New Life LIVE

Voiceover: Welcome to the New Life Live podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's Word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: Whatever you're doing this weekend, thanks for taking us along. We are New Life Live. I'm your host, Brian Perez. Fear, trauma, doubt—if these or something else are holding you back, it doesn't have to stay this way. Clinical psychologist Dr. Jill Hubbard will be joining us, and licensed marriage and family therapist Chris "The Confessor" Williams is here, confessing something else again, I'm sure.

Chris Williams: Yes, I have a confession. This is a pretty pervasive thing in my life. So Brian, I am a very high-maintenance person.

Brian Perez: You don't seem like it.

Chris Williams: I know, I hide it really well. But in all honesty, as a person who has struggled with addiction, who struggles with ADHD, bouts of depression, and anxiety, there's a lot going on inside of me. My internal world needs a daily conversion. I don't wake up typically calm, focused, relaxed, and motivated. In fact, most days I wake up a little bit lethargic, foggy, or as I like to say, loose.

This is a tough condition. If I ignore my mental, emotional, or internal fitness, it typically doesn't go well. In all honesty, this also includes my physical fitness as well. In being a high-maintenance person, oftentimes I've made the horrible mistake that I shouldn't be a high-maintenance person.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Well, that is quite a list, Chris.

Chris Williams: It's a list. When it comes to my journaling, my prayer time and how I structure that, and my exercise—all of the things I need to do in any particular day to hit my centerline is pretty exhaustive. But I also know what it's like when I don't. This speaks to all of the other people out there who may be like me. You might have a high-maintenance internal world, and I just want to say, welcome.

Therefore, it takes a lot of maintenance, and it doesn't mean anything's wrong with you. It doesn't mean you're a bad person or a broken person. It just means that for you to show up okay in the world, it just may take more. To ignore what it takes to show up well in the world has consequences.

The first thing I need to eliminate in my life, for me, is any sense of entitlement. The entitlement says that I can just show up however, whenever, and it's all going to work out just fine. That's the addict part of me that just says that I don't have to do anything or do any hard work in my own life and things will just work out. That's a subtle sense of entitlement that I have to get rid of.

So I have to get rid of this sense that I shouldn't have to because I'm a professional in this field or that I've evolved to a certain sense of whether it be spiritual growth, mental, emotional, or relational growth. Now some of that is true, but I come back down to all of this. What I find is those foundational rhythms, the rhythms that I have to do in my life to show up well, provide so much opportunity and help.

They actually are the foundation—I look at it as soil that continually needs the toxins released out of it and the nutrients put into it. One of the things that I do in my morning routine is I think about the things that I'm not. What I mean by that is I get a lot of stress and anxiety on me, and I put it back towards God. I release it: this isn't me, this isn't mine. As I go through that, what happens is that's extracting toxins from my life. That's much like confession; it's extracting toxins from our life. I find the more I extract toxins, the more nutrients just show up.

Brian Perez: Love that, Chris Williams. Our opening remarks today on New Life Live. We're not going to skip the phone calls today. In fact, we're going to go to S-K-I-P: Susan, Kelly, Isaac, and Patty, all coming up on New Life Live.

Voiceover: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: Let's go to Atlanta, Georgia. Susan listens to New Life Live on SiriusXM channel 131, and she's calling into the show today. Welcome, Susan. You're on with Dr. Jill Hubbard and Chris Williams.

Susan: Hello, thank you for taking my call. I love the show, and I listen every time I have an opportunity. I'm calling today—it actually aligns with what the gentleman was just thinking about. I have a 25-year-old daughter. She is a very studious young lady. She's a good young lady. She's not into drugs and alcohol. She doesn't have children. She's not married. She's finishing up her master's degree. She'll be finished with that at the end of the year.

We live in the same town. She has an apartment. She has recently announced that she wants to move back home, and I understand that. She can't really work enough to afford her apartment on her own until she gets the real job at the end of the year. Having said that, she suffers from bouts of anxiety and bouts of depression. She's actually on anxiety medication at a low dose now, and she's very aware of that.

