New Life LIVE

Brian Perez: Happy weekend everyone. You are just in time for New Life LIVE. Brian Perez at your service, joined this hour by a couple of ladies who really want the best for you: clinical psychologist Dr. Alice Benton's here and so is licensed marriage and family therapist Dr. Jackie Mack Harris. Alice, what's on your mind to start us off?

Alice Benton: Are you divorce proofing or divorce inducing your marriage? I've worked with multiple couples who use divorce as a regular argumentative tool. Their wedding rings come off and go back on again. Divorce paperwork is printed out, and it's used as a threat.

Are you divorce inducing or divorce proofing your marriage? With couples like that, especially if they have children in the home, I recommend that we find out how it's affecting the kids. A little girl the other day said, "I think divorce means mom stays in the house, dad gets a different house, and the kids get dropped off in the city by themselves."

Whether or not you think your children hear the arguments, they feel the tension. They come up with their own story of what it means and what will happen to them. It's often a very frightening story, and it's usually their fault in their minds. When people use divorce as a weapon, it probably means there's just hurt that you don't know how to deal with effectively. You probably heard big threats in your family of origin: "Well, fine, I'm leaving." Maybe your parents kept on coming back.

Maybe these relationships I'm talking about won't ever end up in divorce, but if you allow it to be an option, it keeps a sickness brewing in your household, and everybody's affected by that sickness, whether you think they are or not. I think it also invites in spiritual warfare because the enemy loves nothing so much as seeking to bring about discord to eventually kill, steal, and destroy.

If you want to divorce proof your marriage, I encourage you to take these three steps. Lay your weapon down. Make a decision that you will no longer use it as a threat and ask your spouse to join you. Do regular heart checks. My favorite, most effective way to do this is a comfort circle, making sure you're offering your spouse—ideally once a week—"How's your heart doing? I just want to listen. Tell me how you're doing."

The third is: learn to speak each other's love language. Do you know your spouse's three favorite ways of feeling loved? I know that my husband feels loved when he gets a foot massage, a back massage, and when we hold hands. He likes to feel loved in that way, but I can be a workaholic. I feel like I'm loving the family when I'm being productive, when I'm cleaning the house, when I'm earning money. I think this is how I love my family well. Look how hard I'm working! But he doesn't interpret that so much as feeling loved. He appreciates it, but he doesn't feel close. In fact, he feels more distant when I'm off working and doing the dishes. Please take to heart that you can choose today to start divorce proofing your marriage.

Jackie Mack Harris: I think it's a great question and an important stance to take in your marriage: we're divorce proofing it.

Brian Perez: In the same way that you would put a lock on your door to make sure that intruders don't come in, it's a great thing to do to divorce proof your marriage. Thank you, Dr. Alice Benton, for those opening remarks. We're going to take a quick break, then we're going to go right to the phones. We've got Kareem, John, and Sarah calling in. Can't wait to speak with you all. We want to get more people helped today as we head into the weekend. Thanks so much for joining us, for watching, listening, and praying for us and for our listeners at New Life LIVE.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE. We've got a moving sale going on right now in the NewLife.com store. Some amazing deals in there on resources you hear us talk about all the time. You can click the moving sale banner to get started at NewLife.com. Let's go to Toronto, Canada. Here is Kareem, who listens to us on SiriusXM Channel 131. Kareem, how can we help you today?

Kareem: Hi. I recently started back on my journey to get closer to God. The first day that I was reading, I realized by the end of the day that I didn't really have a feel for anything, so I decided to fast until I'm done reading the Bible. The more I get through it, the more I realize that the situation that I'm in doesn't seem like it's acceptable.

I'm not sure where to go forward because me and my partner... I got with a married lady and had two kids with her. So far in the Bible, I'm seeing that we're not allowed to divorce and remarry or marry someone divorced. I'm not sure if I just haven't gotten far enough into it or if my scenario itself is not right.

Jackie Mack Harris: Did you start with Genesis? Are you in the beginning of the Old Testament?

Kareem: No, I'm at Acts right now.

