New Life LIVE

Guest (Male): Welcome to the New Life LIVE podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's Word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

New Life: We're so glad you've joined us today on New Life LIVE. Today we're going to do things a little differently. We're going call you and tell you what we're going through. I'm joking, of course. Besides, I don't have your phone number, but here's ours at 1-800-229-3000.

We'll be in the studio for two hours today. It's Holy Week, also known as Passion Week, and today, Wednesday, commemorates Judas's agreement to betray Jesus, which we read about in the Gospel of Matthew. Perhaps betrayal is part of your story. Our Savior knows your pain all too well. We can talk about it today with clinical psychologist Dr. Alice Benton and New Life President Becky Brown, who's a licensed professional clinical counselor as well. Becky wears many hats, and we are so thankful for her leadership of New Life. Becky, what's on your mind to start us off today?

Becky Brown: Well, apparently we are of the same mind, Brian, because I want to talk about what is commonly known in some denominations, some churches, as Spy Wednesday. It is the betrayal of Judas. It's found in a couple of different places, the one that you mentioned, but also Luke 22, John 13.

It's such a shock because we read this story, and you may be familiar with it. He sold out Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, and yet he was one of his closest disciples. He was part of the group that was going to change the world. What in the world got into him? Well, we know it was the enemy that got into him. The devil actually got into him.

We judge Judas's actions, but we've also betrayed Jesus when we seek our own ways as opposed to following God's will. We've helped so many people here at New Life that have walked through the pain of betrayal in all of its forms.

The pain, the anger, the disbelief is felt to the core of the one who's betrayed, and we also hear the pain of the betrayer, the one that got caught up in a lie. The lie was that God's way wasn't the best way, and then the guilt and shame that devastate that person.

Ann Voskamp, who's an author, writes, "Judas betrayed one of his closest friends to buy what he thought was worth it, only to realize he had sold his soul and made his soul a slave to the dark." Maybe you've been betrayed, or you are the betrayer. There's hope and healing. That's the key message that we want to have made known.

It's not just one step in restoration. It's not just "I wish this would go away and I don't have to think about it anymore," but it's literally a lifelong journey of healing. It's possible because of Jesus's death and resurrection. That's the hope. That is the possibility of healing for you.

In Hebrews 12:2, it says, "We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, the champion who initiates and perfects our faith. Because of the joy awaiting him, he endured the cross, disregarding its shame. Now he is seated in the place of honor beside God's throne."

Voskamp goes on to say, "Let this Holy Week dismantle everything that isn't about eternal things. The Wednesday of Holy Week can either be Spy Wednesday, where our preparations for Easter betray Jesus to buy what it's not really worth, or it can be Holy Week, Silent Wednesday, where we quiet our hearts, listen to what God has to say to us, and focus on the true truth." We want to help you do any and all of that on this week, as well as every day that we are here with you. Alice, any thoughts on what Becky just said?

Alice Benton: When we go our own way, whether it's betraying people or betraying the Lord, we are usually trying to meet a legitimate need, but we're doing it in an unhealthy way. Let us help you get to the internal needs so you can walk the straight path that leads to life and salvation. 1-800-229-3000 is the number to call this hour or next hour. We're going to be here both hours for you here on New Life LIVE.

Guest (Male): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

New Life: New Life is moving, and we're having a moving sale. This is your chance to stock up on Bibles, devotionals, books, and recovery resources at some of the lowest prices we've ever offered, with select items starting at just $1. The more you buy, the less heavy lifting Alice and Becky will have to do at the warehouse. These prices won't happen again, so don't wait. Inventory is limited, and once these items are gone, they are gone. Visit the store at NewLife.com and click on the moving sale banner to connect to some great deals.

1-800-229-3000 is the number to call us today here on New Life LIVE, and we're going to go right to the phones. Here is Virginia calling us from Dallas, Texas. She listens on KWRD. Welcome, Virginia, to New Life LIVE.

Virginia: Thank you, and thank you to you for doing what you do.

New Life: We appreciate that. How can we help you?