But my question is how do I, as her mother, establish the proper boundaries when she moves back home? She's very respectful of our home, but she takes her frustration out on me. If she has an anxious day, she'll be very snippy. I talked to her today—she had something going on, and she just was snippy, very disrespectful, and hung up the phone.

Or she will quickly, if we're out shopping and I make a move she thinks I shouldn't have made—"Mom, why did you do that? You shouldn't have done that." So she's like reprimanding me. I seem to be the person in her life—she's not in a relationship. She has a small group of friends. She's not in a relationship at all. I think I'm her person in life.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: You're her safe person.

Susan: Maybe too much so. I don't know. That's why I wanted to call because she definitely wants to move back home, and I'm fine with that for a period of time, but I don't want to be subject to this every day. I want to give her the proper coaching because if I come across too harsh, I'll push her away. It takes nothing to push her into a shell.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: How do you deal with this with her living outside of the home?

Susan: I try to just ignore it unless it's something she's really gotten—raised her voice or something—which is not common. That is not a common thing at all. But it's just the pushing back and the hanging up and the attitude with me and the reprimanding all of the time. Even if I have plans for the weekend with friends—"Well, you didn't tell me. Well, I wish I had known, we could have done something." It's a very concerning situation in that I feel like she doesn't have anyone else to talk to, to be with, to relate to, and it's frustrating for her, and I'm sort of the brunt of all of that.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Right, you're the default person. So she needs you to fill in the gaps where her life is lacking as well as you're her mom, so she just accepts—like she doesn't filter with you. So I think if you're having her move in for a time-limited period for her to get some money and get on her feet, I think it warrants a conversation. I think you have to share with her your concerns and that you realize you don't address it well with her because you both kind of go your separate ways.

You realize she's stressed out, so you try to give her a lot of latitude, but you're imagining her coming back home, which usually causes kids of any age to regress some, and that you want to have a healthy, less stressful living situation. You guys putting your heads together: how can we address this because I'm starting to feel like I need to say more to you. How would that be, Susan?

Susan: Yes, I totally agree with that.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: But you're afraid of her shutting down.

Susan: Correct. I mean, she's like a butterfly. If she just—it takes nothing for me, and she emotionally evaporates into the shell.

Chris Williams: Well, part of that is I think you need to allow her to continue to do that. This sounds kind of strange, but because you can't control that. What happens is that her passive withdrawal process is a way of controlling behavior and relationship in the room. In meaning that you have a dynamic here: she's under-functioning, you're over-functioning, and in the middle of that is a lot of dysfunction.

So I do think that this may require some couples therapy, some mom-daughter therapy, just to talk because that provides a safe place and a safe third person to have the conversations and stick with the conversations. When I have families or couples in my room and one person starts shutting down, I'm able to then go in and help them grab a hold—I call it a trapdoor—and pull back up out of their trapdoor, keep it shut, and be able to have the emotional resiliency to work through something difficult.

Usually, typically underneath that, there is some sort of shame messaging that she is having about herself. Like, I believe that there is something inside of her that says along the lines of she doesn't have what it takes or that she's unworthy. So any pushback that she experiences trips that tripwire on that landmine inside of her, and that's how she reacts to it. That's where she could—now this is her world—but she could really use a lot of work and help in extracting those landmines from her life.

Because I know that what you've already told me about her is she's studious and responsible.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: She's the good girl. She has the ability to make life work for her really well. But she's highly sensitive and still in that stage of developing her sense of self—like who is she really? It's really fragile. So Susan, it's causing you to walk on eggshells around her, and like Chris said, you're trying to avoid her shutting down at all costs, and that is going to be impossible.

So I mean, you can even frontload conversations with: "I realize I'm in this situation where I don't want you to shut down and go away, so I avoid saying hard things to you. I don't know how we're going to navigate that living together because that's not going to work. So we have to learn together how to share what we're each feeling."

Chris Williams: Well, Jill, you have infinitely more experience on this. But I see over and over that the parent-child relationship requires renegotiation or a redefining of the relationship over and over again.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Over and over.

