New Life LIVE

Narrator: Welcome to the New Life Live Podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: Happy Earth Day and happy new birth day. This could be the start of the best life you've ever had. I'm your host, Brian Perez, in the studio for two hours today on New Life Live. If you feel like you've tried everything and nothing seems to help, call us at 1-800-229-3000 for a plan to help you move forward. There's always something you can do, always.

I'm joined today by clinical psychologist Dr. Alice Benton and doctor of marriage and family therapy Sherri Denham-Keffer, who's got a thing or two to get us going. How are you doing, Sherri?

Dr. Sherri Denham-Keffer: Well, hey. Well, you know what, gang? I actually thought I would do show and tell today. Yeah, so those of you that are watching, which is nice because you guys can watch us as well as listen. But I'm going to do my best to explain this. So this is my Trauma-berg.

What's a Trauma-berg? A Trauma-berg is an explanation for how we hold trauma in our mind, in our heart, in our body, and the lies that get wired in at the impact of what happens to us. So at the very bottom, like down in the bottom of the sea, are basically life-altering, painful events that happen.

Now, these can be either wounds of omission or wounds of commission. What are those things? Well, wounds of omission are the good things you needed but never got. That's like being delighted in, being seen, being heard, knowing that you have potential, and just having somebody notice you and honor you for that.

Wounds of commission are the things that happened to us that should never happen to anybody. That's the physical abuse, the sexual abuse, the psychological abuse, all of that. Now, what does those—when those things happen, what happens to us? Well, we then have attachment styles.

We decide how safe other people are or not, and that's how we move into these attachment styles. Now, all the book we have, "How We Love" by Milan and Kay Yerkovich, this does a really great example of explaining that. Now, what happens above that? Right before the waterline are those trauma-induced shame beliefs.

Those are the negative beliefs that the Apostle Paul was the first mind coach, and he's like, "Hey, just want you to know it matters what you think." But those are beliefs like I'm not lovable, I'm not in control, I'm not enough, I'm powerless, I'm helpless, I can't trust anyone, I'm shameful, like I'm irredeemable.

And then that is all going on below the waterline. What we see in each other and observe in each other are what's on the iceberg. What are those behaviors? So this is when we see control, caretaking, dependency, guilt, low self-esteem, poor boundaries, powerlessness, perfectionism, shame, excessive responsibility.

Like, we see that in ourselves. We might observe it in others, even family members or our partners. We see all this stuff going on, but we don't understand that it started under the water. It started back in our origin. And this is what untreated relationship trauma looks like.

So that's why we're here at New Life. We want to be with you on the phone. If you just heard something I said and you're like, "Hey, she kind of called out a couple of things I've been struggling with," then call in right now because Dr. Alice, Brian, and myself, we would love to care for you and help to unravel the mystery of what's under the waterline and how you can heal.

Brian Perez: Someone told me recently, "We don't have to talk about the past anymore, right? We can be done with that." And we want to be done. But in order to move on in a healed state, we usually do need to tell some of those stories in a safe place with a person that can help us.

Dr. Sherri Denham-Keffer: When the past is leaking into the present, it's not in the past. It's still in the present. We'll be back.

Narrator: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now, back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: Hope you had a chance to listen to New Life Live yesterday. If not, it's archived on the New Life app, website, and our YouTube channel. We helped a man in Canada facing a tough situation with his son because his friend told him to call us. So please encourage your friends and family to call us, or you can even call for your friend.

The number is 1-800-229-3000. And today, we're going to be in the studio for two hours. Now, speaking of Canada, here is Chris, who listens to us on newlife.com. Welcome, Chris, to New Life Live.

Chris: Hello. Thanks for taking my call. I have a question for you guys today. Just want to give you a bit of a background. So I start going out with a guy from my church, and he told me he's interested in asking me to be his girlfriend.

But I've been struggling with fantasizing and lust and masturbation for about six years. I have been actively working on overcoming and being free for the last three to four or so. I have an accountability partner. I found a therapist, and I'm in a purity group, which I also lead every two weeks.

So I've definitely seen improvement with my addictive behavior, but I still struggle and I have slip-ups sometimes. So I feel torn because I'm scared, like, can I really love someone if I also struggle with lust? And so my question is kind of like, do you guys consider—is it okay for me to consider entering a relationship as I'm actively seeking healing?