Virginia: Well, my husband left me mid-July, totally shocked. Our divorce was final mid-December. I'm in the home and I'm dealing with a lot of anger. I'm left with the task of getting the house ready to sell.

New Life: Virginia, what a shock. Totally upended your life, and now you are overwhelmed with a burden that might be too big for you to bear on your own. Have you found out since why your husband left in the way he did?

Virginia: I am on disability and I have limitations. Some of them are... how do I put this lightly? I cannot be intimate with him. He says that's a need, and he said it several times. The last time he said it and I told him, I said, "I have needs too, and there's nothing I can do." So that's probably the first thing on the list.

New Life: How long were you guys married?

Virginia: 1987 was when we got married. 39 years.

New Life: Virginia, do you have minor children still in the home with you?

Virginia: No. She's 34 and has a family, and I have two grandkids. She's messed up as in she's angry too. She told me yesterday she doesn't trust either me or him. I've got enough on my plate, and then she shares that with me.

Becky Brown: Virginia, who are your support people? Who's around you?

Virginia: My church family, number one, because my own family is not supportive.

Becky Brown: The challenge you have now, Virginia, is you're obviously hurt. He didn't keep up the vows in sickness and in health, and you don't just quit when it doesn't work right. It's "how do we work through this?" Are you guys still talking, or is the relationship completely severed?

Virginia: Initially he wanted to see me a lot, and it was difficult. I finally told him, "You know, us seeing each other, I don't want to." So we text, because even talking on the phone is uncomfortable to me. I know it's because I'm angry. One time we were on the phone and he kept pushing... he'll get out of the left field, he'll say stuff. I said, "We need to get off the phone because I'm going to say something I'm going to regret." He started pushing me and I said "No," and we hung up.

Becky Brown: Virginia, the challenge that you have now is how do you heal, get rid of the anger? You're talking about getting the house ready to sell. I can hear the bitterness and the resentment. It's all justified, I get that. However, it's going to keep you stuck. I would suggest if you haven't already that you get with a therapist to work through this or even in a group. There's lots of different ways to process this, but the anger is right to the surface and now it's impacting your relationship with your daughter. It's just spilling out. I understand it, it just needs to have a space and a place to go.

Virginia: Right. Yes.

New Life: Virginia, I've heard it said that holding on to anger is like holding a hot coal in your hand, waiting for the day you get to throw it at the person that hurt you, but of course if you hold it too long, it ends up hurting you more.

But there's an adaptive and holy side to anger. We can think about the times that Jesus displayed intense anger, aggressive anger. He turned the tables over in the temple because his adaptive anger was for justice, for setting things right. Within you, there is a need and a drive for justice and to protect yourself. It is unjust what your ex-husband has done to you and to your daughter, and it's limited what you can do against that, especially now that the divorce has been finalized.

Finding a place to channel that energy of adaptive anger so that you can protect yourself and build a stable foundation now without your husband in your life is important. The hurtful anger is when you let it simmer in you and maybe even fantasize about the bad things that could happen to the ex-spouse, maybe even wishing evil upon them. No? That doesn't ever cross your mind?

Virginia: No. The thing that's really awkward is I am not an angry person because I saw what it did to my mom and other people in my life. But now I'm dealing with this and I finally just here recently realized I am angry.

New Life: What did anger do to your mom? What was the worst that it did to her?

Virginia: Like you said, the bitterness and her depression got really bad.

New Life: The solution to that for you not to end up in heavy bitterness is to have the outlet where you talk about it, but also where you figure out how to take action. We know that happens best in counseling and in a group setting. Those are the two places that are the best outlets.

But then there's the issue of your daughter. She doesn't trust you and that is so unfair because it's your ex-husband that got you all into this mess. I'm going to challenge you to do something really difficult and unfair to you, but it will benefit you, and that's to offer to her, "Daughter, when you're ready, I want to hear about you not being able to trust me. I'm just going to be a listener. I'm not going to try to defend myself. I'm not going to throw your dad under the bus. I just want to understand why you can't trust me and what I can do to repair the trust."

Virginia: Yeah.

