New Life LIVE

Intro Voiceover: Welcome to the New Life Live podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: If you're tired of toxic relationships, guess what? So are we. We feel for you and want to help. This is New Life Live. I'm your host Brian Perez, and we invite you to call in today. It's your first step toward safe and healthy relationships. 1-800-229-3000 is the number to call for the next two hours.

Here to help today, we've got licensed marriage and family therapist Mark Cameron, author of *Understanding Your Attachment Style*. Dr. Jim Burns, founder of Homeword and author of several books himself, is here too. You can find Mark's book and several of Jim's on our website newlife.com. Mark, why don't you start us off? Set the tone.

Mark Cameron: Today I want to talk about that internal struggle that we have when adult sons and daughters make choices that we don't agree with. By the time our kids reach adulthood, we've invested so much time in protecting them, teaching them, loving them, communicating our values, and most of us have sacrificed deeply for them to have certain privileges.

When they get into adulthood and they make decisions that conflict with our values, whether that's relationships, career paths, finances, or lifestyle, that can stir up this complex mix of emotions: confusion, fear, disappointment, anger, even grief over the life that we hoped that they would have. And yet that movement toward independence actually challenges us to an important kind of growth, which is learning to live in that tension of love and disagreement.

One of the hardest things to accept when our kids are grown is that our role has changed. When they're young, we have both influence and authority. But as they move into adults, we can hope to have influence, but we lose that authority over them. Sometimes we can think, "If I just explain it better, they'll see," or "They're making a mistake, I have to step in," or "I can't stand by and just watch this happen." But that's a deeper struggle for us, which is letting go of that authority.

Once they've grown, they move from kids to adult sons and daughters, individuals who have their own agency, their own journeys, their own lessons to learn. When we don't accept that shift, that struggle can turn into criticism or pressure, and then they may distance from us. Accepting their decisions doesn't mean that we agree with them or that we're okay with them; it means that we acknowledge they have a right to make their own decisions.

I've got five points here to help people understand what it looks like to stay connected and honor boundaries. Number one: listen more than you advise. Because when they share their lives, listen for the "why" behind their choices. They're more likely to open up when they feel like they're being heard and they're understood, not corrected.

Number two: ask for permission before you give input. Asking, "Would you like my perspective?" and if they say no, learning to honor that. Number three: manage your own anxiety. If you're struggling with their decisions, go process that with a friend, a counselor, a spouse. Your willingness to grow is going to speak much louder to them than telling them what to do.

Number four: keep the door open. Let them know that you're a safe place regardless of what their choices are. That's the foundation of a relationship. If they feel safe with you, when they make mistakes, they're more likely to come back and admit those mistakes and seek your advice. Number five: recognize that growth comes through experience.

The lessons that we want them to learn are sometimes taught through their own experience. They need to learn to discover that on their own. This requires a lot of restraint, humility, and emotional courage to do this, which isn't always easy. But if preserving the relationship matters, and for most parents it does, then learning to accept those choices becomes more important than being right.

Dr. Jim Burns: It's so good. You're singing my song here. I think you're so right. We want to control, but now we need to connect, even when we're just going to have to agree to disagree. When our kids were five, we said experience is a better teacher than advice, so we would want them if they put their hands on something burning, that would be a problem. Today, it's a little harder when they're adults, but we still have to let them have that experience.

Mark Cameron: We'll be back on New Life Live.

Intro Voiceover: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: Today is Monday, and a new episode of our Every Man's Battle podcast came out today. If you aren't listening, you are missing out. It's a podcast that breaks the silence around sexual integrity struggles that millions of men face but rarely discuss openly. Through honest conversations with seasoned counselors, each episode offers practical strategies and genuine hope to build men back up and experience freedom.

You can find today's episode at newlife.com, our YouTube channel, on our app, or wherever you get your podcasts. 1-800-229-3000 is the number to call about any subject. Nothing's off the table. You can call in and talk to us for the next two hours.

We've got Dr. Jim Burns and Mark Cameron here today. Mark started by talking about what to do when our values don't match those of our adult children. It reminded me of something I haven't heard often, but I've heard it a few times when parents might say something like, "My kids are my best friends." And we're talking about little kids, not when they grow up. That's one thing, I guess it's a little more acceptable. But as kids, they just want to have this relationship with their children where they're buddies instead of parents. Why is that not the way to go?