And if not, like, what else can I do to seek for healing? Like, I feel like I'm doing the best I can, but often feel discouraged because I still have setbacks, and then that kind of makes me be in this position of should I even be considering someone? Is it okay for me? I don't know. I have a hard time.

Brian Perez: Chris, can we praise you first and applaud you? Wow, your honesty, your humility, all the work you're obviously doing for years. You listed off the basic things we ask people to do who struggle with lust. But it's so hard to get into the practice and stay there. And then you're being cautious to not put yourself and this young man that you might date into a difficult position. So your head is on straight, and I'm just so proud of how you're handling this.

Chris: Thank you. I have gone on a few dates with him, so we've talked a bit. Like, I haven't fully opened up to him like everything I struggle with, but I did tell him purity is sometimes hard for me. And he shared a bit of his past, and he told me it has been hard for him as well. But we haven't—that was about the extent of the conversation. We didn't really go into it at all, but yeah.

Brian Perez: And Chris, through all this good work you've done, have you been able to identify what in your past might have made you vulnerable for this temptation?

Chris: I think a lot of loneliness. And then my dad was a sex addict and still struggles. And so I've kind of grown up listening to New Life Live, and like my mom—and I feel like that kind of set me up in a way when I reached a point in my life where I was really lonely. And I'd always fantasized since I was a little girl, and then suddenly I found out like masturbating and I was like, "Oh, what's this?" And then I kind of fell in, and then I was just there. Next thing I knew.

Brian Perez: I have heard that sort of story over and over again, that discovering sexual pleasure is an obvious way for a child to handle an environment that's hurtful, painful, and out of their control. That is so understandable. When you told this young man about your struggle and he shared his as well, he seemed to want to continue in the relationship. Is that right?

Chris: Yeah. He didn't flinch at all. He said, "I have bypassed and things that I've struggled with." And he was like, "I want to do better." But like I said, that was about the extent of the conversation. We didn't really go deep into that.

Dr. Alice Benton: Thank you, Chris, for being so honest. And I have a couple more questions. One of the things that I do—so I'm a certified sex addiction therapist. So I am so curious about your heart and your history as well. I'm glad Alice asked you that question. When I'm doing deep work with people, I actually begin to listen to the fantasy and begin to wonder about something called an arousal template.

So what is an arousal template? An arousal template is something that gets developed because it has to do with what you were longing for. So I imagine as part of your fantasy that you look at pornography. Is that correct?

Chris: I have actually never looked at pornography. It's not—I think I tried when I was younger, but no.

Dr. Alice Benton: Do you read romance novels? Where are you getting your information? Is it all in your mind?

Chris: It's just from myself, which is one of my worst battles because I feel like it's just me against me, and I'm like, "I don't know what else to do. I don't know what else to do."

Dr. Alice Benton: No, it's not you against you. So the fantasy that you're creating in your mind that moves you to that place of wanting comfort—so when we grow up, and again, you grew up with a dad who's a sex addict. Just because we grow up with a parent who's a sex addict doesn't mean that we have to struggle with an addiction. So what I'm really curious about is what's the longing? What is the fantasy about? You don't have to go into the sexual stuff, but I just want to ask you, like, what's the movie in your mind that you're creating?

Chris: I feel like for me—I've worked through this a bit with my counselor similarly. I think it's just being wanted, being desirable to someone for me. And feeling that power is just something that really pulls me in that I really want.

Dr. Alice Benton: So power over what?

Chris: I feel in control, like I have control over the person. Like I can make them do what I want or something like that.

Dr. Alice Benton: Yeah, you're so clear. Just like Dr. Alice said. So remember when I opened the show today, I was talking about the negative beliefs that get wired in at the events in our lives. And so what I'm hearing is you had this life-altering event that happened with your dad being a sex addict. Now, in your home, how did you find out about his sex addiction?

Chris: My mom, kind of—I feel like she didn't have anyone else to go to, and she would tell me and my sister a lot of stuff my dad did. And I was little. I was like thirteen. And so we always knew what dad was up to. Not maybe everything, but like a lot. He had an affair and all these things, and it was just a lot.

Dr. Alice Benton: So my dear, you're thirteen. You're just in that place where your hormones are starting to come online, and your mom is telling you this sexual material when most thirteen-year-olds would be, I don't know, hanging out with their girlfriends, going to silly comedy movies, or going to junior high dances and kind of wondering like, "Boys are kind of cute, but I don't know. Boys are kind of weird." Like, you're in that tweener stage. But your mom was giving you this highly charged sexual information. Did you feel like you were in control at that point?