New Life: Virginia, thanks for calling in today. We're going to send you a registration for our Freedom from Fear and Anxiety webinar that's coming up on April 14. That's about two weeks from now. You can find out all the details about it on our website, NewLife.com, or by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE. You can text the word "webinar" and we'll send you back a registration link, as well as a couple of tip sheets that can help you. We also have an article on our website, NewLife.com. It's called "Anger: A Signal to Action."

1-800-229-3000 is our number, and now let's talk to Tony in Washington D.C., listening on WAVA. Welcome, Tony, to New Life LIVE.

Tony: Yes, hi. How are you doing?

New Life: Doing well. Thanks for calling. How can we help you?

Tony: I was inquiring about if I could get help with marriage counseling with me and my wife. We're separated.

New Life: Did you say we're separated, or you're separated?

Tony: Yes, we're technically separated. I'm looking for some counseling to help us.

Becky Brown: What's going on, Tony?

Tony: I had a domestic incident in my house that caused me to be put out and I'm just trying to reconcile.

New Life: Was there physical aggression between you and your wife, Tony?

Tony: Not towards my wife, but towards her daughter. I gave her a beating with a belt and it escalated to being charged.

New Life: How old is the little girl?

Tony: 17 and a half.

New Life: And this was recent?

Tony: Beginning of the year.

New Life: Was this the first incident of aggression that was concerning to your wife and her daughter?

Tony: In the marriage, it's the third time. Not a beating, but the third time of aggression in over five years of marriage.

Becky Brown: Tony, what have you done as far as your own healing journey? You know, a lot of times what we want is to just go back and act like this didn't happen and hope for the best, but you just said that this has happened repeatedly. I'm sure you've heard that doing the same thing over and over again is insanity.

We want to have healing. You need to become a healed and whole man before you even consider what reconciliation looks like. If she were talking to us, telling her side of the story, we would say that to her as well. You have to exhibit that you have done a lot of work to get to the core of where this aggression is coming from.

The other thing, too, is to make amends has to come from a place where you recognize what you've done. What you did to this girl, it doesn't matter what the relationship is as far as it's her daughter—that makes it worse—but there's something inside of you, Tony, that's angry, that is not being able to control those big feelings. Have you worked with a therapist, social worker, any kind of program at all to address this anger?

Tony: Yes, but it's not anger alone. It's that I just come from a world where your parents are asking you and telling you to do something and not listening, you get a beating.

Becky Brown: But Tony, she's 17 and a half. She's 17 and a half, and there are different ways to deal with adults. I understand that that's your background, but it didn't work for you, did it? In five years of trying to talk to a person...

Tony: I understand that. And so in the five years, what did you do to address the inability to get through or to parent? We've got a break coming up. Hold on, Tony, and we'll get to you right after this break, but I'm glad you're calling. I want to affirm you in reaching out for help and I want to also encourage you to keep moving into the direction of being a whole and healthy and healed man that your wife would want to trust and resume a relationship with, and the stepdaughter could see you as a safe person. We've got a long way to go before we get there. I'm sure she has caused a lot of trouble and you're trying to discipline her. We can help you to figure out both how to repair and then what appropriate healthy discipline is. Tony, don't hang up. We'll continue to talk to you when we come back from the break.

Guest (Male): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

New Life: We're talking to Tony who called in from Washington D.C. 1-800-229-3000 is the number. Tony, what do you think of what you've heard so far from Alice and Becky?

Tony: They made a comment about me being angry. I didn't say nothing about me being angry. They categorized me as having another problem, and I'm not angry.

New Life: Tony, what would you call your part of the problem?

Tony: Three parts. Well, one part is bad judgment. The Bible says be angry but sin not. The Bible also says "Spare the rod, spoil the child." I think I've done pretty good for over five years of putting up with not listening, and I'm not perfect.

New Life: Tony, I'm going to challenge you with what I'm about to say, because if I try to put myself in your wife's shoes, what I hear from you sounds mostly like defending your position. Your wife and your stepdaughter are scared of you, and they don't know when you'll next be too aggressive, even to the point that maybe the police need to get involved.