Dr. Jim Burns: Definitely in my mind isn't the way to go. I always say to parents and they sometimes laugh when I say it, but I just go, look, they already think you're too old. You can't be their best friend. But we have to have authority. Authority doesn't mean that you're mean-spirited or that you're an angry whatever. Maybe that was your parenting situation as you were growing up.

But we can't be palsies with them. We need to have authority, and authority means that you lead with love always, but you lead with authority too. The kids who are running the show at age 12, those are kids who aren't going to do well as Mark was talking about the adult years. They're the ones who are not going to do well then.

They need to know that you love them like crazy, build that firm foundation, and at the same time, "Hey buddy, I'm in charge." And then it has to make that switch, and that's what's hard. That switch toward adulthood means that we really do move from kind of being in control to now trying to connect with them even if they've strayed from faith or they're making some unbelievable decisions that have us in shock violating our values. Maybe they were the leaders in the youth group and now they don't believe, whatever it might be.

Mark Cameron: It's not the Lord's design for us to be friends like you're explaining with our kids because around 12 years old, kids go through a biological process called neuro-pruning where their brain starts to get rid of information that they think that they don't need to make room for new information.

There's a natural separation that happens where kids push away from their parents. They pull away. It's learning to be independent in this world without my mom, without my dad. Not completely, but in moments and learning to discover things by themselves. It doesn't mean that you should take a hands-off approach, but many parents feel rejected when that happens and they want to be their kid's best friend when they're in high school.

Kids learning to push away and seek advice and information from others is not necessarily a threat. You should be involved in your kid's world and understanding what's going on, but recognize that's a natural process for them to learn to pull away. Because when that doesn't happen, then this creates a codependency and then they struggle in adulthood and they can't launch.

Dr. Jim Burns: And they don't launch. They become entitled. Entitled kids growing up typically don't, they have a failure to launch. Jim, I just love Mark's voice and he's just has such wisdom. So as when he talks, I just lean in because that was good stuff.

Brian Perez: Did you get a chance to watch his webinar last week?

Dr. Jim Burns: I did not, but I'm going to watch it.

Brian Perez: You better. You've got a couple days left.

Dr. Jim Burns: I've got a way I can see that. He's got connections here at New Life. I can do that. I really am anxious to do that.

Brian Perez: It was really good. It was on understanding your attachment style, how to find out what your attachment style is. There's also the book that's available in the newlife.com store called *Understanding Your Attachment Style*. Which attachment style, Mark, do you think is the parent who wants to be friends with their kids? Would that be the pleaser or?

Mark Cameron: Oftentimes the pleaser or the vacillator. Both of them can do that. The pleaser doesn't want to upset others and so they want everybody to be happy with them, or they can be very fearful like, "I don't want my child to get hurt." And so they can be very overprotective and prime their child to check in with parent every single time for everything and not take risks.

And then the vacillator can really struggle with rejection sensitivity which comes from their childhood, but they don't realize that. And so when their kids pull away, it triggers this rejection in them and then they want to be best friends. Sometimes you can even see this, especially with the vacillator female, that they might start dressing like their teenager to connect with them and be like them or want their kid to be like them, who they are, shape them in their own mold.

Dr. Jim Burns: That's so true. I think what happens a lot of times in that situation is then it affects the parenting because as we're looking at attachment styles, not only does it affect how we parent our kids, but it also deals with how we're parenting our kids with our spouse if we're married. Cathy and I have different styles and she for some reason didn't want me to be the Disneyland dad because I'm kind of the pleaser and she's like, "Hey, I'm being the hard guy here. You need to put on your man pants and act like a man instead of giving in to them all the time."

That was a great learning lesson for me. By the way, you cost me two books. I bought two of your books on Amazon Friday. I had an 8:00 meeting with somebody and they had attachment style issues with their spouse. So I said, "I got a book for you." So I just bought it for them. Then I realized I know the counselor and I went, "That counselor needs that book too," so I sent it to the counselor as well.

Mark Cameron: Oh, thank you. Glad to just help Mark out here.

Dr. Jim Burns: I don't think you make a whole lot of money off of books, but anyway.