Chris Williams: And that's hard because what it was when they were under our roof as children and even as adolescents is not what it is as adults. Those are two different things, and both the child and the parent don't know it's two different things until they get it out into the open and start talking about it.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: And daughters do have an attitude with their moms. I lived through this with my own daughter. Part of that is because they have to identify with us, and they're trying so hard to differentiate from us that they can get kind of arrogant and act like they're the parent. That isn't healthy to allow them to continue in that, and it can very much feel like the relationship then becomes all on their terms.

Chris Williams: Jill, do you also find—I'm just curious on this—do you also find the other thing is I'm trying to separate and be myself and still want something from you? You know, like that's where I can see it can get really messy and confusing.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Yeah, yeah. And sometimes you really have to push through even though they're going to be angry or they're going to shut down, right? And push through to have a deeper conversation.

Chris Williams: I think that's really good.

Brian Perez: Susan, thanks for calling in today to New Life Live. We've got a book in the NewLife.com store called *Doing Life with Your Adult Children*, and we think that would be beneficial for you. We'll drop a link to it in the show notes there if you're watching us online. Thanks for calling in today.

Now we're going to go to Kelly in Salem, New Hampshire, who also listens to us on SiriusXM channel 131. Hey Kelly, how can we help you today?

Kelly: Hi, thanks so much for taking my call. While I was waiting, all that I listened to was very helpful, so thank you for your wisdom. I have a 42-year-old son who is currently now addicted to meth and alcohol. He has struggled with alcoholism for several years and is out of state now. But at several points, he came into our home. My husband is his stepfather, a wonderful stepfather. Basically, he just really abused and misused all the help he got and went off to Ohio and continued down the path.

So my question is, this last time he met a woman, girl, and she did meth. Despite he was honest about that, he picked up, but he lied about it, of course. Now he's addicted to meth. I've taken the calls, that kind of thing. I'm trying to find a balance because I'm eight years sober. So all his manipulation—my eyes are being opened to the lying and the manipulation. I feel kind of silly, but I'm a born-again Christian, staying in God's Word, but I'm confused, which God is not the author of.

In my own life, because of my own dysfunction, I'm either all or nothing, and I've got the ADD too. Anyways, he's such a trigger for me, and I'm sober; I don't have any desire to drink. But the thing is, in dealing with him, it's like I'm done; I can't do this anymore. So I'll block him, and then I feel bad about blocking him. And then I'm asking the Lord, we're called to love but not enable.

Because when he calls me from these recovery places, I've sent him basic need stuff. I'm like, Lord, he's still my son. But I also have made the mistake of giving him money, which I should know better. But I get all wrapped up in his manipulation, and he uses the past. So do I keep him blocked? Because here's the big thing. He told me this time around he's going to detox, but then as soon as he's out, he's going to be with her because he loves her and it's none of my business.

Chris Williams: Well, that's the thing. It's either your business or not your business, and so you make it not your business. Kelly, when it comes to enabling, codependency, all of these terms that we use in addiction and addiction recovery, we have to acknowledge the reality that one day giving him a gift card is enabling, and the next day it's him getting food. Because that's the chaotic decision-making of addiction itself. And it's not to say you don't or do love him. You love him in your heart; that is without question. We know that just by hearing you.

That love, though, how it shows up in practicality requires something very different. Because right now in the center of his addiction, probably now he's caught in the girlfriend; she is also his addiction.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Yeah, to a meth addict, which is an evil, evil drug.

Chris Williams: Yes, and so in relating to an addiction requires something different, and that's why boundaries are so critically important.

Brian Perez: So much more to say to you, Kelly. We'll say as much as we can when we come back from the break. We've got other callers as well. But thanks for calling in today to New Life Live. If you guys listen and watch and can pray for Kelly and her relationship with her son, we would appreciate it. We'll be back on New Life Live.

Voiceover: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: Let's go back to Kelly calling in from New Hampshire. What else would you guys offer to Kelly?

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Kelly, congratulations on your eight years, and praise God for that, and remarriage and how life has changed for you. It is so hard just being a mother watching this, but seeing your son go down this path as well. He has not made the choice yet to truly get help, and you know that there's a difference. You can see when they fake get help versus when the lightbulbs really go on and they know they have no other choice and they're doing it for themselves.

