New Life LIVE

New Life: Welcome to the New Life LIVE podcast. We hope to provide help and hope in your life through God's Word, counselors, and psychologists as we answer questions from listeners who call with the challenges of life. Let's go to today's episode.

Brian Perez: If you're stuck in the past or have lost hope for the future, the best time to get back on track is now. Yes, right now. 1-800-229-3000 is the number to call. Let us help you. We are New Life LIVE and I'm your host, Brian Perez. We're in the studio to help as many people as we can, including you or your friends and loved ones. You guys can call for the next two hours to speak with licensed marriage and family therapist, Dr. Jackie MacKarris and clinical psychologist, Dr. Alice Benton, who's got a little something to share with us to get started.

Alice Benton: In fact, Jackie's going to share first.

Jackie MacKarris: What I am sharing about today is growth mindset versus fixed mindset. A lot of times we want to stay just the way we are even though we want our lives to be different. I think I find a lot of times people expect others to do the changing so that their life can get better.

One of the things that I learned when I was a nurse, I had an employer who every time I would say there was a problem, he would say, "Opportunity to grow." It took me a while to catch on, but I'd say, "Oh, we have a problem," and he'd say, "Opportunity to grow." I'd just keep talking, and eventually one day it clicked in. That's the growth mindset.

Growth mindset thrives on challenges. It sees failure as a learning opportunity. I have a t-shirt that's quoting Nelson Mandela that says, "I never lose, either I win or I learn something." That's growth mindset. A fixed mindset views intelligence and talent as static, like what you have is all you get. So they avoid challenges, and they avoid challenges so that they can prevent failure, which also limits their opportunities to grow and learn.

Hiding your deficits doesn't help you to improve. Sometimes when you have that fixed mindset, you think, "Well, this is all I'll ever be able to do," versus when you have a growth mindset, it's like, "Hmm, I want to try something new." I just want to encourage our listeners if they struggle with that fixed mindset where "this is just all it is." I used to say, "I don't play sports because I'm not good at it, and I don't do things that I'm not good at." Well, that was very much a fixed mindset of an emotional avoider. I would just stay stuck in this place and then avoid the emotional pain of being stuck in this place I wasn't happy with. I'm so grateful to be in a place where in growth mindset I'm like, "Okay, well that didn't go the way I wanted to. Let's see what went wrong so that I can learn from it and try something different next time."

Alice Benton: You said hiding deficits holds us back, but it feels so much safer to hide my deficits. We don't want to be judged. We don't want people to see us as a failure or as less than. Really, it's not the other people; it's our own self-talk that tells us that we're less than or not worthy. If you can just switch that self-talk to "I can learn new things, I can try something different, I don't know how to but I'm willing to learn how to," then you have an opportunity to grow.

You can change and expand your worldview. There's a verse that says, "Enlarge my territory." In order to enlarge your territory, you have to have a growth mindset. That first time you're in a room with other people who come out of hiding their deficits and are willing to both move out of their comfort zone, push you, and come alongside you out of yours, you really start to feel the growth opportunity, the excitement, and the freedom that there is in what you're talking about.

Jackie MacKarris: That's why those groups are so important. Life Recovery groups are a great place to learn how to do that in safety.

Brian Perez: The other thing about the fixed mindset is that you always wind up doing the same thing the same way, and we all know what they say: that's the definition of insanity because you're not willing to try something new. Try something new and call us today at New Life LIVE, 1-800-229-3000. Whatever it is you're stuck in, you've tried, you've done different things, or the same thing over and over and it's not helping, call us. We're going to be here for two hours today at 1-800-229-3000.

Is there anyone watching or listening to New Life LIVE right now who doesn't like saving money? Raise your hand. Yeah, I didn't think so. We've got two ways to save money this week. First of all, if you register by this Friday for the April 24th Every Man's Battle weekend in Washington, D.C., you'll get the early bird discount. Men, sign up.

The second way to save some hard-earned cash is the moving sale in the newlife.com store. You'll find great New Life resources at rock bottom prices right now while supplies last. Remember, the more you guys purchase, the less we'll have to take with us to our new location. Now, Dr. Alice, the lifter of our heavy boxes, doesn't mind the manual labor, but we also don't want to wear her out. So come on over and help us move virtually at the newlife.com store.