Alice Benton: Kareem, I really respect that you're taking the Word so seriously that before you act, you're wondering, "What does God think about this and what would be best for me in this situation?" Hopefully, you're thinking about that for your family, too. Help us understand something: the mother of your children was married when you started a relationship with her. Is that correct?

Kareem: I had got with her before she got married, and then she disappeared for a bit over a year. When she came back around, she was married, but I didn't respect the marriage. Last I heard, their divorce was finalized, but I honestly don't really ask anybody their information. Whatever is revealed to me, they reveal to me, but I've never really been one to stick my nose in where it's not welcomed, so I just kind of stay in my own corner. From what I last heard, the divorce papers were being finalized.

Jackie Mack Harris: It seems like this would be a place where it would be appropriate for you to stick your nose in. It's okay for you to ask her if the divorce is final if you're going to be in a relationship with her. We want to be able to talk about all the things when we're in a relationship with somebody. Kareem, does she have children with her ex-husband?

Kareem: No, just me.

Alice Benton: And are your children minors?

Kareem: Two and four. The youngest one turns three in August.

Alice Benton: And does she want to get married to you?

Kareem: I believe that's what she said. But we're not at the point to do that yet. For the way the relationship went, a lot of her past traumas she didn't properly heal from, so a lot of the way she dealt with me bled over from that. Essentially, the pain that would come with the aftermath of that, she mostly used to fuel continuing the same things that were hurting me.

It was a losing battle for a while. Now that she's on her path as well, getting closer to God again, she's starting to see a lot of the things that I used to show her. Her mentality was just warped. She kept lying to herself, so whatever reality she wanted to be acceptable is what she would create.

In reality, she was formulating opinions and acting off those opinions that made not much sense. As I would show her what she was doing and the damage it would do to her and me, she wasn't seeing it until the damage was done. When the damage is done, the damage is my fault, so it would fuel her doing more damage to both of us. My question is: is it acceptable for me to move forward with someone who is divorced? As far as I've gotten in the Bible right now, it's saying that it's not.

Jackie Mack Harris: You have built a family with this person. If she is divorced, I believe you can marry her if that is what the two of you decide on. You are in Acts, so you haven't gotten to Romans yet. There's going to be a lot more about grace as you continue to read. We have consequences, which you are living out right now in the difficulty in the relationship.

Our forgiveness and grace come with our acceptance of Christ, but it doesn't eliminate the consequences. I believe that a lot of the laws in the Old Testament and the rules that were set before us are to protect us from ourselves and from the consequences of those behaviors. We see it as this law that God has, but there's a reason for that law, and it's more of a preventative measure.

Man, I don't want you to have to go through this. Don't deal with a divorced person. Well, I'm already dealing with her and have two kids with her. Now, what do we do? We move forward and make life good for these kids. Get into therapy: couples therapy, individual therapy, family therapy, if this has all impacted the children. Scripturally, I believe in grace and that my acceptance of Christ has freed me because he paid it all.

The consequences of my behavior are still my consequences. When I'm tempted, I can flee and turn and make a different choice. In this situation, I don't see a reason why you wouldn't be able to move forward, but I could see that there could still be consequences that you all will live out throughout the duration of life because this choice has already happened. You've already hit on all of the fornication pieces and adultery and all of that, and then there is grace and forgiveness because that's what Jesus went to the cross for.

It's not that we would continue to live in sin, but that we would be able to move forward with the assurance of a relationship with God because we've accepted Christ. That allows us to start to change our life and change our behavior. Living in grace, knowing that I'm saved by grace, gives me the freedom to become all that God wants me to be.

Brian Perez: Has the divorce been finalized?

Jackie Mack Harris: Kareem doesn't have that concrete knowledge, but she's not with the other guy anymore.

Alice Benton: Kareem, I would add that the Bible sets an impossible standard that all of us fall short of. Once we've already fallen short, how do we apply standards that we've already broken? Again, I appreciate your desire to live in God's way the best that you can. I think you have three choices: you either marry a divorced woman, you abandon your children, or you continue in a relationship with her not marrying her but still attempting to co-parent.

