New Life LIVE

Announcer: Welcome to the New Life Live podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: Welcome everyone to New Life Live. I'm your host, Brian Perez. If you woke up today feeling exhausted from saying yes to everyone, I'm going to ask you to say yes one more time to my suggestion that you call us at 1-800-229-3000. We'll help you set boundaries and start saying no.

We're going to be here for two hours today. We’ve got Dr. Jim Burns in the studio. He's the founder of Homeword. Also here is licensed marriage and family therapist Mark Cameron, author of *Understanding Your Attachment Style*. Mark, what's on your mind to start us off?

Mark Cameron: Today I want to talk about the difference between change and growth. Those two things aren't the same. They do both involve something becoming different, but not all change is growth. Change occurs typically from a circumstance, like we make a shift because something that was once working for us is no longer working because of something from outside of ourselves.

Many people begin therapy or addiction recovery this way. They hit rock bottom or they're about to lose something of great importance to them, so they agree to go. That doesn't discount the effort, but if it's not internalized, then once circumstances shift and become more favorable again, that's when people start to relapse because the shift in behavior was dependent upon someone else or something else.

Growth is different. I like to say traffic lights change and seasons change, but then they change back again. If you think about a tree, trees grow. When trees grow, they grow through seasons, but trees become different and they don't go back to what they once were. They transform. They don't go back to becoming a sapling again.

Many people who are struggling in relationships will look at improvement being through change. Oftentimes it's this unspoken contract of, "Okay, if you do your part, then I'm going to do my part." When two people have that mindset, people stay stuck, and real growth doesn't work that way. You can change your job, you can change your spouse, but the same patterns are going to stay with you if you don't actually grow.

Years ago, I noticed the pattern that was in my life. A lot of people were telling me the same thing, and they were all disconnected from one another. What they were telling me was that I was very defensive. I had an emotional sensitivity to feedback. Even when the feedback was constructive and it would've been good for me, I didn't receive it as information. I received it as criticism and I reacted defensively. I justified my behavior and oftentimes I just hurled criticism back, but that just kept me stuck and repeating the same pattern.

There's a powerful quote from a guy called Viktor Frankl. He was an Austrian neurologist and Holocaust survivor. In the camp, he experienced this helplessness that he couldn't change. He wrote in his book after that, "When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves."

We can spend our whole lives trying to change everyone else, or we can begin the work of growth. Only growth is within our control. Relational growth actually happens when we become more dissatisfied with our own reactivity patterns than we do with the other person, and we stop insisting that other people change first.

Here are a few quick differences between change and growth. Change is reactive, but growth is reflective. Change is quick, while growth is slow. Change is external, yet growth is internal. Change says, "How do I get out of this?" Growth says, "What is this moment trying to teach me?" Change is something often really happening to us, whereas growth is something happening through us. So today, my question and challenge for listeners are, instead of saying what needs to change here, maybe the better question is, where am I being invited to grow?

Jim Burns: Great input. You said say yes for our callers. I want to say yes whenever Mark's in the room. I just want to call and ask questions myself. Really wise.

Brian Perez: Mark Cameron, licensed marriage and family therapist, author of *Understanding Your Attachment Style*, is here in the studio with us for this hour and next hour. So call in to 1-800-229-3000. So is Dr. Jim Burns, the founder of Homeword. We can't wait to speak with you. Sharon, you're going to be the first call of the day, first call of the week really, when we come back on New Life Live.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Sometimes reaching out is the first step God uses to bring healing. So reach out at 1-800-229-3000. You don't have to walk through this alone, whatever your "this" is. Call in to get some advice from Jim and Mark. Today is Monday. You know what that means? A new episode of our Every Man's Battle podcast dropped today. In this one, J.J. West and Doug Barnes talk with longtime Every Man's Battle workshop facilitator Jim Phills, who talks about how a terrifying confession to a prayer partner at a pastor's conference opened the doorway to real change and accountability. You can find it on the New Life app, on the New Life YouTube channel, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Let's go to the phones now. 1-800-229-3000. Sharon is calling from New York. She watches us on YouTube. So let's wave hi to Sharon. Thanks for calling in today to 1-800-229-3000.