1-800-229-3000 is our number, and if you can't call us when we're in the studio, you can send us an email or a voicemail. We have all the instructions on how to do that at newlife.com/radio. We prefer to hear the sound of your voice and interact with you, but we understand everyone's schedules are different, so we do offer different ways to get us your question. Here's one from Lindsay, who wrote in.

"Why have I replaced drugs and alcohol with food?" That's Lindsay's question. The backstory is, "I've been in recovery for 11 months now. I work the 12 steps of the Life Recovery program and it helped with my healing process tremendously. The only thing is that in the past 11 months, I have gained 70 pounds and tend to turn to food when bored, anxious, worried, excited, or any of the feelings I used to hide by turning to drugs and alcohol. What is it I'm trying to numb with food, or what am I feeding really? I know it's healthier than using drugs, but I'm just running to food now for that same comfort. Why?" Let's ask Jackie and Alice. What do you guys think?

Jackie MacKarris: First, she said it: comfort. Food is readily accessible and it's socially acceptable. It also, when you're eating sugary, salty, comfort-y kinds of foods, hits the same part of the brain that the drugs and alcohol hit. She's eating when she's bored and when she's sad because she gets the dopamine hit just like she would get if she were doing drugs or if she was drinking.

There's a sense of satisfaction and satiation that comes from that, and it's oftentimes like a false sense of comfort and security because, like she said, what am I running from? What am I trying to hide? Sometimes it's not that you can't find something you're running from or trying to hide, but you're trying to make yourself feel better. Food can be very comforting. For a lot of us, we grew up being given food to settle us down. The baby's crying, give them another bottle. You're in a bad way, you're emotionally distraught about something, they give you a cookie if you'll stop crying. So we've been conditioned to use food to make ourselves feel better.

Brian Perez: Isn't that interesting that those things that were given to us as kids to make us feel better and that we passed on to our kids if they were crying in the grocery store? You would just give them a candy or whatever, but not a good thing. Alice?

Alice Benton: Do you remember that game Whac-A-Mole? The point of the game is to keep hitting down the little things that pop up. Addiction is kind of like that. What comes up, the moles, are the difficulties in life and we all have to figure out how we handle them, especially the ways they dysregulate us. Addiction is just an attempt to regulate how we feel.

In distress, a drug does a great job of regulating us temporarily, of taking us out of that uncomfortable emotional feeling and putting us in a more blissful state, a drowsy state, a state of elation, depending on what drug you use. But if you just keep trying to whack those moles down and you don't look underneath at what's driving the moles up out of the ground and how we deal with them under the ground, that is God's solution, which is relational comfort and living life God's way.

What happens when we start to rely on God in relationship is we find that problems dysregulate us less. The problems still happen, but it's like the promise of we can learn to be content in any situation or God can give us a peace that transcends all understanding. The problem is: how are we dealing with the moles underground? God's answer is: deal with them in my way, the biblical way, and lean on people rather than substances or activities to help you regulate. That's why addiction can slip from one thing to another. It's still a way to soothe, but it's not dealing with the real root of the problem.

Jackie MacKarris: I've even known people to switch to something that seems healthy like exercise, but it becomes an obsession and it's still doing the same thing and not addressing the moles or the problems that are underneath. Sometimes it's relational. There's a problem you have with a person on your job, but you're a really nice person and you don't want people to be upset with you, so you don't ever say anything about being bullied by this person. You just go home and eat, or you just go on your lunch hour, or you have a drawer full of chocolate and when you're upset, you don't even think about it anymore. You're just soothing yourself rather than addressing this difficult relationship you have. Food can comfort where it feels like the conversation can be scary, but there's support to help you be able to do that. In therapy, we sometimes are able to walk people through conversations. We do roleplays so that you can practice having those hard conversations if that's one of the moles that you need to address.

Alice Benton: For Lindsay, it would probably entail identifying what she tends to feel before she goes to food, looking at who she relies on in her life and how honest is she really getting with them, and then what historical pain is still untreated or under-treated, under-resolved. Like Jackie's saying, it usually also has to do with the ability to be assertive with difficult people in her life. So Lindsay, by checking all those other areas, you're getting down to what the real root of the problem is.

Jackie MacKarris: Sometimes we don't know what we're feeling emotionally, but there's a bodily sensation that usually goes along with emotion. I give my clients five questions: What do I feel? Where do I feel it in my body? Why do I feel this way? Have I ever felt this way before as a child? What do I need?