Brian Perez: Every little bit helps. This is New Life Live. 1-800-229-3000 is the number to call us today if you've got something you want to discuss. If you're unable to call when we're here in the studio, you can send us an email or leave us a voicemail, and the instructions on how to do that are on our website newlife.com/radio.

Here's one of those emails that was sent in. It's from Yvonne. She asks, "When is it good to confront someone? I'm troubled by the way a relative communicates. This person has no filter, but they're not deliberately cruel. They're just not a very deep-thinking Christian and are highly hyperactive in their life and words and actions."

"I can say the sky is blue and they will hear something clear off the Richter scale, overreact, and act surprised at my reaction. With my personality and background, I feel disrespected and judged as a disappointment by the way this person communicates, and this is all in my mind and feelings. Should I confront them?" What would you guys say to Yvonne?

Mark Cameron: Was this a family member? Was this a friend?

Brian Perez: A relative.

Mark Cameron: Sometimes we think about the word confront in a very conflictual way, like if I'm going to confront someone, there's going to be tension here. It's going to be you against me, and one of us is going to win. But confrontation can be healthy. In fact, we use that terminology in therapy as an intervention.

What that really means is I'm going to address a topic. I'm going to bring something up that is painful or hurtful, that's important. I love and care about you enough that I'm not going to shy away from this; I'm going to bring it to your attention. When we approach a conversation in that spirit, in that heart, the confrontation, so to speak, can be healthy, can be productive, can lead to healing and can lead to growth.

I think inviting somebody in, "I'd love to talk with you. Can you tell me when a good time is would be for you?" Not surprising someone or ambushing someone. Really inviting them in, preparing them for it if possible, tell them what the topic is about. Jim was sharing about he and his wife earlier. "Hey, can we talk later on today about our parenting styles?" Now he's primed and ready for that. He can prepare some of his thoughts.

When you begin these discussions too, I also find that it's helpful that if you suspect that there's going to be defensiveness, somebody's not going to listen, they're going to interrupt you, I would just start with that up front. Like, "Hey, I've got something to share. I want to hear you out too. I do have a concern that you may not hear me out fully, and so my request is if you could do that."

When you do that, it assigns some level of responsibility to the other person that if they do the thing that you are concerned about, then it justifies a little bit why you had that concern in the first place. When you ask for permission and when you put these things out there like that, the other person then has to hold themselves accountable, and you're more likely to have a productive conversation.

Dr. Jim Burns: Confrontation usually makes it sound like it can be bad, but there's actually a spiritual gift in the Bible and it's called exhortation. Exhortation means that you're coming alongside, you can be positive, but also it means you can confront them in a kinder, gentler way. I think where conflict and Yvonne, I think you'll have to try this on your relative because you want to make sure that they just don't get super defensive.

They get defensive when we say "you." But when we say, "Hey, this may be me, however, here's how I'm feeling when you said that," and now it's up for grabs. This could be me. Or when we do kind of a "we," how can we solve this issue? I think defensiveness when it comes to conflict is the main killer of a good conversation. It just is.

People who are like your relative, they are probably going to be defensive. Try to make it a "we." What can we do to resolve this? I think when you do that, you kind of level the playing field. People who have the gift of exhortation are really good at that. Again, that doesn't mean that I'm one who loves when people become Christians. I don't have the gift of evangelism, but I at times can be an evangelist, and it's the same with exhortation.

We can learn to communicate through exhortation, which is sometimes conflict and do a really good job. That's going to draw you closer together. Conflict if you do it right is going to draw them closer together. But she needs to let them know. If the person is just not willing to deal with any of their stuff, well then Yvonne, you've tried, and that's when you have to go, well then you're not a safe person for me and I'm going to have to back off. You don't have to say that, but you just kind of live it out that way.

Mark Cameron: What I love about what Yvonne noted in there was that she has a background. She has a history that makes her sensitive to certain emotional triggers. That's fantastic when we can take, as Jim's saying, take ownership of what's going on inside us when we speak with that "I" statement.

Especially when you speak with an "I" statement, you want a feeling to follow. Because most of us speak with a "you do this" and then an absolute follows, "you always do this," and then it's about the facts of how I see the facts rather than "I feel." What I feel inside, because we can't really argue with what somebody feels inside, and connection actually happens on the emotional level.