Sharon: Thank you for taking my call. I have an estranged son who is 28, and I don't really know how to handle this. There's a lot of sadness in my home because of this. We were pretty close, all of us, and I'm not really sure how to handle this correctly. Do I not reach out? Do I reach out? I don't know, so I thought I would ask you guys.

Brian Perez: You picked a great day to call in because Dr. Jim Burns is on with us and he's got a book coming out next week. In fact, I have an advance copy right here. It's called *When Your Adult Child Strays*. Jim, what do you say to Sharon?

Jim Burns: Sharon, it’s not easy. By the way, you are in the 27%. 27% of families have someone in their family who's estranged, and a lot of times it's an adult child. Do you know if the estrangement started with him? He started it and he's the one who walked away? Do you know why he did? Half the time people don't know, but do you know?

Sharon: Yes, I kind of do. He's always had a difficult relationship from his teens on with my husband. Me and him always had a great relationship. He cut off my entire family two years ago, but he continued to speak with me until this past September. Then I didn't hear from him anymore. It was funny, two weeks after I went to visit him, he ran off and eloped. Not that I care, but all these things are happening that I don't really know how to handle.

Jim Burns: One thing is we can't fix it quickly. It doesn't work. You seem exactly like the person who would be the dream person who's in an estranged relationship to do the right thing. The right thing is—and Tina Gilbertson, I recommend her book by the way on reconnecting with your estranged child, it's not a Christian book but it's a great book—Tina Gilbertson says it's not about who's right or wrong. It's about mending the fences.

What you want to do is kind of, I say, tiptoe back into the relationship. He stopped talking to you, but I might say, "When you're ready, I'd love to have coffee with you. There's not going to be a lecture. I just miss you and I love you." Throw him in disequilibrium a little bit by not saying, "You're incredibly wrong and we are incredibly right," because that's what we need to do. When we do that, we kind of push them away even more.

Anybody who deals with estrangement is going to say you're going to have to embrace different views. Obviously, him eloping is not a great story and there's other, I'm sure, not good stories. But the goal is at the beginning to reestablish connection and change the tone of the relationship. You sound like exactly the person who can do that in a nice way. Maybe it's a short text you send saying, "Hey, I was just thinking about you today and I love you." You're thinking about him every day and he doesn't respond.

Say, "Is there any chance in the next two weeks you and I could just have coffee? I just would love to look in your face. I'm your mom, I love you." Literally when you do that, you'll have a hundred things you want to say; don't say any of them. Honestly, just say it that way.

Sharon: Jim, I did do that, actually. He lives four and a half hours from me. I drove there and I showed up on his front step. We spent an afternoon and we talked about a lot of stuff. Then I never heard from him again.

Jim Burns: I loved our time—you probably didn't love every part of the time—but say, "I really loved seeing you. Is there any chance we could do that again? I won't just show up at your door," smiley face, "but I would love to drive down the four and a half hours and I'd love to have coffee."

Again, you're just reestablishing the relationship. Then you move there. Obviously, in this kind of situation, and the Bible says this, where there's no counsel the people fall. Where there is counsel, there is safety. So you want the safety of wise counsel. You want the safety of somebody helping you through this.

Kind of tiptoe back into it. I would do it that way. I just, listening to your voice, you're the one. You can make this happen. But it takes a long time. I wish I could say in three months you're going to be back together. No, it takes sometimes a really long time. He's got to get readjusted to this relationship that he eloped with, all those kinds of things. He's kind of in a mess. Because he took the meeting with you when you showed up, that means he's not willing to walk away for good with you.

I find that a lot of people like yourself have a really, it ends up it changes it, but when you embrace his different and you still show love and acceptance, it does change over time. You do draw closer. Then you can work on the things he can work on with your husband and others and whatnot. Tiptoe back into the relationship and be patient.

Sharon: It's hard to be patient. It's the one topic on your heart. It's a broken heart.