I think that Al-Anon would be an important thing for you at this point because you're an addict. But we were talking about how often you remove the addiction, and then you see the codependency that often leads to addiction. At the same time, we were also saying we don't want to pathologize motherhood because motherhood is about caring and wanting to do the best for your child.

So I think that, as Chris was saying earlier, it changes maybe week to week, month to month. First and foremost, you have to make sure you're solid and you're okay. So that's why getting in Al-Anon and you having your support and then seeing that your son isn't quite ready. So yes, you may have to cut off conversation with him. You may have to say: "When you're truly ready for the help, I'm here for you, but I'm not going to be sucked into the merry-go-round and the roller coaster."

Chris Williams: I find this line to be really helpful. It's just a principle, and the line is for yourself, and it's this: I will do anything to support your health and recovery. I will do nothing to support your destruction and addiction.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Make that kind of your mantra, the broken record. Because if you get sucked into the day-to-day happenings of the ups and downs and his stories and what he needs and, "Oh my gosh, he's going to be sleeping on the streets"—I mean, this is a 42-year-old man, Kelly. He has probably survived a lot more than you are even aware of.

Chris Williams: And I'm always shocked about how resourceful addiction can be.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: They're very resourceful. So and you know, he's right: if he wants to be with this woman, he can be with her. That is his choice. One final thing because this is about the protection of your heart: one of the things that a manipulator will do, an addictive manipulator will do, is they're going to leverage resentment and shame. They know how to pull that lever. So if he will come in and say, "Oh Mom, you didn't pick me up from the bus stop when I was six years old, so therefore," and that's kind of an extreme case, but just be very aware and be very protective of your heart around that sort of manipulation.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Yeah, when he throws anything back at you that you have done, you can bet it's a manipulation, weaponizing your experience against yourself.

Brian Perez: Kelly, thanks for your phone call today on New Life Live. We have an article that we reference often at NewLife.com. It's called *Helping Without Enabling*. We'll post a link to it in the show notes. Isaac in Los Angeles, listening on NewLife.com, welcome to the show. How can we help you today?

Isaac: Thank you for taking my call. My question is how can I pick the right lady to be with? I keep making the same mistakes over and over and over. It's very frustrating.

Chris Williams: Give me your type. What do all of these women have in common?

Isaac: Well, most of them are Christians like myself. Recently, last week, I was in the hospital for one night, and I called this lady that I've been dating for—I've been knowing her for over a year. She just kept calling and kept calling, even when I didn't call. She invited me to go on a cruise with her. At first, I said yes, but then the Holy Spirit said to me: "No, you're not married to her, so don't go on the cruise with her."

So I called her and canceled, and I told her, you know, I'm a man of God. I'm not ordained, but I am a minister; I minister to people a lot. I just can't do that. So when I was in the hospital last week and I said they're going to release me, I said: "Can you come and pick me up?" She said: "Sure." But then when I told her what time they were going to release me, she said: "Oh, I have a bingo game that I have to go to."

Brian Perez: You can't put me before bingo? I love it when our callers know the show so well that they know it's time to go to break. So we'll continue talking to Isaac when we come back here on New Life Live. He wants help in finding a woman who is not going to pick bingo over him. I think everybody wants that kind of relationship, and we'll continue to talk to Isaac and the other callers that we have on the screen in just a moment.

You are listening to New Life Live. I'm Brian Perez here with clinical psychologist Dr. Jill Hubbard and licensed marriage and family therapist Chris Williams. You can find out all about us on our website NewLife.com. You can follow us on social media including TikTok now, too. We'll be back on New Life Live.

Voiceover: Hello, it's Becky Brown. I am so excited to launch our 99 for the 1 partner initiative. Every day, we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression—all kinds of ways. It reminds us of the story in Luke 15 where the shepherd leaves the 99 to go rescue the one.

You know, we've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life, and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99 for the 1 is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE, 1-800-639-5433, or NewLife.com/9941.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: Let's go back to Isaac. What would you guys say to Isaac?

