Monday here on New Life Live.

Thank you so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to newlife.com to find out more information. And thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing and we're so glad that you're here.