So we have empathy. Somebody can have empathy with you if you share your emotional state. If you don't share your emotional state, if you're just angry, it may be difficult to connect in that emotion. But when we can learn to be vulnerable and say, "I feel anxious, I feel overwhelmed, I feel scared," a softening typically occurs. Not saying always, but typically occurs.

Then being willing to ask yourself the important history question of, why is that so bothersome for me? Where in my history does that come from? Is that an area, even though I don't like what this person's doing right now, is that an area that I need to deal with too because I'm very sensitive to that? Being sensitive to something is not a bad thing, but when it causes us to overreact, we don't want to do that.

We want to learn how to respond. When we can make sense of our childhood histories, our emotional triggers, and learn to practice certain areas to lean the opposite way, we heal and we're more likely to have a productive conversation. When we do the growth work ourselves, that challenges someone else to do growth work.

Dr. Jim Burns: That's really good. What I hear you saying is that we could have a conversation with somebody and it can be a confrontation, but it's better when as Yvonne said, she was aware of some of her feelings, she's aware of what her triggers are. What you're saying is that's really the growth that we have to do. Why is this bugging me? Instead of just going at it, why did that bother me? She said that to me, he said that to me, why does that bug me? What's it about me?

Mark Cameron: Growth always starts with awareness. You cannot work on something, fix something that you are not aware of. So we must first become aware of something to be able to work on it.

Brian Perez: That's what's good about New Life. You can learn this stuff just by hanging out here with us. Yvonne, thank you so much for submitting your question online at newlife.com/radio. That'll show you the ways that you can get your question to us. One way you can do that, though, is right now. We're going to be in the studio for the next two hours or so at 1-800-229-3000, whether you want to talk about what we've already discussed or you want to bring up your own topic. You choose the topics here on New Life Live.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live. We are back. 1-800-229-3000 is the number to call today. We've got Dr. Jim Burns and Mark Cameron in the studio. Right before the break, we were talking about confrontation and it reminded me that we have an article at newlife.com in case you're in a situation where you feel like you might need to confront someone: "Six Critical Steps to Courageous Confrontation." We'll put a link in the show notes there so that you can get that article there at newlife.com. You can also just go there and search for it.

Now, we were also talking about exhortation and I've heard people sometimes brag, "God gave me the gift of exhortation," but it's just their way of getting out there into the church community or whatever and kind of bullying other people. But like you said, you've got to be kind, you've got to be gentle, you can't just go in there and say, "You're doing this wrong and you'd better change your ways." So what do you tell someone who maybe feels that they have that gift, but it's really just them? It could be a fleshy thing.

Dr. Jim Burns: I really think you try those kind of gifts out. If it works and you see God really working through you, awesome. But you might need the community of people around you who can kind of say gently, "You know, you're not as good at that as you think you are." Although someone might be afraid to confront the confronter.

But I think a lot of people who have the gift of exhortation, they do that a lot of times with empathy. Mark talked before the break about empathy and I was thinking about adult children or your spouse or so many types of people that we have conflict with. Sometimes we have to lead with empathy even when we don't agree with them. "Help me understand how you feel."

"Wow, I can see that. Even though we're not on the same page here, but I can see that." I think that's what a person who has truly a gift of exhortation does. Let me tell you my thought, but I don't think that the people who kind of the people who are trying to thus saith the Lord really not in the spirit of things, I don't think they have the gift of exhortation.

Mark Cameron: Spiritual gifts should lead people closer to the Lord. Of course, sometimes people do need to be confronted and sin needs to be called out. But for the most part, if you've got the gift of exhortation, you should be leading people to Christ. And gifts need to be honed too. God gives us all talents, he gives us all abilities, but we need to hone those.

So if you truly believe that that's your gift, that's your calling, what I would say is get around other people who do that gift very well who have that gift and they do that thing very well, learn from them and get them feedback. Oftentimes, I think, and this is what you were alluding to here, is that people will justify their insecurities by saying, "Well, that's my personality type. I'm just not a hugger."

But there's no baby that came out of the womb that didn't need a hug. So we become shaped that way or some people will justify it as that's my spiritual gift of exhortation when really they just struggle with actually holding things in and having a filter.

There's a big difference between who we are and how we are. There's parts of us that are who we are that God puts a stamp on us when we come out of the womb. Not all siblings are the same; some are introverts, some are extroverts, some are big-picture thinkers, some are detail thinkers. Some people are creative, other people are accountants and they see all of those things, and neither is a good or a bad thing. But you're not going to change an introvert into an extrovert or vice-versa.