I believe you that your desire is to guide your stepdaughter, and yet you're going about it and you're defending the way you've gone about it in a way that you're not safe yet, Tony. You're not safe for them. So if you want to reunite with your wife, you're going to have to be willing for God to humble your heart a whole lot more to the point that you're not defending yourself. Instead, you're saying to them, "I haven't done enough to be trustworthy. I haven't repaired. I've been physically aggressive with you, and I'm wrong." You're not there yet, are you, Tony?

Tony: I think I'm working on it.

New Life: You didn't tell me "no," Tony, and you didn't push back about what I said, and that gives me hope that you are working on it. Of course you're calling us, so I know that there is humility in you, but you're going to have to let it grow a whole lot more and you'll have to drop your defensiveness.

Tony: I'm not being defensive. I'm being straightforward and honest.

Becky Brown: I can hear the pain in your voice too, Tony, that you're hurting, and we hear that. I understand these things are very complex. When we talk about the word "anger," you're right, the Lord says don't sin in your anger, and anger can be a very useful tool. I hear what your thought process was—that she has to listen, this is a part of raising children—but like I said before, she's too old to be at that place now.

We're usually done in that category of raising kids when they're young, and I would never advocate for a beating. It's just not ever okay because what happens is that we lose control as adults. I'm not here to talk about spanking or not spanking, but what I want you to hear is that the anger is the frustration built from her not listening. You said that a couple of times—that she didn't listen, she won't listen. And that's frustrating, and then it becomes a source of anger, and then you try to correct it.

Now, I understand you received a charge. Have you served any kind of sentence? Did you pay reparations? Did you take care of that part of this journey?

Tony: Yes, I took care of that.

Becky Brown: Okay. And now your desire is to have your family reunited again. What is your wife saying to you at this point?

Tony: She don't know.

Becky Brown: Right. She needs you to be safe. That's what Alice and I are talking about.

New Life: So Tony, the best way to display that you're becoming a safer man is to be able to show your wife and stepdaughter evidence of the ongoing work that you're doing. When we get calls, Tony, from people struggling with addiction, we tell them things like 90 meetings in 90 days, individual therapy, one of our intensive workshops. It's packing in all the work so that the group leader, your individual therapist, can tell your wife and your daughter about the work you're doing, because you won't be able to prove with words that you're becoming trustworthy. You'll have to show it in action and through feedback from other people, hopefully professionals, that you're working with.

Tony: Another way of action is demonstrating that in the relationship.

Becky Brown: Give us an example of what you think that looks like, Tony.

Tony: Showing the opposite of what I've done.

Becky Brown: And I'm sure you've done that before, since this is the third time that this has occurred, right?

Tony: No, the question you asked was "Was there any other type of aggression?" and I said this was the third time of aggression. The first time that I took my belt off to give her a beating... but in over five years, there's been three times of aggression.

New Life: Tony, you're right that by showing the opposite behavior, that is a way to build trust. But we can't white-knuckle and just change an ingrained belief and behavior system that you grew up with. You were beat, I imagine, many times when you were young, so it's deeply ingrained in you, and that doesn't change overnight and it doesn't change just because of a decision on your part. It changes through a process of sanctification and growth led by professionals, and that's how you'll show them over time that you're becoming different.

This is New Life LIVE. 1-800-229-3000 is our number. We've got to take a break. We'll be back in just a moment.

Becky Brown: Hello, it's Becky Brown and I am so excited to launch our 99 for the One partner initiative. Every day, we hear from people all over the world who are looking for hope. They've been lost in a relationship struggle, addiction, anxiety, depression—all kinds of ways.

It reminds us of the story in Luke 15 where the shepherd leaves the 99 to go rescue the one. We've seen God work in the lives of so many people over the years here at New Life, and we want to invite you to be part of what God is doing. 99 for the One is our partner program that you can give to the ministry on a monthly basis to make sure that we continue to reach out to the lost. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE or visit NewLife.com/99forone.

Guest (Male): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

New Life: All right, 1-800-229-3000, the number to call us today for the rest of this hour and all of next. Dr. Alice Benton and Becky Brown are here and we've got Tony on the phone. You still with us, Tony?

Tony: Still here.

