New Life LIVE

Brian Perez: Welcome to another exciting and brand-new episode of New Life LIVE. That's right, we're New Life LIVE, not New Life Rerun. We're going to be in the studio for the next two hours at 1-800-229-3000. I'm your host, Brian Perez.

Lots of great advice and wisdom coming to us today from licensed marriage and family therapist, Chris Williams, and clinical psychologist, Dr. Jill Hubbard. Jill, what's on your mind to start us off?

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Hey guys. What's up? Okay, well, this may seem kind of random, but I was thinking about, do cats suffer?

Chris Williams: That is random.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: That is random. So, one morning as I am waking up and I am petting my cats on demand, who are all around me, looking at them, I'm wondering, I'm not sure who has dominion over who, right? Because I'm pretty much their self-feeding and self-cleaning human, and I respond at their command.

For that, I am graced by their presence and they follow me around. They're wonderful. I have three of them. But I have to admit, there have been times in life where I've actually envied my cats, lounging all day, basking in the sun, having their needs met. So, cat's suffering seems pretty minimal. My one doesn't mind that he's morbidly obese.

But we do suffer. So, while cats may not suffer and while we may envy their lives, to whom much is given, much is required. We actually have much more active, wonderful lives, and yet we suffer. So, what about our suffering? Well, we know that God permits or allows suffering.

Why? Because we live in a fallen world. Why do we suffer? Because we do wrong things and there are consequences. Or others do wrong things and we suffer as a result of the consequences of what they have done to us, right? Or we're persecuted, maybe for our faith, or we experience God's judgment, or the enemy.

But it's all part of the human condition, and even if we do everything right, we will suffer. But more important than the why about it is kind of how we suffer. So, if we know we're going to suffer, it's not if, it's when. Okay, so then how do we suffer and how can we move through our suffering?

Chris Williams: Well, one thing about suffering is that suffering and dark times enhance the presence of God. And so this is something that is used, right? We are refined in our suffering. Pain is kind of like God's megaphone to get our attention when we need our attention gotten, right?

Dr. Jill Hubbard: And so are we listening? Are we drawing close to the Lord, or are we choosing to use our suffering to say, "God, hey, what's up? Why am I going through this?" and "Forget you"? What are we going to do? Are we going to allow our suffering to produce character growth? Because nothing produces growth like suffering does.

And it also gives us a greater appreciation for what is good. Because there is also good. When we think about what if something goes wrong, well, what if something goes right? And so, hard times are inevitable. God doesn't waste it. So, are you going to be bitter about it? Are you just going to be beaten down and battered, or are you going to use it to get better? How do you like that for alliteration?

Brian Perez: I love that.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: We need to use it to propel us forward. And I know sometimes it's really, really hard. Some suffering is way worse than others.

Brian Perez: No more bitter and battered. Get better today by calling us at 1-800-229-3000. We're going to be in the studio for two hours and we'd love to hear from you. Sarah and Sandra are coming right up.

Several resources are priced at just $1 and $2. I mean, come on, candy bars cost more than that. At least the good ones, and they only feed you for a moment, whereas these resources feed your growth. Visit the store at newlife.com and click the banner to grab some great deals. Sarah in Woodbridge, Virginia, listening on WAVA. Welcome to New Life LIVE. Thanks for calling us today.

Sarah: Hi, can you hear me?

Brian Perez: Yep, loud and clear.

Sarah: Okay, I really appreciate your ministry. I listen to your radio show. I have a situation that I need some advice on. My good friend, very close friend, she lost her daughter. She was a college senior. It's believed that she committed suicide. It's very heartbreaking and really sad. We're heartbroken by this situation.

I don't know how to help my friend. I'm trying to figure that out, but she's going through a very difficult time. I have two college children, so it just makes me really shake all the time when I hear this kind of news because I don't know what's going on in their lives.

My friend's daughter, she was very sweet. Everything was going normal. They didn't have any idea that this was going to happen. How do I know if my children have any issues, any problems? It makes me worry so much, especially my son. When he was in middle school, he was bullied and he used to talk about wanting to die and things like that. So it just makes me worry now.

Brian Perez: Right, and that's a great question because sometimes we ask our kids how they're doing and their answer is, "Fine," and we never quite find out what's really going on down there. Chris, what would you say to Sarah?