Chris: No, not at all.

Dr. Alice Benton: Okay. So your brain, no fault of your own, your brain wired in a negative belief that sounds like this: I'm not in control. And so your fantasy is I want to be able to be in control over someone so that I can have power over them. Do you know how powerless and helpless you felt at thirteen?

Chris: Yeah, just nothing.

Dr. Alice Benton: Yeah. Way powerless over your dad and his sexual acting out and way powerless over your mom, who is giving you information she should have been taking to a counselor, to her friends. But she put you into a peer role. She wasn't protecting you and your sister. She was using you as her teddy bear because she was hurting. So you felt the need to take care of mom, and you felt out of control with what was going on with your dad.

It's no wonder, my dear, your fantasy—and I'm so proud of you that you haven't gone to porn. I can't even tell you how proud of you I am. But it's the story. It's in your mind. And I honestly, if I was working with you, I would probably do some EMDR, eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. And what I would do, I would target two things.

I would target the helplessness and that I'm not in control that you felt over your dad as a sex addict and in acting out. And then I would target what happened with your mom, which is a trauma, your mom using you for her comfort. Those are two violations. What's it like to hear that?

Chris: I never thought of it that way at all. That sounds really wild.

Dr. Alice Benton: Isn't it? That's how, right? With the Trauma-berg, we're listening—you called in and you're so brave, and we're listening to the behaviors that are on the iceberg. What is she doing? Well, she's fantasizing, lusting, masturbating. But as we did a deeper dive, we found out about your arousal template. We found out about your dad and your mom. And it was unsafe for you to just be a thirteen-year-old.

And so there's a book that I think you'll probably love. It's called "A Light in the Dark: The Hidden Legacy of Adult Children of Sex Addicts." And it's by Dr. Ken Adams and Mary Meyer and looks like Corley Gorde. There's three authors. But Dr. Ken Adams does a lot of work with kids of sex addicts. It might be some really great revelatory work.

But you know what the opposite of I'm not in control is? What do you think it is?

Chris: Well, I am fully in control, I guess.

Dr. Alice Benton: So what it is, is it's I'm now in control. Meaning this moment. That's all that we have. I'm now in control. Control's kind of an illusion. I came in today to the studio and I was sitting here and I had my little teacup, and Alice had hers, and I switched places. She doesn't know. I switched places. But I picked up her tea and started drinking it. She came in, she's like, "Isn't this your little fruity tea?" And I'm like, "No, I like yours better." So she was not in control of her own cup.

It changes on a dime. And so in the twelve-step process, it's all about the next moment, right? But underneath that is some trauma for you to unravel with an EMDR specialist who you can work in tandem with your therapist and get somebody who I think would be a CSAT, a certified sex addiction therapist who also does EMDR. I think you can get this, girl. I know you called asking about should I date. And I want you to heal. I want to help you find how to unhook from the trauma that's still got you hooked, sweet one.

Brian Perez: Chris, thanks for calling in. We've got to take a break, but Alice might have something else that she wants to say when we come back here on New Life Live.

Narrator: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now, back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: We're talking to Chris in Canada, who phoned us at 1-800-229-3000. George, we see you. You're going to be next. I wanted to see if Dr. Alice had anything else for Chris. And then I wanted to chime in as big brother, but go ahead, you first.

Dr. Alice Benton: Chris, I would encourage you to ask your treatment team if you are ready to continue going on dates. They know you, and they see the work that you're doing. And so get their opinion about that because your hesitation and maybe it's anxiety, it could be a slow-down message: don't jump into dating yet. Or it could just be a healthy caution, and I'm not sure which one it is.

But prayerfully consider it with your team. And if you do decide to continue dating, I would say have an experimental attitude about it, that you're trying it out. But if you find that the lusting temptation just erupts beyond a level that you can manage, then that's a good sign that it's too soon.

To protect yourself and this man, then you should probably back off for a period of time. I do think it's important to let him know a little bit more, at least some headlines, especially so that if you take an experimental approach, he can be in agreement with that. And because he bravely shared that he's struggled with purity issues, having an accountability partner for him that he should set up will also help safeguard your decision if you continue dating each other.