Alice Benton: Tony, I believe your parents were wrong in how severe the beatings were for you, and they may have had the right motivation—they wanted you to be on the straight and narrow path—but they went over the top. I try to imagine as a little boy how terrifying that must have been when you started to see the signs of mounting anger in your home, when they pulled out the belt and they hurt you too badly. Tony, if you can recall that fear you had as a little boy, how scary it was in your household at times, it might help you have more empathy and compassion both for yourself—that you've been abused—but then also for your stepdaughter that you abused her even if you were trying to correct her.

Tony: I totally disagree with you in regards to me, because part of the problem with society is because they've given more rights to the child. I know because of child abuse, but they give more rights to the child than they do the parent to correct their children. I think a lot of things would be in check if the children were not given so many rights. I understand from an analytical standpoint why the children need to be given so many rights, because of the horrors of history towards children being abused.

New Life: So Tony, when you called in to our show today, what did you expect us to say to you? Did you expect us to agree with you, did you expect us to say "yeah, you did the right thing"? Why did you call?

Tony: My initial call is for help and reconciliation and working on my marriage. Like I said, no one's perfect.

Becky Brown: Right, Tony. Here's two things, because we want to help you in that. We can absolutely connect you with a therapist that can help you and your wife get together. The thing that we're talking about with children, there's a lot of reasons why society is in the mess that it is today, but it's not all just on this topic of disciplining children. It's very diverse.

But what I want for you to know is that the help that you want for your relationship with your wife, for your marriage to be reunited, is going to require you to have a lot of support in understanding the humility process. That's what Alice was talking about before. We have a phrase here we use in recovery all the time, called "humble down." Get curious, not furious, ask more questions.

Then the issue with why your stepdaughter isn't listening, that has to be figured out. Family dynamics are very powerful. So while we may disagree, and it sounds like we do, on the approach of correction with kids, we want to get you the help that you need. We want to get your marriage back on track, actually we want to have a whole and healthy family, and we will connect you with some folks that can help you with that.

New Life: And the solutions we've given you, Tony, are what we see over and over again work the best and most effectively when there's been such a rupture that you're asked to leave and your family's not ready to have you back yet. So even though we disagree about the right and wrong of what took place, I hope that you'll trust us that the process we're describing to you is the most successful process for reconciliation.

Please consider that as your stepdaughter doesn't listen to you, what I find in my work, Tony, is that that often means she doesn't feel heard. When we take the time to listen to our children and find out how hard it has been for her that her parents aren't together, how hard it's been for her to get used to having a stepdad who sometimes is too aggressive, being willing to listen to her will probably build a bridge over time in addition to what we've already been encouraging you to do.

What do you guys think of the old saying "children should be seen and not heard"? That goes back maybe hundreds of years, but it's just one of those things. Like what you just said right now, Tony's stepdaughter feels like maybe she isn't being heard. How much feedback should we get from our kids?

Alice Benton: Misbehavior is almost always a sign that our children are troubled and struggling on the inside. Usually they're feeling overwhelming emotions that they don't know how to handle. That doesn't justify misbehavior, and we shouldn't turn a blind eye to misbehavior, but when we combine the appropriate level of discipline with the willingness to draw out our children's hearts with gentle curiosity, we usually both find that they've got some big issue that they're wrestling with and they don't know how to solve it. We help them solve it. The misbehavior tends to decrease, but it's the combination of appropriate discipline with listening.

New Life: Tony, stay on the phone. We're going to send you a registration link for our webinar that's coming up tomorrow. It's called "Understanding Your Attachment Style." Everyone else, you can find out more about it by texting the word "webinar" to 28950.

Tony, stay right where you are. And Wayne in Ardmore, Oklahoma, similar situation with you? Wayne, you there?

Wayne: Yes, sorry about that. I didn't know if you're talking to me or not. Sorry.

New Life: I am. What's going on, man?

Wayne: I just wanted to touch up on and put my input on the situation, because I'm not in the same exact situation that he's in, but I'm really close to it. I'm only 20 years old. I'm a young kid. I'm still trying to figure out life.

New Life: I'm way older than that and I'm still trying to figure out life, Wayne, so join our club. You're with the right people, man.