Chris Williams: Well, I think there's a lot here, Isaac. But Isaac was also finishing. Go ahead and finish your thought, Isaac. Sorry about that.

Isaac: Thank you for that. Yesterday I found out that this other young lady told her girlfriend I would really like to date Isaac, but he's so particular. It really bothered me because I said, Lord, I try to go by the Bible. I'm not perfect at all; I've got faults and shortcomings. I've been sober since basically since 2010. A lot of people call me when they're really hurting.

One lady put $250 in my account the other day because I was ministering to her and her boyfriend. Her boyfriend was so touched because he got attacked by one of the patients, and the patient bit him all over his body. There was blood everywhere; police had to come. His girlfriend said: "Isaac prayed so fervently for you." I do that because I love people. I love the Word of God. I love Jesus. But I just seem to not fit in anywhere, and I'm just so tired of it.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: So when people say you're so particular, what do you think that's about? I hear your heart for God, but I wonder maybe where that shows up in other places.

Isaac: Well, this particular lady said that because everything she was saying was negative. Over and over she was saying negative things, and I said: "Can you start talking positive sometimes?" It was so frustrating to hear her; every word that came out of her mouth was negative.

Chris Williams: Isaac, you said you're sober since 2010, is that right?

Isaac: Basically, yeah. I mean, a couple of times I did things like smoke cigarettes or even smoke marijuana, but basically since 2010 I've been sober.

Chris Williams: Now, have you been part of a recovery group at all?

Isaac: No, I just go to noonday prayer where we call at church, and that helped to minister. But since the pandemic, they cut it out.

Chris Williams: Well, because here's what I'm hearing, man. What I'm hearing is that you don't feel like you have a place to be you and belong in the world. One of the things you're doing to manage that pain, manage that experience, is you're looking to be right to be okay. I'm not talking about right as in better than anyone else. I'm talking about in a purely moral sense. If I behave good, then I'm okay. If I behave poorly, then I'm not okay or unacceptable.

My guess is that is something that was modeled or that you experienced previously in your life. The reason I ask about being part of a recovery group: one of the powers of the recovery group is that I can't show up with all my perfection and it work. I have to show up with my faults. Sin is my entrance fee. As a result, there's a much different result. That is because at the heart of heart, Isaac, I want you to be accepted for you.

I want you to be in relationships where you can experience your inherent value, your inherent worth as a human being. That you don't have to perform or be right for other people to accept you, especially in a romantic relationship. But I think the best way to find a different picker in your life is to have a different experience. I think that could happen in the recovery world for you.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: I think that would be really excellent, Isaac, for you. Because it's relational, it has boundaries. You learn how to fit in, in a sense, there, and they walk you through a structure that is Christian-based but is good for living and doing life. It's not about just, like you were saying, Chris, trying to get all the bad out and be all good.

I think even in how you responded to this woman who was being very negative: so she's sharing what her frustration, her feelings, her views—granted, a lot of negativity. Your response is: "Can't you say anything positive?" which probably was received as a dismissal of everything that she was sharing. Another approach might have been to say: "Wow, it sounds like there's a lot of things that are really upsetting you," or, "You've experienced a lot of hurt, and it's really affected how you see things. Tell me more."

When we meet people where they're at, when we move towards them instead of trying to correct them or get them to see the opposite view, they actually feel cared about and understood and heard. You know what? It has this amazing effect. It actually then will turn the negativity into positivity by doing that, by leaning into it. So you might think about: is there a fear that you have a hard time allowing people around you to be real and to be imperfect? What if you took our advice and you got involved in 12-step, and you allowed yourself to be imperfect and God to meet you there?

Chris Williams: One of the distinctions I make about the Pharisees is this: the Pharisees got it right, but they never got it good. They couldn't see the difference between those two things. Don't get me wrong, they're not opposites. Doing right is oftentimes doing good, but they didn't see the higher good in it. That's the trap that we get in of what we call the good-bad split. Behaving well, getting it right, means I'm okay.