And then there's a how we are. How have we been shaped? And that part about us can actually be changed and reconditioned, especially and it should be if we want to grow. Healthy things grow. So we all have insecurities. But until we explore those, until we find those out, as I mentioned earlier, we can't work on them. And so learning to get feedback from others can be who are healthy and who are safe can be actually the real gift for us.

Dr. Jim Burns: And we want to build a relationship with people. Those of if we're going to confront, we need to typically have a relationship with them. I have a friend named Tom, and years ago we were in a group together and he was probably my greatest cheerleader. I just love this guy, and I was so responsive to his positive affirmation.

One day I was saying in the group, I was sharing that my schedule was out of control and he said, "Well, who's in control of your schedule?" And I said, "Well, that would be me." And he said, "Well, what's wrong with you? Why do you have a, I mean, if you're doing that, is there something wrong with your self-image or are you a people pleaser or whatever?"

Well, he went from being this positive guy. But you know what? He had done so much good work in my life, I was like, "Thank you for sharing that. You're right." And so I think but it came out of a relationship of years of this guy cheering me on, and I knew he believed in me. And so he had every right to be able to confront me in a way, and I've never forgotten that conversation.

Mark Cameron: He had that relational credit in the bank. And what he was doing was actually in a healthy way for your good because he loved and cared about you. Because generally when someone says, "What's wrong with you?" that's not a good thing. But he had built that relationship with you.

I like to tell people this: there is actually a difference between being right and doing good. Sometimes you're not the right person because you don't have that relationship and you might see something in someone's life, but you might not be the right person to go and tell that. Or the way that you do it doesn't do good. So being right and doing good, sometimes those are two different things and we've got to learn to get that balance.

Brian Perez: Have you ever sat in a coffee shop and you hear the conversation at the next table and you're like, "I so want to jump in and be part of that conversation but I don't know these people"? Well, you can join us. Just pull up a chair, call in and talk to us at 1-800-229-3000. It can be about this topic or any topic. Maybe you're hearing this and saying, "Yeah, these guys sound like they know what they're talking about."

They do. They've got many years of experience and they want to share it with you. Vern, you're coming up next when we come back from the break here on New Life Live. 1-800-229-3000.

Becky Brown: Hello, it's Becky Brown and I am so excited to launch our 99 for the One partner initiative. Every day we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression, all kinds of ways and it reminds us of the story in Luke 15 where the shepherd leaves the 99 to go rescue the one.

We've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99 for the One is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we can continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE, that's 1-800-639-5433, or newlife.com/9941.

Intro Voiceover: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: With graduation season, Mother's Day, and Father's Day right around the corner, you are likely going to buy some gifts. Well, make it a quadruple win at the newlife.com moving sale. One: get your shopping done early. Two: save money. Three: help New Life because we don't want to pack it all up. And four: give gifts that help recipients in their spiritual and personal growth. You can visit newlife.com and click on the moving sale banner on the store page.

1-800-229-3000 is the number to call in today and here is Vern who listens to us on Sirius XM Channel 131 in Charlotte, North Carolina. Hi there, Vern. Thanks for calling in today.

Vern: Thank you. I have a question. My husband has a niece that has stopped talking to him altogether. We've been trying to determine why. She used to reach out to him for all kinds of things helping her with different things in her life and all of a sudden, two years ago she just stopped talking. He's tried reaching out several times to find out why that has happened, but she doesn't respond. She is now critically ill and he is still trying to reach out to determine what he has done, if he's done anything to cause harm to her in any way. So my question today: what can he do after he has reached out so many, many times and just recently tried reaching out?

Brian Perez: And this is your husband who's reaching out to her?

Vern: Yes, it's my husband's niece.

Brian Perez: Your husband's niece. What do you guys say?

Mark Cameron: Where's the parents? I mean how is she, is this your husband's sister's daughter, brother's daughter?

Vern: My husband's brother who passed away's daughter. She lives with her mother.

Mark Cameron: Does he have a relationship with the mother? Do you guys have relationship with her?

Vern: Yes and no because she lives in the house with her mother. So the relationship has been damaged because of that. We can no longer go to the house and see her because every time we call, she says, "Oh here she comes, I got to get off the phone."