Chris Williams: Yeah, first and foremost, Sarah, I am so sorry. One, obviously for you, for your friend. I mean, it is the most tragic, worst of worst of situations, the experiences that we never want as parents. And I think that this is a more difficult situation for you because of the similarity in ages, but also that your son had already expressed struggles with life on planet Earth and even the potential of not wanting to be here anymore. So, Sarah, just real quickly, how would you describe your current relationship with your kids?

Sarah: I'd say we have a very good relationship. They're really good, and they listen. Of course, sometimes they argue on things that they don't agree with, but we communicate very well.

Chris Williams: Okay, so that's actually a plus. That's really, really good news. Because these are the situations I think we're afraid to face head-on, and I think we need to go into our fears and face them head-on.

I think having a phone conversation with them and letting them know what your fears are is a good idea. You're not validating your fears or saying that they're right, but you're just checking in on them and letting them know. Let them know this occurred and tell them, "I wanted to check in with you guys to see how you're doing because it makes me scared. I get afraid and I want to make sure that you guys are well-supported, that you're doing okay, and that if there is anything wrong going on that needed care and attention, we can get you care and attention."

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Yeah, sometimes parents are afraid to bring something like that up for fear that they're going to give them the idea. I don't know if your kids knew this girl or know your friend, but I think when things happen, it creates some good moments.

Speak in a way so that you're not overreacting, and so it also gives them a context for why you are asking. Say, "I'm really hurting for my friend and she seemed to have no idea." Broach the subject with them and say, "Not that I think this is where you are at, but it makes me wonder as a parent. Can we dialogue about this? Because this is a pretty traumatic, permanent solution to problems in life."

So I agree with Chris. You want to have that conversation and you want not to put your anxiety and fear on them, Sarah, but to say, "I want you to know that I'm here for you and I want us to have those deeper conversations." It's not just about your grades and are you doing well. Really stress that they don't have to perform for you, that you love them regardless, and you want to know their heart.

And yet you don't want to be intrusive, but at the same time, the fact that you already have a good relationship says that you've been doing a pretty good job. Often say, "As your parent, I don't know what it's like to experience me, and what is it like for you to have me as a parent? Are there areas that I could improve on?" and just continue to open up the dialogue.

Okay, you also asked about your friend. Because of your fear of it happening, like if that happened to you, it's every parent's worst nightmare. It's easy to kind of pull away from people who have gone through things like this. People who have gone through such great loss will pull away from their other friends because it's like, "You have your child, I don't have my child." But I would say to lean into this friend, even if it's uncomfortable for you. She needs support around her, and you don't have to have profound things to say. Just being there and letting her know that you're there for her, because the loss is huge and she's entering a time of long suffering for sure.

Brian Perez: Sarah, we've got a couple of articles at newlife.com. We're going to put a link to them in the show notes there. One is called, "What to Do When Someone is Suicidal," and "What to Do When You Lose a Loved One to Suicide." That last one there you could share with your friend, Sarah.

But, yeah, we're so sorry for your friend's loss. Anyone else when you're struggling with these kind of things, there is the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. It's 988. Just like 911, but it's 988. You can text them as well or call them. Sarah, thanks for calling us today here on New Life LIVE. 1-800-229-3000 is our number, and now here is Sandra in Bloomington, Delaware, who listens to us on the New Life app. Hi there, Sandra. Thanks for downloading the app and thanks for calling in today.

Sandra: Oh, hi. Thank you for taking my call. I've been married for close to 50 years and my husband's clutter has always been a problem for me. Basically, I would describe him as ADHD with clutter blindness. He sees everything as equal value to him, from a scrap of wood to an expensive tool, and he likes to spread things out on the floor where he can see it.

I will say that he has respected my boundary; the house is neat. But all of his spaces are severely cluttered: a full basement, two sheds, behind the shed, a loaded vehicle, things of that nature. And it does cause me stress because you can't clean, it's creating dust, I worry about things like aging chemicals and things of that nature. He doesn't view it as a problem. He doesn't see it as clutter. He sees it as everything has value to him. And so it's just something I've never been able to work out with him, and I'd like perhaps tips on dealing with this.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Sandra, you are describing it perfectly. I know so many wives that struggle with men like this, or women like this too. Part of it is how his brain works and it works differently than people that are more linear and that are not ADHD, and his need to see everything and everything having equal importance.

Yes, those are clearly the symptoms and it is difficult to deal with. Now, I love the fact that you have set some boundaries, and so you've been able to keep some of the common area free of this. I think that's reasonable to require that because we do know that clutter causes stress for people, especially people who aren't ADHD. But even those of us who are, it does create a burden that isn't usually realized. Now, your husband is keeping his things in his areas, so I'm wondering why that has become a problem. I mean, it's kind of like a teenager's room. You care about it, but you can also shut the door.