None of those are ideal, and all of them fall short of God's best. What's in the best interest of your children, who are the innocent victims in this? I believe that trying to pursue a healthier relationship with their mother is the best route to take, whether or not that leads to marriage. I think you both probably need some good pre-marital counseling before you make that decision.

It's tough for you to open up difficult conversations, and you think you don't have a right to ask things that you absolutely have a right and really pertinent information you need to know. I want you to work to grow in that area and think and pray about the best decision for your kids. Lastly, something really important would be during this time, abstain from physical intimacy with the mother of your children because that clouds your judgment.

Jackie Mack Harris: You're fasting. Fast from that as well.

Brian Perez: Kareem, thank you for calling us today here on New Life LIVE. If you guys do decide to, after counseling and therapy and everything else, we invite you to the Intimacy and Marriage Weekend Workshop. We have one coming up in July. Don't know if you guys will be married by then, but that's three months from now. Might be a little too soon in my opinion, but there are so many different circumstances involved.

That's the weekend of July 24th, and it will be very beneficial for you because you guys have a lot to work out. Thank you so much for calling in today to New Life LIVE. John in Florida, who listens to us on NewLife.com, has a comment about something he heard on Wednesday's show. Go ahead, John.

John: I just wanted to say that I understand about the other addictions that go along with it. I was an alcoholic for a long time, and I started into overeating and other stuff. I just wanted to tell that one lady that she's not the only one who's been through it because with the overeating and everything, I'd rather be fighting type 2 diabetes than running over somebody in a DUI.

Jackie Mack Harris: It's a difference. It's the lesser of the two. Dr. Alice talked about that on that show, that sometimes we do a step-down kind of thing. From alcohol to whatever the next thing is, I'm not going to give any suggestions and put ideas in people's heads, but to whatever the next thing is, and then hopefully eventually through sobriety. It is certainly better to be dealing with this physical response to overeating than to risk harming someone with your addiction.

Alice Benton: John, I hope and encourage that you don't choose just to stay there because there's an even better, freer, happier level to go to. It actually involves something you just did: you just had a mini group with the other caller that you wanted to address about this, where you told her you're not alone. John, by having that experience on a regular basis with other people, you could probably move from the overeating level into "I'm not dealing with any obsessive or addictive behavior. I'm getting healthy and I'm living a freer life." So keep working on it, brother. Don't stop there.

Brian Perez: Thanks for calling in today, John. God bless you, man. Thanks for calling in to New Life LIVE. I'm Brian Perez here with Dr. Jackie Mack Harris and Dr. Alice Benton. We're coming up on our break, but we want to speak with more people. Sarah, you're going to be next. Jenny, we see you as well, so stay right where you are and we'll talk to you in a little bit.

I did briefly mention the Intimacy and Marriage Weekend, and if you are in a marriage where you feel more like roommates than soulmates, then you can join us at this weekend. It's a three-day workshop that helps you move beyond surface fixes to the real issues that divide you. With biblical teaching, licensed Christian counselors, and powerful small-group work, you'll learn to resolve conflict, heal old wounds, and rebuild spiritual, emotional, and physical intimacy.

Alice Benton: One of the fastest, most effective ways to divorce proof your marriage.

Brian Perez: For sure. So if you are ready to fight for your marriage instead of just fighting all the time, go to NewLife.com/IMM to find out more. If you sign up by July 10th, you'll get a discount. You can find out about that on the website NewLife.com or you can call us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE. All right, it is break time. We will be back in just a little bit with more of your calls and questions for us. Thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for following us on social media. We're on TikTok now. We'll be right back on New Life LIVE.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

Guest (Female): Hello, it's Becky Brown. I am so excited to launch our 99 For The 1 partner initiative. Every day we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression—all kinds of ways. It reminds us of the story in Luke 15 where the shepherd leaves the 99 to go rescue the one. We've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life, and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99 For The 1 is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE, 1-800-639-5433, or NewLife.com/9941.

Brian Perez: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE. For our previous caller John, don't forget that we have the Lose It For Life online course beginning at the beginning of May. It's for anyone who's had trouble with weight loss and issues like that because, as we say, it's not about what you're eating, it's about what's eating you. John was saying he replaced addiction with food. As we said, it's the lesser of two evils, but you can be even better than that on a better trajectory. Find out more at NewLife.com. It begins the first week of May.