Mark Cameron: So you guys don't have a good relationship with the mother?

Vern: Well we had up until that point. Something has shifted. We can still call her mom and we can have conversation with her. But if the other person comes into the room, her daughter comes in a room, she immediately has to get off the phone. If we go to her house, instead of us going inside the house, the mother would come outside and we would talk at a distance like that.

Mark Cameron: Got it. So you guys have a relationship with the mother; it's just whenever the niece comes in or comes around, she distances. That sounds very difficult. I mean this is a hard situation. I think you're doing a lot of the right things here that you're reaching out, you're wanting to find out if I did something hurtful or that offended you, I'd love to have the opportunity to apologize for that. I really love you, I care about you and I want to be back in relationship.

When you do those efforts, if somebody won't speak to you and they won't hear any of that, it can be helpful to at least write it down and mail them a letter if they refuse to take a phone call. But there's not too much that you can do after that other than not to snoop, but to try and understand from other people who are involved in that other person's life what it could be so that you could maybe address it in a more specific way.

But sometimes people also distance, not because of something that you've done to them, but because something that they may be ashamed of or they might be in an addiction or something like that and they don't want other people to know and so then they distance. That could be what's going on too, but I'm interested to hear what Jim thinks.

Dr. Jim Burns: Vern, I appreciate so much you and your husband's love for her. You may be at step two or three when you have to go back to step one. Step one is that you don't make it about you and you don't even try to get the information. What you might want to do is next time bring some flowers and just say, "I've heard that you are ill and we love you and we're praying for you."

Honestly, don't then go, "Why are you not speaking?" or whatever it might be. That may be step two or three. And for some reason, as Mark was saying, there could be shame involved in it, there could be a misunderstanding that you have no idea. You want to know and you're probably going to get that maybe from the mother more than from the young girl right now.

But I would go back to step one and just show her love, affirmation, but honestly without any looking for what that answer is. You're probably going to be dying if I was you, I want to know what's going on. But hold your tongue and have your husband kind of hold his tongue and as much as he wants to get to step two or three, I think you get to step one first. Step one is connect back into the relationship. And you while you give a gift of love to her, again it could be flowers something like that because you just don't know how ill she is, it sounds like.

But if you can get there, it'll even affect the mom and the mom may be able to say, "Well here's one of the reasons" or "here's, what can we do to continue the relationship?" I'd quit even any thought of saying what did I do even though it's about her because you guys are continuing to do it. But that's step two or three and I think you're going to have to go back to step one. Does that make sense?

Brian Perez: And step one could take a while. It's not like it's going to be in one day it'll. There may be a breakthrough immediately. Vern, does that make sense?

Vern: Yes and we have tried all of the above and like you said I guess we have to go back to it. We just tried the other day as a matter of fact. She is very critically ill.

Dr. Jim Burns: When she's dealing with her illness, she may not have the emotional ability to deal with a we were talking about conflict earlier, a conflict in what she perceives as a conflict in the relationship. Or she honestly, Mark could have got at something, there could be something that she's embarrassed about and she just adores your husband and she doesn't want to let him know what happened or what's going on.

You just don't know and you're going to know one day. But it takes time and so it really takes Paul said to Timothy, "Discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness." And I think this is going to take the discipline of not pushing to get the information that you want or that you to be honest deserve, but maybe just slowing it down a bit and because she's critically ill, I realize time is of the essence. But most people once there's some healthy affirmation, not asking the questions, not making it all that uncomfortable, most people do eventually kind of open up to something. Who knows?

Mark Cameron: It's hard to be mad at someone who's being kind and loving, but also gentle. As Jim is saying is don't be intrusive. Become that safe place. I think the last thing that I would add here, Vern, is there's some level of grief for you and especially your husband to process the loss of this relationship. She was close and that is painful, especially when there's an unknown in there and it's a sudden someone's gone. And so find someone to a counselor, pastor someone to help process that grief because that that's real and that's valid for both of you.

Brian Perez: Just for calling in today, we're going to send you a registration for a grief webinar that we've got coming up this summer. So stay on the phone. Everyone else, you can get details about it at newlife.com. Something else going on at newlife.com right now is our club, our 99 for the One partners.