Brian Perez: We have a Healing is a Choice course that's beginning online the first week of May. So I think this would be ideal for you, Chris. We can't always control what happens to us, but we can choose how we respond. Healing is a Choice is an online course that we offer. It's led by a therapist, and in it, you'll be guided step-by-step through twelve powerful weeks of insight, scripture, and support.

Whether your wounds come from loss, betrayal, trauma, or disappointment, this course will help you begin again with God and with yourself. Meeting one hour a week, you'll receive weekly live sessions led by experienced professionals, a guided workbook to support personal reflection and growth, small group community for encouragement, connection, and accountability, and a clear Christ-centered path toward healing and lasting transformation.

You cannot change the past, but you can choose to heal. Healing is a Choice. Find out more at newlife.com or by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE. So as Chris's big brother, I'm thinking, hang on. You're telling this guy, a potential suitor, that you struggle with lust and things like that. That might play into his mind where he's like, "Oh, I'm going after this one." You know what I mean? I hate to think that way. But I've been a guy for a long time, and I know how guys think, that it's going to be—I hope not that he would want to take advantage of Chris. But I don't know. What would you guys say?

Dr. Sherri Denham-Keffer: I think you're onto something. I think because what could happen is as a couple, this could be a setup for a reenactment. Like he struggles, right? He struggles with lust, and so it might be that she becomes the source for him of his lust, and she starts reenacting her desire to fix dad, trying to fix him in his struggle with whatever acting out.

So it could actually work as a negative cycle with both of them. And I have couples that come in and that's what's happened is they found each other, but they found each other because they both had a sexual woundedness, and they unconsciously thought, "Hey, we can fix it right together." But it ends up just reenacting something that happened early on.

So to protect against that, making sure that you have a full disclosure agreement with your treatment team and don't start hiding aspects to your dating. Because when we get into the darkness and the secrecy, that's when we really get into trouble. So Chris, what do you think of everything we've said?

Chris: Wow, it's a lot, and I'm so thankful for everything that you guys have shared. I appreciate the advice so much, and I think it gives me good pointers as to how I can move forward. This is my first relationship. I've never dated before. So it's new and scary and exciting.

And with him, I know he has—I do have a hard time with not being physical. And so he has actually been one to kind of sometimes stop me and be like, "Hey, we're not going to do that." So I've really appreciated him for that. He's not perfect. I think we definitely have boundaries that we need to set, but we haven't had that conversation yet. So something that we are definitely going to have to talk about.

Dr. Sherri Denham-Keffer: It sounds like his pause is touching on something you didn't get when you were growing up, which is protection. Like your longing for protection, your longing for nurture. And you called us because you're longing for guidance. Those are really three critical things that you didn't have. And we're so for you. Proud of you. Glad you're doing your work, my dear.

Brian Perez: Chris, thanks for calling in to New Life Live at 1-800-229-3000. Says you're watching us or listening, not sure which, online at newlife.com. If you're not watching, I suggest you go back afterwards and watch the episode because you'll see the show and tell that Sherri held up about the iceberg and how she calls it the Trauma-berg. Check that out so that you can get a visual for what it is that she was talking about. But thank you so much for calling in and everybody watching and listening, keep Chris in your prayers and her potential boyfriend, that everything will go well with that. 1-800-229-3000. We will be right back on New Life Live.

Becky Brown: Hello, I'm Becky Brown, and I am so excited to launch our 99 For the One partner initiative. Every day, we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression, all kinds of ways. And it reminds us of the story in Luke 15, where the shepherd leaves the 99 to go rescue the one.

And you know, we've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life. And we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99 For the One is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE, 1-800-639-5433, or newlife.com/99for1.

Narrator: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now, back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: When you give to New Life, you're helping people connect to Christ-centered help. For some, like this listener, the radio program is what makes a difference. Here's what Lisa shared: "I've been listening to New Life for years and donating when I can because they are top-notch Christians who've proved that modern psychology and Christianity do have a real place together. You have helped me so much."

Well, thank you for being the reason someone finds hope, healing, and a brand new start. You can give online at newlife.com or by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE or by texting NLM to 28950. You can also learn more about our monthly recurring givers called 99 For the One partners, and to become one of these faithful givers, visit newlife.com/99for1.

Here's George in Canton, Ohio, who listens to us on Sirius XM, Channel 131. Hi, George. Welcome to New Life Live.