Well, in God's relationship, God's economy, it's that we don't get it right, we're going to be okay, and He's going to get it good in us and work through us in process the rest of our life. But the foundation of that unconditional love is so important, and that's why, Isaac, I want you to be able to experience that first in non-sexual or non-romantic relationships. That's where recovery group can be really powerful.

Brian Perez: Isaac, we'll help you find a life recovery group. You're in the Los Angeles area. We have lots, so stay on the phone. We'll help you with that. Everyone else, you can go to NewLife.com to find out about our life recovery groups. Something else we offer a couple of times a year is Restore. It's a weekend intensive for ladies whose lives have been impacted by sexual betrayal.

As if betrayal itself isn't bad enough, then there's the legal, financial, social, physical, emotional, and mental toll that it takes on you. You feel pressured to figure everything out while you're still reeling from the pain and confusion you're experiencing. It's easy to get overwhelmed with the enormity of the situation. If you can relate, please join us at the next Restore healing after betrayal workshop beginning November 13th in Washington, D.C.

That's still a ways away, November, but it's always good to plan things out ahead of time. You can get all the details at NewLife.com. And if finances are an issue, please don't let that get in the way of your healing and restoration. Call us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE and ask about need-based scholarships. Let's talk to Patty in Chicago, who is listening to us on the New Life app. Hi there, Patty. Thanks for calling into New Life Live.

Patty: Hi, thank you for taking my call. I've been listening to New Life many years, even back to Minirth-Meier. I had counseling there for my life because of childhood sexual abuse. There was much damage in that, and they just helped me so much. But I'm calling about my estranged 59-year-old son and his family.

Due to political views and differences—and also, I am a Christian—I asked him to agree to disagree to be together as a family. He has nothing to do with me or the family. He has a sister and aunts and anybody that's against his political views or God views or church or whatever; he doesn't want to have anything to do with us. So he hasn't. He lives in the same town I do, and he doesn't talk to me or any of us.

Him and his whole family except for one—one of his sons. He's the one that comes around me and everything. My son says he wants to change me, that I am brainwashed. He wants me to not go to my church but to go to a different one even though he does not go to church.

He is extremely angry. He was brought up in an alcoholic home when he was young, and I was not a Christian and I was full of shame because of childhood sexual abuse. I had no opinion then. In 1979, I gave my life to God, and I'm learning about how God views me now. I have so much healing because of God, counseling, and groups. I examine myself all the time now to look at things I should change, but I'm not willing to change the things I know God wants me to do.

Brian Perez: We have to take a break. Patty, thanks for calling today to New Life Live. We'll continue our conversation with you here. Thank you so much for calling and thank you for being a long-time listener. We love hearing from our long-time listeners, our first-time listeners, and when you guys refer your friends to us and they call in, it's always a blessing. So thank you so much for your partnership and for your support. We'll be back on New Life Live.

Voiceover: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: Are you still with us, Patty?

Patty: Yes.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: So Patty, wow, I'm so sorry. I just hate this whole estrangement epidemic. It just makes no sense, and it is not the road to health. It doesn't teach us how to resolve conflict. I think, though, in what you described, probably your son growing up has a lot of hurt. Alcoholic home, you said you didn't have a voice because of your abuse growing up. So your son's 59 now. I wonder if you guys have talked about childhood.

Instead of focusing on differences now—and he's kind of erecting those and has a rigidity—it's like he can't trust you unless he remakes you into his image of what feels safe to him. People that feel highly threatened become very rigid and don't have that flexibility. I heard that he's not talking to you, but I wonder, could you write him a letter? And say: "I know that you are angry from your childhood. I have learned so much as I've gotten older, and I would do so many things different. I really want to hear what it was like for you growing up. I understand currently you're really not wanting to talk, and I'm wondering if we could just write to each other." Start with something really small that you think that he might go for. "Could we write to each other? I really want to hear what life was like for you and the hurt and anger that it caused in you."