Sandra: Because we're getting older and if we ever had to get out of this house in a hurry, it would be a huge burden to deal with. I'm not looking for perfection, I'm not looking for an empty basement. I'm looking to pare down to the degree of, are these paint cans dried out? Are these short pieces of wood really necessary? And just to pare it down. It also creates dust, it also creates odors.

Chris Williams: Sandra, let me jump in here real quickly because I think saying that he believes all things have equal value is the wrong direction. I mean, I'm not saying that he doesn't think that that's true, but I don't think it's about what has value. I think it's about what he's afraid to lose. Because if I were to go with the standard kind of what I see in these situations, it is that there is a deep scarcity fear that was born somewhere in his history and that creates this way of being in the world. To lose something or to get rid of something almost feels like getting rid of a part of yourself.

And so that's where this hoarding comes in. Because, again, it's not about what I get, it's about what I'm afraid to lose. And so I would see if we can get into some couples counseling and talk about fear, because I'm with you, Sandra. I love to hear what you're saying about setting boundaries and looking for practicality and ease of life at this phase of your life. I definitely would want you guys to find simplicity, to travel light, so to speak, in this phase of your life. But I really believe it's a fear that's in his way of getting there with you.

Sandra: I've considered that. I've considered that. He came from an upper-middle-class family and his mother made his sister clean his room. Maybe he wasn't allowed to keep things when he was a child, I don't know.

Chris Williams: Yeah, and I don't know either. I think that's where getting into some couples counseling where you can explore that would help. To your point, and also to Jill's point, people with ADHD, myself included, if you looked at my garage, I'm shocked at how many times I clean it twice a year and it's in this condition twice a year.

But with that said, again, getting into it and getting help, if it's as simple as, "I just don't know how to do this," you can go through it. It gets overwhelming very quickly. Bring some people in to help, so that you can just start going through it. But I think you're right. If you focus on the stuff, you're going to lose him because it's not rational and logical and practical, although it is practical to him because I'm sure he knows where everything is. But getting more at the fear. Can we talk about the fear? Like if we were to, you know, relinquish 25% of the stuff that's starting to overflow, right?

Brian Perez: I like that as a goal. 25%. We'll be back on New Life LIVE.

I want to point you guys to an article that we have at newlife.com. It is called, "The Do's and Don'ts of Helping Someone with Compulsive Hoarding." We'll put a link to it in the show notes if you're watching us online.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Can I say something? I always like to mention that Clutterers Anonymous is a wonderful group. They have low-functioning people and high-functioning people, but their material is really, really good because there's so much about mind clutter and fears and loss and trying to hold on to memories and parts of life that didn't feel like they were fully lived, and there's so many layers to it apart from the practical.

Chris Williams: Well, and this is why I'm a big advocate of going into the internal world and looking at what's going on because I really believe that Sandra's husband is dealing with the most common human scarcity fear, and that is just this overarching belief that I'm not enough or it's not enough, or I'm not going to have enough. And so I have to keep this for that "rainy day" or that day of need when it's going to come into use.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Well, and it even goes back to scarcity and the Great Depression. Those of us that had grandparents that lived through that, there was kind of a scarcity mentality that I think got passed down.

Chris Williams: Absolutely. My grandparents used to always love to go to these buffets that were terrible food. They would cost just as much as any of the other meals, but coming out of the Great Depression and especially people of the Dust Bowl, they were just like that. And my grandfather's backyard, he was a mechanic and literally his backyard looked like a junkyard. It looked like a salvage yard. And I remember when we went back there to clean it up, it took days to get it cleaned out.

Brian Perez: Wow. So whatever you're facing, whether it's hoarding or clutter or codependency, addiction, grief, you don't have to do recovery alone. Life Recovery Groups connect you with Christ-centered 12-step community using the Life Recovery Bible and proven tools for lasting change. Across the country, around the world, and online, men and women are finding honest conversation, accountability, and hope one day at a time. To find a Life Recovery Group near you or online, visit newlife.com and click "Groups."

Let's talk to Sam, who is in Canada. Sam was referred to New Life LIVE by a friend. Thanks for calling in today, Sam. How can we help you?

Sam: Thank you. I'm a first-time caller and a friend referred me. I own a successful window and door business. I work hard, I do well. I have a son who will be 11 years old. He recently got diagnosed with oppositional defiant disorder and ADHD from a naturopath. We're going to court to put everything together.