George: Hey guys. The previous caller, Miss Chris, kind of—I don't know, I felt something that I've been trying to deal with for a while, and I keep getting the same direction, but I felt like it was just something I'm battling as well. But I am married. So I'm—I've tried calling other churches and counselors from other cities and counties because I didn't want them to know where me and my wife got married in church and I don't want it to fall back on us.

But I got somewhat of a similar issue. I gave up everything for the Lord. Me and my wife, we didn't do anything sexual or anything at all because I have it bad. You know, I guess I'm a typical guy. I suffer from it greatly. But I gave it up for the Lord. I quit porn and everything for years, and I finally got my wife. And my wife is the most beautiful woman I've ever seen. Like, there's—I couldn't watch porn if I wanted to because there's not a more beautiful woman, and I don't say that to be nice.

I truly mean the Lord gave me the most beautiful woman on earth. But we never talked about a lot coming into our relationship. She's everything you would want in a wife, besides she has no libido, none, ever, none, zero at all. And I don't know what to do. Like I've said, every time I've talked to other counselors or other preachers and pastors from other churches, they just say the same thing: love your wife like the Lord loves the church.

Sacrifice. And it's hard not to break down. Sorry. But you know, I don't see an endgame in this. We can be as happy and like I said, she can be my best friend. But the whole time I'm next to her, I just have these urges for her. And it's not like she doesn't want them. She just doesn't have a libido. She just doesn't think of it.

So when I'm thinking of it all day, every day, she literally never, ever thinks about it. And every now and again, she'll give in and she'll just lay down and let me do my act, but I don't want that. I want her to want it from me. I want her to chase me, to be flirty, to send me pictures, but she has nothing. And I feel like, the more I start to realize it, you know, I'm very independent, I'm very successful.

The Lord blessed me with a great job, and I think I only really got married so I could have sex without sinning. And now that I have, you know, I can get everything out of my wife that I could get with a friend or with family. I just—and I just don't know what to do. I would never leave her, and I honor my covenant with the Lord and being one flesh.

But like I said, in our happiest moments, it ruins everything just because in the back of my mind, it's like there's this little guy talking like, "Yeah, but she just doesn't look at you like that. She's never going to want you. She's never going to initiate nothing." And she never has. We're going on our third year of marriage, and she has never once initiated nothing once.

She doesn't like any foreplay. She's—and I don't blame her. She just thinks it's gross, and I don't ask of that, but I just want her to want me, want her some sort of desire. And it has never, ever in two and a half years happened. And I'm just mentally, like, it's so hard being happy with her at all, like in any moment. We could win the lottery and just go buy Lamborghinis or go on a family trip together, and I won't be happy because she doesn't look at me like that. And I don't know what to do.

Dr. Alice Benton: George, you chose faithfulness to God and to your future marriage, so you sacrificed in order to try to do this the right way. So what heartbreak and probably anger and resentment over the years, bitterness.

George: I have a lot. I've learned bitterness and resentment is overwhelming. And as soon as—and I'll fight it, and I'll give everything my wife needs and I'll fake it. But then, you know, I can't help it. It's like when you watch nature and animals, it's just—it's naturally in me and it just overcomes the Holy—sorry about breaking down, because I know I'm wrong, and I know it's just a feeling.

But I constantly just catch myself just being mad at her and just being mean towards her, and not abusive or anything, but I'm not giving her what she needs and wants because I don't get what I want. And I cannot control my selfishness and my self-righteousness, and I don't know what to do.

Dr. Alice Benton: Yeah, you're so tired. You're so, so tired.

George: I beg God to take it from me. I truly beg God to take the arousal from me, the lust from me, but it's not—I don't know what to do.

Dr. Alice Benton: So was she married before she married you?

George: No. Nope. I'm her—she has had a child before me, but they were never married. They dated. It was an accident.

Dr. Alice Benton: Okay. So she had a child. She's been sexual with someone else. How old is she, and how old are you?

George: She just turned thirty-two, and I'm about to turn thirty-six.

Dr. Alice Benton: Okay. So she had a child out of wedlock. When you used the word "gross" for her to think sexual stuff is gross, do you think that's a normal word for a person?

George: No, because every woman I dated before her was the exact opposite. It was where I couldn't keep up with my girlfriend, where I felt like I was inadequate.

Dr. Alice Benton: Yeah. So when somebody uses the word "gross," you know what I start wondering about? Early trauma, and maybe even early sexual trauma. Do you know when a woman is shut down to the point that you're talking about, hypo-sexual, like turtling in—I talk about that in my book, "Sexual Shame"—we turtle in.