I came up with this one day on my way to get chili cheese fries. I live in Lake Elsinore and I was headed to Orange County, and I merged onto the 91 and I was like, "What are you doing?" So I asked myself, "What are you feeling right now?" because I'm about to drive to Orange County for chili cheese fries. That was the only reason I was driving an hour and a half.

Halfway there, I thought, "What is happening?" Then I asked, "What do you feel?" I felt something fluttery in my stomach, like a nervous stomach or butterflies, and I realized I'm disappointed. I have learned that disappointment to me feels like hunger because I'm emotionally hungering for something that I didn't get, so I'll go get chili cheese fries. So I turned around and I went home and had a conversation about my disappointment rather than going to Orange County. That's really stuck with me because it was the first time I can remember of knowing the feeling in my body had an emotion attached to it and I could name the emotion, and then I could choose to do something different.

Brian Perez: But some people might say it's better to drive an hour and a half for chili cheese fries than for drugs or something.

Jackie MacKarris: Absolutely. However, you're still doing the same thing. It's just food versus alcohol. As Dr. Alice said, the relational aspect is really where our healing is. If you can figure out what's going on, how you got there, and then think, "What do I need?" I always say I'm a recovering emotional avoider, so I'm going to look inside first and see if there's a need I can fulfill. Maybe I need a nap. Maybe I need to hydrate. Maybe I need to go for a walk. Maybe I need to call a friend. Or, if it's not something I can do internally for myself, then I'm going to go relationally and I'm going to talk to a safe other.

Alice Benton: You're pointing out the harm reduction model, which is not a bad thing, and a lot of us need to go through harm reduction. We see at recovery meetings there are a lot of people smoking cigarettes. Well, that's a whole lot better than the destruction of alcohol and drugs. So it's not bad to move from one addiction to a less destructive way of coping, but the ideal is eventually to move to coping through relationship.

Brian Perez: Lindsay, thanks for submitting your question online through newlife.com/radio. You and anybody else who's going through something similar could definitely benefit from our Lose It For Life online course. That begins at the beginning of May. It's a 12-week course, one hour a week. If you've tried diet after diet and still feel stuck, the Lose It For Life course is for you. You'll explore the spiritual, emotional, and physical roots of unhealthy habits and begin the journey to lasting transformation. With the support of a compassionate group and expert guidance, you'll uncover what's eating you and discover a whole new way to live. This isn't just about losing weight; it's about finding freedom.

Alice Benton: Brian, I still use the techniques I learned at a Lose It For Life weekend. I still do the exercises I learned, but especially I still go to relationship when I am struggling with eating or not being willing to move my body enough. So I know the principles of this workshop work.

Brian Perez: 1-800-229-3000 is our number. Here is Janet in Philadelphia, who listens to us on newlife.com. Welcome, Janet, to New Life LIVE.

Janet: Hello everybody.

Alice Benton: We're glad to hear from you again, Janet.

Janet: Well, thank you. There's always something to ask about. You might remember me just because you awarded me MVP, because I was the most panicked something or other, or most valued panicker. I think that was it because of the other calls I've had about being very panicked and distressed about my marriage of 47 years and the struggles, betrayal, and just a whole bunch of mess.

What was suggested is that I should have separated in the very beginning when I first called and I think Becky Brown said, "Well, did you kick him out?" for the betrayal. Then confrontation day was when I found out, and nine months later I found out he's still talking with her and they're coworkers. Another month later I said, "That's it, if you're still doing this," and his lie that he was on was still on. Now we're into November.

Then December, I was like, "I didn't feel like I got full disclosure." I had called this an emotional affair the first time I called in and Alice was like, "Wait, let's go back to that because kissing is an emotionally charged, it's a sexually charged thing." So no emotional affair that includes kissing.

Brian Perez: How can we help you today then?

Janet: I got full disclosure in December. Then we went into marriage counseling for a year starting in February, so we've been in marriage counseling for a year. He's been in individual and I have been for way more. The question is: separation seems necessary. I tried for a week, just a week, and I saw some real results but it's in-house. How do I structure an in-house separation versus if I can find a room to rent at a friend's house or something? What do those separations look like? Obviously, I think the physical separation would be best. Can you walk me through that?

Brian Perez: Janet, just a quick question before then: do you believe he's still in contact with his affair partner?

Janet: Not emotionally. They're coworkers, but she only works there a couple days a week and she works from home.