Because every day someone reaches out to New Life because their marriage is unraveling, an addiction feels impossible to break, a heart is heavy with shame, guilt, or confusion. And when they reach out for help, they need it right then and there. At New Life, we believe no one should have to wait for healing. That's why your support matters, not just occasionally, but consistently.

One-time gifts are great. We love those. They allow us to respond, but monthly partners allow us to be ready. When support is steady, we can answer calls the moment they come in, offer counseling intensives and recovery groups without delay, walk with people beyond the crisis and into lasting transformation. That's the heartbeat behind 99 for the One partners, our monthly support program. You can call 1-800-NEW-LIFE, text NLM to 28950, or visit newlife.com to find out more.

Leanne in Philadelphia, welcome to New Life Live. How can we help you today?

Leanne: Okay, hold on one second. I just want to make sure that I'm going to be guarded because my girlfriend's getting in the car. But long story short, I have another girlfriend that I've known for years and she was just talking that how much work she did and was paid under the table. Should I say anything? Since 2014.

Brian Perez: This right along with what we were talking about earlier, how to confront someone with different things. So stay on the line. We have to go to our break right now, but we will talk to you about this, Leanne. Thanks so much for calling in and thanks for listening to us on WBYN. This is New Life Live. We're going to be in the studio for the rest of this hour and all of next, so call in now with your questions to save a space in line to speak with Mark Cameron and Dr. Jim Burns. 1-800-229-3000 is the number to call in. If you're watching online right now on Facebook or YouTube, the number's right there on the bottom of your screen. So call in. We want to hear from you.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life Live.

Brian Perez: Hey Leanne, you still with us? Just so you know, in case you can't listen to the entire response to your question, we archive all of our episodes on Facebook, YouTube, wherever you get your podcasts, so you can listen later. It sounds like she has a friend known her for about 12 years and she's just wondering, how do I respond to this biblically?

Dr. Jim Burns: I appreciate the fact that this bothers you. But I think you take it slow. I wouldn't say you're wrong and I'm right at this point. I would just simply say, "How does that make you feel?" I mean, I think if I would do that, I might feel bad about doing it, and see what she says. Because you want to get context for how she's feeling about it. She was boasting about something that you probably would see as not the right integrity way to go.

Leanne: I don't believe she was boasting about it. It was just something she said and I was unaware of it. It was matter-of-fact.

Dr. Jim Burns: You might want to sometime say, "You know, I've been thinking about that. Because if I was in your shoes, I'm not sure I would have done it the same way. How does that make you feel by doing this stuff under the table?" And she may have an answer for you that works or not, but it may have then you can have dialogue about it because a lot of times when we're confronting, I think sometimes it's the dialogue that moves it along.

So for me, I would probably go from there just the more, "I've been thinking about that. So you've been doing that for a long time. How do you feel about that?" Obviously it's against the law.

Leanne: So I don't want to bring it up. Then what you're telling me: don't bring it up again if she brings it, if she said something.

Dr. Jim Burns: I mean partly, I mean if it is bugging you so much, I don't have a problem with you bringing it up, but I'm just saying for that conversation to move farther, you're the one who's probably going to have to take the lead on that. She just matter-of-factly told you what she was doing and she's been doing it since 2014.

Leanne: She's been doing it all her life, but I've only known her since '14.

Mark Cameron: Understand your "why" and understand her "why." Here's what I mean by that. Why when you asked this question, yes, it's against the law, it goes against Christian values, especially she's a Christian, so I can understand the tension here. But understand the "why" of why you want to bring this up. Is this because, "Hey, I just need to tell you this is wrong, you shouldn't be doing that, and I want to tell you off?" Or am I going to confront you in a loving way because I want to challenge you?

This is what I think what you're saying here, Jim, is the dialogue that moves it along, but it's also the relationship that people respond to. But the dialogue builds the relationship. What I would say is before you condemn it or judge in that sense, yes, it is wrong regardless, but understand her "why" then behind it. Does she have financial struggles that she thinks that if I report this and I'm going to pay taxes and I won't be able to meet this critical need? Learning to understand that first can help build empathy for why she's doing it.

Leanne: And I understand that perfectly. It's just something that I've known for a while and then it happened just a couple days ago where I heard it again from her. And I just felt was God putting that on my heart to say something or just shut up? I'm not accountable.