I pleaded with his mother. We separated many years ago. She got remarried. She has five kids from five different men. There's a lot of commotion there. I do everything with my son. I bring him out skating, tobogganing, sports, baseball, you name it. I want to have him active. We go to church. My son goes to a Wednesday night Bible study at the local Pentecostal church.

So whenever I have him 50% of the time, I don't work. I just spend my full time with my son. That being said, with my son's behavior, it's getting worse. He doesn't listen. My mother, who is from a Mediterranean background, Italian, we live together and my mother notices that he doesn't listen and he gets very stubborn. He gets angry. So I'm trying to realize where the root is. It's a lot of dysfunction or whatever from where he's from.

And so he comes to my house, even my family says he's venting his brokenness, his hurt, because his mother's very extremely strict. If you don't eat your food, you're going to your bed, lock your door. He would be locked inside his room as a child, and this is absurd, whereas I myself, whatever he needs to eat, right, so I put whatever he likes.

So the thing is, just recently, I'm driving him to school at nine o'clock in the morning and he has his arms in my face. I said, "Zachary, you need to stop." And another thing he has like a lot of boys, he has addiction to video games. He's very intelligent, but the video game thing is a hindrance. I told him in the car, "Stop or I'm going to take your tablet away, your video games." I said I'll take it for a week and he got worse and worse, and I tapped him by mistake. It was unintentional. And now his mother, having a list of history with her personal life and there's a bit of history with her kids with physical fighting and with my son. So now I'm doing the "great parent" as everyone says, even my pastor. I do the utmost. I bring him to guitar lessons, whatever it is. And now that she's because I said earlier we're going to court, she'll do anything to leave trauma with my son or just a lot of confusion. So I don't know what to do.

Brian Perez: Sam, we're coming up to a break. What would be your main question for us that we'll continue our conversation with when we come back?

Sam: What I need to know basically is, what do I do with my son's behavior? I can't control his behavior for what happens in his mother's house.

Brian Perez: Okay, stay on the phone. We will talk to you when we come back.

Hello, it's Becky Brown. I am so excited to launch our 99 for the 1 partner initiative. Every day we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression, all kinds of ways.

And it reminds us of the story in Luke 15 where the shepherd leaves the 99 to go rescue the one. And you know, we've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life, and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99 for the 1 is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE or newlife.com/99for1.

Brian Perez: And let's go back to Sam in Canada. So what advice would you have for Sam, guys?

Chris Williams: Well, Sam, first and foremost, I am so sorry you're in this situation. It's this constant try to balance between the lack of structure or the extreme, over-harmful structure it sounds like in mom's house. That and then trying to really provide him health and activities and great things to be a part of, all the while he can't be compliant.

So to that point is that chaos, he has a tremendous amount of internal turmoil and chaos. And chaos and compliance do not go together. And that's got to be really frustrating as dad, because it's just in some ways he doesn't even have the ability to do it because he's so emotionally dysregulated.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Well, and the oppositional defiant disorder is an ultimate protest against everything, right? What your son needs more than anything else on planet Earth is calm, but he's going to resist it. But the best way to start to get him calm is connection.

And again, this is where it's going to be really challenging because he won't be able to kind of get there quickly and but he'll need to be attuned to, understood. And that attunement, what we call co-regulation, is this ability to move into his world, to know that he's cared for, that he's safe, that you're with him, and that that relational connection typically calms the internal world down over time.

But it doesn't help immediately with the compliance issue. And so I think you've probably already have done this, but this takes on a whole new set of expectations. And instead of getting him or expecting him to completely comply, I would just take it in steps and iterations. Can we do something for five minutes here? Yes, there does need to be boundaries around video games. And yes, you are dealing with this incredibly difficult situation where he goes back to mom's house, he gets totally out of control internally and externally, and then hands it right off to you and then you have to deal with it.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Well, Sam, even the going back and forth is chaotic for children. They're having to shift gears. Mom probably complains that he comes back and he's dysregulated because the transition actually causes that.

Chris Williams: Well, and a practical piece in that is creating ritual. Ritual around him coming and going. So something that he can consistently look forward to that his body can expect and then know that he's in this different environment. But I think the other thing here, and this is kind of a top view of things, but I hope it gives you the right direction, is that inside of you there's a lot of this rescue hero energy. Like, I need to be the hero dad, the good dad.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Or to make up for all that's happening at mom's, which you can't do.