Patty: The only thing I did is I went to him and I said I confessed to my part. I said: "I'm so sorry what I did, but I was just sick in life's dust." And he said he forgave me. But that's when he was like 16, 17 years of age, I think it was when I did that.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Okay, so you got along really good for many years until the political stuff started, and then that's when he really came against me. Even thinking things that's not true. He thought I made him go to church—I did not. He wanted to go, and he was serving God, and then he got out of it and he blamed me. But I mean, so I thought, well, that's what he believes and that's whatever, but I did not make him go. He wanted to go.

Well, and correcting that initially may not be as important as hearing him. "I'm sorry you felt like you were made to go." And there may be a lot of rewriting history now through the political stuff.

Chris Williams: I think there's a lot of that. I want to be careful—this is the representation of Chris Williams alone and no one else—but I've just seen it over and over, especially in estrangement and relational divide. The political environment has created a binary of fear, threat, and resentment. That binary is dividing people against each other, and I believe it's dividing people against themselves.

And we can definitively say it's not producing relational health. That's what I'm about. That's why I'm calling it out because I'm about producing relational health. Relational health here looks like what is underneath the surface. Is there some level of common ground that we can find? Maybe we can set boundaries around political conversations because our points of view are so different, but what can we share in common? What can we rally around that we see?

But it may be—and I just want to propose this out there because I see it all the time—that your son's imagination, heart, and mind have been hijacked by a political point of view and anything—

Dr. Jill Hubbard: And an anti-Christian, right? Because he's rejecting—

Chris Williams: Well, and it could go either way. As far as: "Only this point of view is Christian," or, "Only this point of view is Christian or is right or is the way to see things." Therefore, it creates this sort of rigidity, as you said, this wall around this that anything that doesn't fit in this very, very narrow perspective is now evil, wrong, and is a threat. We're not designed to thrive in that place. We're not designed to thrive under that sort of pressure and perspective in life, and it certainly doesn't open us up to God's love.

I only mention that not as a soapbox but as an awareness that Patty, I think you need to pray for him, pray for his heart, pray for his perspective. Not in a condescending way at all, but in a lifting-up sort of way that he can see beyond what maybe his current field of view is and then look for any common ground whatsoever.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Well, and even to say: "I think the current climate has stirred up a lot of stuff from the past." Right? And I'm wondering if you're reflecting on the growing-up years. We had a conversation when you were 16, but there's been a lot of years since then. Could we revisit? How are you feeling now about your growing-up years?

Chris Williams: And this goes back to if we hold a particular point of view, that we represent everyone who is in that point of view. This is what breaks my heart: it lacks proximity. It lacks intimacy. No, I may have a point of view, but I'm not representative of everyone who has that view. But get to know me as a human being, as a person. I want to get to know you as a human being and as a person. Again, that proximity, closeness, intimacy that really matters, and I just find that the best way to do that is to try to find a meaningful common ground. Like, what is important to you? "Oh yeah, that's also important to me."

Dr. Jill Hubbard: I would even say, "I'm open to hearing your points of view." Right? That doesn't mean you have to agree with him, Patty, but instead of defending how you think, just say, "Well, tell me more. How did you come to that? What led you there? Why do you think that's important?" and really give him the platform to say it all out loud.

Chris Williams: I wish people can come in and watch me get a haircut from my barber. We have very different political views and we absolutely adore each other. I mean, his name's Brian—much like you, Brian. Brian's Barbershop in Brea, right? So go find him, he's awesome.

But we'll argue, and we'll have different points of view, but we'll also share our lives. There's just this deep bond that we have with each other; we care for each other. We only see each other once a month, but in that 45-minute span once a month, you can see two people who have really quite different differing points of view politically get along, have fun, joke around, and still be able to work it out. Because we're always bringing up an issue, and then we're arguing, and we love it, and it's not a threat. The bottom line is this: we care for each other as human beings.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: The caring comes first. Everything else is secondary.

Brian Perez: Patty, thanks for calling today to New Life Live. And remember, it is thanks to your financial support that we are able to provide help to people who call in with estrangement issues or infidelity—whatever the issue is. It's because of our listeners who contribute to New Life Live, either a one-time gift or a monthly gift by being a 99 for the 1 partner.

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Voiceover: Thank you so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to NewLife.com to find out more information. And thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing, and we're so glad that you're here.