Sarah in Tampa, Florida, speaking of May. Hello, welcome to New Life LIVE. Thank you for listening to us on the New Life app. What's going on?

Sarah: Hello. Thank you for taking my call. I'm calling because I've been in a marriage—not my first marriage, not my husband's first marriage either. A May-December romance; I'm 53 and he is 71. He had a traumatic brain injury when I met him, and we seemed to be evenly matched because I had my own health issues.

But now, we both were in a car accident last year, and me as the passenger was more injured. As we get older, it seems like he is resentful because he's having to take care of me more. I have a nurse's aide that comes in, but he's very frustrated because he's like, "You're at an age where you should be taking care of me; I'm the senior." I don't know if it's just the traumatic brain injury or his advancing age, but he's becoming very resentful and bitter and often threatening divorce. It's hard to get him to go to marriage counseling. What would you advise? He is a believer, it's just he's not really into the ministry and stuff like I am. I just feel like I'm trying every day, and I just don't have that role anymore as cooking and cleaning and things that he found valuable.

Alice Benton: How awful that on top of this accident, now he's mistreating you because he has to take care of you, and he expected it to be the other way around. Your injuries sound like they were severe and maybe they'll be chronic.

Sarah: Yes, definitely. I hurt my knee; I walk really funny. There was just a lot of stuff involved. I kept going to three-times-a-week treatment. It was very painful. I already had mobility challenges and already was on a walker, and so now, really the only place I'm mobile is in the pool. I'm just facing probably a long road back, and I can't promise him anything. We already were kind of more homebound. There's just a lot of pressure on us, and I've been trying to encourage him to have friends and have hobbies, and he's just very solitary. He doesn't want to go to church. I just feel like the marriage is going to implode without some outside force helping us. I've been trying to call New Life and get counselors on the app, and he's just really not game for it.

Alice Benton: Is this a change in his character, or has he always been a bit irritable and prone to resentment?

Sarah: He's always been irritable, mostly because of the TBI. He's always been kind of rebellious. I don't know what part of the brain was injured years ago. His family is not been very forthcoming to tell me about anything about his medical state. He's always kind of muddled through it. When I met him, he was on marijuana, so I think that and the drinking kind of quelled some of the anxieties he has. Now he's stripped of all that, and he's trying to quit smoking, so the irritability has gotten really out of control. I just mostly try to stay out of the line of fire and just pray for him. It's hard.

Alice Benton: Do you know if he has struggled with pornography use during your marriage?

Sarah: Definitely. When I met him, he said he was over it, but we argued about it. It was definitely a point of contention. He struggled with pornography and some impotence issues, and he would lash out at me and cut me off romantically. It's been a battle. He nitpicks little arguments over almost nothing. It becomes like an argument of control, like I'm not allowed to make any decision on hardly anything. It's very hurtful. I consider him pretty abusive.

Alice Benton: It's been a painful marriage all along. It's gotten worse since your accident and you're more reliant on him now, but it's always been tough. Has he never been willing to get help throughout the whole marriage?

Sarah: To his credit, he did go to a couple different marriage counselors with me. One moved jobs, and he wasn't really... we didn't have clear goals. Some counselors have different approaches. He was a younger counselor and he just moved away. Then one counselor tried with us for a while, but my husband just would get very angry during sessions. She just kept working with us, but we never got anywhere communication-wise. She finally gave up on us and was like, "I can't help you any further."

Then we tried a thing called Turn Around Marriage, and that helped for a while. Then my husband was like... it was like more of a marriage coaching type thing, and my husband seemed very positive. And then he was like, "No, that's just power positivity, I don't want all that." He didn't want to do the homework and stuff anymore because they started delving into childhood and delving into some of the deeper thinking stuff. I'm thinking that stirred up a lot of stuff for him. He does go to individual counseling, and I think that does kind of... I do think that's promising, but I do think that's making him focus on me as the problem and the negative source of his anger.