Brian Perez: Janet, stay on the phone. We'll continue our conversation with you and everyone else who calls in at 1-800-229-3000. If you're new to New Life LIVE, we would definitely love to hear from you. Maybe you're a long-time listener, never-time caller. Well, today is the day for you to call because we want to help you with whatever it is that you're going through. 1-800-229-3000.

New Life: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

Brian Perez: Back to Janet in Philadelphia. What were you going to say, Jackie?

Jackie MacKarris: Janet, my recommendation would be for you to work with your therapist on a therapeutic separation where you guys come to an agreement about some terms, about what is expected and what you're looking for. So there's an agreement that you guys are making. It's not a moving target, it's not based on the look on somebody's face or the tone of somebody's voice, but some things you guys have sat down and decided on together and then set a certain time.

A week seems like not enough. That's like putting a kid on restriction because they didn't do their homework. This is not that. This is far more serious and so it needs a far more serious approach. Generally when I do a therapeutic separation, whether it's in-house or out, I do three to six months. Three months minimum, generally six months, and then we touch bases from that six-month point to see how we do reunification if that's an option.

Alice Benton: That's way more than a week. That might be a scary number, but what we find, Janet, is that true character change takes so long. For your absence to work and truly lead him to motivation, or for you to have revealed to you: is he even motivated enough to do the work to be able to reunite with you? It truly does take that long.

What I'm concerned about is your ability, Janet, to tolerate him being upset. I don't know if you're protecting him and/or protecting yourself. When I discipline my children and they're angry with me for it, I'm a people pleaser and a conflict avoider in recovery. It puts me into a very uncomfortable position to have someone mad at me because of how I've interacted with them and to let them stay mad at me until their heart softens, whereas I just want to go in and fix it so that we're at least happy with each other again.

I want you to think about: how was that with your kids, with your four kids? Were you able to stay in the discomfort because you knew the discipline was right and would work? Because that's the same kind of strength you'll have to apply when you choose separation, to not come back too quickly so that he's not mad at you and everything is okay. In order to tolerate that, Janet, we usually need to figure out what are we so afraid will happen if someone's mad at us and who and how do we seek healthy comfort during that period of ongoing rupture so that we don't go fix it too quickly.

Brian Perez: Janet, stay on the line. 1-800-229-3000 is the number. We've got Doctors Jackie MacKarris and Alice Benton here for the rest of this hour and all of next. We can't wait to speak with you at 1-800-229-3000.

April 14th is the date of our Freedom from Fear and Anxiety webinar. It's perfect timing because it's the day before Tax Day. Becky Brown is presenting this one. It's 90 minutes including 30 minutes of Q&A with a replay available for about a week. You can get all the details by texting the word WEBINAR to 28950, and we'll also send you a free tip sheet delivered right to your fingertips.

Also, the Healing Is A Choice online course begins the first week of May. A little bit ago we were talking about the Lose It For Life online course; another one is called Healing Is A Choice. We've also got the Take Your Life Back course. You'll meet one hour per week for 12 weeks over Zoom. As we say often, you can't change the past but you can choose to heal. This course has you in mind, so sign up at newlife.com.

Alice Benton: One of the things that Steve Arterburn leads you to do in Healing Is A Choice is to make a list of the people you have hurt and then figure out if you can make amends to them. I bullied a classmate in sixth grade, and it was a kid that was just terrorized through all the years we were together, all through high school. I participated in that. As I read that chapter and I asked God who have I hurt, that kid's name came to mind.

I found his contact information. It took me a long time to prepare to do it. I contacted him. It was one of the most frightening and freeing conversations of my life. Then I was able to share the story with my children just the other day as we're talking about: how do we repair a rupture when we hurt someone? If we don't take the steps in Healing Is A Choice, and they're really the steps of recovery and they're the steps in the Bible, then we live with the weight, whether we're conscious of it or not, of the guilt and the regret of the ways we've hurt other people, the ways they have hurt us. Healing Is A Choice gives such a simple structured way to start cleaning up your side of the street.

Brian Perez: So how far should we take that when it comes to making amends with people from the past? Who do you make amends with? I get it if the Lord put it on your heart, maybe that's a good indication that you should, but what if the conversation goes poorly? How did that conversation go?