Jim Burns: Absolutely. Acknowledge that. That's why you want to make sure, Sharon, that you have people around you who are what I call a circle of support—your circle of support who actually know the story. Sometimes people won't talk to anybody because they feel shame that they have a son who estranges. Make sure that there's people around you who love on you and care for you. Then make sure that you do get the right wise counsel. I don't think most people can work through a good estrangement situation without getting counsel from somebody like Mark. Somebody in your neck of the woods who can help you understand some of the principles, as well as there's some great books out there. There's some great even small groups that you can be in just on that. Start with New Life. Call them and ask them what kind of a group would be helpful for you.

Mark Cameron: Jim's given you such a comprehensive answer. I don't know how much I can add to what he's saying about how to move forward, but I am curious. You said that your son has had a difficult relationship with your husband. Is your husband his dad?

Sharon: Yes.

Mark Cameron: Why is the relationship difficult or strained?

Sharon: My husband has always been a little bit of a helicopter parent. I think he wanted to give my son the relationship that he always wanted with his father. My son has always had a difficult time speaking his emotions. So I think that's a lot of the problem. My husband would be like, "What's going on?" and "Share how you feel," and he just never would. Then he was gone. I think he had a lot built up. I do.

Mark Cameron: It sounds like your son took that as intrusive or overwhelming for him to respond to all of this. Is your husband interested in repairing the relationship too?

Sharon: Yes, he's reached out to him too multiple times.

Mark Cameron: Is he willing to do what Jim is saying? Is he willing just to sit and listen rather than to tell or explain?

Sharon: Yes, he is, actually.

Mark Cameron: That's good. That may happen with time. It might start with you first, Sharon, and then maybe you can introduce the idea that dad is also willing to do some of these same efforts if you would give him a chance to do that. I think you might be surprised. It may start with you building up these efforts as Jim is saying.

It sounds like your son, if he's gone off and he's eloped, he's lost right now so to speak in this new relationship. He's burying himself in that. Hopefully, he's known this person for a while and he hasn't just met them and gone off and eloped. As you establish contact, of course, that's going to be the most important thing to him in his life in this current moment. I would start to find out more about his current wife and see if you can start to build a relationship with her too. Not separately from him, because he may see that as a type of manipulation if you go directly to her, but just ask. "You've married someone and this is your partner, this is your spouse, and I want to get to know that person too. What can I do to be a support for you both?" That's a great offer to say that because then he knows you're here for him and you're here to support him. Then maybe there's something that he can take you up on in that.

Jim Burns: Sharon, he eloped, so that meant they didn't have a traditional wedding. They didn't have a traditional celebration. If you and your husband can cough up a little bit of a gift or a present and just say, "Hey, we're anxious to one day be able to meet." When you meet her, you might be able to make a direct inroad to him by being wonderful to her. You could probably give me a list of 500 reasons why this elope thing isn't the perfect deal.

Your husband, he should listen to this too. This is also on a podcast. He should listen to it because one of the principles that I talk a lot about is unsolicited advice is usually taken as criticism. I have scars on my tongue because I have three adult daughters and I want to always give them advice, but they take that as, "You don't believe I'm all grown up." I've had to learn to keep my mouth shut, keep the welcome mat out, that kind of a thing.

Even with your husband, the best way for him to make inroads is to put away his helicopter 101 and land that helicopter immediately and now treat your son as somewhat of an equal. We can do that better with people who are in our workforce, at our church, things like that, but that's what we do. I think you could, as Mark was saying, when he's just eloped and he's just got married, it's hard to think about too much more. But a nice little gift and what not and put her in disequilibrium. You're not the bad parents. Who knows what he says about his family because he's estranged. Be the ones where she goes, "God, that was really nice of them to think about it." If you have 20 things you want to say, say none of them if they're negative and say one positive thing. "I'm anxious to meet you," whatever.

Brian Perez: Happy to see that the scars on your tongue from biting it so often are starting to heal.

Jim Burns: I do wake up sometimes going, "I just added to that scar" because I said, "Hey, have you thought about...?" It's not even a terrible thing and our kids aren't in the worst of places, but I do that and then I just go, "What am I thinking? I need to read my own books." That's what my wife says. "You need to work on principle number two."