Dr. Jim Burns: Listen to what God puts on your heart because I think sometimes God puts on our heart something that's uncomfortable. Other times, it was just our thoughts. But I think you may be onto something for her. The Bible talks about integrity, the man or the woman of integrity walks securely is what it says and then they'll have people around them with security who walk securely.

Sometimes if we're around people who aren't people of integrity, we lose our trust in them. I know somebody who I confided in one time and he told a bunch of people what I'd confided. Guess what? I never will confide in him again because I don't trust him. I think that is partially the case in this. If you have a check in your spirit, and Mark said this, maybe you talk with a spiritual counselor, a pastor, and say, "What would you do?" You don't have to say her name to anybody. You may have some insight. You may be onto something, and obviously you're not responsible for her decision. But she is your friend, and a friend is someone that we sometimes do have to come alongside of them and confront them in a gentle way.

Mark Cameron: Vulnerability breeds vulnerability. So if you can be vulnerable in the way you bring it up, like, "Hey, there's something that's been really bothering me that I want to bring up because I love you and I care about you." Affirm the relationship. "I'm a little bit hesitant because I don't want to offend you, I don't want to overstep the mark, I don't want you to feel like I'm judging you, but I also want to be a good friend and bring something to your attention. Would it be okay for me to bring that up?"

Notice what I'm doing is I'm affirming the relationship, I'm also sharing what I'm feeling, my hesitation, and then I'm asking for permission. She most likely, you're not sharing what it is that you're going to bring up, so she probably will be curious. But at least that then challenges her to listen to the entirety of what you have to say. And then if she shuts you down, I would respect that.

Brian Perez: We don't know exactly what's going on with Leanne's friend, but if Leanne says she's been doing this for years, she's known this woman for 12 years but she's been doing it all her life she said. This fear that she probably has of if I say something now, they're going to come and get me for all these years' worth of whatever she might owe. And so that if she's having financial struggles now and then to be hit with something where she owes from all this back work.

Dr. Jim Burns: Well that's not Leanne's responsibility though. It's going to be this woman's responsibility to deal with that and she may start right at the point. I mean it's what's so interesting about that is there's no easy answer for this. And we've kind of gone all around with it. But I have a feeling that Leanne's going to do the right thing. Whatever it is, she's got this.

Leanne: Exactly.

Brian Perez: Leanne, thank you for calling us today here on New Life Live. And you know this hour is flying by, it's just about over. Thankfully, we're going to be in the studio for another hour, so keep those calls coming. Sarah, we see you and a couple others; we're going to get to you in just a little bit here on New Life Live. 1-800-229-3000 is the number to call in to speak with Mark Cameron and Dr. Jim Burns.

Another thing that's flying by is the month. Can you believe that we're already at about the halfway point? And we've been telling you about a freedom from fear and anxiety webinar. It's tomorrow night. So we've been telling you about it for a while; it is coming up tomorrow. But don't get anxious; there's still time for you to join us when you call us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE or text the word webinar to 28950 and we'll text you back a link where you can register for the webinar, and we'll also send you a tip sheet.

Tomorrow's webinar starts at 7:00 PM Central time. It includes 30 minutes of Q&A with New Life President Becky Brown. She's also a licensed professional clinical counselor. She'll be joined by the one and only Patsy Clairmont, who knows a thing or two about fear and anxiety. So text the word webinar to 28950 and we'll send you that tip sheet and a registration link to sign up.

Even if you've got something else going on tomorrow night, sign up anyway because we'll send you a playback link once the webinar is ready to playback. That link will be good for seven days. And that tip sheet available too when you text the word webinar to 28950. All right, that is it for this hour of New Life Live, but we're going to remain in the studio for another hour, so keep on calling. 1-800-229-3000 is our number. Mark Cameron, you want to talk to people, don't you?

Mark Cameron: I absolutely love to talk to people.

Dr. Jim Burns: No I don't want to talk to anybody.

Mark Cameron: You don't?

Dr. Jim Burns: I talk all the time. I want to talk to people badly. So they can call.

Brian Perez: Yes indeed. Give us a call. We want to hear from you today and let today be that first day when you start changing your life for the better. 1-800-229-3000.

Intro Voiceover: Thanks so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember, we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to newlife.com to find out more information. And thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing, and we're so glad that you're here.