Brian Perez: Sarah, we've got to take a break. Hang on, we're not done speaking with you yet. We've got a few more questions and then we'll give you our advice, so stay right there on the phone. Jenny, you'll be up next. Thank you all for calling in today. Please keep them in your prayers. We'll be right back on New Life LIVE.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

Jackie Mack Harris: Sarah, have you ever used the comfort circle?

Sarah: No, actually, I have not.

Jackie Mack Harris: There's a book in our library called How We Love, and I think it would be beneficial for you to read it. Maybe leave it lying around; your husband might be interested. He's already in therapy, and like you said, you are probably the focus of his therapy and he is processing his whatever feelings about that.

If you could do a comfort circle with him and maybe let him talk through what it's like for him to have this change. Sometimes it's a matter of stress and it comes out as aggression. A couple years back, I fell and there were days where my husband was snappier than usual and seemed irritated, certainly the day that I fell. I fell roller skating, and he hates that we roller skate.

So me falling and breaking three bones during the pandemic where he had to sit in the parking lot and couldn't come inside to find out what was going on... it was all bad. But we talked after I recovered, and what he was able to share is that it was really scary for him. Like he didn't know what I do, right? All of those things are now having to be picked up, and it just added a weight to him that he didn't see coming, and it was frustrating because he felt this could have been avoided. But I had to give him space to speak because it was a scary thing.

I think I've been through that with him before. He has a long-term illness, and when all the symptoms first started, there were times where I was frustrated with him because I felt like if you don't do what you're supposed to do, that impacts me. I'm going to then be your caregiver, and we're only in our 50s. I just think I feel for your husband because it is tough being a family caregiver. In the marriage, he didn't see this coming, and so I hear that he feels blindsided and it feels very abusive to you the way that he is taking his frustration and fears out on you. So that's not okay at all. A comfort circle in reverse could hopefully help him hear you and hear how his treatment of you is affecting your recovery.

Alice Benton: Sarah, I want to teach you to be intolerant, which may sound strange. But as you started to go through the list of all he's been involved in and the ways he's treated you the whole time, I'm worried that you're willing to tolerate too much that is not healthy for either one of you. Now, if true change is starting to come out of his individual counseling, then there's reason to wait around and see what happens.

But I hope you'll make an appointment to speak with his individual counselor to provide information and to decide, whether with that counselor or another, what you're willing to put up with and what you're no longer willing to tolerate. If he's not working on some of these things, then this is a very sick marriage that will continue to hurt you.

At the same time, you might be reminding him of other people who depended on him too much in his life, whether that's his previous wife, maybe his parents leaned on him and made him an adult too early on. This could be hitting an old wound, and it would be good to ask about that. Lastly, you two may need more help, and so that may involve paying for more help, alerting your church and asking for volunteers who will come over and cook and clean and help you out because the burden may be too great for him to bear.

Brian Perez: Sarah, thanks for your phone call. The book that Jackie was mentioning is called How We Love. It's available in the NewLife.com store. We've also got an article at NewLife.com called Recover from Emotional Numbness with the Comfort Circle. We'll drop links to both there in the show notes. Thanks so much for calling in today to New Life LIVE. To Jenny we go, she's in Austin, Texas, watching us on YouTube. Hi there, Jenny. How can we help you today?

Jenny: Hi. I have a question about the relationships in the extended family. My question is: how can I handle relationships as a believer in your extended family or as a colleague where I have come through with a lot of frictions, bitterness, envy, and betrayal build on and on for many years, and still I am in a situation that I have to face them much often in my day-to-day life?

Brian Perez: How have you been dealing with that since you've been facing them in your day-to-day life?

Jenny: So I do my daily devotional and some verse touch my heart for that day, especially give me a strength for carrying out my cross for that day or for a particular situation or some friction, some situation that I'm handling at that point of time. But then I constantly feel that I'm in a battle and a coming round and round and round in the same place. I think I'm not moving forward. I'm not able to do my personal goals or professional goals. I'm not able to move on with what's in my heart or give good care to my children. I'm like physically present, mentally absent most of the time.