Brian Perez: Jim's written several books. *Doing Life with Your Adult Children* is available in the NewLife.com store. His forthcoming book, we're talking like we're days away, *When Your Adult Child Strays*. This is a great book for you to pick up as well. Pastor Doug Fields said about this book, "This is the book every parent hopes they'll never need but desperately need when they do." So pick that up when it comes out, *When Your Adult Child Strays: Trading Heartache for Hope*. May 5th. Cinco de Mayo. We're going to have a Cinco de Mayo party at Homeword just so I don't have to wear a sombrero. I don't look good in a sombrero.

We'll be the judge of that and we'll put it on our TikTok. We're on TikTok now. We'll lose followers. 1-800-229-3000 is the number to call us today. Let's go to Carrie in Los Angeles, who is listening on NewLife.com. Hey, Carrie, thanks for calling in today. How can we help you?

Carrie: Thank you so much. I really appreciate everything that New Life has been giving us for decades, I guess now, through Steve Arterburn and several of the other women psychologists as well. I do have a question. I have a friend who has serious memory problems. Her mom did as well. I noticed it a little bit four years ago and haven't really seen her in a couple of years. But now that I've been a little bit more involved with her, I see how serious it is. I'm wondering, as I get into this, I'm trying to care for myself, try not to control too much, and realize not to have great expectations.

Brian Perez: We're coming up to our break. We'll continue this conversation when we come back. We're waiting for you guys to call in too. 1-800-229-3000 is the number to call. Carrie, we’ll come back to you in just a moment.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: And we're back to Carrie in Southern California. Thanks so much for calling in, Carrie. She's calling because of her friend who Carrie says is very forgetful and she's just trying to figure out how to navigate this herself without being a controlling person. That reminds me, you guys can call on behalf of your friends. 1-800-229-3000 is the number. We're going to be here for the next 90 minutes or so. So what questions do you guys have for Carrie?

Mark Cameron: I'm curious, Carrie, because you said you've been disconnected from this friend for four years, and it sounds like you're moving back into relationship with her. But then I also hear you saying you're trying to reduce expectations and not control. Usually when we're disconnected from someone for that long, my advice would be to ease your way back into a relationship with someone. What's your concern about you wanting to control or having higher expectations in this relationship since you're just reconnecting back with her?

Carrie: Can you repeat that, please?

Mark Cameron: I said, what's your concern about you having higher expectations or wanting to control in this relationship since you're just reconnecting back with her?

Carrie: Well, I'm just wondering what my boundaries really realistically should be. I mean, should I get out of the way so that it'll run its course? But I am concerned about her safety. She's still driving and walking.

Mark Cameron: So how did you come back into relationship with this person?

Carrie: At Thanksgiving last year, she called me and said she wanted to take me out for Thanksgiving dinner. But I think before that, after four years ago, I noticed that there was a problem. I live in a care home myself. So I'm the one who needs help. I had asked her for a ride to my doctor's, and she didn't come to pick me up. Later I asked her what the problem was and she said she drove around in this area and couldn't remember why she was here. So I knew four years ago there was a problem. But through these four years, I'm the one who needed help myself and I'm taking care of myself. But recently last Thanksgiving she did call. Since then we've been more involved and gone out to lunch and I could see there was really a strong problem, a big problem, serious. I made some suggestions, but she was still working one day a week and wasn't open to any suggestions, really. But she was let go from her work. She was only working one day a week, but two weeks ago she was asked to retire.

Mark Cameron: I think, with the limited pieces of information you've given us, I think you're on the right track in learning to set realistic expectations is what I would say rather than reduce expectations. I would ease my way back into a relationship with someone after so long because, you know, when we start a new relationship, we're just learning about people. But when we reconnect in a relationship, we already know a lot about the other person. So I would exercise some caution for yourself in the sense of if you're dependent upon people to get to places, especially appointments and things like that, if this is somebody who may have memory issues and they might not show up on time, I wouldn't rely on that person for those kinds of things. And if I do set an appointment with that person, I would also, again, adjust my expectation that it might not work out, that person might forget or it might not go the way that I hope that it would go. So my suggestion would be just to ease your way back in. I'm also curious about when you say that you don't want to control, what the things are that you think that you might be looking to control and how.