There's a reason. Like I started today with talking about the Trauma-berg, right? And so based on what you've told me, George, I'm going under the water deep, deep, deep. And I'm wondering what happened to her. I'm wondering her sexual history, when sexuality became gross.

Now, it could have been—I don't know how old she was when she became a mom, but I've worked with women that there was rape, I've worked with women that there was sexual abuse in their history, I've worked with women that were objectified and used. And so there's something there, George.

I want you to know, it's not about you. You feel it like it's you. I'm like, George, she could have married any amazing man like you, and she would be this shut down because there's some trauma there that hasn't been excavated. And until that gets excavated, you all are going to be stuck. What's your thought?

George: I hate seeing her so upset. I hate—she sometimes—I know she feels like she's not good enough or she's not—she always falls down, and she's so submissive like that, and it kills me inside that she thinks that way. And like I said, I beg God to take the desire and lust from me so she doesn't feel inadequate.

Dr. Sherri Denham-Keffer: George, you're targeting the wrong person. Your desires are okay. What's happening is something has happened to your wife. There needs to be some deeper work. The spiritual counsel you've gotten is falling flat. It's not getting to the wound. People are talking about it in a superficial way.

You guys need some deep intensive work. And if I was working with her as a trauma therapist and someone who is in the world of sexual addiction, hypo-sexual people, people that struggle with sexual issues, whether they're shut down or they're acting out, someone's got to get in and help to unveil what is there, what's holding her back.

Dr. Alice Benton: George, even if you've done this before, invite her again to enter into therapy with you. And you might say, "I know my anger hurts our intimacy, and I know that you're suffering too with our disconnect. Can we get help?" And you started off, George, by saying you can't really call people in your town because you're worried that people will know.

George, we have a network of counselors all over the United States. We can connect you with someone. There is privacy legally protected in entering into treatment, and so we can help you do that in a way that protects your information, protects your privacy. Let us connect you.

Brian Perez: Yeah, and we'd also encourage the Intimacy in Marriage weekend intensive for you and your wife. The next one is coming up July 24th in Washington, D.C. You can find out the details about that online at newlife.com/iim, or you can call us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE and we'll get you that information.

Dr. Alice Benton: I just want to appeal to all the women that are suffering similarly. Please don't let it stay quiet. Reach out to us. We can help you as well because you're held back from the beauty of what your marriage could be. We can help you get there.

Brian Perez: Yep, we'll be here for the rest of this hour and all of next. 1-800-229-3000.

Narrator: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now, back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: Congratulations to everyone who has found a great deal or two in the New Life store moving sale. Lots of great items there. Some are just a buck or two, and once they're gone, they're gone. So get something for yourself or do some shopping for the summer holiday season—you know, Mother's Day, Father's Day, graduation. Click the moving sale banner in the store at newlife.com.

1-800-229-3000 is the number to call us for the rest of this hour and all of next. Jill and Mary, I see you there. But right now, we're going to go to Ruth, who is calling in from Fairfax, Virginia, listening on WAVA. Hi, Ruth. Thanks for calling 1-800-229-3000.

Ruth: Thank you for calling me. I have a son who is thirty-six, and he wants to kill himself, and it's getting worse. He said it to me for the first time at Christmas time, and he keeps saying it every time I see him. He lives alone with a roommate. They don't talk much because they're both working, I guess.

And he lost his father about fourteen years ago. He died. And ever since his father died, he has become a different person. He's very hateful towards me. He calls me names. He doesn't want to be with me. He says, "You were not a good mother. I don't want to talk to you. It doesn't make me feel good. I want to stay away from you" and everything.

I have two other kids, and he doesn't talk to them much, but he talks to his sister more than his other brother. But lately, I saw him a couple of days ago. He came to my house, and I invited him to help me with some stuff. And he looks like his house was caught on fire. So he doesn't take care of himself. He looks—his hair is a mess. He doesn't dress nice.

He doesn't go out a lot. He claims he doesn't have people to talk to. I don't think he believes in God. I don't think he goes to church, but he tells me he does and he says there is nobody young in the church I go to. It's all old people.

Brian Perez: So what's your main question for us, Ruth? How can we help you today?

Ruth: I don't know how to help him. I don't want him to kill himself because I love him. He's my son, and I'm seventy-nine years old now. So I was hoping that my children would spend more time with me, but they don't.