Jackie Mack Harris: Because at certain times your mind is constantly thinking about what has happened or what will happen, how do I face this? That sounds like ruminating and catastrophizing. You're reviewing and rehearsing in your mind over and over, and that's taking up a lot of time and energy. It also produces the emotion. Our imagination is really powerful. If in your mind you are playing the scene, then you are putting yourself back in that scene.

Your nervous system can't tell the difference between reality and history, presence and history, reality and imagination. When you are in your mind rehearsing it, thinking about it, projecting what might happen if you have a conversation, thinking about what they must be thinking about, you are bringing yourself into those situations. They're not, but you are in your imagination. One of the things you can do is to work with a therapist to stop ruminating so much, to maybe start to journal these thoughts and be able to take them into therapy and process because sometimes the thoughts are fleeting, just a random thought. Sometimes they're negative thoughts about people or about ourselves that just aren't true, but because we're rehearsing them, we're feeling the pain of them.

Alice Benton: Jenny, we can understand that you are mentally absent because it may be the only way you can escape from people that are unsafe but you're stuck with them. There are a couple of steps to take with that. One is to decide whether or not to address these betrayals directly, and most of us have to work our way up to being able to do that because it feels like an impossible task.

When we address it directly, we bring into the open what occurred. Not everybody, the betrayers, are able to hear that. Often they have a bad reaction to it; they deny it, they minimize it, they diminish it. But it's our job to ask for what we need. That may be, "I need you to admit what happened. I wish you would make amends, I wish you would ask for my forgiveness."

If they won't do what we need, then we figure out how to limit our exposure to them. If you have to live in the same house, that can be at times being physically present but mentally absent. But it sounds like that's hampering your ability to parent your children well. So to strategize how to limit your interaction with these people that have betrayed you while figuring out how to stay safe enough to be more present with your children is crucial to your parenting.

One way to do that is to choose to be polite to the perpetrators of the betrayal but to keep conversation limited, to not disclose much information about what you're thinking and feeling, to not let yourself be vulnerable to them. I know that's a lot easier said than done, but as Jackie pointed out, a good clinician can help you suss out how to best do that. Lastly, sometimes we need an exit plan. We need to get a job now to start earning the money so that months or a year down the road, we can separate from the betrayer that is not willing to be a safe person.

Brian Perez: Jenny, thanks for calling in today. A couple of resources come to mind. There's a book in the New Life store called How You Think Determines the Course of Your Life. We've also got an article at NewLife.com called Six Critical Steps to Courageous Confrontation. If you decide to go that route, we'll give you some help on how to do that. Jenny, thanks for calling in today to New Life LIVE. Kay, you will be up next when we come back from the break, so hang on just a little bit longer. We will be right back here on New Life LIVE.

To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE. Thank you so much for praying for the folks who call in to New Life LIVE and share their deep, dark, painful personal struggles. It's not easy for them to call, and we thank God that he gives them the courage to call in.

Please also consider making a financial gift to help us consider doing this work that God's given us to do. We've got several ways to give, including our website NewLife.com or on the phone at 1-800-NEW-LIFE, or you can text NLM to 28950. Please also consider becoming one of our monthly supporters. You can find out all about the 99 For The 1 partner program we have, including a video that our team put together at NewLife.com/9941. Here is Kay, who is in Lansing, Michigan. She watches us on NRBTV, which is DirecTV Channel 378. Welcome, Kay, to New Life LIVE.

Kay: Hi there. How are you doing? I'm a call from down south, a bit of a transplant. Very turbulent family history, to put it mildly. Three brothers: two older, one younger. The second of the oldest one, who was the meanest one, is dying. I tried for years to stay in touch with them and about 20, 25 years ago, I gave up. I quit.

Brian Perez: When you made that decision to step away from trying to engage them in relationship, did it change anything in your life?

Kay: It freed me up.

Jackie Mack Harris: So you got free from the turmoil of the family and your role of continually needing to try to mend fences and keep the relationship going. It sounds like now, because he's dying, they're trying to pull you back in.