Jim: It's a great question, actually. And that's I think that's a great question, Carrie, to be thinking about: what are those issues? If it causes you disappointment, in a sense, you're reinventing a relationship that sounds like it's a long-term relationship because you even know that her mother had memory issues. You're coming back into a relationship, but when that happens, we do reinvent the relationship. So what Mark is saying, and I agree with him wholeheartedly, is that she's not going to be the person who's going to drive you to an appointment anymore. You don't want her to be that person. But you can still have a different relationship with her. And the word that comes to my mind is she has a disability because of her memory. So she may not even agree with you on things, and you might have to grieve the relationship that you once had with her. So you're reinventing it. And so now you reinvent, you could have a lovely lunch with her and you could think back when you go back into your room at your care facility or whatever, kind of go, "Wow, our relationship has changed." I have a friend who was one of my very good friends and has some of the same things. And when I'm with him now, I realize it's not the same, but I've had to learn that it's going to be okay. But no, I'm not going to depend on him for most anything, but I am going to—which I would have at one time—but now I can still have a relationship with different expectations and really not a whole lot of expectations to help me, but it becomes more about us in that short time celebrating or whatever, watch a game together, whatever it might be. You can still do that.

Brian Perez: We have a webinar coming up on grief. You mentioned that, Jim. Carrie, we're going to send you a registration to that just for calling in today to New Life Live. It's called *Grief: Hope and Healing After Loss*. It's happening in July. A lot of people think of grief and loss as just something that happens with death. But sometimes it could be just a friend who's going through things and the friendship's never going to be the same and you need to grieve that. So stay on the phone and we'll get you registered. Everyone else, you can sign up at NewLife.com. 1-800-229-3000. Sarah's next.

Becky Brown: Hello, it’s Becky Brown. I am so excited to launch our 99 for the 1 partner initiative. Every day, we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They’ve been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression, all kinds of ways, and it reminds us of the story in Luke 15 where the shepherd, they leave the 99 to go rescue the one. And you know, we’ve seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life, and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99 for the 1 is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE, 1-800-639-5433, or NewLife.com/99for1.

Brian Perez: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

We've got a call from Dallas, Texas. Sarah, listening on KWRD. Thank you for calling 1-800-229-3000. You're on with Dr. Jim Burns and Mark Cameron. Welcome.

Sarah: Hi, good afternoon. My husband was physically and emotionally abused while he was a child. His parents had the same kind of relationship between themselves. His mother sends him text messages often. If he doesn't respond quickly, she gets angry and sends an angry text. While he has—well, we have communication, or he—we get into an argument or something, he gets very angry and is very unforgiving and then he attributes his mother's characteristics to me and I'm wondering what should I do?

Mark Cameron: Sorry to hear all this is going on, Sarah. Has your husband done any work to address the abuse that he's gone through?

Sarah: He has not, and I've requested for him to go to counseling and he's very resistant.

Mark Cameron: Does he at least acknowledge that his past experiences have affected him in a negative way?

Sarah: Not really, no.

Mark Cameron: Does he acknowledge that he was abused?

Sarah: Yes, he does.

Mark Cameron: Okay, but he doesn't acknowledge that it's actually impacted him.

Sarah: Correct.

Mark Cameron: It could just be that that is a defense mechanism inside of him. If his mom shamed him when he was younger, it could just be so devastating to him internally to admit that he's flawed and he has areas to work on, and that's not uncommon. It's also not uncommon what you said too, that a person may attribute someone else's characteristics to you. That's called displacement when we do that. We take our feelings out towards someone else significant and we put them on someone who's safer. That's common. Oftentimes it's subconscious, too, so we're not actually aware that we're doing it, but that doesn't detract from the impact of what it is. Now, you said that he's not willing to go to individual therapy?

Sarah: He's been resistant. He didn't say he wouldn't. He did say he would at one point, but now he seems a little bit hesitant.

Mark Cameron: What about couples therapy? Would he be interested in doing that?

Sarah: No, I don't think he would. He's done that before in a previous marriage and he said that doesn't work.

Mark Cameron: Well, I would explore to see if he's willing to go to individual therapy again and that's where I would start. But what I—I was going to give you a thought, but tell me what you've done so far.