Sam: His mother calls me, quote-unquote, the "fun dad." But in the meantime, she doesn't spend any time with my son. I asked him, what do you do with your mother? And he doesn't get a lot of quality time. I have no other kids. I've been single for 11 years. I don't date anybody. He asked me once, "Dad, when you going to have a girlfriend?" And what I say in return is, "Zachariah, I don't need a girlfriend, you're my girlfriend." I want you. I don't need any you know what I mean? I don't want anybody else in my life. I want to put all my effort in my son's life because I know he's not getting Obviously, his mother loves him and he says, "I love my mom."

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Well, Sam, I might reframe it a little bit. Instead of making him feel like he has to be your everything, I would just say, "You know, son, I'm taking parenting seriously and I realize with your mom and I not being together, it creates a lot of chaos for you." Don't just throw her under the bus. "And so my focus is to be here with you, and later, later as you get older, I'll find my person. But for now, this is my focus."

Chris Williams: This is true for me, Sam. I didn't grow up with a father that was present. I didn't really have an example of that. I want to overcome that for my own boys, and here's the irony: it's the wrong move. Because my boys don't need a hero dad, they need a healthy dad. And there is a profound difference between those two things.

And so what I would say is like all of the fear that drives you to overcome what your kid is going through and how he's suffering inside creates this hero energy. And the fight really there is to transition it into healthy energy. Because part of what I want your son to see is that you do have a life, and that your life is definitely engaged and all in with him, and you have a life outside of him. You have friends and you're involved in church.

So I think seeking a balance in that and knowing that the direction now is not just healthy behavior but more importantly, it's healthy connection. How do we build much healthier connection so that he does have a place where his experience can land exactly how it is?

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Yeah, so that he notices a difference without you having to point it out, right? That there's a different feeling at dad's house than mom's house. And so that means that you and his grandmother cannot be overinvested in his compliance and be upset when he's reacting badly or he doesn't listen. That's all part of his woundedness. And so sometimes we have to get really quiet and say, "Hey, son, what's what's going on? I notice you you're pushing back a lot. What's going on inside of you when you're doing that?" and get quiet. Now, that's hard because he's going to push all the buttons, and it feels bad as a parent to not have your kid listen. And so you have to remove your own ego from that and this is just like he's just a ping pong ball bouncing all over the place. And so that calm gives him something to kind of mirror.

I think with you being in legal proceedings, he needs a child advocate. Somebody that's just looking out for his best interest, that's assigned to him.

Brian Perez: Do you think "How We Love Our Kids" would be a good resource for Sam?

Chris Williams: Yeah, that'd be a great one. It's available in the newlife.com store.

Brian Perez: Sam, thank you so much for calling in today to New Life LIVE. We hope to hear from you again. Tell your friend thank you on our behalf for referring you to us. Another great resource for him would be Becky Brown and Mark Cameron's book, "Understanding Your Attachment Style."

When individuals and families reach out to New Life searching for answers, healing, and the reassurance that they are not alone, it's your financial partnership that allows us to meet them where they are and provide real solutions. You can give online at newlife.com, by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE, or by texting NLM to 28950. Marlon in Washington, DC, listening on WAVA. You are next today on New Life LIVE.

Marlon: Yes, how you doing? Yes, I listen on the radio every day at work, so I really enjoy everything y'all talk about. I want to bring my issue up. You know, I've been married for 18 months and my wife seems that only I pay the bills and the mortgage and all that, and she don't share her finances. So everything we do is with my money. I bring it up about we supposed to be sharing in the finance sense since you work. And I'm just wondering what do you do about that?

Brian Perez: Did you guys talk about it before you got married?

Marlon: Yes, matter of fact we went to counseling, we did all this, and in counseling she agreed that I would do I would handle the finances. And so in the counseling we did that, but when it came down to it, she just keeps her money to herself. So it's been 18 months and I just don't like it because it seems to me like she's kind of selfish because if everything's about for her.

Brian Perez: And what does she do with the money that she brings in?

Marlon: That's the thing. Far as I know she she just put her money in the bank or buy whatever she likes to buy.

Brian Perez: Marlon, is this the first marriage for you guys and what's the age difference between the two of you?

Marlon: She's just a year older than I am. I'm 65, she's 66. This would be my second marriage. Her first marriage, her husband passed away about 20 years ago.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Okay, so then she she dealt with them by herself then and became in charge of the finances. Do you make a lot more than she makes?