Dr. Alice Benton: Oh, Ruth, you must be hurting so much, watching him, worried for him. But he's also mistreating you. And yet he still does come over, but he mistreats you most times that he's over. I'm just so sorry for the pain that you're going through with him.

As you point out how disheveled he is, that makes me wonder about substance use that he might be involved in, about a serious mental illness. Of course, with so much suicidality, we think about depression, but that's not the only diagnosis. There could be something else going on with him.

And so because he—it sounds like he would be unwilling to get help, but he does say he has no one to talk to. So I'd have you at least reach out to let him know that you will help connect him with a counselor by connecting him with us. Let's at least make that attempt and see if he would receive it.

But I'd be braced that he'll probably reject it. If he does, you might call Adult Protective Services because a social worker could go to his home and do an evaluation of his situation. He may be decompensating in a way that he can no longer care for himself and for his hygiene. And so if he's not able to care for himself, Adult Protective Services could get him connected with the right level of care, even if he is declining treatment.

Dr. Sherri Denham-Keffer: That was so good, Alice. I too believe he's gravely disabled. I think he's really struggling with something. And when someone starts saying that they don't want to live—I mean, think about it. He was twenty-two, Ruth, when his dad died. He lost that significant male. And loss can cause depression.

He might have been not processing any of his pain for the last decade and a half. That's a long time to be hurting. And I get it, Ruth. I'm really curious about what is going on with you that none of your kids really want to come around. That's curious to me.

If I was to spend some time with you, I would probably be mining your heart and exploring issues like this. I would wonder if there's a part of you that has over the years tried to fix your kids in love—like love equals fixing them—or maybe if you've tried to—and you know, knowing that you've probably grown up in a situation where you weren't comforted—that's my hunch, is you didn't get comfort from your mom or your parents.

And so it's hard to give what we didn't get. And in that, love can feel more like worry or criticism where honestly, he just needs love. He needs to be seen. In my Trauma-berg, I talked about wounds of omission and wounds of commission. Wounds of omission are not being delighted in, not being seen, not being heard.

I know you love him because he's your son, but he doesn't feel known by you. I don't think he feels known by anyone, maybe his sister. But so he is alone. And that could be a precursor for him feeling like I just don't want to live anymore. My brother killed himself five years ago, and there were signs that he said before that he didn't want to live. And so anytime someone's suicidal and they look disheveled, like he does, I would really want to take that seriously and make sure that he gets help.

Dr. Alice Benton: Ruth, we'd like you to be able to tell your son that you're getting help so that you can better understand your part in his suffering. So let us connect you with an individual therapist for you.

Dr. Sherri Denham-Keffer: That's a great, great recommendation, Dr. Alice.

Dr. Alice Benton: And then you might tell your son, "I want to hear one way that I have hurt you, and I can listen as long as neither of us is yelling or calling names. I want to be a listener to you." And if that's too intimidating to do right now, Ruth, then that therapist we connect you with can help you prepare for becoming a listener to your son's pain. But that doesn't mean you should allow abuse, and it's okay to say, "If you're yelling, if you're name-calling, I've got to hang up the phone. I've got to walk away. I've got to ask you to leave. You're welcome to come back when we can talk to each other in a respectful tone of voice."

Brian Perez: Thank you for calling us today, Ruth, on New Life Live. There's an article on newlife.com called "What to Do When Someone is Suicidal." We're going to put a link to it in the show notes there. In case you know someone who is struggling with suicidal thinking, you can also give them the 988 crisis number for suicide, the mental health hotline. It's like 911, but it's 988. So that would be something to have handy for anyone you know.

And we continue to help hurting, struggling people. We've done this for almost forty years now. We want to do it for forty more plus. And if you're out there right now and you're struggling with something, we're going to be in the studio for another hour because we know there are lots of people—maybe you, maybe a loved one who are hurting. Maybe they don't want to call in. You can call in for them.

1-800-229-3000 is the number to call. Jill and Mary and everyone else calling in, we'll get to you in just a little bit. And we've still got more open lines. So we hope to hear from you as well. For Dr. Alice Benton and Dr. Sherri Denham-Keffer, I'm Brian Perez. Thanks for watching and listening to New Life Live.

Narrator: Thanks so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember, we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to newlife.com to find out more information. And thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing, and we're so glad that you're here.