Sarah: Well, I did bring it to his attention and when he does these things, I say, "Do you think this is any way related to what's happened to you before, your anger and the way you've described your parents?" And I've asked him to go to counseling and I said, "I don't have to be there, you should go on your own and work this out that way you can't say that I am being biased or I'm not contributing to it, so whatever work you're having done is between you and the counselor and then you and I can work on things."

Mark Cameron: Are you in counseling right now, Sarah?

Sarah: No.

Mark Cameron: This would be my suggestion for you. My suggestion would be for you to lead the way. I know sometimes that can feel a little bit unfair, but I just think you're stuck in this dynamic and you probably need help too. You probably need direction. Also, I mean, I can empathize with what you're saying your experience is with him, but we also know that two people are involved here and no one is perfect. And so there's probably a part of the pattern that you hold too, not to say that you're responsible for somebody abusing you, even if that's verbally or emotionally. But each of us does hold a part because we're not perfect. And so I think you getting into therapy first and you starting to work with a therapist, somebody who may be willing to have your husband join later on, and you tell them the situation and you ask them too for feedback of "What do you think that I might be doing that contributes to this situation?"

Then also ask, "What are some suggestions that you think that I could do to invite him to come along?" And oftentimes, I mean, what I would say to someone in this situation is, as you go and you work on your own stuff, you would ask your husband, "What are some things that you see in me that if I worked on would improve our relationship?" Now, that's often counterintuitive to what we want to say because we want to say exactly what you did, "Hey buddy, you've got a lot of problems and you need to work on this stuff before we get together." But when you start that way, it models a vulnerability. It models what you're trying to get from him. Oftentimes I'll say that to people: why don't you listen in a way that you would hope your spouse would listen to you? And that's a challenge because then you get because if somebody doesn't know how to do something, they need a model for it. And so if you model for them how to do it, then that's how people learn. But that's an easier way I think to invite someone into therapy if they see like, "Oh, you're actually going and you're doing the work and you're actually concerned about what my experience would be in the relationship too." So I would start that way. I know it can be counterintuitive because we want the other person—it’s exactly what I said in my opening, oftentimes we have this contract mindset where we say like, "You change first and then I'll change." And that's not really growth, but when we can approach it from, "I'm going to go grow anyway," and sometimes growth is learning to hold boundaries. But when we say, "I'm going to go and grow and then I'm going to invite the other person into that growth with me," then I think you really get to make a true assessment of where is this person at and their willingness.

Brian Perez: You took the word right out of my mouth. Counterintuitive. Because this is not what we would think would be the right answer, but great advice, Mark. Jim, what would you say?

Jim Burns: And it's what he's saying so well is that it's modeling, Sarah, a way for your husband to—your husband probably feels shame. Your husband feels afraid. He has fear talking to a counselor because he does some things, even toward you, that are unloving and angry. Anger is a secondary emotion. You—the good news is you know probably where a lot of this anger's coming from and it's not about you. That anger is coming from his experience as a child. A lot of times when people are angry, they honestly don't know why, and you have to kind of do that work first, but you've already—you already know that.

Mark and I were mind-reading each other here. We're sitting next to each other, but what I wanted to say was the same thing. I tell couples if he's not—he needs counseling, you know, and he needs to work through this. And before freedom comes pain, he's going to have to—it is painful. I don't want to go do something that's painful. And so for him to get freedom, he's going to have to work through that, and truly most of it's not about you. I'm guessing it's about his past. And his mom—did you say his mom is still sending those angry texts?

Sarah: Yes, yes, yes.

Jim Burns: That just drives you nuts. I get it. So if you go, and—would you say that your husband loves you?

Sarah: Yes.

Jim Burns: Okay, so he loves you. So you go and you start getting some help and you actually start getting some understanding of what's going on here. You're not going to counseling to fix him as much as you're going to counseling for your sake and to get the help. But you come back saying, "Hey, this was great. We even had a short conversation that it might be good for us sometime to come in," and then even you model first. In front of a counselor, if you model what Mark said—you know, what are some things that I could do more effectively or whatever. Guess what the counselor's going to say next if your husband doesn't. He's going to say, "Well, what about you?" and then name your husband, "How would you—if you're going to ask that same question, what would that be and what would that look like?"