Wayne: My experience like for me, everybody has different experiences, you know what I mean? I have a baby mama, or the mother of my son. I have my own child biologically, but when I got with her, she was pregnant with her daughter. Before I was with her, I didn't know how to be a dad. I was fresh out of high school. I was trying to get my life going and I fell in love with her. By God, I stepped up, and that kid, that baby that she has, taught me how to be a dad.

Everything was good in the beginning. We had a good little family going and I was going to work, doing my part. But as time went on, relationships kind of lose that spark. But I really feel for what he's saying because nobody's really seeing how much he's tolerated. When I'm saying that...

Becky Brown: Wayne, are you feeling that way towards one of your children right now?

Wayne: No, no. I've been in that spot where I've tolerated a lot of disrespect and I was the one that was trying to talk about things and come to a conclusion to where we wouldn't have those little silly arguments and things like that, and then have the big blow-ups and outbursts whenever they didn't want to talk about whatever. I've been there and so I know. I can't tell you for sure like, "yeah, he's not doing anything wrong," but I know for a fact that he's trying. I know he's trying. There's no way he's not trying and I know exactly how much disrespect is shown towards him, or like his daughter not listening. That could be caused by something as simple as how she's seen him get treated by others, like her mom.

Becky Brown: We get that, Wayne. We totally get that there are two sides. But here's what we're trying to say to you, to him, to all of us: we have our own work to do. In parenting, it is the two of you figuring out how we're going to raise these kids, what's going to be acceptable, how does that work, and there's lots of conversations that have to be going on, not to mention the fact that the stressors that we have in our day-to-day life. We'll talk a little bit more about this after the break.

New Life: Yeah, we do have to go to break now, but we'll come back and continue our conversation with Wayne and everyone else who calls in. We're going to be here for two hours today, so call in. 1-800-229-3000.

Guest (Male): To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

New Life: Hey, if you're feeling stuck in addiction, grief, anxiety, or broken relationships, you need to hear these truths: you are not alone, and it's never too late to change the end of your story. Connecting with a life recovery group will provide a safe place for you to shed the shame and get raw accountability rooted in biblical truth. You'll discover a shared commitment to end unhealthy behaviors once and for all with a community that won't let you settle. We have over 735 life recovery groups that meet around the country and online, even across the globe. Visit NewLife.com to find information on life recovery groups and resources. And let's go back to Wayne in Ardmore, Oklahoma. You still with us, Wayne?

Wayne: Yes, I'm still here.

New Life: All right, what do you think of what you've heard so far before the break?

Wayne: I just... I'm not trying to ramble on and make it a whole long conversation because I don't even know exactly what I'm trying to say, but I know what I'm trying to say.

Becky Brown: I love that you called, Wayne. I love that you called. Here's the thing: we do know that there are three sides to every story—his, hers, and the truth is somewhere in between. So I love that you are championing for Tony, that it might have been tough.

But here's what I want you to know: we are all responsible for our reactions, our behavior. It's not okay to beat another person, period. I don't care what the relationship is. That's why he got charged with it. There's laws to protect other people. But what I hear you saying is that in your own relationship—and by the way, did you marry the baby mama, or are you guys a couple yet, or what's happening?

Wayne: We're not together anymore. Things went their ways and life happened. But I definitely tried to do everything in my power to make it work, because I didn't ever want to have a broken family. And then when I got with her and I got around that baby, it opened my eyes up and it changed me as a person. Like I used to do a lot of bad things and that kid saved my life. I know Wayne's doing everything in his will and power to make things work.

Becky Brown: Listen, Wayne. I love that you had an impact from that child, but that child's still growing. You have the opportunity to continue to speak into that child's life. You can become the man that God wants you to be, and you will be on a path of healing and wholness as opposed to in reactivity. I would love for you to get connected with some other men who are seeking what God wants for their life to become the man that God wants you to be, Wayne. I love your heart, you're very compassionate, and I'm glad that you've had a change in your life, that you're not the man that you used to be, but we want to call you up to a higher calling that you are going to make an impact in your children's lives.