Marlon: Yes, I do.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Okay, okay. So it sounds like she sees her money as spending money where you have the bulk of the money. Well, and I get what you're saying and I think it warrants more of a conversation, one that approaches it letting her know that you love her, that you want to be the provider and you certainly see the discrepancy in income, but that when you guys talked about sharing the burden, you thought that it would be more of a partnership and that perhaps you each had different ideas of what that partnership looked like and could you talk about it. Because you certainly don't want to have resentments towards her. You love her. And so certainly having a little spending money is great, but I hear what you're saying, that you're feeling a lack of appreciation and that you're carrying the whole load by yourself.

Chris Williams: Well, and here's the other mistake I think happens, is that we don't talk about partnership in marriage, especially in premarital, as a business partnership. You're in the business of building a common life together for God willing the rest of your life. Those require really hard conversations. Those require getting expectations on the table and continuing to do this.

At a deeper level, because money comes down to one of the things that really contends for our sense of safety and security in the world, that's deep, deep rooted. And so not to have conversations or to avoid conversations of what does your money, what does our money mean to us individually, collectively, and how are we building a common life together and making sure that it works for both of us? Because it will require compromise and negotiation for the rest of your life.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Right, and other issues get played out in this arena, right? Because every issue in marriage comes down to a safety and security issue. And so that's why I think that this is a I'm actually a little bit excited, Marlon, because this becomes the platform to deepen your relationship if you guys allow it to.

And so I would get back into marital counseling and just be like, "Hey, I'm having some struggles and some fears or frustrations around how we're dealing with money," and frame it in the positive. I want us to be able to work together well at this. I want to make sure, honey, that you're taken care of. I also want to make sure that I have a clear understanding that I'm not building resentments around this. So can we work at this together to find a solvable solution? And the solvable solution quite honestly is developing a strong system that works not just for me or not just for you, but works for us. And that provides a lot more of safety and security, which you build trust, deeper level of trust on top of that.

On the one hand, she's trusting you to pay all the bills, but she's not 100% trusting, right? So where has her hurt been around money and security and trust that she feels like she kind of has to hoard her money so that she has something? So she's not fully trusting. Well, and it could just be a default system. If she was on her own for 20 years, she just has a way of doing things and those don't change overnight. And your system together is not going to look the same as if you were 20 years old and starting out for the first time. So if that's the expectation, then that needs to be adjusted because both of you were fully functioning adults. So how do you in a sense marry your two systems and give each other a sense of control and autonomy?

Brian Perez: Do you think the Intimacy in Marriage weekend would be a good resource?

Dr. Jill Hubbard: That would be awesome for Mr. and Mrs. Marlon there in Washington, DC. It's happening in Washington, DC. So you guys can walk there and maybe make her pay for it. Would that be a good No, maybe not. It's not happening until July, but actually July is going to come on very soon, Marlon, that would be so great.

Chris Williams: Well, and I would say amen, it's not romantic and most of your life will not be that way. But it will be significant. It will be meaningful. Clarity is important. Yes, marriage is about building a common life together. One of my my tagline is human beings flourish at the intersection of great relating and great creating. Marriage is where that's primarily worked out. And so we build a really strong relationship, but the creation part of it, do we build a financial system that works for both of us? That works for our family, works for our dreams, aspirations, and most importantly, works for God's will as He's acting itself out through our lives. And so that does and I think where it does become more romantic to be honest, is that when we have difficult conversations, when we have the safety, security, and trust to work through tough conflict, the sense of bonding and connection is so much deeper. And so really, literally, our bodies open up to each other when we work through difficult things because trust is strengthened there.

Dr. Jill Hubbard: Amen, Chris. I love that. When we do work through things and we say hard things and being aware, Marlon, like if she starts to get defensive, right? You're not trying to take anything away from her. You're trying to understand her and lean into her. So be sure to communicate that. That's important because it's not something we want you both backed in your corner and dueling over. We want you coming together.

You know, marriage saying this at a marriage conference a few weeks ago, and that is, you know, one of my least favorite lines in cinematic history is "You complete me." Oh yeah. I think it should be, "You incomplete me." Yes, I think the line to be accurate to the reality of intimacy and marriage is "You expose me." Oh yeah. That's what that's what intimacy does. Its job is to expose. Yeah, how dare you.

Brian Perez: And what does it expose? It exposes everything. That's why our Intimacy in Marriage workshop is so unbelievably powerful because it takes what that which is exposed, puts it in a safe place to where couples can work through it and talk through it and find solutions and find a deeper connection in the midst of it all. Marlon, thanks for calling us today on New Life LIVE. Talk to you next time.