And now they're going to help him, your husband, maybe get some of his feelings out. He doesn't sound like he's much doing that, but he's going into it with fear. I mean, I get this. He's been—think about how he's grown up. The fear and the shame and the guilt or whatever of, you know, he's got his mom and his dad in his head. And so somehow he has to get it out. And that's where counseling really is. All counseling is not a quick fix thing. This is not a quick fix thing. But if he could change, how amazing it would be because communication's a learned trait and he'll learn how to do that in a beautiful way, but you take the lead. You take the lead and I have a feeling that he'll follow.

Brian Perez: And what about the Intimacy in Marriage weekend intensive? I think that would be good for them to attend as a couple. Yeah, that's happening the weekend of July 24th in Washington, D.C. You can find out all about it at NewLife.com/IIM, as in Intimacy in Marriage. Or you can call us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE to get more details or to register. It would be great for you, Sarah, and any other couples that are going through similar situations. Or maybe you think your marriage is doing pretty well. Well, take the quiz on NewLife.com/IIM. More calls coming up. Helen, you will be next. Where are all the guys at? Call in. We're going to be in the studio for another hour. 1-800-229-3000. Call in, we'll be back.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

For our previous caller Sarah, we mentioned the Intimacy in Marriage intensive that's coming up soon. We've also got a couple of books in the NewLife.com store that would be very beneficial. There's *How We Love* and Mark's book, *Understanding Your Attachment Style*, so check that out in the NewLife.com store. And something else you can find out about at NewLife.com is *Healing is a Choice*. We can't always control what someone says to us in a text or email, but we can choose how to reply. In a similar sense, we can't always control what happens to us, but we can choose how to respond. *Healing is a Choice* is an online course we offer led by a therapist. In it, you'll be guided step-by-step through 12 powerful weeks of insight, scripture, and support, one hour at a time. Whether your wounds come from loss, betrayal, trauma, or disappointment, this course will help you begin again. And you can find out details about that at NewLife.com. So check that out.

Back to the phones. Here is Helen in Atlanta, Georgia, listening on SiriusXM channel 131. How can we help you, Helen?

Helen: Hello everyone. Well, I have a question on behalf of my friend. She has a husband who has issues with infidelity and lust and anger. For the longest time he's been saying he wants to get a divorce and leave, but recently he attended a freedom conference at church and has said that he wants to go to an inpatient program for assistance. He's worried that if he does anything locally, he doesn't have enough strength within himself to continue, and so he's asked his wife to find him something, and we're kind of at a loss as to what that would be. So I was hoping you could give some kind of recommendation as to what kind of inpatient program he could attend for help.

Brian Perez: Every Man's Battle comes to mind, but I don't think that's an inpatient. No, it's not. But there are—I would suggest that you call New Life. They have a list of different—there's probably a list—and I want to keep talking to you here in a second and we can get more insight. But there are inpatient programs. For example, if there's infidelity, lust, and anger, there's probably an addiction to pornography. You mentioned it. And there's some pretty amazing programs out there for—might even be a two-week program, but they're life-changing. And that program—what he has to understand is that if he goes to an inpatient, which is great, that they only are going to give you the tools to take that on for the rest of your life, whatever his issues are. But you'll get the tools and you'll be able to talk and you'll have a counselor right alongside. I'm curious to know why he wants to go inpatient first. Usually it's the parents of a child who want their child to go before they even get counseling, and this is a different story. He's asking for it. And then he's also asking his wife to find it. Why not—why can't he find it?

Mark Cameron: Well, and also what's the inpatient for? There's not usually inpatient infidelity recovery programs or anger recovery programs. Usually it's for addiction. There's a story behind the story here. Is it addiction? Does he have a porn problem? Do you know?

Helen: He does have addiction. He'll move from—I believe—gummies, other substances, drinking, and then of course the pornography. And he has been insightful enough to say that he just keeps moving from one to the other.