Kay: Yeah. It's like I'm supposed to feel bad and it's like, not really, I don't. I feel bad for one of his daughters; we are close. I will be there to support her. She keeps trying to convince herself he's the father that she wanted instead of who he really was. But it's like, how do I deal with the other two? Because they're going to... I don't want to cause problem, I don't want to cause a fight. But to be honest, I just flat out don't care. And they don't want to see me, either. His daughter asked him, "Do you want her to come see you?" and he goes, "No." Well, I'm sure he doesn't.

Jackie Mack Harris: So when your other brothers bring it up to you and you say, "I don't care," what do they say?

Kay: Well, I try to be a little more tactful than say "I don't care." Because the three brothers, they remained close. My family is all from the South and it's old Southern, so it's that old mentality of the man is the important one and women are just there for support and to do what they're told. I broke away from that a long time ago.

Brian Perez: That's why you moved all the way up to Michigan.

Kay: I was born up here, actually. But I know, I still get that Southern thing going. It just is. But yeah, they maintained very close relationships. My sister and I were... they never bothered about us once.

Alice Benton: Kay, what do they expect of you? What do they want to see or hear from you as your brother's dying?

Kay: I think they want me to be concerned and go, "Oh, that's so terrible." Well, you know, he made choices in life, and his health is bad because of some of those choices. My attitude is, okay, you grow up and certain things are instilled in you, but once you grow up and you look around and you say, "Hey, this is probably not the way I should be. These are probably not the things I should do." And you grow up, you make choices, and he chose not to.

Alice Benton: And you've grown beyond the old family system. You made healthier choices and they did not follow suit. I would guess he never repented despite losing relationship with you. Because I think I heard you say he doesn't want to see you either.

Kay: No, his daughter asked him, "You want her to come see you?" and he goes, "No." Well, I'm sure he doesn't.

Alice Benton: So Kay, I liken this to stepping away from an alcoholic family. Everyone else is mad at you because you don't drink anymore, so you're not fun, you're not part of the party, and you're disloyal to the family because you no longer drink. Maybe they're jealous of the stability that you've gotten in your life and the health that you have managed to develop because you're not drinking anymore.

For your family, it's more about allowing mean behavior and not confronting it. That's what they're still protecting. You destabilized that because you left. It's often difficult for an unhealthy family to appreciate or understand a person who chooses to be healthy. I hope that you'll have someone go with you—maybe it's your niece—but somebody who appreciates health and stability and who knows why you're doing what you're doing to help you stay strong.

Sometimes we just need a wingman; we need a buddy to go in there with us to help us. Have a few key phrases for when your brothers ask or wonder why you aren't coming to visit him before he passes away or why you don't feel bad about this. You might just say things like, "Well, that just doesn't work for me right now," or "That's just not part of my plans at this time. I understand that it's tough for you, and I'm sure my behavior is confusing for you, but that's just not the way I'm going to go about it." Have phrases to help you stay firm in what you've decided to do.

Jackie Mack Harris: And because you're family, oftentimes people think you're supposed to continue to tolerate abuse from your siblings or your parents even. Sometimes you really do have to protect yourself. I like what Dr. Alice said: have some things ready to say. I wonder if there's a part of you that is wondering if you are wrong because it will make them feel bad.

My response to that is: you get to protect yourself because they aren't going to do what is necessary to keep you safe. They're not concerned about whether you feel bad. They just want what they want, what they need in order to feel good. Being able to say, "I don't have that kind of relationship with him." I can see that it's upsetting to you. Like with his daughter, you're grieving for her loss and supportive of her. You're not being cruel and acting as if this doesn't matter in her life. It does matter in her life. You just don't have that relationship with him. That is what I would say to those siblings. Respond with things like, "I'm not going to be able to give you what you want. I don't have that kind of relationship with him." Just hold your ground there. There's no reason for you to subject yourself to further abuse because he's at the end of his life.

Alice Benton: And prayerfully wonder if God would nudge you to say, "He mistreated me, and that's why I'm not willing to go."

Brian Perez: Kay, thanks for calling in today to New Life LIVE. We invite you to join us for one of our life recovery groups. We've got them all over the place: Michigan, Texas, deep down South Texas even. God bless you. Thank you so much for calling in today to New Life LIVE. Thanks so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to NewLife.com to find out more information. And thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing, and we're so glad that you're here.