Alice Benton: Wayne, I believe that our job as parents is to grow into being the calmest person in the room as often as possible, and that is a high standard. I would say it's humanly impossible, but with God's grace and with recovery, we can get close to that.

The Bible verse that tells us to not exasperate our children has to be taken in context with all the other parenting advice that's in the Bible. So we parents have to be so cautious not to go overboard with our children. When you talked about how much disrespect you have tolerated and Tony tolerated, we really shouldn't tolerate disrespect, because if we try to just grin and bear it, if we try not to say anything when we're being disrespected, of course our frustration and anger will build over time and will probably explode.

Disrespect from children, from anybody, it should not be tolerated. It should be addressed in an assertive way and in a way that protects us and protects our home from anybody being disrespected.

There are three main styles of parenting: an authoritarian style is all rules and harshness without much warmth. A permissive style has no rules but a whole lot of warmth. And what research has found is that the middle ground, it's called authoritative, where we have high standards but we meet those standards with a lot of warmth and a lot of love. That helps develop the best children, the most successful and emotionally stable children. So please don't tolerate disrespect. Meet it head-on with grace and truth and with protection.

New Life: I'm glad you brought up that Bible verse, and I hope Tony is still listening, I know Wayne is because he's on the phone with us. But the one about not exasperating your children because we take, you know, Tony, you brought up a couple of Bible verses, but how do we take those two verses that he brought up—"Spare the rod, spoil the child"—and then we take that with "don't exasperate your children"? It's not a contradiction, obviously, but what are we to do? How do we make it all work together?

Alice Benton: I would say ideally when we discipline our children, we do it when we're calm enough to be in control. Because if we try to counteract their bad behavior when we are already in a reactive, upset mode, we're probably going to go over the top and say and do things that we regret later.

Research on spanking—a lot of the world of psychology is pretty opposed to spanking. And so I've wrestled with that Bible verse myself, and I think that in-control, one-time spanking, a spank, not on and on and spanking and spanking, a spank can be used with children that I would say are under 12 years old if a parent has tried other parenting tactics that have not yet worked and they're in complete control and they can discipline their child with love and with grace at the time that it is happening. That may be appropriate. But if there's been a history of physical abuse in the childhood of the parent or within the family, then I would say spanking in that way is probably not going to be safe for that family. There are so many other parenting tools to use like leverage, like rewarding, like consequences. A spanking should be the last resource, in my opinion.

Becky Brown: That particular scripture too, when we talk about spare the rod, the rod when you think about it in context of shepherding, that's the context. It's not necessarily beating, it is directing.

And one of the things that I wanted to say to Wayne was we have to have a plan. What I mean by that is when I say "what kind of man do you want to be?" that's where the plan starts. Then even going to what you were talking about, Alice, with disrespect, sometimes we don't even recognize disrespect because we don't know who we are. We can feel it, but it doesn't feel good, but we don't understand where the bad feelings are and we become enraged and we go back and forth into this big dramatic kind of interaction as opposed to: what kind of person does God call me to be?

How am I fulfilling that call on my life? So we don't get too far into the weeds about these things when we are focused on: what do I need to do to become the person that God wants me to be? It will impact your parenting, it will impact your marriage, it will impact your neighbors and your work life and the people that you love. I just want to encourage everybody who's listening today, if you need help, call us and we will get you to the help that you need. Also seek the Lord in every way and figure out what that calling is on your life. It'll make all the difference in all of your relationships.

New Life: And you can call us because we're going to be in the studio for another hour. 1-800-229-3000 is our number. I see Fred, I see Scott on the phone right now. We'll get to you guys in just a moment, and we'll keep the phone lines open. 1-800-229-3000.

What we do here at New Life is thanks to your generosity. It helps restore broken marriages and families, helps people break free from addiction and find strength in the midst of depression and grief, and grow deeper in faith and spiritual health. You can be part of what God is doing through New Life by calling 1-800-NEW-LIFE or visit NewLife.com or text NLM to 28950. But if you want to talk to Becky and Alice, 1-800-229-3000.

Guest (Male): Thanks so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to NewLife.com to find more information. And thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing, and we're so glad that you're here.