Mark Cameron: Well, that's good. It's good that he has a willingness. I think I would also set realistic expectations that inpatient programs are time-limited, typically maybe 30 days, 60 days, something like that. And they're really just meant to stabilize. They're not meant to resolve all of your issues. They're meant to stabilize you and get you to a point where you're in recovery or you're beginning recovery. But then they want to pass you off to other supports after that. And so that may be a good place for him to start, especially if he's willing to do that. As Jim said, if you call the 1-800-NEW-LIFE, that will get you to someone else who can give you some information on treatment programs.

But what I would say for your friend's wife too is they both need to work through the infidelity together. They both need to get a couples therapist or maybe go to a betrayal intensive weekend so that because this is a couples problem. Even though that he's the one who's committed the infidelity, she's hurt too. So she has a recovery process, he has a recovery process, and only when both of them are entering into that recovery process and doing that can the relationship then begin to recover. And part of his recovery is going to be seeing how he's hurt his wife, so that he can start to build that trust and develop empathy for how it's impacted her. And her recovery is going to happen when she gets that response from him, because that's the only way that she's going to start then to feel safe. So they're both going to need to—hopefully it's not being placed on well he's the one with the problem, we call that the identified patient and he's the one who needs to go get fixed. He may be the one who needs to get stabilized right now, but there's a recovery process for both of them in this.

Jim Burns: I was going to also add because I agree with you. One of the things—as soon as you said substance abuse and you started naming these other things, gummies, whatever, then that may stabilize him in a good way and they will point him in the directions. But I would imagine his wife, not all the time, and you definitely not—not that you're saying you can—is you may need to get to the primary issue. And if he has a substance abuse issue, and he's not going to work on this other stuff until he gets sober, clean and sober. So that's why it might be really good to call New Life. Why we say call New Life because we're not aware of a place in the Atlanta area. You're in Atlanta, right, Georgia? I actually am aware of a couple of them, but there are certain places that would be more beneficial. And an intake counselor can ask the right questions, and it's not going to be to you. It's going to have to be primarily to him or his wife. They can ask intake questions and then go to the direction of an intake experience that would be beneficial to some of his primary issues. And I'll be honest with you, most people who go into these inpatient, they have all those issues that you just mentioned too. So we want to get to the primary one. And that's why it's really cool that you called for your friend. And now they've got to take it on and maybe you can help them find a place. But start with that call to New Life. They'll truly—they know where to go. They know what to do. We don't. So we—meaning all of us who are listening to this radio show—we need to or podcast and all the things, we need to have the experts help you get down to what the best place is.

Brian Perez: And Helen, since you're on the phone with us right now, we can transfer you directly to the 1-800-NEW-LIFE because it's who we are. New Life Ministries. New Life Live is the radio show. And anyone else though listening who has a similar situation, you can call that number to find a counselor or a network of therapists near you, a life recovery group. We offer so much, so give us a call at 1-800-NEW-LIFE or check out NewLife.com. And we're going to be in the studio for another hour, so keep those calls a-coming to 1-800-229-3000 to speak with Dr. Jim Burns and Mark Cameron. Jim's got a book on estrangement coming out in just a few days, so if you want to talk about that, now's a good time to call. You can call on behalf of a friend like Helen did.

And yay, Helen, for doing that. I love that. Totally. Totally. And there is nothing quite like hearing when a friend or loved one or even a total stranger has chosen to follow Christ. But sometimes old habits die hard, as we just heard. Addictions, old friends, old flames creep in all when least expected. Testing and temptation is all around us, and New Life wants to be here when people reach out for help. So please consider financially supporting New Life Ministries and all of our endeavors, both on-air and off-air. You can make a one-time gift, large or small, at NewLife.com, by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE, or by texting NLM to 228950. And if you give online or by calling, please find out more about how to become a monthly recurring 99 for the 1 partner. Thank you so much for your generosity, which truly does change lives.

And like I said, we'll be here for another hour. So we'd love to hear from you. 1-800-229-3000. If you're watching us online right now on Facebook or YouTube, you can call in. Now is a good time because we're going to talk to you. We can't wait to help you find what it is that you're struggling with. You may not even know what it is, so call in to 1-800-229-3000.

Thanks so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember, we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to NewLife.com to find out more information. And thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing, and we're so glad that you're here.