Alice Benton: He knew who I was, my classmate. He did not remember the incident I brought up, but he did talk about how he was so mistreated by almost everyone at that school. He thanked me. He was grateful for it. I don't know what else it did, but I know it must have planted a seed for him that there should have been hundreds of us calling him to apologize. It took me 15 years or more to call him to do that. I certainly know what it did for me, and I know the potential of what God wanted it to do for him.

So how far back do we go? I think we go as far back as we can. But you're right, we have to suss out each situation because there are times that it would be hurtful to make amends. So there were ex-boyfriends that I knew I had harmed, but if I were to contact them, it would put my marriage at risk and it would put the ex-boyfriends' marriages at risk. My amends to them will be prayer and fasting and it won't be me contacting them. It's making amends, but really going over it with a third party, with a counselor usually or with a sponsor, to figure out is this right, appropriate, and helpful or do I need to make amends to someone else but out of honor and respect for the person that I hurt. One example might be that women who have had an abortion, or the men involved in that abortion, they might go serve other women, serve at an abortion clinic, standing outside offering prayer, that sort of thing. They can't make amends directly to the person they have hurt and so they do it to somebody else but in a similar category.

Jackie MacKarris: When we are making amends and going through those steps, that we are mindful of what it might be like for the other person so that we keep—yes, we're coming and we're asking for forgiveness, we're owning our stuff and taking responsibility for our behavior, but keep in mind that they're going to have an experience of it too. Sometimes we go to people to apologize in order to make ourselves feel better and, yes, that is something that comes out of it, but if the whole focus is on that and their reaction isn't what we're looking for, then we might double down and end up doing more harm. I just think we have to be diligent about that as well, doing your work and being a part of this class is a way to do that.

Brian Perez: That's a good point. Alice, what would have happened were you ready for if this classmate had yelled back at you like, "Oh yeah, I remember you, you made my life miserable!" and just went off for 15 minutes straight?

Jackie MacKarris: I watched a video just yesterday and it was of somebody passing someone else and stopping and being like, "You bullied me!" and the person was like, "No I didn't!" and, "Yes you did!" I've actually been with my sister in Walmart where that's happened, and she—I can't imagine her bullying anybody, she's the most easygoing person I know, so she was shocked. But the girl that was working at Walmart was sure it was her.

Alice Benton: I would say in answer to your question, I'm grateful he didn't erupt in anger because anger in someone else is one of the most difficult interactions for me to handle. I'm much better at it now than I was those years ago that I took this step. I was kind of a baby in my recovery work even though I'd finished my education and I was practicing. At the time I think it would have been really difficult for me to handle, but because I'm a people pleaser, I can sit, grin, and bear it and not fight back, which would have been good in the moment but that's not good long-term or helpful long-term.

Brian Perez: Janet and anyone else who wants to call in, 1-800-229-3000. We've got Jan coming up in just a little bit and Sarah and everyone else who wants to call in. The phone lines are open for the next hour plus. Call in, speak with Doctors Jackie MacKarris and Alice Benton at 1-800-229-3000.

New Life: To find out more information about New Life or to order any of the resources mentioned on today's program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Now back to New Life LIVE.

Brian Perez: You know it's true, everything we do is because of you. Oh wait, I'm Brian Perez, not Bryan Adams. But it is true, it's because of your financial support that we can continue to help people. Where do people turn when they're met with situations like this? Many turn to substance abuse, food, or inappropriate relationships to take some of the edge off. But we want people to turn to Jesus. So New Life doesn't want to turn people away when they call. Please help us as we help people who are really going through it, whatever their "it" might be. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE to make a donation or text NLM to 28950 or become a monthly 99-for-the-1 partner at newlife.com/99for1. Thank you for your generosity, which truly changes lives.

Jan in Seattle, listening on newlife.com, welcome to New Life LIVE.

Jan: Oh, you're quite welcome and thanks for being there. You're my favorite people.

Brian Perez: Oh, thank you. How can we help?

Jan: I am a little bit discombobulated. I am calling because of complicated grief with having lost so many close relatives: three grandchildren and three daughters within five years. So I just wonder if I'm not actually talking myself into being ill. Is that possible? I had my first EMDR meeting, counsel, and I've been counseling for a few months with just a psychological counselor.

Jackie MacKarris: When you said you're wondering if you're talking yourself into it, do you feel like since you've been in therapy and talking about the grief that you're feeling worse?

Jan: I find that my brain is malfunctioning in some way. Like I forget things that I've never forgotten before. It's just feeling discombobulated, that's all I can say.

Jackie MacKarris: And how have things been going with your therapist?

Jan: The EMDR was horrible in that I was not even remembering how to use my iPhone. That's probably the most disconcerting thing that's happening is I'm very techie. I work many devices. I've always been that way for 19 or earlier years, 50 years now. It is just like trying to carry on a conversation right now; my mind is not clear. I'm wondering what's going on.

Alice Benton: Jan, there are a couple different possibilities that it would be good for you to explore. EMDR is a fantastic form of therapy and I highly recommend it. I also know it to be a very safe form of therapy. So I would question whether or not attempting an EMDR session is what has led to you not knowing how to use your phone, which of course would be frightening. EMDR is also not a fit for everyone, and it just sinks well with some people and others really struggle with it. So I would have you of course talk to your EMDR clinician about your worries and decide whether or not it's worthwhile to still try a couple more sessions because it can take a few attempts at eye movement desensitization and reprocessing for it to really work and for you to let your brain flow with the process. But forgetfulness and feeling a fogginess, that can be just a part of grief. It can be part of trauma, and the level of grief you've been through sounds traumatic, and it is also a symptom of depression. So I wouldn't stand with certainty that it's because of EMDR that's happening, but rather I'd get a full physical done. I'd have blood work done. I would do some memory testing and talk with your clinician about whether or not to continue EMDR.

Jackie MacKarris: I agree with everything Dr. Alice said. I might even ask my primary care doctor to give me a referral to see a neurologist. That way you're just covering all the bases and making sure that this isn't happening because of a medical issue and these things could have just all happened at the same time. Also, looking at all the other aspects, your complicated grief brings about fatigue and mental fog. It can bring about depression symptoms. All of those things can make you more confused. And in EMDR, we're opening up to processing and I wonder if you opened up and now your mind is full of thoughts, and so it's hard to find the word, it's hard to slow down and focus on something because there's just so much going on in your mind now. As Dr. Alice said, I would take that back to your clinician and talk that through and decide what the next steps should be in terms of EMDR. I agree, I think it's a very safe modality and incredibly helpful, and is it possible this could be a part of it for you? Absolutely, anything's possible, but it's also just as likely that it's something else going on. So check the other things as well.

Jan: Like too much sugar?

Jackie MacKarris: I would say having a full physical because as we get older, things change in our body and things change in our mind. If you have a small TIA, a small stroke, oftentimes we don't even know that that happened until something bigger happens. Sometimes people are having problems in their body and they chalk it up to stress, and later on they find out it was something else going on and it got worse. So if you're doing regular physicals, then you have a baseline. There's blood work that's being done annually, maybe even X-rays of different sorts or CAT scans of different sorts, or ultrasounds, but there's a baseline. So they can check and see if there's been a change.

Alice Benton: It's also okay, Jan, to slow down therapy, which might sound counterintuitive, but when people's pain is too raw, sometimes they need to spend many sessions, months, or even years being built up to the point where they can then address the pain. So also tell your clinician if it feels like it's going too fast and you need it slowed down. We clinicians need feedback from our clients about whether or not we're pushing too hard or not hard enough. So you've got some good discussions to have with your therapist.

Brian Perez: Jan, thanks for calling in today. You know what? Stay on the phone. We're going to send you a registration to our grief webinar, which is coming up this summer. That's still a few months away, so we also encourage you to get the Life Recovery Workbook for Grief. It's available in the newlife.com store.

Whatever you are facing, you don't have to figure it out alone. New Life's Christian counselors and coaches can help you face addiction, anxiety, marriage struggles, and more with biblical professional support. You can get started at newlife.com or call us here in the studio. Doctors Alice and Jackie truly want to help you. 1-800-229-3000 is our number. And then join us tomorrow for more advice and discussion on catastrophic loneliness, dysfunctional families, gaslighting, and so much more. But we're going to be in the studio for the next hour to help you with whatever it is you're facing.

New Life: Thanks so much for listening. We hope something you heard will help you live in freedom today. If this content was helpful for you, we would love it if you would take a minute, leave a review, post about it, and rate it. Remember, we have resources and workshops online for you as you continue your journey. Go to newlife.com to find out more information. And thank you for being part of the New Life community. We know that God desires all of us to live a life of wholeness and healing, and we're so glad that you're here.